success ☼ Happy2Heal: Hope I'm doing this right

[Happy2Heal]

Hey Catnapt!

 

I got the light for SAD and am extremely disappointed that it only caused me to have MORE trouble sleeping rather than less. I'm going to save it to use in the fall, or maybe try it again in a few weeks but for now, it's put away where I can't see it, because I just get upset with myself for spending so much money on it.

 

I'm sorry.  I haven't been recommending SAD lights too often, it's a big investment for many people.

 

How have you been using it?  It is important to use it at the right time of day.  It is important to keep it ABOVE your head, not stare straight into it - it's sometimes hard to arrange - that is why some people use a light visor, that shines down onto their forehead and eyes.  It's also important to not start out with 30 minute sessions.

 

If I were you, I would start out with a sunrise use of it (well, not actual sunrise, but first thing in the morning) of just 5 minutes.  I don't think it's a waste of money, it will come in very useful for mood management later.  I wish I had one now - it is high summer here, but it is too hot for me to go outside and get my light therapy, even though the sun is free.  It also seems silly for me to buy a lamp when I live in the sunniest country in the world.

 

I'm going to keep after you about the fish oil, though.  Here are examples of a few studies (from behind a paywall at ConsumerLabs):

 

 

Depression:

A possible explanation for moderate improvements in depression among those who respond to fish oil, is that fish oil increases white matter (myelinated fibers that connect brain cells) in areas of the brain which can be compromised in depression.  A small study of 16 acutely depressed adults with major depression found that those who improved over the 6 week period of taking 4000 IU fish oil daily (1600mg EPA and 800 mg DHA) 80% had increases in white matter in key brain regions.

 

Anxiety:

A study of US medical students showed,. Over 12 weeks, that those who received high-dose (high EPA)  omega-3 fatty acids had 20% reduction in anxiety symptoms compared to those receiving placebo treatment.  Treated students also had a 14% decrease in IL-6 marker of inflammation

 

Psychosis:

A year long study in adolescents & young adults (aged 13-25) identified as "at risk" for developing pyschosis found that those who took 700 mg EPA/480 mg DHA for 3 months were less likely to develop psychotic "disorder" in the nine months following treatment compared to placebo.  Of those who took the EPA and DHA, 4.9% developed symptoms compared with 27.5% in the placebo group.  In a follow-up study, 7 years after original treatment, only 10% of treatment group had developed symptoms, compared with 40$ in placebo group.  Those who took fish oil had higher psychosocial functioning and required less medication than those on placebo.

 

A study in Poland among first-episode patients (ages 16-35) found that 26 weeks of 4 capsules daily (1320 EPA / 880 DHA) 69.4% experienced a 50% improvement in symptom severity compared with 40% of placebo group.  The greatest improvements were in depressive symptoms.  

 

Please note that all of the effective ratios are not the same as in your algae oil.  Your Algae does not contain enough EPA.  While the brain is composed mostly of DHA, there is something in the conversion of EPA to DHA that your brain needs, too.  All of the psych studies I have read are more along the lines of roughly 3:1 EPA:DHA.  I'm sorry I don't have the original research to prove it.  I just remember that little to no brain benefit was found with Algae oil (and it is so expensive!)

 

The risk of contamination (according to Consumer labs - who tests the oils) from fish oil is relatively low, especially given the benefits.  

 

When you are ready to budget again, this would be my top priority, if I were you.  Think of it as "getting your brain back."

 

Gotta go, I'll check back soon!

 

 

some of the stuff I've found while researching fish oil:

http://nutritionfacts.org/topics/dha/

 

http://nutritionfacts.org/video/plant-based-omega-3-supplements-2/

 

http://nutritionfacts.org/topics/omega-3-fatty-acids/

 

http://nutritionfacts.org/video/fish-brain-food-older-adults/

 

http://nutritionfacts.org/video/should-vegans-take-dha-to-preserve-brain-function/

 

http://nutritionfacts.org/video/should-we-take-dha-supplements-to-boost-brain-function/

 

http://nutritionfacts.org/video/improving-mood-through-diet/

 

http://nutritionfacts.org/topics/mental-health/

[Happy2Heal]

taking stock:

I thought I'd take some time to take stock of my healing progress so far.

 

Let's just skip that first year of withdrawal(starting in June 2015), during which time I was not tapering even close to properly and ended up jumping off at 2.5mgs in late May 2016  (after a high of either 20 or 30 mgs of lexapro, I sure wish I could remember! I was in such a drug dazed fog, for so long, it's scary that I was able to function, considering how badly my memory is impaired regarding that period of time)

 

From June 2015 onward, when I started going off the lexapro, I had a lot of physical symptoms mostly but managed ok, those don't bother me nearly as much as the emotional/psychological stuff. It was mostly feeling too hot and some sleep issues, I also got very sick with 2 different flu viruses and then pneumonia in the winter of 2106, so that year was just not fun, no not at all. BUT manageable, I didn't feel like I was suffering, to be honest, just annoyed by it all.

 

 

so, I'll go back to when I had to reinstate a small dose of liquid lexapro to try to turn around a very bad crash. (this happened in late Sept 2016 approx 4-5 mos after jumping off at 2.5mgs)  take this as a warning, you can think things are going well and it's ok to jump off, but look what happened to me.

