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  1. I was prescribed paroxetine over 20 years ago because of depression associated with a bad back. Five GPs and no one ever picked up the impact on my sex drive (I thought I was just getting old and tired). My current GP suggested just tampering off the paroxetine over 6 weeks. I had some discomfort going from one pill to half but then experienced very bad withdrawal symptoms from half to a quarter tablet. Pacing at night, highly anxious and panic attacks, especially at the point of falling asleep. Bad enough to go to the emergency room after 4 nights with almost no sleep. I went back to a half paroxetine and the GP suggested adding a half mirtazapine at night, to help get me to sleep. I'm still experiencing "the wobbles" as we call them when I get restless at night. All complicated by a knee replacement and lots of pain medication. The keep it slow, keep it simple and keep it steady message really resonates. I fear I haven't kept it as simple as it could be with the added mirtazapine. Is this likely to slow the overall withdrawal further? Or complicate things too much? Any comments or referrals to old threads that might help would be most appreciated. Thanks.
  2. Hi. I'm not sure that I am doing this correctly. I am on escital. and mirtaz. I want to begin a harm reduction taper, but I am still struggling from rapidly tapering off of a benzo 16 months ago. I was also put on HRT 4 years ago and I wonder if that is causing me problems, as well. I'm afraid that all the medications that I've taken over the years have just exacerbated my mental struggles.
  3. I am having a lot of trouble understanding how to navigate this site. I really need advice and I don’t know how to post my info. I was put on seroquel for 15 days a few weeks ago stopped CT having tardive dyskinesia and I need to know if I should reinstate and taper and how much I should take. I was trying to taper mirtazapine 7.5mg at 1/8of a pill over a month. I am in a lot of pain. I am also on 1mg xanax 3x a day. i don’t have a computer to post all the info u want. I did put it in my bio
  4. Hello everyone. I am suffering from lingering side effects and withdrawal symptoms post-cold turkey (end-July 2022). I was on 1 week of Zactin/Fluoxetine + Mirtazapine (April 2022), followed by approximately 3 months of Pristiq/Desvenlafaxine + Mirtazapine (April 2022 to July 2022). The side effects were so bad that I felt like I had an adverse reaction. I was told by everyone (from family to medical professionals) to tolerate the side effects because the benefits outweighed the costs. Many of the side effects became withdrawal symptoms post-cold turkey, see below. Post-cold turkey, initial withdrawal symptoms included: (1) Insomnia. (2) Teeth sensitivity and pain + dry mouth + gum recession. This was the very first side effect while I was on the drugs. (3) An agitating sensation that there is "something" in the upper body (neck, throat, chest) that I can only describe as a combination of "palpitations + heat + pain + tightness/stiffness". This was one of the side effects when I was on the drugs and it made me really miserable. (4) Electric zaps (brain, back, legs). (5) Loss of appetite (food and drink). (6) Desensitization to caffeine and alcohol. I stopped getting any benefit from coffee, which in the past kept me going throughout the day and did not cause sleep issues. Alcohol used to make me sleepy, but it does not have the same effect anymore. (7) Bloating and diarrhea-like bowel movements. (8) Nausea. (9) Incontinence: Calls of nature have become more "sudden" than I was used to. When I get the "urge to go", I cannot hold it in for as long as I was able previously. (10) Sexual dysfunction: Loss of libido and inability to feel orgasms. Low testosterone levels detected during blood test. (11) Increased eye pressure. (12) Hives (upper body). (13) Increased sweating. At the time of writing (5 April 2023), some symptoms have changed and some have remained the same: (1) Sleep has improved slightly, but I still wake up several times during the night. I have just started taking melatonin (after reading about it on this website). (2) Gums have stopped receding, but teeth are still more sensitive than normal. (3) The sensations are less intense on average than previously, but they can become more intense during certain times of the day, which still makes me miserable. (4) This symptom seems to have disappeared. (5) A very small return of appetite, but still nowhere close to my previous levels of appetite. I have also gained approximately 13-15kg from 70-72kg to about 85kg, which I attribute to a lower metabolic rate, but I can't be certain. (6) The same. I still don't have the same response to coffee and alcohol, compared to what I had previously. (7) Bowel movements have subsided to soft/watery after consulting a gastroenterologist and taking some medication, but I still feel bloated. (8) This symptom seems to have disappeared. (9) The same. (10) The same. Sexual dysfunction remains. I have taken a testosterone injection after consulting a urologist. (11) The same. (12) The same. (13) The same. After about 9 months post-cold turkey (July 2022 to April 2023 at the time of writing), my symptoms appear to have eased slightly and gradually, but I still find them debilitating enough that I struggle to focus and generally feel a sense of malaise/discomfort. In January 2023, I felt desperate because my withdrawal symptoms had not improved substantially after 6 months. I saw 3 different psychiatrists during January 2023 to March 2023, all of whom have said that my symptoms are not drug withdrawal symptoms, instead they indicate that I am still depressed. The insisted that the drugs I was taking are no longer in my system and therefore, their side effects should have disappeared. The first psychiatrist suggested I go back on Mirtazapine, the second one prescribed a combination of Xanax + Lexapro + Stilnox, and the third one prescribed Valdoxan. I've only learnt about the concept of reinstatement through this website, but I understand it's way too late for that. In any case, I am not sure if I would be keen to take the same drugs again, for fear of repeating the same side effects and triggering another adverse reaction. I would really like to heal the natural way because I have had a very bad experience with taking psychiatric drugs. However, sometimes I wonder when and if I will fully recover at this rate, I get the urge to bite the bullet and try whatever drug the psychiatrist prescribes. As you can see, I am still very conflicted on how to proceed. I'm very thankful to have found this website because I really don't really know who to turn to anymore. Any advice on my situation would be deeply appreciated.
  5. Hi, I just came across this peer support group and am delighted as I am really nervous about how I will cope with the withdrawal symptoms. Not looking forward to getting more depressive feelings, suicidal thoughts, crying jags, mood swings, energy slumps. At least with support I can hopefully surf the waves. I still get PMS (32 years and counting!) every 3 weeks and feel like the world is too horrible a place to keep going on - and then my period arrives and I go "Aha! So THAT's what it was!"
  6. Hello all, I’ve found this website incredibly useful so I wanted to share my journey of coming off of venlafaxine (Effexor) with mild withdrawal symptoms so far. Context / About Me I was put on antidepressants in February 2014 at age 18 after I had my first severe depressive episode. Initially, I started on citalopram, then mirtazapine and then venlafaxine (effexor). I have been on venlafaxine for about 8 years continuously with no breaks. I am currently two weeks medication free and I have experienced very minor withdrawal symptoms. My first unsuccessful taper I annoyingly didn’t record my first unsuccessful taper that started in March 2020 but I came off 150mg venlafaxine in 6-8 weeks and had severe withdrawals (brain zaps, nausea and then return of depressive symptoms) resulting in what appeared to be a relapse* (I saw my old psych) and I had my medication reinstated. *From educating myself more on antidepressants, I know now that this was withdrawal from coming off the medication too quickly and not relapse. My (so far) successful taper using pill cutting method Feb 2021: Reduced dose to 112.5mg March 2021: I will have tapered but didn’t record speed, reduced dose to 75mg March 2022: I believe I then decreased further as I recorded going back up to 75mg 13 December 2022: I will have tapered but didn’t record speed but at this point, I reduced my dose to 37.5mg 21 February 2023: Reduced to 28.125mg (ish) 1 April 2023: Reduced to 18.mg (ish) 21 April 2023: Reduced to 9.4mg (ish) 10 May 2023: Took last dose of venlafaxine. I was planned to taper further from 9.4mg but took a shot to see how I felt and so far, so good. I was prepared to take my dose immediately if I felt unwell. Withdrawal symptoms I have experienced very mild withdrawal symptoms, including: - Most noticeable symptom has been that it has triggered an IBS flare up and my bloating is unreal 🤯 - Slightly off balance / dizziness - Fatigue - mild and only for first few days - Slightly irritable Major thing to note is that I’ve had NO brain zaps and no mood-related symptoms or anxiety!!! Resource recommendations Antidepressed by Beverly Thomson May Cause Side Effects by Brooke Siem https://markhorowitz.org (particularly his work on hyberbolic tapering) https://withdrawal.theinnercompass.org I appreciate I am lucky in my experience the second time around as I know many people have to face horrific, permanent withdrawal symptoms. However, I hope this shows that it’s good to go slow and not to rush the process of coming off. Happy to answer any questions and I will continue to update on my progress! A
  7. Introduction topic I promised myself that if I ever survived psychiatric drugs, I’d post a “success story” on the internet because I always found such stories encouraging to read, even if they felt like a distant dream—somewhere I could never really reach. And yet here I am—I’ve made it—and it’s “withdrawal” that now feels like the distant dream (or nightmare) from a past life. I feel it’s time then for me to share my story, albeit as a video. I didn’t expect or want to make a video but my own path to “healing” is somewhat unconventional. It goes beyond tapering, which for me was insufficient on its own. So, to really share my story, I need to provide a fair amount of background information. And, for me, this centres on how I’ve come to reframe my experience with “protracted withdrawal” into something else altogether, called The Mindbody Syndrome or TMS (a concept by the late John Sarno, a rehabilitation physician). It’s through my understanding of Sarno’s mindbody approach to chronic pain and other medically unexplainable phenomena that my years of withdrawal sensations (or TMS) finally ended. I’d note I’m not the first person to use a TMS approach for “protracted withdrawal.” Others have had success as well. I’ve communicated with some of them. It seems, therefore, that more people could benefit from knowing about this. To be clear I’m not saying this approach is necessary for anyone nor am I proclaiming a definitive explanation of “protracted withdrawal syndrome.” What I’ve done is taken a demonstrably successful approach for chronic pain of unknown origin and adapted it for withdrawal sensations that seem to go on and on for no particular reason. Given the limited scientific understanding of “withdrawal syndrome”, however, my adaptation comes with significant simplifications, speculations, and leaps that many people will reasonably see as implausible and too reductionistic. I get it. Despite this, I’ve posted this video because, well, this is my own understanding of how I resolved withdrawal sensations for myself—and, also, exact physiological details aren’t so important for a mindbody approach; it’s the broader psychological concepts that matter. And, who knows, maybe this will resonate with someone else. Regardless I hope everyone finds the best path for themselves. This is the one that worked for me. Finally, I’d just say that the following video is sort of like a self-help video as well. So for any person interested in this approach, I make suggestions based on my own experiences and interpretations, but I'm not saying what anyone should actually do or think. There are also references throughout the video so there’s lots of info and authors listed for anyone who feels so inclined to look into this beyond one random guy on the internet. Note: If you find the video too confusing or shoddily made but you’re interested in this idea, I’d suggest The Mindbody Prescription by John Sarno or The Great Pain Deception by Steve Ozanich for a better explanation of the psychology of TMS; or, if you’re interested in a more “scientific perspective”, I’d suggest Psychophysiologic Disorders by Howard Schubiner et al. (Psychophysiologic disorder is basically just another name for The Mindbody Syndrome.) Each of these books goes into medically unexplainable phenomena beyond chronic pain.
