☼ joy2730: withdrawing from citalopram, quetiapine

Hi Joy

Of course it is always good to review our past experiences but don't be too hard on yourself.

You say it all with ' I have spent 3 years getting from 30mgs to 18mgs  but have learnt a lot'. 

That is what we are still doing everyday - learning.  You have done and are still doing amazingly well. 

Flowers xxx

Thank you Flowers, you have such a balanced view of life.

Hope this quick post finds you well, or as well as you can be when you are trying to shed a stimulating drug that didn't agree with you.

I am very well today, slept brilliantly.  So far I have had no reoccurrences of the severe symptoms I had at the leisure centre the other day.  I am now thinking that the exercise/sauna had brought them on in greater severity for about 10 minutes, and then re-stabilised?  When they occurred I was worried it was the start of a very bad wave, a tsunami in fact, but this turned out not to be the case at all.  Within 1/2 hour I was back to being fine.  I am going into extra detail in case it helps anyone else.

One thing that struck me when reading all my posts yesterday was that peer support really does help, and that is site is supportive when things go 'wrong' for its members, and accepts people are 'where they are' for many different reasons.

Hope your visitors have not been too wearying

Your 'grateful for your input always' internet friend, Joy

Doing well on 18 mg.

Forgot to describe my very weird dream last night - I slept really well, but at some time in the night I dreamed my fingers were in great pain and shrinking, and were covered in gout and had great big swollen arthritic joints, but yet were tiny and shrunken at the same time.  There was also an aqua green scab over some of the joints, which would bubble, burst and have puss (dark blue) oozing out.

I woke up to find my fingers tingling and stiff, but otherwise well.

Is this a middle of the night withdrawal symptom caused by my brain trying to tell me my fingers were tingling?

It made for an interesting night!

I know people can have weird dreams/nightmares when starting SSRI's, so the same could be happening when reducing.

As i reflect back i recall having the most terrifying nightmares both on start up and especially when trying to get off paxil.

Nightmares are common in wdl.

Update - no nightmares last night, slept well.

Got up at 6 am, and out of the house at 6.30 am, to go spinning, sauna and then swimming, then on to work for 10.00 am.  I am documenting this because when I took loads of meds years ago, I was unable to get up for 10 am let alone do anything, and it is such a welcome change for me.

I also think having dropped from 20 mg to 18 mg I have a little more energy.  This is important to me as I have 2 main reasons for wanting to take a lower dose of citalopram and that is my weight problems plus my lethargy, which to be honest, is a posh way of saying lazy.

I do think over the years on so many meds, I have been lazy in many respects, my own son has periodically in the past described me as lazy, and to be honest, I think he has meant lethargic.  Now I am beginning to see all my drugs have not helped.

I can honestly say I have no withdrawal symptoms today, I now know that doesn't mean that much in that withdrawal and the reinstating of my natural neurons will be taking place in the 'deep background' even though I am without symptoms.  In fact, there is probably a lot going on in my serotonin systems in my body and my brain even though I am not aware of it.  I hadn't realised this before, on my previous attempts to withdraw.  I took the lack of symptoms as a signal to reduce dose again, which it is not.  This is a fundamental principal of my life now and I have changed my way of thinking completely.

Doing nothing is a hard concept for me to grasp because I am the type of person who likes to do something towards a goal, it is a bit like dieting, eating less is the key.  Doing less, doing nothing can be hard to accept, but it is easier in a way surely?

Thank you Bubble.

Had a brilliant night's sleep last night, ie head touched the pillow and then nothing, only woke to alarm - something my exercise is definitely helping with.  My sleep was very deep and refreshing, no nightmares or dreams.

Exercising is not really helping my weight, but is helping my sleep.  It seems to give a deeper level of relaxation at a very physical level.  Some aspects of exercising remind me of a panic attack, but not in a disturbing way - I guess exercising may help with panic attacks as well as sleep.

I will have to reduce my food intake for the weight control - this is another learning curve for me, as it is something I have never been very successful at doing.  Basically, I don't know if my weight gain is from over eating, comfort eating, poor food choices or taking citalopram and it making me more hungry and possibly altering of the hormones involved in weight control.  Probably all of them together, but time will reveal more.  I don't want to be slim or skinny, just tidier and a stone less will do - I have lost some but not enough by a long way.

Today I have no withdrawal symptoms whatsoever.  It was interesting when I read all of my story through so far, to note how many times I typed 'no withdrawal symptoms', so the whole journey so far, has not been too bad at all, but when it has become bad I have not stuck it out, and when it became bad it was very bad.