 

During that "crash" I had no fewer than 40 symptoms, and all of them were severe; these are the ones I can remember, but there were actually others that fortunately did not last very long, as I recall:

 

 

*hair loss

*a whole bunch of vision disturbances: tunnel vision, blurred vision, massive increase in floaters, ghosting, hallucinations and seeing things moving when they were not. things looking extremely bright or very dark, very sensitive to light or the lack of light (I think when I did my original list, I counted some of these as separate symptoms, so this list should not be as long as 40 symptoms)

*feeling of pressure behind my eyes

*a bunch of symptoms related to smell: I either could not smell anything, or only partly smell things, or things would smell bad, I think I had what you might call olfactory hallucinations, if that's possible? I smelled things that weren't there.

*jaw pain/neck pain and stiffness (these are also side effects that I had when I first started lex)

*tingling in my left thigh

*ringing in my ears that was sometimes so loud I couldn't hear anything else; sounds were either very loud or I felt like I'd gone deaf, sometimes only in one ear!

*runny nose, post nasal drip, sneezing, that came and went and never developed into a cold

*muscle twitches and jerks, esp in my legs and esp at night

*DP and DR

*each one of these deserves to be considered a separate symptom, they were so bad: anxiety, panic, dread, frank and utter terror, intrusive thoughts

*nausea, dry heaves

*vomiting

*diarhhea

*incontinence/urinary urgency

*pain near where my gallbladder used to, sometimes severe

*chills/ sweats- body temp disregulation

*left sided chest pain, near/below my heart

*loss of appetite

*trouble swallowing

*dry mouth alternating with drooling or excessive saliva

*feeling like my breath was being forced back in my nose, also at times feeling like I was going to stop breathing

*cracking and popping joints

*tooth pain

*brief periods of euphoria

*severe all over muscle tension

*stomach bloating

*dizziness, feeling off balance

*pins and needles in my feet and toes

*burning sensation on bottom of feet

*agoraphobia, also afraid of many of the rooms in my house, would huddle on the sofa, afraid to look at the window across the room

*dissociation

*trouble thinking clearly, finding the right word, trouble with my memory

*tremor

*all over weakness

*insomnia, severe

*rapid heart beat, heart pounding, and cortisol spikes

*emotional anesthesia

*anhedonia

 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

 

When I reinstated on Oct 26th, each day, one or more of those symptoms got a wee bit better and in time, some of them disappeared.

It was a very bad time, very bad.

Those symptoms in italics were the ones that bothered me the most and of course, they were also the most severe ones

 

According to my notes, I didn't feel significantly better until sometime in Dec., so it was at least 6 weeks of pure hell. Since Dec. I think things have more or less leveled out, not counting times that I either changed the dosing schedule or added/took away some supplement etc.

 

Now, here it is, about 3 mos and about 3 weeks later (after reinstating at a very low dose) and

here are my current symptoms:

 

*ringing in my ears, mostly only at night or when it's quiet

*insomnia, esp waking up after falling asleep for an initial 60 to 90 min period

*emotional anesthesia and some anhedonia; some mild to moderate depression

*some nasal congestion that might actually be a mild cold or allergy?

*temp disregulation, mostly I get hot flashes/night sweats, I had these before tapering so that may just be hormonal, but I also can't eat or drink anything without getting very hot afterward. I'm also very sensitive to temp in general, esp the cold, but it's winter here, we'll see how it goes when the weather changes hahaha

*dissociation (but not as often nor as severe)

*trouble thinking clearly, finding the right word, trouble with my memory (not as bad as before)

*anxiety, intrusive thoughts, mostly more depressing but sometimes also fearful, some free floating anxiety

*neuro emotions (this is more recent, don't recall having these last fall to the present)

 

 

There are a few others that pop up from time to time but are too mild to even mention, to be honest, and most of the above are also fairly mild.

 

The insomnia & anxiety/intrusive thoughts are what bother me the most.

 

I am hesitant to say anything to "jinx" it, but it seems like possibly the valerian root and/or the vegan DHA that I added just recently MIGHT be helping me to sleep better.

I purposely do not keep track of when I wake up nor how much I sleep, I avoid looking at the clock as much as is possible.

 

but I get the sense that I am sleeping longer before I wake up and that I am going back to sleep quicker each time afterward. I can't say for sure, but it does feel that way.

 

I did start to taper on Jan 25th, 3 mos after reinstating.

 

This may have been far too soon, considering that I was in the ER with severe SI and insomnia on Jan 12 and ended up on a short course of zyprexa, not taken in any thing close to a consistent manner.

Or maybe it was the right thing to do, as it does appear that my sleep is improving, but it's just too soon to know and too hard to tell, since I made so many changes all at once.

I know, I know, my bad!

 

 

 

My plan is to hold at 0.27mg until at least March 1st and will re evaluate at that time.

 

 

I definitely must be healing, to have gone from that long list of severe symptoms to where I am now.

 

[Happy2Heal]

forgot to add vision issues persist, however I have had trouble with my eyes since before deciding to go off the lexapro

I do notice that being emotional makes my vision worse.

So I try to stay calm

[JanCarol]

Hey Catnapt!

 

From the same site (6 min video)

 

http://nutritionfacts.org/video/should-vegans-take-dha-to-preserve-brain-function/

 

If contamination concerns you, just find one which is ethyl ester, which removes all contaminants.  NutriGold is one such brand.  Nature's Bounty mini fish oil, also, which can be obtained more cheaply rebranded as Puritan's Pride or Vitamin World.

 

Ethyl ester is only available in Australia as "practitioner only" supplements - as in Rx.

[Happy2Heal]

Hey Catnapt!

 

From the same site (6 min video)

 

http://nutritionfacts.org/video/should-vegans-take-dha-to-preserve-brain-function/

 

If contamination concerns you, just find one which is ethyl ester, which removes all contaminants.  NutriGold is one such brand.  Nature's Bounty mini fish oil, also, which can be obtained more cheaply rebranded as Puritan's Pride or Vitamin World.

