The Windows and Waves Pattern of Stabilization

On 6/2/2020 at 8:25 PM, LiferButOK said:

But I NEVER imagined that I should/could gently expect and accept unpleasant feelings, with the faith that they were harmless and would pass.  Instead I freaked out, thinking that discomfort should be medically addressed, because it meant I was ill.  That was an incorrect thought.  The body is just doing its best to adapt to things.  What is it informing me about??  I need to calm down and listen.  I also need to remember that I like playing in waves at the beach, even when they sometimes hit me in the face or knock me down.

Thank you LiferButOK. You got to the heart of my current struggle here. Plus I am going to check your link on allostatic load (and thanks to Altostrata).

All of the information posted here is helping me go through withdrawal easier. A can confirm that there it the wave /window pattern but I am very confused about withdrawal normal baseline. April 1st 2019 I quit 20 MG Paxil in 3 months taper after taking it for 15 months. 90 percent of symptoms posted here on this site appeared. They were subsiding with time, more of them went away, some stayed. I was hit hard by the 10 month wave which happened in February 2020. It also passed. But what worries me the most that 3 weeks ago I received some bad news which threw me completely off balance. Immidietly after that my sleep deteriorated and in the following  days I began feeling even worst, the way I was feeling in the begging 13 months ago, worst that the 10 month wave - waking up in fear 5 am, lost my appetite, feeling anxious, lost and in despair. I am having mild nausea and sweaty palms and feet, fatigue is also present. These last 3 symptoms were not present in my withdrawal till now. I was wondering if it is possible to get such a dip in withdrawal normal baseline after experiencing pretty descent progress ( frankly said, I was thinking about writing a success story) and have have new symptoms despite being for more than a year off Paxil ? 

Hi all,

About 18 months have been going through this and have been slowly getting better. Still getting waves but they seemed to be milder and 3 to 5 days long followed by decent windows/baseline which are slowly getting better.

However have been hit with a really horrible wave that is worse I’ve had in months and months. Probably equal to a wave I I had about a year ago. Worse part is the symptoms get so bad I can’t sleep at all because of them yet still have to function. 
 

Just need to be told that this is normal and not to stress about it. Nothing out of the ordinary has happened. Get concerned as the general idea is waves get milder and milder not with big waves out of nowhere.

Thanks

I had a pretty rough wave the last two weeks, with a lot of concentration difficulty, anxiety and some suicidal thoughts. Part of it was feeling trapped by work and I'm taking time off starting tomorrow. 

I wanted to post here because following the wave this week I've been having some really clear windows. They vary through the day and I've still had symptoms at times, but when I'm at my best I've had moments where I feel 100% well. I'm in the moment, my brain is awake and my thinking is more expansive. It's like my brain is heeled. Has anyone towards the end of their withdrawal experience had windows that just felt too overwhelming? If you took someone and put them in a coma for 20 years, then woke them up, how would they react? Does anyone feel like the waves happen because we're having trouble accepting the full reality given to us in a window?

I used to have waves and windows that were very easy to define. Waves lasted for a week or 2. Windows were shorter and I was full of energy like I was on something. Any dr would say I was bipolar. In a wave I was dying, in a window I felt so creative and motivated. 

Lately it is not so easy to define what is when. Waves are much shorter. I hope this is a good sign.

@Katy398 Thanks, that's helpful

My  waves and windows experience is different from that of many other members, though perhaps not rare. I'm at the tail end of my taper from Prozac, which I've been on following a bad five months or so of withdrawal from both Effexor and Wellbutrin (after my psych took me off in just 3 weeks). I did not really have waves and windows from that WD, just a gradually lessening of anxiety, crying, diarrhea, blurry vision, and other symptoms. The brain rebuilding has, however, continued as I have tapered over the past 7 months from the Prozac. For me the main symptoms are heavy derealization all the time, plus blurry vision, and on-and-off anxiety (light to moderate) throughout the day. I just went to the grocery store to shop (with mask on) and felt, as I have for these past several months, as though I'm walking up and down the aisles in a dream, a kind of invisible barrier erected between me and the world "out there." The blurry vision also continues, which aggravates the sensation of being disconnected. The derealization does not come and go in waves and windows but has stayed pretty much the same for several months now, maybe somewhat worse now that I'm down to the last few mgs. of liquid Prozac. I do all sorts of things to try to limit my frustration and discouragement. I''m grateful that I don't have other weird symptoms and nor any insomnia.

23 minutes ago, Amira123 said:

Hello @Edmunds , i can reassure you that your pattern of healing is not uncommon, me and other members here experience the same pattern, no real window where all of the symptoms dissappear, but a very slow and gradual process of symptoms becoming less intense as more time pass

I agree totally! 