  8. Hi everyone, I have been tapering off Mirtazepine since August 2022. My dosage history is in my signature, however long story short is I have been cutting my dose in half since August on the advice of my doctor (I know now this was tapering too fast) and began experiencing withdrawl symptoms in November when I went down from 7.5mg to 3.75mg. I was scoring 15mg tablets in half to get 7.5mg, then started taking this every second day (I also know now that doses shouldn’t be skipped). I experienced withdrawl symptoms for 4 days in November, then felt fine. I reduced my dosage again at the beginning of December to 1.87mg, (too soon and too much of a reduction) and had withdrawl symptoms for the last half of December, until I called my doctor and he advised I increase my dose up to 2.5mg. After I did this, my symptoms eased and then resolved after another week or so, in early to mid-January. At that point I thought I had stabilized and was home free, and that my withdrawl symptoms were over. I planned to start the 10% reduction method at the beginning of March, but then got hit with pretty bad withdrawl symptoms again at the end of February. The symptoms followed right on the heels of a flu that I had. After a week I increased my dosage again to 3.75mg, and my symptoms were all but gone by the next day. I saw my doctor this past week and was able to get a new prescription for Mirtazepine as a liquid which I can fill at a compounding pharmacy. My plan is to reduce by 10% at the beginning of April if the rest of March goes well. I have read about the 'windows and waves' pattern of withdrawl - was what I experienced at the end of February a wave? Is it possible to have a wave triggered by another illness, like the flu? And is it possible to experience a wave when one has been holding steady on the same dose? I think the reason I was surprised when my withdrawl symptoms returned was because I hadn’t changed my dose since the beginning of January, and thought I had stabilized. I guess I am just looking for some reassurance that what I have been experiencing is typical of withdrawl, as well as any suggestions as to whether I could be doing something differently to make this go easier. Since my system is responding to reinstatement, I considered reinstating back to 7.5mg, which is the last dose I took before I starting experiencing withdrawl symptoms, and then reducing by 10% monthly. I fortunately tolerated Mirtazepine very well when I was on it, with relatively few side effects. There is no reason I can’t take my time tapering off and I don’t care if it takes years. Thanks everyone for reading. I know my post is a bit on the long side.
  9. Hi all, I haven't been on here for quite some time as I have been very busy with life. I guess that is a good thing? I thought that now is a good time to write my success story since I have been off Mirtazapine for well over 1 year and haven't had any symptoms related to that for 1 year also. Here is my introduction and journal I wrote to give you an idea of the journey I went through: The problem: So back in 2017 I was blighted with a severe case of anxiety, I won't go into how this was triggered as this could have been from a number of things that contributed to this happening including lifestyle, stress, partying too much, among other things. Initially i was prescribed Sertraline that literally sent me into panic after taking 1 tablet, this was then switched over to Mirt. I was prescribed Mirtazapine to relieve some of the symptoms which initially worked (It helped me sleep and get my appetite back). However as any of you on this medication will know this drug is very unpredictable and can cause all kinds of mental and physical symptoms. Withdrawing + Symptoms I was only on Mirtazapine for a total of 6 months which included 2 months of tapering (see journal for more information on this). Initially I found coming off the drug quite easy, some stomach pain, sleep pattern changes but not much more. After approximately 1 month my withdrawal symptoms began. I noticed that I was very emotionally unstable, meaning everyday worries/problems become huge anxiety triggers. This was even more worrying to me as I started to think that my inital 'anxiety' problem was starting to come back and it wasn't really the effects of Mirtazapine (I was wrong). As stated, my symptoms started at the 5th week of complete withdrawal from Mirt and lasted almost 7 months. Yes 7 months! Thats longer than I was even on the medication. They were as follows: - Severe waves of anxiety (some lasting up to 3 weeks) - Weird OCD style thoughts, totally alien and not what I'd usually be thinking about - Frequent migraines from exercising - Weird joint pains (between fingers, also in my thorax) - Rectal pain (this was very weird also, and would happen at random times) - Random nose bleeds (worse during full dose but also happening during withdrawal) There were more symptoms but I can't remember them all at this time, the anxiety however was the most problematic and painful. I kept a mood diary which allowed me to rate the severity of my anxiety and track any patterns. I also had psychotherapy privately which cost me alot, and actually wasn't useful to me due to the fact the professional was treating me for 'generalised anxiety disorder' rather than 'anti depressant withdrawal'. I cut this off during my taper which helped. I noticed that I was experiencing the typical 'waves, windows' scenario. Throughout the withdrawal process I experienced waves of anxiety approximately 5 weeks after each dose drop. This, to my knowledge, was my brain trying to re-adjust to not being medicated anymore. One thing I need to mention here is that - do not assume you are permanently screwed. I fell into this trap many times, breaking down into tears thinking "Is this how I'm gonna be forever?". This thought should be avoided, infact forcing positive thoughts to stop yourself catastrophising like this will help you get better. Recovery As it is for most, my recovery was very non-linear. I went through periods of little to no symptoms, then i could wake up with chronic anxiety and a whole host of physical symptoms to go with it. I almost gave up on my medication sobriety many times, including visits to the doctors only to be told i should re-instate. Thankfully I never re-instated once, I fully understand those of you who have re-instated though as withdrawal symptoms can be horrific and any form of relief is needed sometimes. The one thing that kept me going was the fact that I was experiencing windows of no symptoms at all, this could range from 1 hour to 2 weeks of no symptoms. I remember the moments where I was coming to the end of a window and was about to fall into another wave, this was probably the worst part of all this. The fact that I was fully aware that my window was over and i was now about to deal with a period of chronic mental and physical pain for an unconfirmed amount of time. The eureka moment for me happened at about the 7th month of withdrawal, I was still experiencing anxiety spikes but they were literally lasting only one day, followed by many weeks of calmness. I remember thinking "Wow, I totally forgot I was withdrawing from medication, its been weeks since i felt bad!". I strongly believe a point of recovery is reached when you actually forget that you have been unwell, I guess the science behind this is that new pathways have been created in the brain. Over-writing the anxious pathways our brain has trained itself to regularly follow throughout this process. Thoughts to take-away + Tips Its now been 1 year since I experienced any anxiety symptoms, I don't even get the "Am I going to have a panic attack in this situation" anymore. That's a huge leap for me as I knew when that happened, I was about to go back into the anxious loop. At times, my symptoms were so strong I was thinking about throwing it all away and just handing myself over to be hospitalised. Somehow I managed to soldier on and keep fighting.. I really feel that I am back to my normal self which I remind myself of everyday. I actually think this whole process has made me stronger mentally as I know that there isn't much worse than what I went through. Tips - Recovery is non-linear - don't set yourself a date to get better, it will happen naturally - Negative thoughts actually slowed down my recovery, consciously forcing positive thoughts reminded my brain that it was still 'normal' and not 'permanently damaged' helped alot - Positive self talk & speaking out loud to yourself allows your concerns to be aired if you are worried about what people will think - Don't read any worst case scenarios online! These will make you feel worse and actually trigger the mental symptoms - Take it as slow as you possibly can. Withdraw slowly, don't kick yourself because you still feel sh^t 6 months/2 years later. Your full recovery date is set for you, nobody else - Exercise, diet and sleep are of huge priority as they will give your brain/body what it needs to return back to it's healthy state - Track your progress and remind yourself of your 'windows'. they will become longer over time Please be aware I'm not a medical professional so any advice should only be followed through the advice of a medical professional. I'm sending positive vibes to anyone reading this who are going through recovery, KEEP GOING!