I am taking the fish oil, which I am taking at the maximum dose on the bottle, 3 capsules, and have not had any brain zaps.  I read somewhere on this site that fish oil can really help with brain zaps, but of course we can't really know.  However, in my other attempts at withdrawing I had brain zaps.

I have been wondering if the individuals on this site who really struggle with sleep issues, have tried exercising.  However, I recognise that it requires motivation, which individuals can be low on when struggling with various issues.  I don't actually enjoy it myself, but afterwards I feel so much better and sleep so much better that I seem to be committing to it.

I am going to be honest about my food now.  This is how bad my food choices are.  I went out and about with my nearest and dearest family the other day.  I didn't eat breakfast, had fish and chips for lunch and mushy peas, nibbled at my husband's left over chips, and had walnut cake for my tea.  I know what I should have eaten, but didn't.  I suppose all my life I have eaten badly, but now due to age and a life time of psychiatric meds, and citalopram of late, it has become much more of a problem and I am having to forge new attitudes to food.  I was actually underweight when I was young and suffering from depression, I used to struggle to eat enough.  Of course, at 58 now my metabolism will have slowed too and life is generally much more sedentary for everyone, but especially me.

Thanks Andy for your comments about exercise.  I think I am one of the lucky ones so far in that exercise is appearing to help.  However, I can see that if withdrawal symptoms really set in, it would be impossible to do, and that it could be activating, and may even increase panic and anxiety.  I suppose it can be a narrow margin for therapy versus self-torture.

Today, I am again absolutely fine.  I sleep very well again, no nightmares or even dreams that I can remember, felt a little hot when waking up and have had one or two stabs in the sole of my left foot.  These are well known withdrawal symptoms in me, but provide me with some reassurance that progress is being made.

I am not going anywhere with dosage reductions for ages.  My lethargy has had the edge taken off it, and I feel more hopeful and positive in general.  I feel like I now have a tiny tiny amount of control over my citalopram.

The future is not the present, I don't know how this will pan out at all, but the present feels sweet and I think the present is a good place to live.

When I first joined this site, I didn't really believe all the posts about going slow, being patient, keeping dosages steady, reinstating just same amounts, I felt it wasn't necessary for me to be so careful, that I was different, and could do it more quickly.  Such thoughts were my undoing.  I have information gathered and moderated my thinking enormously. 

I strongly suspect I will be one of those people who can't get completely off citalopram, but I can live with that as the improvement in the quality of my life from 20 mg to 18 is so marked and positive.

Take care everyone.  We all arrive at this site by many different routes, and don't really know other's stories, but the sharing of thoughts can be so useful.. 

I tend to use Saturdays for general wider reading.  This is what I have learnt today.

Tardive - late - symptoms can occur such as tardive dysthymia (persistent depression), tardive dyskinesia  (jerky muscles from face etc) and tardive akathisia  (not being able to keep still).  Well over my years I have had my fair share of these and thought they were, on the whole, side effects of the drugs, but not withdrawal symptoms. 

So, some of my suffering may well have been withdrawal from the swapping of drugs without any tapering.

Of course, it is too complex to tease out the true causes.  Oh dear.

The thought of getting off SSRIs and then perhaps, months later, having some of these symptoms as a result of withdrawal is horrendous.  I guess this is the meaning of 'protracted withdrawal state'.  It is awful that the reward for getting off can be poor health rather than good health.  Equally, I have been reading that women are more prone to this than mean, and that older women more at risk than younger.

I refuse to be too upset by this, and knowing it can happen, has strengthened my resolve to be very careful.

Life is continuing to be good at 18 mg.  Brilliant sleep.  Importantly for me I weighed myself this morning and now weigh 1 lb less so I am now 13 st 9 lbs, grossly overweight but better than I used to be at 14 st 10 llbs.  And one day last week I ate fish and chips and walnut cake.

I am watching my weight carefully as I seem to have had weight issues as long as I have taken antidepressants.  Some have been worse than others for me.  I always felt citalopram was kinder to my weight, but before I started out on ADs 9 st 7 llbs was my normal weight before depression made me loose weight.

The killer AD for me re appetite/weight issues was mirtazapine, which made me so hungry I could not wait for the food to cook in the oven.  Each bite of food, no more how much I ate, failed to satisfy my gross appetite.  I put on so much weight that I went quickly through sizes of tights and my food bill was huge.  I was sitting in a funeral one day when there was a loud pinging noise and my thighs had suddenly got bigger and my tights couldn't stretch any further.  I stopped it cold turkey, but had only been on it for about 4 weeks and only remember dizziness as a withdrawal symptom.