Definitely sounds like the prozac poison process.

Went through the same thing. Things will very slowly fade back into focus.

Best to look at where you were, say, a month or 6 weeks ago rather than look at it on a weekly basis.

Then you’ll be able to see the progress.

You WILL be over this eventually.

And each day you are a day closer to healing🙂

Be encouraged 

Adrienne🙂

Question: I read now that even after tapering for some period of time and its going very well, a withdrawl wave can still come even only after some months, by surprise out of the blue, and be very hard. Can it happen also when your tapering before the wave was very slow and careful (say 1%-1.5% per week)?

Because if the answer is yes its very scary. its says that no matter how slow i reduce and how well its going (?), the flashlight of the withdrawl can attack me one day without any sign before (and the wave is because the tapering)?

2 hours ago, Onmyway said:

Nivsch, the wave is not because of the tapering, it's because your body is healing during a wave. 

 

The important thing to remember is that even if waves do happen, you will be able to get through them, they are temporary and a way to healing. 

I am experiencing such a wave right now
I reduced my daily dose 3 weeks ago
For a week, the withdrawal symptoms were more severe
Then 1.5 weeks seemed relatively normal
And suddenly, without warning, the wave started 3 days ago
I already considered the situation stable
Nor is it ready for such an unexpected wave
I understand that the brain heals during a wave

1 hour ago, Onmyway said:

The cruelty of waves is that they are sneaky. You think you've gotten through the worst of it during a window and then bam! I had a complete meltdown this week for 2 days and I have been holding for over 8 months now and feeling fairly normal most of the time. 

 

The key during the waves for me is to recognize that it's not my fault (I immediately started blaming myself) - that it's an external process out of my control and the only thing I can do is be gentle, distract and try to increase positive experiences (favourite movie, food, talk with a good friend, nature walk). Of course the trouble is that the wave makes all these actions really hard to do. So sometimes the only option is to 'grin and bear' or just 'bear' and wait with patience as healing occurs.

 

But the good thing is waves do just wash over eventually. And that knowledge is what carries us forth really. And that reminder has been the single most important help of SA for me - the reminder that this will get better.

 

Of course the non-drug techniques, the wonderful community, the advice (on reinstatement and sleep especially) has also been invaluable. But above all, I look at SA as a site of hope.  And the most important message of hope is this wave too shall pass and wash over.

 

Hope things are getting better. 

Yes, that's right

Did I understand correctly that the brain heals during a wave?
Here the person wrote that the wave is not directly related to drug reduction?
After dose adjustment, I usually have stabilized within 2-3 weeks.
If the wave comes later, it cannot be predicted
Sometimes something else triggers a wave
Last time the colds up a bit and it started.
If I've worked too hard, it starts
Otherwise, there is work therapy, if you like it
It is difficult for me to find anything pleasant during the wave
As you describe it is cruel
I can't get peace for a moment then, there is anxiety, despair and depression
Once you have reduced your daily dose, it will take some stabilization time.
How many waves do you have before you reduce again?

21 minutes ago, Estman said:

Once you have reduced your daily dose, it will take some stabilization time.
How many waves do you have before you reduce again?

Even if you reduce by the smallest stair possible (0.5% =~ one bead)?

There are 278 beads in one capsule pf cymbalta i take and 3 days ago I reduced 1% of my current dose (two beads) and today my body is stressed I have to do rapid walk all the time. Can it really be because of just 2 out of 278 beads?

Note that i had this akhatisia sometimes even before the tapring when i was on 60mg.

8 minutes ago, Nivsch said:

Even if it reduced by the smallest stare possible (0.5% =~ one bead)?

 

There are 278 beads in one capsule pf cymbalta i take and 3 days ago I reduced 1% (two beads) and today my body is stressed I have to do rapid walk all the time today. Can it really be because of just 2 out of 278 beads?

 

Note that i had this akhatisia sometimes even before the tapring when i was on 60mg.

possible
I also took cymbalta less years ago, somewhere around 30mg a day
when I reduced my dose, I became very tired and weak for 3-4 days
I do not remember akathisia, aknathisia occurred when I reduced Amitriptyline

If only 2 out of 200+ beads are so significant and causing those symptoms, so at least there are good news in it and it means that the brain does a significant upregulation work and build the improvement we will feel after that(?)

Thanks for the encouragement to @Amira123 and @Tweet. I would have replied sooner, but I did not see email notifications as I usually do.

It's interesting that I stopped taking Prozac once before, in 2015, with a very fast taper (psych endorsed) but did not experience much WD that I can recall. I must keep in mind, though, that I also switched over to Lexapro and then Cymbalta for fairly short periods, which probably blunted any WD.