  10. Hi all , I am 8 months off reinstated sertraline for a month ( by doc) and Aripropazole. History Its around 4 years back when i passed out my college and not get placed even after making to finals in many interviews .. that i decided to write competitive exam for PG. I had taken coaching but just before exam I came back and found myself unable to recall things. My brain is just like nothing in it. I found myself in despair and stopped studying. This fog is happening all the time since my engineering but I managed to get average marks sometimes and sometimes very good . There is more in back history but I ll get to it later. So, my parents took me to a psychiatrist ( family known) and he put me to Olanzapine and one more thing. He diganosed me bipolar2. I got about 10 pounds on it but its not help . Meanwhile after 4 months, with the help of a relative , I got intern in a company and I moved out with fog to a distant city. TThere in a hospital, they put me on floxetine and Amisulpride for 3 months . Then i moved to a private psychiatrist ... where it starts getting haywire . He stopped fluoxetine and Amisulpride . And put me on Venlafaxine and Seroquel... As i was interning, i get usual heat racing in between job times but my doctor convinced me to stay with it . 4 months and I just started feeling agitated due to stress. It happened that I slapped a senior on abusing me and there I left a job I never happened to get physical in my school or college .. but it happened. Doctor told me to scrap the prescription he wrote of raising Venlafaxine. And he put me paroxetine + Oxcarbazepine. In his words , it is best tolerable and has lesser side effects. I managed to get a job by my own and cracking first time. But this time there is lot of work and culture pressure. Its a startup with full of politics . Boss and his boss .. all keep on putting things. Let office aside, I started feeling some well .. overly casual ... excited .. raged .. Iits about 25 mg Paroxetine and 300/600 mg Oxcarbazepine. I had unusual violent acts .. had hit a school friend .. insomnia.. I decided to leave the paxil by asking the doctor . He said half in a week and then other half a week to off. Thats when it all started , i cannot sleep whole night and with day light i start getting a nap. I left going office with fear of state i was in . I cannot wake and even if I .. i was too tired and angry . Doctor then gave me Mirtazapine which didn't help . I resigned job telling muly boss about all and came back home. It was Nov,2015. I start getting yhese uncontrollable rage that I locked myself in a room. Parents took to a local shrink who put me on Venlafaxine+ Mirtazapine(CRF), lamotrigine, resperidal, Seroquel. The NEXT Day I woke up so fresh .. all calm like 12 yrs back .. i was smiling happy.. but it lasted only 4 hrs .. and i am doomed again . I took those meds 10 days and i decided to go off. Physical Damage. I got brain zaps as sounds with eye movement .. While on Paxil I got severe neck stiffness and movement pains - which came out as Osteophytes. Anger , heart race , memory, fog , chest pains , fatigue ... All I beared for 4 months. Reinstatement after 4 months. Father took me to another psych who put me on Sertraline+ Aripropazole+ Seroquel. I started having increases restless legs than before and the doctor asked me not to go over net. After 2 visits and when he said it wslas Aripropazole for restlessness all time.. and he is cutting it . I stopped all meds . Withdrawals in 8 months. All first symptoms with some new like utter sensitivity in teeth. It is while breathe in most of the teeth . Muscles gone from forearms .. My left hands gone ulnar neuropathy and i got surgery done when no hope lived. Right hand has stiffness too . MAnger I am living with .. I have stopped talking .. I have decided to go sit on my Shop but I was unable to understand the talk . In spite anger biuts and memory makes it difficult to adjust. I keep forgetting people faces .. important talks . So i stopped . Now I am muted all the time with burst inside . Read success stories and play CoC. This is the most I can write now.
  11. Hello SA community, This is my first post here, I would like to tell my story to get more insights hopefully from people who have been through the same or similar. I know psy drugs are similar in many ways but also different, and especially people who may have undiagnosed physical ailments those drugs maybe masking or making worse. I am kind of lost at this point and desperate for sound advices. My story began in October 2016, I was perscribed pregabalin 75mg twice a day (150mg total) for IBS pain, a touch of anxiety, and fibromyalgia, by GP, when I refused to take antidepressants, I was convinced pregabalin was not the same and agreed to take it. My first few doses of pregabalin worked wonderfully, it managed all my complaints, however this didn't last long, on my second week of pregabalin I started having some new strange anxiety, which developed and progressed into full blown continuous panic hell by the end of second week, I immediately stopped pregabalin, but my new panic hell continued, I kept telling myself it would go away eventually, but it didn't, a month went by like a nightmare and eventually became what I now know was akathesia. I went back to my psychiatrist, who i havent been seeing for a while, who then didn't believe me and said my symptoms sounds like addiction, as he knew I tried a few sessions of psychedelics and MDMA in the past trying to cure my anxiety along with psychotherapy sessions at his office, which he didn't approve of and labeled me "drug history" I was also a daily stoner and wasn't shy about it. My psychiatrist then after extensive surveys and interviews, he concluded that I was addicted to pregabalin, and had me back on it and told me I need to taper slowly now. To my ignorance, I believed him and followed his advice. I also joined a FB group dedicated to pregabalin withdrawal, which convinced me even more of my psychiatrist point if view when I saw more people like me who were on pregabalin for a short period of time yet had to taper off slowly. My taper was taking forever, I was still suffering quite badly all day and night for 6 months and was down to 100mg from 150mg of pregabalin. My concerned family then consulted another psychiatrists and had me see a new one, who told me the only way out of pregabalin is to take mirtazapine, I hesitated alot but I was becoming a skeleton from weight loss and completely lost my mind. So I took my first dose of pregabalin in February 2017. It was 15mg, and BOOM, I knew I will be able to stop pregabalin as all my symptoms got at least 50%-70% better from just one dose of mirtazapine, 2 months later I was able to stop pregabalin in April 2017, and resumed my career as a manager in a pharmaceutical company (irony) in August 2017, by that time I was in top mental and physical health and even my IBS went away after few weeks on mirtazapine and gained some very needed weight. 2 months into my new job, in October 2017 I started waking up with strange nausea that developed into cyclical vomiting every morning. I had switched from smoking to vaping a month before that and still vape. I was referred to GI doctor who tested me positive for H. Pylori and had me on quadruple h. Pylori therapy, it didn't help and made me worse (ALOt worse). I was back to my psychiatrist who was my hero saviors who saved me from pregabalin to save me again, he gave me amisulpride 100mg and then added bromazepam 1.5mg in the morning and increased my mirtazapine to 30mg. It saved me again and I kept taking this cocktail until now but I managed to lower amisulpride to 25mg over few years. Couldn't stop it and when I tried I get into bad cyclical vomiting again. 2018 was all about working, but my IBS was getting worse and I started diets and natural protocols to manage it May 2018 I got engaged to my lovely wife who lived in Thailand, but I started gaining more weight and more IBS and food intolerance got worse and worse. June 2019 I got married in Thailand, life was good apart from my weight gain, and gut issues. I went back to my country to work a bit more. September 2020, traveled to Thailand to be with my wife, had to do quarantine in a hospital since it was covid. During my quarantine I had the worst food and gut issues I have ever had in my life, and my anxiety was very bad, nevertheless, we thought it was from the food that was offered and loneliness of the quarantine. However after finally finishing the quarantine, and moving in with my wife who is a pharmacist, my issues in Thailand got out of hand, I couldn't tolerate any food, the weather or anything, but I kept pushing it and seeking medical care and also trying endless diets and alternative therapies. My condition kept deteriorating over the next year and a half then I traveled back home in October 2021 for a vacation, 2 days in home and my gi and mental health and strange anxiety went away almost 80% But I traveled back to my wife in December 2021 and the same thing happened, few days in Thailand and all my gut symptoms and strange anxiety came back, and started deteriorating even more, dizziness, breathlessness, tinnitus, fibromyalgia, severe food reactions and gut issues and I was diagnosed CFS/ME and was advised to go on LDN (Low dose Naltrexone) in July 2022, it helped a bit but not much. I traveled back to my country in April 2023 (2 months ago) and my symptoms got better but not as much as I hoped, I also discontinued LDN as I thought it wasn't helping and maybe putting more load on my liver, now I'm here in my country, afraid to go back to Thailand but also suffering lots of gut issues here, anxiety, tinnitus, and weight loss. I saw my psychiatrist hero who saved me now 2 times, but this time he sounded a bit out of "tricks" and the only thing he can do is give me a new drug, it was Anafranil, and told me to cross taper over a couple of weeks, which I didn't take and looking to get a second opinion. I went to the best gastroenterologist in my country, one of the top on the world, described my situation, he ordered me minitran 2/25mg which is a combination of amitriptyline 25mg and an antipsychotic I never heard off. He told me to do a cold switch as he thought mirtazapine was causing many of my issues. I'm now confused, living hell again and addicted to 3 drugs, mirtazapine 30mg, amisulpride 25mg, bromazepam 1.5mg and tried cutting of 1/3rd of a mirtazapine tablet trying desperately to come off, I only lasted 36h and all my symptoms, gut issues and many neurological issues got worse, I went back to 30mg mirtazapine and ordered liquid suspension vehicle to try come off more gradually, which I didn't start because I feel it will take forever and my baseline and gut issues are bad enough already to start any taper. I am contemplating my gastroenterologist advice for amitriptyline but so afraid to do any move. A slow taper can cost me my marriage which is falling a part now due to my health. Although my wife is very loving and supportive, i am being realistic that we can't maintain a healthy relationship for the period needed for a slow taper while being in 2 different countries. I can't let that happen to her although she supports this solution rather than a cold switch to amitriptyline or Anafranil. But 2 years is a lot of time for the devil to work his way between us in my experience in relationships. I am not sure what to do now. Any thoughts, experiences is really appreciated, what would you do if it was you? Thanks for reading to this point ❤️