 

Ethyl ester is only available in Australia as "practitioner only" supplements - as in Rx.

 

 

thanks Jan, I'll look into this more soon, I got a bit of a window and am trying to get caught up on some things

 

 

yeh I saw the one on DHA for vegans, that's why I got the vegan DHA LOL

 

but I do know I need to read more about it, I'm trying really hard right now not to make any changes but it's also a good time to do research on things that might help so I appreciate the info

 

will get back to you soonish on a bunch of other stuff as well ok

[KarenB]

Nice stock-taking Catnapt!  It really does help every now and then to have a look at the big picture, doesn't it.  And you are doing well in that big picture. 

[LexAnger]

Hi Catnapt, you have a typo in your signature. I believe you RI at 0.5 mg initially not 0,05 mg. since lots ppl are referencing your success of RI tiny doses, thought to let you know for correction.

[Happy2Heal]

Hi Catnapt, you have a typo in your signature. I believe you RI at 0.5 mg initially not 0,05 mg. since lots ppl are referencing your success of RI tiny doses, thought to let you know for correction.

 

 

hi LexAnger,

nope that is CORRECT!! hahahaha

I did indeed start back at a tiny 0.05 mgs of liquid, and quickly added a second dose of the same amnt and then a bit more, titrating up til I reached 0.15 twice a day, over a period of a just a couple of weeks, I think (not sure I saved my notes)

 

I can see now that I threw everything out of whack by switching from the twice a day schedule to once a day dosing :/

 

I was so out of it at the time, I didn't see (or didn't want to see) the connection, but I looked at my notes this morning and yes indeed, I went from 0.15 twice a day to 0.3 once a day (in the morning) on Jan 8th and was in the ER on Jan 12th

 

oh my. I must be more careful going forward!

[Happy2Heal]

Nice stock-taking Catnapt!  It really does help every now and then to have a look at the big picture, doesn't it.  And you are doing well in that big picture. 

 

thanks Karen

it also shows where I messed up, and that's good to know so that hopefully I will pay more attention and avoid making similar mistakes in the future

;-)

[Happy2Heal]

ok going with the theme of taking stock, I am trying to get a clearer picture of my psych med history.
I've been too afraid to look at this before, convinced that it's so long and so "bad" (on and off many drugs) that I might have a lower chance of healing, but I re read the threads about what is happening while you heal, AND I think about ppl who have actual physical brain injuries, and how THEY heal, so there's no reason to think that I won't.

 

It may be a good thing (to a certain extent) that over the years, I've been somewhat non compliant with meds, as the drs like to say (omg I refuse to put that poison in my body, I'm so bad :/)

 

so, going back to age 18, I was involuntarily given stellazine, a phenathaizine, during several brief hospitalizations

 

I was un medicated most of the time until I was 21 when I was committed to Danvers State Hospital with a diagnosis of schizophrenia, atypical type. For about 5 mos, I was forced to take Haldol. I had a bad reaction, akathesia, at one point and was given some drug, cogentin, I think? to help with the akathesia

 

when I was released from the hospital, I wasn't on any meds. I did have an Rx for haldol at one point and took one pill, became instantly suicidal and never took another one.
I spent several months after getting out of the hospital, sleeping up to 23 hrs per day and feeling totally exhausted in spite of this. I suspect now that that was WD from the haldol, although of course I was dx with severe depression.

I got pregnant that year, and did not take any more meds til I was hospitalized a few years later, and I think- I wish I could remember!! that I was given elavil. I hated it, it made my mouth so dry, so I never took it when I was out of the hospital.

 

the next few years are a blur, I'd married an abusive man and had a hard time getting away, had to leave the state, and all that, ended up homeless with a baby and young child a few times. I don't recall if I was on any psych meds thru all this.

My living situation got somewhat better when we moved into a subsidized housing project when my daughter was about 4-5yrs old I think. I think this is when I was put on lithium (eskalith CR) I think it was when she was around 7, though, I was on it for about a year, and then got the idea that it was actually a placebo and that the drs were playing games with me, so I stopped taking it, and got very very ill. I ended up being committed to the state hospital again when I was about 30 yrs old and put back on lithium and an anti psychotic, I think. I was released without any Rxs and no way to get them, the drs I had, that i didn't trust any way, stopped seeing me, so... I think I drifted for awhile with no meds

 

OK so, so far, it's not too too bad, right? I know I was offered different drugs during those years but all of them had such bad side effects, I never took more than a few pills. "non compliant" heh.

Could have saved my brain from further injury/insult, actually.

 

 

SO it gets really confusing from the age of 34 on, when I moved out of state and went thru a series of different drs,all thinking their drug cocktail was the right one I still didnt' take anything long term UNTIL I got back on lithium, and I don't know how many years I was on that. I know it was eventually discontinued and replaced with lamictal, which I hated and only took for a year at most

 

I was given so many different drugs, it was crazy, in about ever drug class.  I think the SSRIs were not started until I was about 40 yrs old, which would mean that my history of SSRI use is about 19 yrs- first it was zoloft, then celexa and then lexapro

Overlapping this, i needed sleep meds added, and then a benzo and when that didnt help, seroquel in high doses for severe anxiety and insomnia

Eventually, for some odd reason, the high (and fluctuating) dose of lexapro left me tired all the time, and I ended up avoiding ANY drug that would add to my sleepiness. I am kinda grateful for this, as it meant I never got addicted to benzos thankfully

 

I would even avoid taking my blood pressure med because I found it sedating.