I've been on the Prozac taper since January 2020 without any clear line of improvement, and then a worsening of distress and blurred vision symptoms during the past 5 weeks when I went down from 6 to 4 mg. I don't have pronounced waves and windows, though I have occasional days when I think an upward trend is starting--though doesn't.

I'm thinking that even though I have been off Effexor since May 2019 (way too fast WD) and got through 5 tough months of WD, my brain is still rebuilding from 3.5 years on Effexor and Wellbutrin. I would also like to ask how much of my various forms of distress might just be consequences of the fact that I was on ADs most of the time for the past 33 years. My brain is therefore working overtime.

Do you guys feel (and have felt) an improvement in your mental health at the end of every reduction-and-hold cycle relatively to the end of the previous cycle?

Of course can't be linear but as a clear trend.

Can you tell with even a graph if you have?

I'm so curious about it.

Cycle = 4 days in the shortest case to 6 weeks to many weeks...

Reduction = A fraction of a percent in the smallest case to 10% in the biggest.

On 8/7/2020 at 2:55 PM, Onmyway said:

The cruelty of waves is that they are sneaky. You think you've gotten through the worst of it during a window and then bam! I had a complete meltdown this week for 2 days and I have been holding for over 8 months now and feeling fairly normal most of the time. 

 

The key during the waves for me is to recognize that it's not my fault (I immediately started blaming myself) - that it's an external process out of my control and the only thing I can do is be gentle, distract and try to increase positive experiences (favourite movie, food, talk with a good friend, nature walk). Of course the trouble is that the wave makes all these actions really hard to do. So sometimes the only option is to 'grin and bear' or just 'bear' and wait with patience as healing occurs.

 

But the good thing is waves do just wash over eventually. And that knowledge is what carries us forth really. And that reminder has been the single most important help of SA for me - the reminder that this will get better.

 

Of course the non-drug techniques, the wonderful community, the advice (on reinstatement and sleep especially) has also been invaluable. But above all, I look at SA as a site of hope.  And the most important message of hope is this wave too shall pass and wash over.

 

Hope things are getting better. 

Do you have dreams different during the wave?
I have a struggle or escape with content dreams
They are usually relatively abstract and confusing
I usually wake up several times a night and have several different dreams
Does this mean that the brain is still adapting and stabilizing
Or is it caused by the drug itself?
There are also indigestion at night
It seems to me that an evening dose of medication causes them

On 8/4/2020 at 1:17 AM, Brooke said:

I totally get this. I was so clear in my windows that I got angry about everything that had happened to me, and I had to be careful not to let that anger push me back into a wave. Combined with the fact that the world literally looked more beautiful...it was like I was on a different sort of drug. 

 

In hindsight, what I can say about this is that the windows become less intense and more normal over time, if that makes sense. It's kind of like going back to a restaurant and eating a dish that blew your mind. Once you know what it tastes like, it's still delicious but it's not earth shattering any more. Go back 100 times, and you still enjoy it but it becomes part of your normal. 

Thanks. This is a nice description of what I'm experiencing. I've also wondered if the waves are just my brain/mind reacting to more intense experiences. It feels like I'm just kind of overloaded. Sorry if you have this somewhere, but how long did your waves last after discontinuation. I'm especially interested considering the similarity of what you described to my experiences.

On 8/4/2020 at 7:17 AM, Brooke said:

In hindsight, what I can say about this is that the windows become less intense and more normal over time, if that makes sense. It's kind of like going back to a restaurant and eating a dish that blew your mind. Once you know what it tastes like, it's still delicious but it's not earth shattering any more. Go back 100 times, and you still enjoy it but it becomes part of your normal. 

 i have a feeling that my windows are becoming more normal...i have always taught that i felt too good in windows

21 hours ago, Brooke said:

I'd say it took about a year for me to feel "in control" of the waves. And by that I mean that they didn't scare me anymore, and my attitude was more of "put on your seatbelt, here we go again" rather than "oh no, what if this never ends and this is who I am forever?" Once I accepted them as part of the situation, they didn't have as much of a handle on me and I was able to work and live through them in a more productive and nurturing way. 

thank you for this...i still need to learn this...

The average range for your first window

How long does it usually on average take to see your first window? See i have been going through this since February so about 7 months and no wave, constant derealization no appetite etc 

Well for me its been two years since I quit ssris and I dont have any waves or windows. Just constant genital numbness, ed, and no libido. How cool is that? 

I don't feel any difference. Still can't laugh, can't cry, can't love, empathise with people. And beside this - can't have sex. It's been two years - how can I believe in recovery? How can I have hope and will to live?