  12. Hello. I am wanting some advice on withdrawing from the drugs I am currently on. I am taking 60 mg cymbalta, 5 mg zyprexa and 7.5 mg mirtazapine. I would like to withdraw from all 3 at the same time. Is this possible
  13. I was directed here from reddit because I wanted to cling on to success stories. I need hope. 8 years ago I had personal and career trauma, and lots of misunderstandings with my mom. I ended up being unable to do my masters thesis which spiralled to escaping via sleeping. Around 2015 I seeked help with Doc A. She was very careful. Ended up with Lexapro, the least uncomfy, but no effect on the depression symptoms. She was always busy on radio shows and late to appointments. I switched to another doc. Doc B said the antidepressants were "brain vitamins" and very very safe. He said I stayed too long with Lexapro with no visible effect so we should change it. He said he took them himself and he was ok. He gave me a list of ADs and told me to get back at him when I found the drug that I was most comfy with. He said try the different brands too coz they have their own "recipe." Paroxetine, Fluoxetine, Duloxetine, Mirtazapine, Venlafaxine... I cannot remember all coz the list was long. I ended up in the hospital after GI issues that nobody could pinpoint the cause/cure. I failed to tell them about the series of meds I cycled through. I was scared so I stopped all the meds. Then I felt panic and pain and other things I could not understand. Doc B was unreachable. I found another doc Doc C who got me back to Lexapro. I finished the prescription, was not able to meet Doc C so I went back to Doc B. He suggested going back to the list. It was March 2020 and we had a feeling that Covid lockdown was imminent. I chose lexapro because it was "safe" and had least chance to land me in a hospital in the middle of lockdown. September 2020 I switched to Doctor D because she was accessible online. I think I did a pause on Lexapro before this. And my anxiety was sky high. My senior citizen dad had heart problems and he got Covid. She gradually reintroduced Escitalopram, then she added Duloxetine, then she added Alprazolam. This whole combo lasted for approximately a year. I still had mood swings, I lashed out when the anxiety became too much, I had minimal advancements to my thesis. I was the only one in the family "fit enough" to drive and go out during lockdown. Around June or July 2021 she swapped to Bromazepam (Lexotan) so the new combo was Escitalopram, Duloxetine and Bromazepam. No guidance why, didn't even tell me alcohol was not allowed with benzos, "checking side effects would just scare you." All throughout, we were doing weekly consults, and I trusted her and hoped she could help with my trauma etc. 1 hr sessions turned into 15 mins. I guess she was just checking if I was still "okay." She had no plans of taking me off. Just supply and supply. I wanted off so I started my bumpy DIY taper around January 2023. Someone recommended a Doc E who was said to be really good but ny sched with her was still on April 2 2023. Withdrawal hit me like a semi so I took some meds and restarted DIY taper. I was completely off by March. Sent an SOS mid-march to Doc E. Withdrawal was awful. Doc E gave me mirtazapine. For mood disorder. I thought she was gonna taper me using this. 1 month of hell. I gained 10kg, groggy, always hungry, aggression, GI issues. April 25 2023 she switched me to Abilify, 3 days later I cried to her and said I am so sorry I cannot take it anymore. She said beware of relapse. She said i did not need to taper the mirta and abilify. She recommended a CBT therapist and told me she can't help me as I did not want meds. The 3 years of benzos were not addressed. May 2023 was great. Mental clarity. Joy. Advancement in thesis. Then I got Covid for a week. I got healed but then the GI issues started. The panic. May 28 2023, I started getting akathisia -like symptoms. Until now. Found out that benzos were for short term only. Found out about VERY slow tapering. I am scared, angry, and really sad. Through this experience, I had a heart to heart with my mom. Maybe we should have tried talk therapy first. The meds did not help maybe because the wounds needed talks and hugs and understanding. 2 months zero benzos. 1 month zero brain drugs. I am still torn if I should go back to the doc and do a slow taper (will they even let me tho?) People in benzo support forum said I should tough it out. I took out 3 meds in just 1 month. I am reading that my chances are slim. But I am scared to go back.
  14. Hello everyone, This is my first post, and I wanted to express my sincere appreciation for the supportive environment this forum provides to individuals grappling with antidepressant withdrawal symptoms. The particulars of my journey can be found in my signature block, but in short, I've been navigating a three-month withdrawal process following an abrupt cessation of over three years of antidepressant use [cycling through the TCA class of drugs with Amitryptoline, Trazadone (Trittico), and Mirtazapine (Remeron)]. The withdrawal symptoms were triggered by the decision of my psychiatrist to abruptly switch me to Pristiq (Desvenlafaxine, an SNRI). After complaints of fatigue and depression, his expectation was that the SNRI would give me an energy boost. This switch was aggravated by the decision to not cross taper. Instead, within 24 hours stopping Remeron and starting Pristiq triggered nearly manic side effects. I was in a hyper-agitated state, dizzy and unable to sleep. He suggested I continue with Pristiq for a week to see if symptoms improved, after they did not, he cold turkey transitioned me to an SSRI (Lexapro) to test its efficacy. Unfortunately, this change didn't bring any improvement. Ultimately, we attempted to reinstate Trittico at a very low dosage. By that point, however, my body had become hypersensitive and reacted adversely to any changes. About 100 days later, my withdrawal symptoms are still significant, with only sporadic periods of reprieve. My most debilitating symptoms include severe dizziness and disassociation (which can last for days), brain fog and forgetfulness, hypersensitivity to certain foods and stimulants like sugar and caffeine, intense anxiety and insomnia, and a persistent, severe ache in my neck muscles that make it feel as though my entire head is trapped in a vise. I also suffer from a constant, low-grade stomachache. These symptoms are negatively impacting my work and personal relationships, which leaves me questioning whether I should consider reinstating a low dosage of one of the original successful drugs (Amatryptoline, Trazadone or Mirtazapine) in an attempt to alleviate these issues. Alternatively, I'm wondering if it would be better to continue without introducing drugs, out of fear of potentially exacerbating the situation. I've also explored virtually every dietary supplement available, but I'm unsure whether any have a real impact. Despite maintaining a healthy diet and exercising lightly each day, I'm not witnessing any significant improvements. Does anyone know of any reliable methods to lessen these symptoms? Since Pristiq seemed to have caused this effect on my body, are there any other people who have transitioned from TCAs to an SNRI and experienced the same negative symptoms? What does the recovery timeline look like? At 90+ days, I am severely demoralized and considering restarting anti-depressants. Having read through numerous posts on this forum, I am well aware there's no simple solution. However, my confidence in my psychiatrist has been completely undermined due to his choices to rapidly switch me through medications and his subsequent trial-and-error approach in trying to correct that initial error. Currently, I take 25mg of Xanax at night to aid sleep, but this doesn't guarantee a restful sleep, and I often wake up in a state of panic. I'd be grateful for any advice or guidance on what steps I might take next, as it feels as though I've exhausted all my options. I'm currently undergoing therapy to tackle my baseline anxiety, which has been beneficial, but it doesn't tackle the fundamental issue - the alterations in my neurochemistry and the impact that years of antidepressant use has had on my brain. I am hopeful that there are strategies or tips out there that might alleviate these symptoms and assist me on my journey towards a drug-free life. With sincere thanks.
  15. I successfully tapered off .25 mg Clonazepam in April 2022. Had taken for 1.25 years for anxiety and sleep. Started doxepin June 2022 then added mirtazapine in late September 2022 to help me sleep. I don't feel it's still helping my sleep. Wish to go off it safely. Taking magnesium and melatonin which help my sleep. Want to start taper by taking 5.65 mg mirtazapine (3/4 of 7.5 mg).