 

 

I don't really know why I feel the need to do this, I think part of me wants some reassurance that I can recover, that the damage done was not too severe, but even with all the holes where I wasnt' taking much or anything at all, it's a pretty extensive  psych med history with a LOT of changes.
 

I guess I have to accept that my poor brain has been thru the wringer and that it *may* need a longer time to heal than I would like.

heck wouldn't we *all* like it to be a short time, over and done with, eh?

 

I guess I mean, that I am trying to mentally prepare myself for the long haul, so that I don't get too disappointed or upset when I have a set back or more bad waves months in the future, ya know?

 

for right now, I'm having days with little windows interspersed with small waves. My sleep deteriorated somewhat the past two nights but not  horribly so.

I am going to try to get more exercise during the day, I think that will help.

 

so, what do you think? can I be fixed?

lol

gosh I hope so!!

[Happy2Heal]

ok it's been 13 days since I last took any zyprexa and my sleep is deteriorating.

 

I don't  sleep for much more than an hour or two at *most*, wake up many times and have a hard time falling back asleep.

as I mentioned before, I try not to keep track of the time, but I am aware that I am awake a lot more than I surely want to be, and I am feeling more than a little fuzzy headed and tired.

 

I don't really know what to do. The zyprexa helped me to sleep but I am afraid of taking any more of it (I have two 2.5mgs tablets left)
It has such bad side effects, and while I am glad it helped give me an appetite when I didnt have any appetite at all and I put on a little weight, after losing too much, too fast (I felt)

it does eventually lead to carb craving and can put a ton of wt on you.

Plus I don't know what kind of sleep it even gives you, but part of me says, who cares?? it's SLEEP something I have had precious little of in a very long time.

 

The ONLY time I slept for more than 4 hrs in  a row was when I took that first pill of zyprexa

 

Like seroquel and other anti psychotics I've been on in the past, though, being able to sleep is usually a side effect that wears off quickly.

I remember needing higher and higher doses of seroquel to get to sleep and eventually even 600mgs or more did not help me sleep.

 

I just don't know what to do. I do know that the lack of sleep played a part in me ending up in the ER with SI - but there was some other stuff stressing me out at the time, plus the recent change from twice a day dosing of the lexapro to once a day.

 

I am wondering if I should just try to sleep during the day.... I don't see it working out, but it might be worth a try.

In the past I've been able to just lay down and rest mid day but have not slept (and didn't expect to, I was clearly too wound up)

I never get drowsy,  I never get that tired feeling you usually get before you fall asleep and I haven't had that feeling in well over a year. Closer to 18 mos now.

 

I will just suddenly fall asleep after laying still for awhile, usually (almost always, in fact) in front of the Tv.

It's rare for me to fall asleep any other way.

 

I have tried all different things and so far, nothings  helped- not music, relaxation tapes, darkness, white noise, melatonin, turmeric milk, etc etc

 

 

I know I have to stay calm and accept it but I am getting to the point where i think I may need to do something more pro active.

The thing is, what???

[Blondiee1915]

Hi Catnap, I am sorry about your sleep. It must be frustrating to say the least. I remember reading your earlier posts you said if you had someone over your place you would feel comfortable to fall asleep . Is this still the case you think? It looks like you tried everything and the only other thing I can think of is physical exercise - cardio to wear you out or restorative yoga ? Nothing over the counter helps either ?

[Happy2Heal]

Hi Catnap, I am sorry about your sleep. It must be frustrating to say the least. I remember reading your earlier posts you said if you had someone over your place you would feel comfortable to fall asleep . Is this still the case you think? It looks like you tried everything and the only other thing I can think of is physical exercise - cardio to wear you out or restorative yoga ? Nothing over the counter helps either ?

 

Hi Blondie

I did go to a friend's house when things were esp bad and got about 4 hrs sleep there, that was back in early Jan. But I was already so worn out that it didnt' seem to help me all that much, plus the trip to her house was extremely stressful and upsetting.

 

I don't think being alone is a problem for me now, I've gotten past that irrational fear that I had back then.

 what do you mean by over the counter, you mean like sleep aids they sell in the drug store? I think those are mostly just anti- histamines, aren't they? I know benadryl gives me severe restless legs, so I wont touch that stuff!

I haven't seen any posts here that recommend OTC sleep aids so I've never even considered them to be honest.

 

 

I have missed yoga now for 3 weeks , partly due to it being cancelled from the bad snow storms and also I didn't have $$ for the class (each one is $5 and that's a lot of money for me, esp since she takes cash only not credit)

 

but I hope to be able to get to yoga tmorrow if the storm we get tonight isnt too bad!

yeh I need exercise but it's hard to do anything indoors

i'm on the 3rd floor with 2 other apts below me and just walking across the floor shakes the windows in this VERY old bldg, so I imagine if I started to try jogging in place it would upset the other tenants

 

but maybe i can find something I can do indoors to wear myself out

 

a 30 min walk would be ideal but I can't get out, my boots got a huge split in the bottom so my feet get wet and the snow is bad out there LOL

some days nothing seems to go right but i hope tomorrow will be better!!!

how are you doing?

 

[Flowers]

Hi Catnapt

 

So sorry you are not sleeping well. It is hard to get out and get fresh air when the weather is bad - can you do your yoga at home?

 

I think I would just take whatever sleep I could get whenever or wherever it happened! Dosing in front of the TV sounds good to me.

Just lying and resting even if you can't sleep.