Weight gain seems to be one of the problems that cause individuals to withdraw from ADs.  I had a great improvement in my weight at 14 mg citalopram, I looked so much better.  I am hoping I can get down to that point, and then maybe stay there indefinitely.  I really do resent looking both apple and pear shaped at the same time, and looking as if I don't know how to look after myself and looking as if I am not intelligent enough to control my weight, and looking as if I am a total comfort eater with a great deal of misery in my life.

Truth is, I feel reasonably well sorted in most respects, and this extra weight, if caused by ADs is painting a poor picture of me.  It may of course not be the ADs at all, and if that is the case I need to find that out too.

I am going into detail in case it helps others and to provide a record for myself.

Hi all

I am still doing well on 18 mg.  I tend to have a runny nose on a morning and a sweaty face - I have had both these previously when trying to withdraw so these are clearly my particular symptoms.  Other than that and the odd bout of feeling hot when I go to bed on a night, I am good to go.

My spinning classes are really helping me, in my opinion only though, it is impossible to really know.

I am sleeping really well and feel stable in mood and bright - I used to get a runny nose when I withdrew from dothiepin and used to take antihistamines to control it, but as antihistamines may mess up the withdrawal, I am not going to take them this time.

I never did get off the dothiepin, but I got it really low, and then swapped to citalopram.

I am catching up after having visitors here which tired me out but was very enjoyable.

Good to see you are doing well Joy.

Heather xxx

Doing well still.  Runny nose again this morning and sweaty face, standard for me in withdrawal, slept well, mood good, weight down by a 1 lb - now weigh 13 stone 9 lbs - a year ago I weighed 14 stone 10 lbs.

I have always been concerned that citalopram was contributing to my weight problems, so I am on two journeys really, one for the citalopram and one for my weight, but of course they overlap too.

I think the fish oils I am taking may be helping.  When I went to bed last night, I had one or two very mild brain zaps, but they were very mild.

Take care everyone, if it helps anyone else, I am doing better by taking things very slowly.

Hi Joy,

I've read you whole thread today. It was like a book I couldn't put down! I really appreciate how honest you are, and it is incredibly helpful to have it all recorded here, for yourself and others.

I really agree with how you feel on the weight issue too - like it's giving a bad impression of where you are at emotionally/ psychologically. I feel that too - I feel pretty good but have gained a whopping 40 lbs in the last three years on Citalopram and nothing I do seems to make a difference.

I'll be following you to see how this story turns out!

Tikki

Thank you Tikki

Had a brilliant night's sleep last night - one bad dream rather than a nightmare, the details of which I can't immediately recall.  We are much more likely to have bad dreams and/or nightmares when stressed in any way, and I think with citalopram withdrawal both brain and body are stressed.  However, I also think that actually removing bits of the drug from the neurons causes strange dreams in itself, so there are 2 factors at play there.  I remembered thinking in my sleep 'this is the citalopram withdrawal' doing this.

As I am sleeping well at the moment I am trying to go to bed early and making the most of it.

I looked at my poor bottom and hips this morning before getting on the scales and actually felt sorry for my own body - 'look what citalopram has done to you, you poor thing' was exactly what I thought.

I don't want to be slim, I feel a little extra weight gives me some authority in a way, but I don't want to be this big and I certainly don't want Type 2 diabetes settling in or a heart attack, stroke or high blood pressure.

So this morning I took 18 mg minus one of my drops.  I like doing the drops, it is like an ultra micro taper, and makes me feel I am getting somewhere with my problem.  Also I am about to have 11 days off work, to go to Tenerife with my family and it doesn't matter if I feel a bit off it with them. 

A runny nose again this morning.

I think the apathy I suffer from citalopram really stops me doing some things, and makes me put off doing others.  I never neglect my work or my daughter and grandchild, but I do neglect myself a bit.

I don't manicure my nails like I used to, or my toe nails, or look after my hard skin on my feet like I should.  It is the little things I am not doing, and I feel lazy in this respect - this I feel is the citalopram and not me.  I think citalopram adversely affects my motivation.

I thought very fleetingly this morning of dropping to 17.5 mg but talked myself out of it - my brain needs more time to reshape itself, to grown new neurons back and establish new patterns.

I have been reading that individuals who suffer withdrawal symptoms are the ones whose brains have affected the most to the presence of the drug and have the most neuroplastic of brains.  This suggests that these brains may be able to readapt back to their original default factory setting.  I say MAY deliberately because from what I am reading there is no real way of knowing.