  16. Free from Zoloft and Benzos After 25+ Years of Use One-year post taper “success story” – http://survivingantidepressants.org Elbee (male) - August 27, 2020 At the time of this success story post, I have passed the one-year mark (15+ months) living drug-free. I am speaking to you from “the other side” of hell to let you know I made it through the nightmare of psychiatric drug withdrawal -- and so can you. I want to start by saying that everyone’s withdrawal from psychiatric drugs is going to differ – no two paths are the same. While there will be commonalities in what we each experience, there will also be differences. I also believe that none of us are uniquely or irreparably “broken,” and that each of us can find a path to living much fuller, healthier lives in greater freedom. To be clear, I had doubts throughout this process . . . believing that somehow, I was MORE “broken,” and that I wouldn’t find my way out of the darkness. But the natural, innate healing power we each possess is profoundly AWESOME, and it quietly, patiently works in the background in each of our lives. . . even if we can’t see it, and even if we don’t trust it. For me, the psychiatric drug withdrawal / tapering process turned out to be an invitation to learn how to live my life differently. It became clear to me in this journey that I could never go back to some idealized place I vaguely imagined myself clinging to . . . I could only move forward to somewhere I had not yet been. I need to be honest: It is still hard to revisit and write about just how painful this drug withdrawal process was. Now that I’m feeling so much better, a part of me wants to forget the whole ordeal . . . as if looking in a rear-view mirror, driving ever-further away. And the reality is that this rear-view mirror perspective is very much real -- I’m SO grateful not to be suffocating in such intense pain anymore! But it is also true I will carry the scars of this experience with me for the rest of my life. It is clear to me now that some of me died through this drug withdrawal process. It is also true that the most precious parts of me came back to life. And I am still healing. I was very much disabled through the most intensive parts of the drug taper. I was on these psych drugs for panic attacks, anxiety, and depression my entire adult life, over 25 years. Additionally, I was drinking alcohol abusively, and relying on multiple pots of coffee and a pack of cigarettes to get me through each day. Even before I had decided to get off the meds, I was utterly exhausted most of the time, barely functional, and unconsciously stumbling through life like a zombie. I knew I had to fundamentally change how I was living. The first step in my detox efforts was to quit alcohol in April of 2014, 30 years after taking my first drink as a kid. Thankfully, I was able to release alcohol from my life relatively easily. Whatever boost alcohol had given me previously was gone, and it was clear to me as a 44 year old man that the devastating hangovers I experienced were getting more difficult. Then, over that following summer and under doctor supervision, I “tapered” entirely off both the Lorazepam and Zoloft that I had been taking for 24 years. I experienced tons of anxiety in the process, but I did it, and after the 4-month ordeal, I thought I was in the clear. Unfortunately, about six weeks after taking my last dose of Zoloft, what I now know to be protracted withdrawal hit, and my life spun into a depth of hell that words cannot describe. Instead of re-instating the same drugs I had been taking, the doctors took me on an 8-month “trial-and-error” roller coaster ride of psychiatric drug experimentation. I finally ended up on higher doses of the drugs I had originally quit, plus Remeron added in for good measure. Through all of this, I landed in a very bad place – exhausted, functionally disabled, unable to work, and unsure what to do next. I had some savings in the bank I could live on for a few years, so I decided to “hole up” to do a new taper, following the much slower tapering protocol of the SurvivingAntidepressants.org website. But my savings were limited, so I used the 10% reduction protocol as a baseline, and pushed the taper as fast as I could without killing myself in the process. I’m not sure I would suggest this approach to anyone else, but in my situation, that’s what I did. Note: I’m going to refrain from listing out all the symptomatic horrors I experienced (there were many) as I write this success story. Here is the link, if you’re interested, to my introductory thread which details my four-year psychiatric drug withdrawal process: https://www.survivingantidepressants.org/topic/11862-%E2%98%BC-elbee-25-years-of-meds/ And I want to take a moment here to say how incredibly grateful I am to @Altostrata, @Shep @brassmonkey, @bubble, @apace41, @Gridley, @Rhiannon (her writings), @JanCarol, @KarenB, @ChessieCat, @Petunia, @scallywag and all the folks at SurvivingAntidepressants.org who helped save my life. I also came across Robert Whitaker’s book, Anatomy of an Epidemic around the same time I found this site, and from these resources, I knew I had stumbled into truth. It became clear to me that so much of what the mainstream medical establishment had told me about these drugs, and about my so-called “chemical imbalance,” was false -- I had been lied to. SurvivingAntidepressants.org helped me anchor into this truth and set me on a new course. THANK YOU! With these new resources, I came to understand that getting off the drugs wasn’t just a simple matter of refraining from ingesting chemicals, or even about waiting for those chemicals to dissipate out of my body. I learned that my brain had restructured itself around the presence of the drugs all these years and that by removing the drugs, my brain would have to, very slowly, restructure itself again to a healthy state. The metaphor of a plant (my brain) growing on a trellis (the drugs) for support is so profound to me. How can I expect to abruptly rip out the trellis and think that it won’t damage the plant in devastating ways? This metaphor was such a clear illustration to me of how a neuroplastic human brain builds tolerance, and how we can so easily become entangled in the physiological mechanisms of addiction. And to be very clear, our brains develop tolerance to psychiatric drugs just like they do street drugs, and the mechanics of addiction and withdrawal in each are the same. Gaining this knowledge and allowing it to sink in was probably one of the most important early milestones in my healing process. In preparing for writing this success story, I re-read my entire introductory thread. Several pivotal posts stood out to me as other milestones in my healing process, and while this testimonial might go long, I think it could be useful to touch on some of them . . . In my very first post, I am already talking about the value of meditation. Sitting with myself quietly and focusing on my breath helped me slow down my mind and learn to relax. As I continued with the practice, though, I began experiencing periods of discomfort. I had initially taken the psychiatric drugs to avoid feeling uncomfortable feelings, and as I practiced meditating space was again created for those feelings to arise. Learning to slowly sit with and tolerate whatever thoughts and feelings arose began to nullify my need to run away, and therefore, lesson my urge to drug the discomfort. Meditation became a cornerstone of my self-care practice, and self-care is what I ultimately found to replace the drugs. Next milestone -- about a year later, I wrote an entry about a decision I was struggling with on whether to consult with a renowned psychiatrist. A relative was able to get me an appointment for a psychiatric medication evaluation from a “leader in the field” (at the bargain price of $2,000). Looking back, it was then I decided I no longer believed in the efficacy of psychiatric drugs, nor the system that deals in them. I wrote: Next, in the summer of 2016, still early in my tapering and recovery process, I went on a 111-day, 9,000-mile solo road trip across the U.S. In retrospect, I was probably looking for something “out there” that was missing “in here.” I did a four-day vision fast in the wilderness, hiked a 14,000-foot mountain, roamed Death Valley, did a week-long silent meditation retreat, camped under redwoods, hiked numerous National Parks, etc. Was it really a good idea to take this pilgrimage in such a compromised state? I can’t say for sure, but it’s what I did, and I think it cracked through defenses that needed to open. In the Hoh Forest of Olympic National Park in Washington state, I experienced a release of emotions like I had never felt before. It was in that moment I finally realized that releasing stored emotional blockages could ease my anxiety: Another milestone: Upon returning home to Florida later that fall, I dove more deeply into my involvement with the Adult Children of Alcoholics and Dysfunctional Families (ACA) 12-Step program. In conjunction with doing EMDR with a skilled, compassionate trauma therapist, ACA helped me crack through layers of protective childhood denial that I had carried into adulthood. Some people advise NOT deliberately digging into the unconscious too much while going through psychiatric drug withdrawal, but my path has been that of heavy digging. I accepted living in a disabled state for a period of time and felt that if I was going to get off these drugs, I needed to address what drove me to take them in the first place. By early summer of 2017, my commitment to this recovery approach had strengthened. Along with addressing the trauma associated with childhood family dysfunction, I opened another door . . . into the shame and terror I experienced hiding as a closeted young gay boy and gay teen. I had initially come out 25 years earlier at age 20 (the same time I started taking the psych drugs), but that was only part of my truth I was hiding. The secrets of my sexual orientation were built upon the secrets of having grown up in family dysfunction: Homophobia turned out to be compounding trauma, and I had been living in a closet within a closet. I had more inner work to do. Perhaps one of my most significant milestones was realizing how important it was for me to take the lead in my healing, and how easily I had deferred to the “expertise of authorities” in my life. By June of 2017, I had navigated my way off the benzos completely, and I recognized the importance of building an internal sense of trust – connecting with my more authentic self to discover a new inner compass. Despite appearing outwardly confident most of my life, inner trust was something I lacked. By allowing myself to fully feel, I had opened to recognizing my own authentic needs, to directly and respectfully communicating my needs, and to setting healthy limits and boundaries. By learning these important skills that I had missed earlier in life, I discovered greater internal trust with myself, and greater discernment in trusting others. By January of 2018, I had another important insight: I more fully recognized I was going through an internal chemical withdrawal process in addition to detoxing from the drugs I was ingesting. Behavioral (or process) compulsions and addictions all have physiological and neurological correlates, and I had been heavily “dosing” throughout my life using my own “internal drug store.” This realization profoundly shifted my perspective on my psychiatric drug withdrawal process, seeing it in a more comprehensive context. A lot of my recovery has involved working with an “inner critic” that had been driving me most of my life, born and sustained from a lack of unconditional love. Ironically, this harshness was so pervasive that I had never consciously known it was there. My inner critic constantly pushed me into the extremes of all-nothing thinking. Again, meditative practices more than anything helped me identify this was going on, and ACA reparenting (inner child work) has allowed me to soften it. By the end of 2018, I started discovering something that had evaded me my whole life – moderation, and a general sense of “OK-ness.” By April 2019, I had found a new pace in life to accompany my new inner compass, and I was nearing the full completion of my psychiatric drug taper. I was one-year benzo-free at this point, and at times, I was overwhelmed with heights of new sensations and emotions. I was feeling things I hadn’t experienced since I was a teenager because