 

Love from Flowers xxx

[Blondiee1915]

 

Hi Catnap, I am sorry about your sleep. It must be frustrating to say the least. I remember reading your earlier posts you said if you had someone over your place you would feel comfortable to fall asleep . Is this still the case you think? It looks like you tried everything and the only other thing I can think of is physical exercise - cardio to wear you out or restorative yoga ? Nothing over the counter helps either ?

 

 

Hi Blondie

I did go to a friend's house when things were esp bad and got about 4 hrs sleep there, that was back in early Jan. But I was already so worn out that it didnt' seem to help me all that much, plus the trip to her house was extremely stressful and upsetting.

 

I don't think being alone is a problem for me now, I've gotten past that irrational fear that I had back then.

 

 what do you mean by over the counter, you mean like sleep aids they sell in the drug store? I think those are mostly just anti- histamines, aren't they? I know benadryl gives me severe restless legs, so I wont touch that stuff!

I haven't seen any posts here that recommend OTC sleep aids so I've never even considered them to be honest.

 

 

I have missed yoga now for 3 weeks , partly due to it being cancelled from the bad snow storms and also I didn't have $$ for the class (each one is $5 and that's a lot of money for me, esp since she takes cash only not credit)

 

but I hope to be able to get to yoga tmorrow if the storm we get tonight isnt too bad!

yeh I need exercise but it's hard to do anything indoors

i'm on the 3rd floor with 2 other apts below me and just walking across the floor shakes the windows in this VERY old bldg, so I imagine if I started to try jogging in place it would upset the other tenants

 

but maybe i can find something I can do indoors to wear myself out

 

a 30 min walk would be ideal but I can't get out, my boots got a huge split in the bottom so my feet get wet and the snow is bad out there LOL

some days nothing seems to go right but i hope tomorrow will be better!!!

how are you doing?

I always see these sleep over the counter commercials NyQuil maybe ? I remember one time I took Advil pm and I was knocked out. Just a thought though maybe it could be helpful . Funny how our problems are so opposite - you struggle with insomnia and I just want to sleep and have a hard time waking up . Our bodies work differently I guess . But I do recall getting hit with some insomnia briefly when I was completely off lexapro I restated shortly after so for me it was not that bad at all . 30 mins walk would be ideal I agree . I am thinking maybe some YouTube videos with light exercise something that does not make a lot of noise . When I did yoga vinyasa poses and constant movement got my heart rate up and I would even get sweaty . We are almost done with winter so hopefully once it gets warmer and nicer you can do your walks outside and not worry about weather and shoes I am doing okay. Sometimes I feel like okay I am getting through this and other days I feel so fatigued and disbalanced I get discouraged . But overall I think I am in better place than I was back in October so that is progress

[Altostrata]

catnapt, have you darkened your bedroom and tried all the sleep hygiene stuff in this topic Important topics about symptoms, including sleep problems

 

[brassmonkey]

In the USofA all the OTC (over the counter or drug store brand) sleeping aids contain benadryl.  Some people in ADWD can tolerate them while others have a very hard time using them.  They can also be very unpredictable for people in ADWD working well one night and causing insomnia the next.  Benadryl has it's own set of problems with tolerance and needs to be tapered after long term usage. I suggest being very careful with using any of them.

[Happy2Heal]

catnapt, have you darkened your bedroom and tried all the sleep hygiene stuff in this topic Important topics about symptoms, including sleep problems

 

I'm pretty sure I've tried them all but I'll go thru them again and see if there's anything else I can do

[Happy2Heal]

In the USofA all the OTC (over the counter or drug store brand) sleeping aids contain benadryl.  Some people in ADWD can tolerate them while others have a very hard time using them.  They can also be very unpredictable for people in ADWD working well one night and causing insomnia the next.  Benadryl has it's own set of problems with tolerance and needs to be tapered after long term usage. I suggest being very careful with using any of them.

yeh I cant take benadryl, even when I'm not in WD- it causes terrible restless leg syndrome and never helped me sleep, only made me feel groggy but the restless legs made it impossible to sleep (I was given Rx benadryl for a bad allergic reaction to something in the past)

[Happy2Heal]

OK I'm stuck. I'd really appreciate some advise as I try to make a very difficult decision.

 

I couldn't get to sleep last night and ended up taking one of the zyprexa tablets at 3:30 am. (my sleep has steadily been declining)

 

I feel asleep maybe 2hrs later (I was playing a long CD and had to re start it, so I know it was quite awhile before I fell asleep
When I woke up it was about 9 am, I only got about 3 1/2 hrs sleep after taking the pill, but at least I got some sleep, and I REALLY needed it. I've been having trouble controlling the neuro emotions, esp anger.

 

So, here I am, wondering what the heck to do next.

I don't see taking zyprexa long term as a solution.  It *does* make me feel a lot better, a lot more grounded in my own body, and just clearer in my thinking overall. How it does this, who knows, but it's mostly  a good thing.

 

but I can't take it long term, due to the terrible side effects.

 

I have an appt next month with an NP and I don't know what to do. I strongly suspect she'll know nothing about withdrawal  but she was kind enough to give me the lowest dose of zyprexa that comes in pill form, so that was good.

 

I am wondering if I should try to updose the lexapro to see if my sleep improves.

 

to recap part of my WD journey:
I had been on 2.5mgs from around Dec of 2015 to May of 2106 and was able to get enough sleep during that period of time. It wasn't great sleep, I woke up a lot but I was able to sleep.