So when I have had severe symptoms before on reducing citalopram this may have been because I reduced too quickly for my own to adapt to the changes or it may have been because my brain will never be able to adapt back to its factory settlings due to long use of antidepressants and other psychiatric drugs, my age, 58 and my gender, female.  That is for the future, today is good, today is fine.  I do have a basic weak faith, today God is looking after me.

Thanks Bubble, you are completely correct and very astute in your observations.  I am repeating a pattern, and going down a road I have been down before.

Holding is such hard work.  I promise to myself and SA that I will hold at 18mg less a drop for 30 days and not do anything before then, if then.  I know even 30 days isn't long in the world of withdrawing from antidepressants either.  It has taken me since Jan 17 to now, end of May to move from 20 mg to 18mg minus a drop, and that has been entirely comfortable, that may be the rate at which I have to stick with, or even slower if I am lucky enough to get to the lower dosages.

I welcome your observations, I am going to put 30 days from now in my diary.  I live by my diary so that should work well for me.

It is a strange thing, I know what I should be doing - slow and holding for a long time, but I also want to press on.  Doing nothing is the key and I find that so hard. I know others too, I keep reading it on this site.

Yes, it is so good to point that out to me and thanks, if it saves an unexpected crash that is so worth it.

I find it hard to grasp that although feeling well the build up to a crash is happening while I feel well.  It is the delay in symptoms that confuses me and urges me to press on. 

Once again, thanks Bubble  Joy

Things are changing for me.

The runny nose thing didn't happen this morning, instead little stab pains in my wrists, knees and back.  Did some Pilates type exercises, which then made me feel a bit sick.  Also have had some dizziness when walking about.  But all very mild.

Symptoms are like when I was really ill at the leisure centre the other week but a lot more mild.

Historically I would go back to 20 mg citalopram now because I am a coward and don't like symptoms, but my mental health is so good and my sleep so good, and my appetite more normal so I am sticking this through.  I have also had fleeting feelings of total panic and pricking of adrenaline in my body with the panic.

Oddly, I have been much tidier in my kitchen activities this morning, not taking as much citalopram is turning me into a less messy person.  I am seeking order and organisation now, whereas previously lived in chaos.  This is a significant change in  my mindset and I like it.

The scales were kind to me this morning.

I am going to post again tonight to say how the rest of the day went.

I forgot to post last night - but the rest of the day and night went really well.  So the wave only really lasted an hour, I am so pleased.  Today, Monday, I again feel really well, all I have today is a slight dull headache.

Have been trying clothes on ahead of my holiday in Tenerife, I can see how I have bulged outwards a lot, I really do need to get the citalopram down a little to see if it will help.  I am continuing to really try with my food.

The body I am walking around in is not me at all, yes to be overweight is, but not this overweight, there is a limit.  I think the weight I have lost of late is visceral fat and so isn't affecting how my clothes fit.

Despite my concerns about my weight I am sticking at 18mg minus a drop.  The risks of dropping any further at present are too high.

My brain is definitely getting sharper.  I had some memories from way back return to me last night.  I am going to describe one.  I was in hospital about 17 years ago, circa 2000, (the last time I was in hospital) with a deep depression and many meds changes.  There was a registrar psychiatrist who had just joined the team, and I loathed everything about her.  She advocated a natural approach to depression rather than meds, by natural I mean waiting it out and caring for yourself.  She said she didn't believe in medication for depression.  She explained she had come from a poor country where antidepressants could not be afforded, and placebo drugs were used and people still became well. 

At the time I was seeking the perfect drug to make me feel better, and of course, there is no such drug, and in the merry go round of trial and after trial of different pills I just became worse and worse.

This doctor said to me 'If you stop taking antidepressants you will become the person you were always meant to be'.  I thought she was talking rubbish because, at the time, I had bought into the chemical imbalance theory in a big way.  I remember thinking. 'Lady, if you are to work in the UK you are going to have to change your thinking'.  Now, I can see the sense she was talking. 

So, all these years later, her words have come back to me.

Hi Joy

Glad things are going well and that you are taking it slowly when symptoms are showing albeit mildly.

I too struggle with my weight being on Cit but have managed to get some off recently doing Slimming World online. 

Flowers xxx

Good for you Flowers, I blame citalopram but I eat badly, and a lot of it usually, so there are many different factors.  When I come home from my live-in work I usually have a few large meals, and, for the first time ever I have returned home today and continued my diet.

I think I have an overeating disorder inside me as well as citalopram!

I would like to be able to control my weight while still taking citalopram, in case I end up taking citalopram big time.

Take care, Joy

Yes it is a battle - I just love all the wrong foods but always feel better in myself when I eat healthily. I am my own worst enemy sometimes but have managed to get my cholesterol down to acceptable levels so am pleased with that.