I had been drugged my entire adult life. It was overpowering in many ways, but I was so grateful to be “awakening” to a much more fully human life. On April 28, 2019, I was finally free from Zoloft, and my psychiatric drug taper was complete. I had found a way out of the darkness, and I had survived. I couldn’t remember having ever felt so alive. So, while this isn’t my entire recovery story, I’m fulfilling my promise to report back and share my continuing journey with others. Where do things stand today, 15 months after taking a psychiatric drug for the last time ever? No need to panic. I’m not experiencing depersonalization, derealization (DP/DR), or panic attacks in frightening ways. I do still feel what I might call different states of consciousness, but often there is a positive, expansive quality to these experiences. Perhaps some might call this bliss? I haven’t really found ways to talk about it yet clearly, but I don’t experience panic attacks in the ways I used to. I still have fears of them returning, but less so with time. I also get “eerie” feelings now and again, but I have found ways to work with that when it happens, and it doesn’t usually last long. Scariest weirdness has ceased. Most of the “unexplainable” adverse reactions I experienced don’t happen anymore. I would get terrible flu-like symptoms for days at a time . . . hot flashes and chills, body aches, cramps, twitches, headaches, fogginess and disorientation, exhaustion, etc. Sometimes my heart would start racing for no apparent reason, or I would have trouble breathing. I had chronic digestion issues. I had intense agoraphobia, even paranoia at times. I had problems making the simplest decisions. All of this, for the most part, has subsided. Consistent rest. My sleep has changed dramatically, and I’m so grateful. I have struggled with sleep my entire life . . . unable to fall asleep at night and feeling anxious and “hungover” with crippling anxiety each morning. For as long as I can remember, I wanted nothing more than to sleep “normally” from 10 p.m. to 6 a.m. and wake-up feeling well-rested. Today, more times than not, my sleep resembles very much what I used to wish for. I wrote an entry summarizing what I’ve done to address my sleep issues here. Keep gently working with triggers. I still have intense anxiety at times and find myself in hypervigilant states. I’ve come to understand this as a trauma response, and I can usually identify what has triggered me and/or how my inner critic has become activated. I’ve developed self-care routines that help to reduce these reactions, and that help me come out of this state much more quickly and easily. Some old wounds have healed permanently – some things that used to trigger me no longer do. AND I want to emphasize there are days now, thankfully, I live virtually anxiety-free. Self-care (reparenting) is my new drug. I had SO much resistance to doing self-care my whole life (for many reasons I won’t get into here). And by self-care, I don’t mean treating myself to a spa day (though that probably doesn’t hurt). I mean the day-in and day-out routines of physically, intellectually, emotionally, and spiritually tending to myself like I’m the most precious being in the world. Self-care is what got me to where I am today, and it will be the practice of my lifetime. Don’t overdo it. As my life continues to get fuller, I can easily start “checking-out” again. If I stay dissociated for too long, I will pay for it. If I overcommit while on autopilot, I will have adverse reactions when I reconnect with myself. If I try to shortcut too much on the self-care, I will most definitely feel it, and I will struggle. Moving forward, I have to be very careful not to take on too much too quickly, and simply take next best steps. The worst is over. I’ve come to accept that I will never know how much of the excruciating symptoms I experienced these past years were due directly to the psychiatric drug withdrawal, versus how much was due to all the “inner work” I was doing. What I can say is that the symptoms from folks going through psychiatric drug withdrawal and folks doing inner transformative (trauma) work tend to be very much the same. It’s uncanny really, and I can’t explain it. But these two processes seem to very much mirror each other. What I can say is that while there will still be “windows and waves” as my brain keeps healing, and while I still have more “inner work” to do, I’m confident the heaviest lifting for me is done now. Perhaps most indicative of the healing I’ve experienced, I’m feeling well enough now that I’m back in school earning a Master’s in Social Work (MSW) – I’m going to become a therapist. While I’m a bit uneasy stepping towards healthcare systems that betrayed me so deeply, I also feel this is how I can be of most benefit. I’ve come to fully believe that my wounds are intrinsically linked to my gifts, and as I continue to heal my wounds, my gifts will become increasingly available. I’ve been doing volunteer work for some time now, which has helped me to “move back out into the world,” and I hope to transition into paid work soon. I’ve been meeting with people in support capacities, and I envision “coaching” people at some point until I more formally earn my credentials. I plan to be very open about my history with psychiatric drugs, as well as my recovery process. I journaled extensively all throughout my recovery process, and perhaps I will share the “long version” of my story in the future (yes, this is the short version). For now, writing this success story is an important next step in my “coming out.” Thank you for witnessing my healing. Elbee-Success-Story_Free from Zoloft and Benzos After 25 years on them.pdf
  17. So my history is that I started taking anti-depressants for anxiety and mild to moderate depression. Ive always suffered with social anxiety, in particular eating in front of people that I perceived to be 'important' people but they were strangers. If I knew I was going into a situation where I would be expected to eat in front of strangers then I always had an extra pill prescribed by my GP. Propranolol was the drug of choice to be used as a PRN drug on top of my SSRI tablet. I used to take venlafaxine but this was changed a few year ago to Fluoxotene and has recently been added to by my GP and so I now take Mirtazapine in the evening. So as you can see I am not looking to withdraw at the moment but having watched the Panorama programme which has given me food-for-thought. I will come here again when the time is right to look at withdrawal! I will also use this and other sites to gather support and information.... Oh and I am 57. Been on anti depressants for over 30 years and I live in Wiltshire, UK
  18. I can only post in introductions because I'm new here I assume. I'll post a short background so skip to get to my question. Background: Around midway through 2020 I was hit by sudden depression and anxiety I'd never had before. I thought I had food poisoning first. But when what I guess was that physical anxiety left, I noticed everything felt grey. In terms of a cause, it did, and still does, feel random - clinical. I can understand what may have caused it, but it feels more of a trigger for a genetic predisposition rather than a build up of issues. I was at a dead end in life, but these issues were different. Felt seperate from the unexpected depression. I've always been the kind to be unbothered by surroundings. It started in episodes that would routinely last a couple weeks, and I'd be fine for a bit. Intensity and time inbetween would always vary, but it would always last around the same. I got hit by an episode particularly bad at Christmas of 2020 and was put on Mirtazapine. I've never had social anxiety, or really any regular form of anxiety, but I become very viscerally anxious in depressive episodes, so mirtazapine helped with the lack of sleep that was causing. Mirtazapine kind of worked. 2021 was my breeziest year since this started. Kept the bad episodes at bay, but I wasn't happy with the weight gain and lack of motivation. I went through a lengthy process trying to quit at the start of 2022. My withdrawal symptoms were pretty much just those bad episodes over again. I eventually succeeded and started on Lexapro midway through 2022. That's when I truly came to understand anhedonia. My process of lexapro started on a dip, and it just kind of never left for the first time. It probably felt this way as anhedonia is my main symptom of depression. I was more on the normal side than I was during an episode, but my emotions and motivation were noticeably vacant. I got sick of that about 4 months, and switched to prozac around September 2022. Clearly at this point I still hadn't looked into SSRIs enough. Switching was very easy, the only plus I'll give to lexapro is I didn't get any withdrawals. Probably as I was switching straight to another SSRI. Prozac seemed to be better at first. I had some motivation approaching Christmas, and enjoyed most of November December, with some days in between being grey. I noticed when I didn't have a distraction like preparing for Christmas depression was still creeping. Then a day or so after Christmas I slipped into a moderate episode. I had the same experience as the episode starting lexapro, it just kind of never lifted but slightly worse. At least on lexapro I kind of got into a groove. Looking back I hoped how I felt starting prozac was my brain medication free, so was hopeful I'd return to this after quitting and continue to get better. But this wasn't the case. So: -Mirtazapine gave me broad motivation issues. I was happy sticking to a routine but didn't really have the same fire I had before -Lexapro, I was pretty emotionally mute, and motivation was worse, but I could slip into a routine still. -Prozac seemed promising at first, but during January 2023 I would be completely bored regardless of what I was doing. The emotions were slightly better, but still not being able to maintain interest in anything made things feel grey. I quit after a short taper, around mid February, making it around 6 months on Prozac. I know a short taper is a bad idea, but figured if the meds caused my issues it would be better to have them out of my system. If withdrawals got bad, I'd simply taper better. I had a pretty bad episode a couple weeks after, but had similar withdrawal experiences on Mirtazapine. That somewhat lifted, but once again I didn't return to normal. March was slightly better than Jan-Feb. I had a little more motivation, but would be very up and down. Similar to when I started Prozac but worse. I got hit with a worse episode around the end of March. And since then I've been okay some days, but depressed most of the time. Oh! Forgot to mention I've been put on agomelatine to help with sleep, but 3 weeks in I don't notice a difference. Figure it's too early to tell. So to summarise: Before medication, I'd go from good to bad. Now, after SSRIs I go from bad to worse. Question: So, I've explained my background and how before medication my depression would come in waves. But ever since trying SSRIs and quitting 2 months ago, it's constant. I would have thought I'd be back to how I was before medication. My better state before prozac kicked in suggested this. I've looked into this a bit with a few explanations: 1. Withdrawals/discontinuation syndrome: I hear this can last a while, but what makes me doubt this is I get no other symptoms beside depression/anxiety, which manifests the same as my depression before medication. 2. Relapse: symptoms line up more, but the depression I'm experiencing now is very similar to my anhedonia issues seemingly caused by the SSRIs. And if said meds didn't help, in fact made me worse, why would I be relapsing in similar ways to how they made me feel. I'd also put the idea my brain is readjusting to being natural in this category. 3. The anhedonic effects from the SSRIs are still going on: this partially explains issues with previous points, but the prozac should be out of my system 2 months in. And I do feel different than on prozac, just not better. 4. My depression naturally got worse: this is the only other thing I can think of, but the timeline matches up too well with the SSRIs for this to be likely. 5. PSSD: Anhedonia can be part of this, but lack of sexual side effects make this unlikely. So I've come to this site as it seems to have the most understanding of these medications than nearly anywhere else. What do you think explains my current situation?