 

I jumped off at 2.5mgs in late May, made it thru the summer ok (odd sleep hours, but I got 5 to 6 hrs a night, so that was ok)
Since Sept of 2106, my sleep has been very very bad. no more than 4hrs in a row, at best, waking up many times, having trouble getting back to sleep. (only once did I sleep 6 hrs in a row and that was after taking zyprexa)

 

I reinstated in Oct and have been at 0.3 mgs and while most of the WD had calmed down, sleeping did not improve much and is now getting worse

 

ok, so on Jan 26th I tapered from 0.3 mgs to 0.27

 

so-

do you think I should go back up to 0.3 and see if my sleep improves?


or do you think I should keep using the zyprexa (assuming I can get more of it, that is) as a rescue sleep aid?

 

or is there a "door number 3"?

 

I just don't know what to do.

I can't keep going with this little sleep, it's gotten to the point where that's all I think about, and that's not helping either

 

 

 

thanks in advance for any input

[Happy2Heal]

had to run out to catch a bus this morning so my lexapro was 4 hrs late!
I hope this doesn't mess me up too bad

 

:/

[Blondiee1915]

Hi Catnapt,

Hopefully 4 hour delay will not cause you trouble.

As far as what to do in your earlier post. I think you definitely need some sort of a solution to deal with the insomnia . It looks like it is a cycle where you are okay then get no sleep and then start having these dark thoughts which from what I read are triggered by lack of sleep and then you are in a very bad place and need zyprexa and or even a trip to ER. You take zyprexa and it helps you fee better and sleep but the side effects are terrible so that is not something you want to take consistently from my understanding. It also seems like you tried the suggested alternatives. I am not sure if therapy can help with insomnia, I am sure it can but it will probably take time . I think that if .30 dose of lexapro was okay for you and you slept you should try to increase . Again it is a tough spot . But I feel like you might end up getting very sleep deprived again and having these thoughts and then have to take zyprexa and same cycle all over again. Just my thought .

Hope you are doing better

b

[Happy2Heal]

*sigh*
just when I decide I really need to get out and socialize more, I get a call from the Sr Center telling me that they "can't use me" for the Social Butterflies" inter generational pen pal group because I missed too many meetings. I feel like a failure.

 

I have to admit, I'm just not feeling that "sociable" but I do like to be out and around other people, even if I don't engage in conversation.

[Happy2Heal]

Hi Catnapt,

Hopefully 4 hour delay will not cause you trouble.

As far as what to do in your earlier post. I think you definitely need some sort of a solution to deal with the insomnia . It looks like it is a cycle where you are okay then get no sleep and then start having these dark thoughts which from what I read are triggered by lack of sleep and then you are in a very bad place and need zyprexa and or even a trip to ER. You take zyprexa and it helps you fee better and sleep but the side effects are terrible so that is not something you want to take consistently from my understanding. It also seems like you tried the suggested alternatives. I am not sure if therapy can help with insomnia, I am sure it can but it will probably take time . I think that if .30 dose of lexapro was okay for you and you slept you should try to increase . Again it is a tough spot . But I feel like you might end up getting very sleep deprived again and having these thoughts and then have to take zyprexa and same cycle all over again. Just my thought .

Hope you are doing better

b

 

Hi thanks Blondie

 

Yes you've summarized things very well, thank you for that!! summarizing is not one of my strengths.

I am going to just wait a bit and see what happens. I think I got a decent amnt of sleep last night, I know I slept off and on and I did not have ANY cortisol spike this morning and only the fainest flicker of anxiety so that was GREAT.

 

as much as I hate looking back (it scares me and reminds me of how bad things were; I worry they will get that way again) I have to remind myself that for every bad wave, I get a good sized window

 

and that after every bad wave, something else seems to be "more healed" when the wave is over.

of course, that may be from the zyprexa and maybe I will crash again once the effects wear off, I dont know.

 

although I took the zyprexa very irregularly, there does seem to be a pattern: I would get about 5 or 6 tolerable days after the last dose before I felt the need to take more.

 

SO....

I took 2.5mgs of zyprexa on Feb 16th, by Feb 21-22, I should anticipate feeling desperate and FIND WAYS to get thru it, right?

 

I mean, the alternative is to bounce my poor brain around even more, taking a dose here and a dose there, and that can't be good.

 

I really hate this, I have NEVER been a consistent , routine oriented type of person, NEVER. I guess I am going to finally have to LEARN to be that kind of a person, If I am ever to get thru all this

 

I mean, over all, I am SO far ahead of where I was just 4 mos ago. I need to keep reminding myself that that means I am HEALING

and not believe the lies my brain tells me during a wave, that things are bad and that they will never be better

because that is just not true

 

thanks so much for stopping by, are you feeling any less fatigued these days?

[Blondiee1915]

You will be okay! You have gone through so much and are doing much better than 4 months ago. So yes keep the positivity and don't let your brain trick you .

I am doing so so. My biggest problem is fatigue . I am so exhausted I can't take it. I meant to ask you, how long did you fatigue lasted ? I remember reading your earlier posts and you mentioned sleeping a lot . I know everyone is different but just wanted to check.

[Happy2Heal]

I am doing so so. My biggest problem is fatigue . I am so exhausted I can't take it. I meant to ask you, how long did you fatigue lasted ? I remember reading your earlier posts and you mentioned sleeping a lot . I know everyone is different but just wanted to check.

thanks so much for the vote of confidence.

 

sorry to hear you are still dealing with the fatigue. I actually did not have fatigue as a WD symptom, I had it while I was taking full doses of the lexapro!!

 

most ppl say this seems odd, and when I told the dr that I thought that my over sleeping was the lexapro, she would insist that it must be that I was depressed, but I know what depression feels like and I was NOT depressed.

Discouraged that I couldn't stay awake to do the things I wanted to do, yes, but not depressed.

that fatigue was one of my main reasons for wanting to go off the lexapro!