Have a nice evening.

Flowers xxx

Another good day no real withdrawal symptoms at all. A good sleep and up early for spinning Pilates tonight. This exercise is really helping me but I know it doesn't help everyone.

Checked my weight and it is stable.

 

Hi anyone reading, I have found this very simple guide to self soothing, self soothing is something new to me, but I find it interesting now as I have had a light bulb moment in that I self soothe by eating chocolate, chips, cake, cream cake, cheese (all the c's).  It is a 'the penny has dropped moment.  I think I also self soothe by buying toiletries and makeup.  I think I have been so over drugged over the years, and I don't include citalopram in that, I mean the lithium combined with sodium valproate and antidepressants, especially dothiepin, that I have never really thought about any of these things at all.  Oh well, better late than never.

 

Here are some examples of how to self-soothe through each of the senses:

1. Sight: Go to a pretty spot in nature or a local park. ...
2. Sound: Listen to calming music. ...
3. Smell: Light a scented candle. ...
4. Touch: Take a warm bath or shower. ...
5. Taste: Sip herbal tea, such as chamomile. ...
6. Kinesthetic: Rock in a rocking chair.

 

You could be talking about me Joy. I comfort myself with a lot of bad food and stuff I don't need when the simple things in life like you have listed will do just as well.

Will light a citronella candle tonight. They are really to keep the mosquitoes away and are badly needed at the moment but will be relaxing too.

Flowers xxx

Hi everyone

I am about to set off on a 3 generation family holiday in Tenerife, but I will post from my phone.

I have felt no change in my mood at all until today when I have felt a little less bubbly, but I slept well last night.

I also feel significantly physically tired today as well as mentally tired, but I have been exercising a lot of late.  I do feel physically drained as well, but I suppose that the consequence of trying to loose weight.

However, my current reading says that tiredness is a withdrawal symptom, it is like 'crashing'. 

So it is:  slightly lower mood, and physically tired.

Joy

The holiday will do you good Joy. I am sure you will perk up again when you have been there a couple of days and start to relax.

Have a safe journey and wonderful time.

Flowers xxx

You were right Flowers I was just tired with all the packing and gym going. Several days into my holiday and I am doing really well. Esme my grand daughter daughter Heather and son in law are having a great time. Esme is such an easy baby. My withdrawal symptoms are nil. My appetite is normal and my sleep perfect.

I look so much better in my clothes than last time I was here 6 months ago.

I have been reading K r a mmers book Listening to Prozac and it is clear that everyone knew right from the start using SSRIS was unknown territory but society really wanted a solution. I remember those times I was on do the pin and suffered many side effects and asked to go on Prozac but noone would take the risk of swapping me over.

Now I am on a completely different place. To be fair to the doctors they did try hard for me and I was very very ill.

I am a survivor of life as well as antidepressants.

Hopefully all this sin and relaxation is working its magic on my neurons regrouping themselves.

You were right Flowers I was just tired with all the packing and gym going. Several days into my holiday and I am doing really well. Esme my grand daughter daughter Heather and son in law are having a great time. Esme is such an easy baby. My withdrawal symptoms are nil. My appetite is normal and my sleep perfect.

 

I look so much better in my clothes than last time I was here 6 months ago.

 

I have been reading K r a mmers book Listening to Prozac and it is clear that everyone knew right from the start using SSRIS was unknown territory but society really wanted a solution. I remember those times I was on do the pin and suffered many side effects and asked to go on Prozac but noone would take the risk of swapping me over.

 

Now I am on a completely different place. To be fair to the doctors they did try hard for me and I was very very ill.

 

I am a survivor of life as well as antidepressants.

 

Hopefully all this sin and relaxation is working its magic on my neurons regrouping themselves.

Hope you meant 'sun and relaxation'! lol! Glad you are feeling well and enjoying your hols. 

Take care.

Flowers xxx

Yes I meant sun - perhaps that was a Freudian slip or a mobile slip!

The first person Kramer treated with Prozac was so into housework she couldn't find time to take a promotion at work. Prozac stopped her being too fussy. Cit has made me lazy and untidy in the house but now I have reduced b the dose only a little I am already getting the urge to be more tidy.

Joy. I do hope you enjoy your holiday. I love your examples of how to self-soothe through each of the senses. It's great that you are seeking and finding new ways of doing that. This is a process and each step is ultimately leading towards health and happiness long term.

Thanks AliG

I am going to read about self destructive behaviours that people undertake in an attempt to self sooth when I have read a bit more.