  19. I’m really really struggling lately. Suffering akathesia. Depression. Suicidal thoughts. It’s overwhelming and horrific. It’s been 13 months since this started and it doesn’t seem to be improving. My mind just won’t shut off with the negative ruminating. I feel there isn’t any way out of this. And it kills me this is my life. Just needed a place to vent my thoughts. Thank you for listening
  20. Utek (Jeff) Hello new friends: Attempting to get off Mirtazacrap Hello, I will try to make this as coherent as possible. By my estimation, my brain is functioning at around 50-60% of what was normal. But that is a vast improvement over just a couple of weeks ago. First, I would like to say one thing about mirtazapine. If it were not for the next day brain fog, sleepiness, fatigue, dizziness, lethargy, and worsening bph symptoms, and weight gain, it would be a pretty good sleeping pill. The last couple of years have been difficult for me and my parents, as I know it has been for the rest of the world also. But I really handled it like a superstar. My Dad was in the last stages of dementia, and he got covid. My mother has a mild case of MS, so I had my hands full. Being an only child put all the responsibility on me. My Dad died in March, 2022. I then decided to focus all of my efforts on the health and happiness of my Mother. We had a couple good weeks. Due to a cascading series of negative health events for my Mother involving afib, paranoid delusions, and 2 lengthy hospital stays, I rapidly lost the ability to sleep. On August 2, I was sleeping about an hour a night. I had nurses helping me with my Mother, but I still had loads of responsibilities. I was barely functional. It took great effort just to write a check. (From what I know now, my cortisol levels must have been off the chart.) After a month of little to no sleep, my best friend drove me to the Emergency Room at the VA. They gave me trazodone and hydroxyzine. I also got appointments for primary care and the psych doctor a week later. The first night I got 6 hours sleep with the trazodone, but felt horrific the next day. I did not mess with the hydroxyzine. After the first night, I only got around 3 hours sleep. Through some kind of miracle (“Jesus take the wheel”) I was able to drive myself the VA the next week to see the psych doctor. She gave me mirtazapine and Buspar. I sort of freaked out, because I remembered we gave my Dad a low dose of mirtazapine to help with his appetite. I took a Buspar that day but it made me so dizzy that I never took another one. After researching Mirt online, I decided to stick with the trazodone. Trazodone just did not work for me. I was only sleeping around 3 hours a night. I reluctantly switched to Mirtazapine a week later. The first night on mirtazapine, I slept over six hours but felt like the walking dead the next day. After the first night, I could only sleep a couple of hours on mirtazapine, and I still had the next day hangover symptoms. This is when things really got bad for me. I am a lover of life but I didn't want to live anymore. I was just so tired. The next 5 days were bad, and dark, and then suddenly I began to sleep 6 to 8 hours on the mirtazapine. I still felt like dog crap the next day, but I decided to fight as hard as I could to live. The first night that I was able to sleep with mirtazapine, I decided to taper to get off it. I had been spending most of my time studying and implementing the free cbti online course the VA offers. I tapered from 15mg to 10mg and still slept good. You can imagine how happy I was. Then the next night I did not sleep at all. So I went back to 15mg and started researching how to get off this crap. I found Altostrata's article which led me to this site, and the instructions on the no harm 10% taper. With my mind only functioning at around 30% capacity, all this measuring and turning the medicine into liquid was quite overwhelming. But I bought my scale and pill cutter on Amazon, and understand exactly how to do the liquid when the time comes. As of today, November 22, 2022 I am down to 12.5mg and I am still sleeping good. Since I started the medicine, I have only not been sleepy 2 days. Today is one of those days, so I decided to do this intro. A few weeks ago this would not have been possible. For me the side effects of mirtazapine are truly awful. The brain fog, and fatigue are intense. This seems to improve a minuscule amount each day. A few weeks ago I was barely functional. Driving to the dentist was a monumental task. But now I can function a little better. I believe I could handle a crisis. But everything takes intense mental focus. My favorite thing in life was walking a 5 mile trail near my home. I made the full walk yesterday, but there was no pleasure. I can now watch a 30 minute sitcom, but a movie would be out of the question right now. I am very grateful for this website. The information is so vital. The sleep mask and garbage bags on the windows have made a huge difference. I sleep an extra hour because of it. The supplements are helping and must say the Lactium is extremely effective for me. I am holding it in reserve for the inevitable rebound insomnia. A few weeks ago, I was at the point where I did not see a light at the end of the tunnel, but I acknowledged the possibility that one might exist. Today, I see a flicker of light, and plan to fight with all my might to reach it. A funny/weird side story: I am a huge Carolina basketball fan, and a couple of weeks ago, I was thinking to myself, I wonder how Carolina did last year. I did remember Roy had retired and Hubert took over. I had completely forgotten that Carolina had a miraculous year, playing Duke in the final 4 and playing in a heart wrenching loss in the championship game. I'm not sure if this is due to the month of no sleep or the mirtazapine. And I had a hard time averaging numbers a few days ago, even thou I am a math wiz. My main focus right now is to get off the mirtazapine and still be able to sleep. If anyone knows how to deal with the intense fatigue and brain fog, I would love to know. Coffee does nothing for me anymore. The mirt seems to neutralize the effects of caffeine. How insidious! Many thanks to all the volunteers here, and all the advice. I will update as I continue my journey to get off mirtazapine.
  21. Ruthie3

    Ruthie3: Intro

    Hi there, I have been through polydrug hell, suffered insomnia after medical shock then given host of sleep meds but believe they caused paradoxical breathing or possibly withdrawals maybe from mix, was given zolpiclone and Xanax and no in breath when going into deeper sleep and would wake constantly? Has anyone experienced this? Continued and given mirtrazapine at morning time! Then amitriptyline which caused urinary retention stopped both, no sleep still so kept on Xanax and zopiclone, then stopped and the same scenario no in breath? If anyone knows what this is? I was then given Xanax to keep me asleep, never more than 1mg ar night only, would you have withdrawals from that if just at night? Panic attacks as no sleep only an hour or so, myoclonus, can’t sleep during day time jerks hypnic. Then started sertraline and hyperacusis started and Xanax still. Then went to psych hospital as wasn’t sure what was happening? Was treated horrifically told agitated depression, never had depression in life, we thing misdiagnosed badly, by power tripping psych as I challenged that. Given Effexor, then clonazapam at night 1mg kept pushing Effexor up, no benefit. I was so worried as they were leaving me on clonazapam, I was only taking at night, day was cut cold Turkey as I was too sleepy. No weaning. Then told take more at night! But got trazadone added 100mg and cut clonazapam to .5 from 1mg, hyperacusis back as had gone but worse than when went in! Effexor pushed up more, phergen added night and clonazapam cut to .25mg from .5mg, Effexor up at 150mg, hyperacusis unbelievable now! Odd as if was depression should the Effexor now get rid of hyperacusis? No benefit. Then told take more, 187 and I couldn’t sleep at all. Myoclonus so bad. Was left even though had bruising everywhere ignored amongst so many other symptoms panic attacks so bad, let out as insurance up, left in lurch, cut to 150 Effexor then 112 and hyperacusis worsening. Got public psych but she said thinks misdiagnosed but no disgnosis and said cut Effexor to 75 and hyperacusis was too much to bear I had to go back to 112.5 mg. What is going on, I’ve never dealt with drugs like this before and don’t know what’s going on and very bad care here, told hyperacusis ENT thing but ruled out but ignored. Hypnic jerks, sleep not great at all, panic so bad in morning feel in total trauma ptsd all time freeze mode. Treated so badly. No info given on anything when in hospital just ignored and wouldn’t wean me off clonazapam yet told me Im on addictive meds now for life! Can anyone help me on hyperacusis and what’s going on breathing at night and hypnic jerks. Breathing is separate than jerks, no in breath in deeper sleep stage. I am at wits end and no life. Left without help. Clonazapam Now out of stock. I’m on it still what left .25mg trazadone and melatonin now might, wake up in horrors. Is it possibly to have withdrawals daily? If low dose? I’m so confused. Pharmacist said possible, my nervous system in total disarray. The 112 to 75 was too much. Too fast just cut fast. Any help on how to cut as tried opening beads out but even that hyperacusis was getting worse? Please help me make sense of this all? Thank you. Is it trauma PTSD, withdrawals, as I am worse now than ever, do get some sleep which is good thing. But wake in horrors. All day panic attacks constantly no let up unless lying down. BP all over place. Get so weak. Have thyroid condition and period issues, fibroid and lot of blood loss monthly. Skin is so dry. Diarrhea all time, gastro issues, reflux. In such panic I just need some advice what May be going on? Thanks so much