 

I have days now, when I'm unable to sleep at all, and I'm kicking myself, thinking I didn't know how good I had it back then, but as I'm sure you'll agree, sleeping your life away is not really something to envy.

 

I am sorry you're still struggling with it.

I wonder now if the lexapro was no longer working for me ("poop out") and that I was actually in withdrawal even then, but didn't know it?

 

I know that I went from sleeping a lot, to not being able to sleep at ALL when I went (too quickly) down from 20mgs (or more, I dont' remember, It might have been 30) to 2.5 from June of 2105 to Dec 2105, so yeh, just 5 mos and by the time I got to either zero or 2.5 and that's when I was not able to get to sleep at all and had horrendous rages.

I saw my PCP and was given some hypertension med to help with sleep, and it was while googling that med, that I found SA and realized that the insomnia and rages were from a too fast taper off the lexapro.

I went back on 2.5mgs of lexapro and while I was on that dose, my sleep was ok. not wonderful but I could sleep

 

boy do I miss those days! heh.

 

anyway, I don't know why I had fatigue while on the lexapro, but I can tell you, that it went away while I was going down in dose, from sleeping up to 20hrs a day, to not sleeping at all! :/

kind flipped that whole thing upside down.

 

It could be that the fatigue was a symptom of the drug no longer working (after all I'd been on it for 12 yrs or so by then)

I just don't know

 

sadly, this probably does not help you at all.

 

it does seem, though, that getting to the lower doses of these meds is when  ppl have insomnia, so hopefully if you taper VERY carefully, you'll get to a place where you no longer need to sleep as much, but avoid getting to the place where you can't sleep at all.

 

cuz believe me, it's no fun either.

 

you might want to think of this as your time to save up some zzz's, just in case

[Happy2Heal]

found this interesting article about sleep that ppl might be interested in:

https://www.helpguide.org/harvard/biology-of-sleep-circadian-rhythms-sleep-stages.htm

[Happy2Heal]

ok went back over my history of psych drugs and it's still not right!
I wish I could remember what happened when.

 

but I guess it's not going to change a whole lot going forward.

 

TODAY I am in the middle of a wide open window, one like nothing I've had in the past.

Just when I think none of the windows can be better than the last one, I get one that IS better. I am more in my own body today and in my own mind, a lot of the fears that I've been having are gone, and my mind is seeming a lot clearer. It still does get better as the day goes on, something I need to keep in mind, since I used to do my budgeting and bill paying in the morning, and now it appears safer to do those sorts of things later in the day.

 

yay!!!!!!!!!!!

 

another window!
I also seem to have slept more the past few nights.

I''m trying not to get too worried about a potential crash from that last dose of zyprexa that I took on, what day was it? the 9th. it's now been 9 days and I seem to be doing ok.

 

 

Oh I hope I remember this day when the next wave hits!!
 

I made a graph (after seeing one posted here on someone else's thread) to chart my tapering, and after looking it over, I think it's best for me to hold for a VERY long time, and by that I mean, maybe as long as 10 months.

I arrived at that number by adding the number of months where I was at zero lexapro (about 4) to the number of months when I did my first super rapid taper (6 mos)
I think my brain deserves to have a break to make up for those mistakes.

 

Of course I'll revisit this decision as time goes on.

 

but yeh, for those of you following my journey, I may whine and b**** a LOT when I'm in a wave, but they really are not nearly as bad as before and so far, knock on wood, they are always followed by a window, even if it's just a day or a part of a day.

 

I do a LOT better when I am eating "clean" so if you're thinking about changing your diet, giving up caffeine, sugar, processed foods, etc, I really do believe it helps.

and even if it doesn't, what do you have to lose?

speaking of losing, I am at my lowest wt since I was 35 yrs old!! I am just about 5-6 lbs away from being a normal wt!! I have been obese or very overweight for most of the past 25 yrs, since going on SSRIs  and all those other drugs.

 

My cholesterol is awesome, my marker for inflammation is super low, and my liver function tests are almost normal. I never really thought all this was possible, I was aiming for a wt of 155lbs, which is still over wt

I am now around 146 or so, and I know I can get lower, once I start to exercise more.

 

oh this was supposed to be a short post! I guess I just don't have short posts in me :/

[LexAnger]

Awesome!

We all know the thinking in a wave is from what the drug did to the brain. Similarly when we are in a window so just let it be until we have our own thinking back.

 

Good math on figuring number of months for holding.

 

Windows and waves is what you are going through and the process of healing. All normal really, with patience and time, all waves will get smaller eventually totally disappear.

 

Enjoy the good day as much as possible.

 

Hugs,

Lex

[Happy2Heal]

thanks so much Lex

yes I'm really enjoying today!

I hope you're doing better, I should check in and see...

[KarenB]

Hi Catnapt,

 

I just read Lorinewmi's thoughtful reply to you in her thread, and I had something to add, so thought I'd put it here for you instead. 

 

Can't remember if you practice Emotional Freedom Technique, but they have statements for people to say which help to change their approach to difficult issues. 

 

So for your issue of sleep, you might say 'Even if I get no sleep tonight, I deeply and completely love and accept myself.'  EFT uses tapping and other methods (which you can google if interested) to help the message to 'stick' but I found that even just phrasing things with that level of unconditional love was very effective. 

[Happy2Heal]

Hi Catnapt,

 

I just read Lorinewmi's thoughtful reply to you in her thread, and I had something to add, so thought I'd put it here for you instead. 

 

Can't remember if you practice Emotional Freedom Technique, but they have statements for people to say which help to change their approach to difficult issues. 

 

So for your issue of sleep, you might say 'Even if I get no sleep tonight, I deeply and completely love and accept myself.'  EFT uses tapping and other methods (which you can google if interested) to help the message to 'stick' but I found that even just phrasing things with that level of unconditional love was very effective. 

 

 

thanks for stopping by Karen,

I don't know why I'm so afraid to mention this, boy WD has made me so superstitious! but it appears that I've had some decent sleep the past 3 nights.

OR it could be that because the wave has abated, when I am awake, I am not in so much distress, so I don't mind as much.

I think that's really my main issue with not sleeping. If I was awake and felt well, or at least "ok", then I don't mind being awake. it just makes the day longer.

But when I"m in a wave, it's just so many more added hours of misery.

Sleep is a good escape. :/

 

I am trying to love myself, just in general, but it's hard for me. I often feel very inadequate and frankly un-lovable.

Learning to love myself is probably the hardest thing I have to do going forward, also learning to forgive myself.

 

I know I need to do this, though, because I am seeing that it's hard to have compassion for others if you don't first have it for yourself

 

I'd also like to take this time to apologize for some rather curt posts I've made, not too far back, asking ppl not to contact me, etc.

I feel I owe you all an explanation.

I want to apologize again, if I didn't already, for being so impatient and for my wish for no one to contact me, and esp for a very curt post I made to our dear AliG, basically snapping at her over a misunderstanding that was clearly my fault.

 

I was going thru a time when I felt like I was wide open and that anything anyone said to me was literally being absorbed into my body and my mind and it terrified me. I was afraid that someone was going to say something that would hurt me or scare me more than I was already scared.

I can't even explain it but I was afraid of my own thoughts and afraid of other ppls words, as if they could do me serious bodily harm.

 

It sounds crazy now, but that is what I was going thru. I also had some neuro emotions and was flying off the handle over the least little thing. I was misinterpreting or even not hearing/reading what ppl were saying/writing and getting all paranoid that ppl were out to cause me harm.

 

I apologize to anyone who was upset or hurt by my posts during that period of time. It wasn't my wish to hurt anyone or sound ungrateful for all the wonderful and warm support that I've gotten here. I am very sorry, I should have stayed away, but at the same time, I really wanted the continued support.

I know, I don't make sense sometimes, not even to myself!!

[Happy2Heal]

 

another window!

I also seem to have slept more the past few nights.

I''m trying not to get too worried about a potential crash from that last dose of zyprexa that I took on, what day was it? the 9th. it's now been 9 days and I seem to be doing ok.

 

oh wow it's bad when you have to quote yourself and realize just how out of it and impaired I really am!!

I posted that just yesterday while I *thought* I was doing really well!

 

I took zyprexa at 3 am on the 16th!!!

it's only been a few days and I already forgot

 

darn, I hope that doesn't mean that my windows are just from the zyprexa, and it's going to wear off and I'll crash again

I get super anxious just typing this, I'm gonna have to double down on meditation and stuff

 

 

oh geez, just when I think I might be in the clear.

 

*sigh*

 

well, I'm going to have to think positively about it, and assume that things will be fine.

 

I see the psych NP March 7th to discuss maybe using the zyprexa as a rescue med, although I really really do not want to be using it (or any other drug) at all.

[Survivor1]

you may want to rethink using zyprexa as rescue med.  I used seroquel as a rescue med when I rapid tapered trazodone, and ended up having withdrawal from it.  I have reinstated and hoping to stabilize.

 

I think you should decide either to be off it completely; or to take a small dose of it, stabilize and slowly taper off.

 

Best wishes.

 

Edited January 23, 2022 by ChessieCat
removed member name

[Happy2Heal]

  

On 2/20/2017 at 2:21 AM, Survivor1 said:

you may want to rethink using zyprexa as rescue med.  I used seroquel as a rescue med when I rapid tapered trazodone, and ended up having withdrawal from it.  I have reinstated and hoping to stabilize.

 

I think you should decide either to be off it completely; or to take a small dose of it, stabilize and slowly taper off.

 

Best wishes.

 

 

 

thanks so much for stopping by and for your input.

 

 

Yes, I agree.  When I realized this morning that it's only been since the 16th that I took a dose of zyprexa, I knew I had make a decision, either get off it completely or take a small dose of it and then have to taper off it later.

 

Oy!! what have I done??

 

I don't regret getting the prescription for zyprexa, I really don't think I would be here if I hadn't.

but yes, I've definitely put myself in a "Now what?!?!" situation, haven't I?

 

the problem now is: I don't have enough zyprexa left to take it daily and I don't see the NP who Rxed it til March 7th. She's refusing to Rx any more without actually seeing me, as she's actually never seen me, she only Rxed it because they started me on it at the ER and I was doing well on it, so she agreed to continue it so I didn't "relapse". They have me down as having a brief depression, I guess, at least that's what it says on the ER paperwork.

 

I guess that basically forces me to go off it. I have four tablets, should I just cut them into quarters and take one each day? I don't know how to taper with 2.5mg tablets of zyprexa. I have never tapered off this med, I"ve only CTed off it

 

I have taken it in the past several times to pull me out of a similar (although not nearly as bad) situation, and stopped it CT without noticing any thing major, or perhaps with time, I've just forgotten.

I didn't know anything about withdrawal in the past, so I wouldn't have been looking for anything, anyway.

 

Edited January 23, 2022 by ChessieCat
changed quote after member name change

[Survivor1]

Perhaps you could explain to the doc that you are trying to taper off, and need a prescription for only until you see her on 03/07? I hope something works out for you.