  22. Hello Everyone, I'm so grateful for communities like this community. To know I'm not alone. There's so much I want to say though I also want to post an introduction today and my concentration is limited so I'll try to keep it brief. I apologize if it turns out to be a bit long. My first experience of psychotropics was in 1994 when I had moved to a new area, was laid off, and struggling. My PCP was a willing participant and prescribed various medications - Zoloft, Paxil, whatever was available at that time. Nothing seemed to do what I hoped it would do and I didn't go any further. I wish I could say that that was the end of the story. Several years later in 1997, I moved to a new area with a woman I had been seeing. Our relationship was not a healthy relationship and I was under a lot of stress at work, wasn't sleeping well, was having a bit of a nervous breakdown. I decided to make an appt with a psychiatri1st. By that time, I was convinced that medication was an answer to my dilemma. I believed the current narrative of emotional distress, depression and anxiety, neurotransmitters, and the need for medication to make up for what was missing. The first psychiatrist wanted to just put me on Klonopin, said it would do the trick. I knew a bit about benzos and thought this recommendation wasn't helpful. It didn't fit with my understanding of serotonin deficiency. I went to see a different psychiatrist who put me on Effexor, titrating up to 300 mg. He prescribed Xanax initially to help with sleep and anxiety during the day. I was willing to use benzos as a temporary measure. That made more sense to me. I look back with regret and anger that other options weren't offered for what really were normal existential challenges of work and relationship, something I wasn't equipped to handle at the time. Fast forward to the present. I've been on medication since. And I've had a lot of trouble finding a medication that doesn't have significant side effects. I've felt despair. I've been told numerous times that I would need to be on medication for the rest of my life. And yet changing medications is a nightmare. The side effects are a nightmare. I recently read a book called Pathological that prompted a deeper reflection and research on medication in general. That the medication may be my problem. I had already started titrating down on my current cocktail. I experience akathesia on Zoloft, the reason the Remeron was added. It's a bit of a shock that my psychiatrist seemed uninformed. He wasn't aware of akathesia as a potential longer term side effect beyond 1-2 weeks. If patients experience this, it passes, he said. He offered no explanation for why it was passing for me. I've wanted to titrate off the Zoloft for this reason though I haven't known what next. I've felt hopeless. This process is so tiring and disruptive. My psychiatrist is a good man though he doesn't have really good ideas about what to do. Just throw more things against the wall and see what happens as if this were a simple process. I started to believe that maybe I have Bipolar II and misinterpreted the akathesia as hypomania. I was on track to titrate down on my cocktail and look at mood stabilizers, something my psychiatrist was willing to try, when I came across the book Pathological. It changed my view in many ways. My dilemma now is best to proceed. I'm learning just how naive I am about psychotropics and titrating off them. In my efforts in the past, I've followed a more traditional titrating schedule and crashed and burned only to think I'd relapsed and needed that medication. I thought I was doing it more thoughtfully this time which in some ways I am compared to the past though I'm still moving fast. I seemed okay with Zoloft 25 mg and Remeron 15 mg. I went down to 12.5 mg Zoloft and the withdrawal side effects were too much to manage. I'm using liquid Zoloft and quickly went up to an intermediate dose of 17 mg which seemed to be okay. I thought at 17 mg I could go down a third at a time from 25 mg. Because the sedating effects of the Remeron were kicking in on lower Zoloft, I went down on my Remeron to 7.5 mg. It's been 2.5 weeks since that change. It's been hard. The biggest issue is that often I'm unable to think, concentrate. Brain dead. When it happens I'm dead in the water. I can't really do anything. I'm awake though my brain isn't functioning. I can think a bit though my brain quickly locks up, shuts down, goes dead and it's worse as the day progresses. It's a huge issue, making work harder, diminishing my quality of life. I like to read and my ability to read and enjoy it is absent. After reading an article by Adele Framer yesterday, I realized that my plan to not overreact, to name withdrawal for what it is, and just live through the awfulness may not be the best plan. That things may get worse and that there may be a better way. That I need to slow down. Expect that this is going to take much longer than I expected. In that spirit because I'm really struggling with withdrawal and it's having a big impact on my life, I thought that maybe I needed to go back up a bit on the Remeron since it seemed that things really got worse when I went down on it (though I could be experiencing some continued withdrawal from the Zoloft). I went from 7.5 to 11.25 mg Remeron last night. I woke this morning, feeling like I wanted to cry and cry and cry. Maybe this increase is too much. The article talked about kindling and sensitization and I wondered if this isn't why even small dose changes cause problems. My psychiatrist unfortunately is willing to be present as I titrate though his knowledge in this area is limited. My initial question is, Where to go from here with the Zoloft and Remeron to continue the titration? I know I have a lot to learn and am wanting/needing to learn. Also one burning question is, Is this issue with an inability to think, concentrate, and focus, this feeling that my brain shut downs so completely and I can't function, common and is there anything I can do to address this? If you've made it this far, thank you for listening and for any input you can offer. Best, st11
  23. I have been off of Mirtazapine since May 31st. Unfortunately I think I need to go back on. I was given the wrong advice and did an extremely fast wean. I was only taking 15 mg for 5 months. They had me completely weaned off within 10 days and now I’m really suffering the withdrawals. I currently have long Covid. I’ve had it for 7 months. It’s reason I was put on Mirtazapine to begin with. I am also taking 100mg of fluvoxomine. My question is can I just start back up on Mirtazapine (7.5mg) starting tonight? I need some relief from these symptoms. Then once my long Covid is better I will start a much slower weaning process
  24. Hi everyone As you can see from the sig I've messed up my taper. It could have been worse - doc told me to stop dead on 15mg back in August as I'd only been on it 8 months. It was me who attempted to wean off and I think I've messed it up, especially after reading around this forum for the past week. By the time I got to 3.75mg it was considered a "placebo" so I stopped. Anyway, I used to take citalopram many years ago after getting post natal depression, took it for quite a few years then just stopped dead (probably 10 years ago so not relevant to now). Absolutely no withdrawal problems. Not so this time! I was on mirt for sleep problems caused, probably, by my HRT not working anymore. My oestrogen level was non existent and the symptoms were appalling. I was on my knees with palpitations, anxiety and 2 hrs sleep a night for all of 2021 and had other health issues on top, and a bereavement. The mirt worked great and got me to a good place with sleep, hrt experimentation began to reap rewards and my level went up. Unfortunately I put on a lot of weight which caused other issues, like massive amounts of heartburn, and psychologically that made me miserable. Around July my hands became very shaky. We decided that it had done the job and it was time to come off. Like I say, it was my decision not to go completely cold turkey but this was not a supervised taper (as you can tell) and I wish I'd known about this forum earlier. I'm not doing as badly as some of you, but it aint great. My anxiety has crept up, the palpitations are back, sleep is not as good as it was but the worst thing, and which is causing me the most worry, are the shakes. In the evening I get full on internal body shakes which I know can be a withdrawal symptom so I'm putting up with it. It gets worse when I stress about it so I just take a deep breath and watch tv as a distraction (which does help). No, it's the shaky hands - I'm convinced I've got something bad wrong with me and I guess I'm looking for reassurance that this is a normal thing. Sometimes when I'm sewing, for instance, I can't thread the needle, or when putting on eyeliner my hand is all over the place. It seems to be with very precise actions that I have the problem. It eased off once my oestrogen levels went up back in September, really improved. It's come back in the past 7-10 days - I stopped mirt about 15 days ago - so I'm really, really hoping this is withdrawal and not something else. Sometimes I "feel" as if my hand is shaking but when I hold them out they're rock steady (so is this just part of the anxiety and me obssessing over it making it worse?). I think I could ride this out if I was sure I didn't have something else wrong, but it seems that this happens less on Mirt than on other ADs as far as google tells me, so I'm pretty scared. Also, I'm sneezing like the clappers (which I guess is histamine related). I can control it with beconase but if I forget it's always the early hours of the morning when it starts up, usually just after I've finally managed to get to sleep. An hour of sneezing is exactly what I need at 3am. Otherwise have taken up yoga, try to get a good walk every day, eat well, have cut out alcohol, drink lots of water. I'm doing all I can in terms of diet and exercise, but I keep checking my hands every five seconds and it's really going to do my head in.
  25. Hi.. My story is, “briefly“, that I have within the past 3 years, been on... so. Much. Crap. And I am currently in withdrawal torture from hell and have been for years now. In the beginning of 2019, I had a very bad stress / anxiety reaction, and I was quickly put on medication. Benzodiazepines for two months along with starting Zoloft. Quit Benzos cold turkey (doctor’s orders) and then Zoloft was upped to 125 mg (in hindsight I am pretty sure it was because I reacted strongly to Benzo quitting). I felt completely horrible on Zoloft and tapered off over the course of 2.5 months (doctor’s orders). Then I was in complete hell and couldn’t sleep so after being “clean” for one month, I was put on 7.5 mg. Mirtazapine. I could FINALLY sleep and it did seem to help my anxiety a bit? I still had a lot of strange horrendous symptoms though but I don’t know if that was from Mirtazapine or SSRI withdrawal ...? Can a dosis of 7.5 mg. Mirtazapine cancel out severe SSRI withdrawal? Anyway - So in 2020 I was on Mirtazapine up and down weekly between 7.5 and smaller doses (doctor said I could just adjust from day to day). I ended up just completely wrecked and just lied in bed in a haze.. so they took me off Mirtazapine and started me on 60 mg. Duloxetine plus Promethazine for sleep. Total haze still, awful.. So off it again after 7 months - tapered from 60 mg. Duloxetine to 0 over 4 weeks. Then felt .... HORRIBLE (!!!) and started self medicating with Benzodiazepines while I waited for withdrawal to end for two months- until my doctor found out and said stop that. Then I was put on Pregabalin and Escitalopram 10 mg. from March 2021 until I wanted to quit (because I was a complete foggy hazy wreck on that as well). Stopped Pregabalin in May and Escitalopram in July (tapered from 10 mg. to 0 over 4 weeks). In September I tried to take a tiny dose of Escitalopram to ease the horrendous withdrawal symptoms .. but that didn’t work and I felt worse. So I just thought I’d push through this indescribable nightmare... in December however I took 1/2 pill of Benzodiazepine twice because it was so unbearable. So.. now it is 9 months since I stopped Escitalopram (/6 months since I tried a small dose for a week) and 4 months since Benzodiazepines.. I can’t describe how much of a hell it has been AND STILL IS 😔 I have constantly tried to tell myself that it WILL and MUST get better soon. And while some symptoms have gotten better, I have almost no life by now. I hardly see anyone because I just can’t due to symptoms, I hardly exercise or leave my apartment. Some days, like today, it is almost constant torture. A week ago I tried Melatonin (4.5 mg. over two days) and then I’ve tried some Valerian root pills.. somehow it’s gotten worse now. So.......... bottom line: I’m thinking about starting Mirtazapine just to ease the withdrawal symptoms and to make sure I sleep better. Right now no matter how much I sleep, I am never rested and feel like I haven’t slept for days everyday. But I am BEYOND scared that it will make everything worse, and then I have yet another drug to get free from. So yeah.. does anyone know if Mirtazapine can help SSRI withdrawal symptoms? I honestly don’t know what to do. Thanks and sorry about the long message. I feel pretty desperate. 😔 Best Louise
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