Zero: You could do more harm than good

[Zero]

Hello everyone,

 

I did not want to write here, because I consider this forum rather conservative, but someone should tell you that taking pills could be equally harmful as not taking them (which is encouraged here).

 

Some personal scraps. Zoloft was pill of mine. I had been popping it for roughly 6 years, until the end of 2014. I believe sertraline wreaked havock in my neuroendocrine systems, triggered Hashimoto's thyroiditis and brought me at the very edge of secondary hypogonadism. Results was quite obvious: PSSD, heavy ED, no libido. However I must admit I really liked those pills. I was a peaceful, warm person of the former new age.

 

Ok, sad jokes aside. I am in a second year of my recovery, I have tried almost everything, my latest discovery is Mianserin and I'll stick to it, precisely I'll stick to 60mg of it alongside with heavy load of Ginkgo Biloba.

 

Now very serious.

 

I am not the smartest of smart, but I will try to be a devil's advocate at least in this topic. I have been floating around for some time, enough to notice kind, but rather orthodox profile of this place, so I assume my story would not be hearthy welcome here, since I oppose clean recovery for many reasons. Before I start I want to say I could be gravely wrong, so took it with some ice.

 

Nevertheless. Daily thyroxine pills forced me to be a pill-popper, so I thought if I could swallow one, I could swallow fifteen as well. And I did. I have some experience in PSSD, but I will not openly write here much about drugs, since I respect the local rules, but I strongly disagree with them.

 

If one has only mild symptoms, go green and clean, it is perfectly fine. However softly forcing person with substantial alterations into drugless recovery is unethical and unwise, yet seemingly safe for forum authorities. Time is most precious what I have and I can not accept being put on 6 year more clean recovery boat. Loosing best of my years in the name of what? Absolute truth? There are drugs, poisons, antidotes. Dose (and time as I painfully noticed) could make lifesaving pill a poison. Telling everyone around here a priori that white pills are bad is from my point of view unacceptable. I agree that taking Clomid was somewhat risky, but encouraging to not taking is irresponsible. It is somewhat hypothetical, but I expect that kind of advice. Depression and stress lowers stuff like NGF, BNGF, decreases hippocampal size and so on, meaning it delays recovery. Acute stress makes my PSSD instantly worse, so I am taking Ginkgo which is reported to protect 5-HT1A receptors. I believe Mianserin is an antidote for me and I really appreciate stories like that from LouisSyfer. Chemical stuff which lowers cortisol, increases testosterone, supposedly disinhibits dopamine is more important than pleasant reassuring story like "I have recovered after 5 years, it was hard, but eventually I've made it" Waiting and thinking about being permanently damaged could shred one's brain into pieces. Moreover, you deprive people of placebo, give them at least Ginkgo which is famous for its delayed benefits, glass of milk, whatever. 

 

What I am trying to say is that natural recovery should not be so strong advertised here. I am not able to imagine myself being convinced to drugless recovery. Waiting. Loosing time and possibly brain tissue, since simple thought of being sexually incapable is absolutely devasting for a man. 

 

For now I am doing good. Mianserin helped me a lot. I know perfectly it could damage me, but also could save my life and I am fine with this. I am not saying try it, but also I am not saying the opposite.

 

Best regards, I wish you all hope and recovery as painless as possible.

 

 

 

Edited July 19, 2016 by scallywag
tags added

[clearday]

Zoloft was pill of mine. I had been popping it for roughly 6 years, until the end of 2014. I believe sertraline wreaked havock in my neuroendocrine systems, triggered Hashimoto's thyroiditis and brought me at the very edge of secondary hypogonadism. Results was quite obvious: PSSD, heavy ED, no libido. 

 

Forcing person with substantial alterations into drugless recovery is unethical and unwise, yet seemingly safe for forum authorities. 

 

Wow, sorry to hear that Zoloft was so damaging to you. 

 

This is a website for people who have decided on their own that they would like to come off these damaging medications. 

 

This website advocates "slow, simple, and stable" management of recovery from these medications.

 

It is not "drugless" recovery, as you suggest; in fact, on here they suggest that people conduct very slow tapers off their medications, which last can for years. Many of the people using this website are still ON their medications, often for years, conducting a very slow taper. They compare notes and help each other through this process. 

 

Doctors usually tell their patients to taper off their medications in a month or so. On here, they suggest a tapering program which lasts for much longer than that.

 

Of course, no one is being "forced" to do anything on this forum. People come here and actually become much more capable of making truly informed decisions about the potential effects of AD medications than they were during the brief doctor's office visit that wound up putting them on these drugs in the first place. That seems to be the universally reported experience of thousands of those who were horribly damaged by these powerful AD drugs. People on here make their decisions based 100% on their own choice. 

 

And of course, no one other than a doctor should ever suggest to someone to try other drugs to deal with their problems. On here they always advise someone to consult a doctor if they want to go on other medications. If a person is on their medication and happy with it, that is fine. This is a website to help those who have chosen to come off the medications, for whatever reason.

 

Here, they simply speak from a huge base of experience in order to more properly manage recovery from these drugs.

 

Clearly, from reading the thousands of individual accounts of using prescription AD drugs under the direction of a doctor - on this and so many other Internet websites - these drugs have done much more harm than good, for the people adversely affected by them.

[Altostrata]

Welcome, Zero.

 

As clearday said, people come here for information about going off their drugs. No one is forced to do anything. Each person can make his own decisions, if they don't care for the advice they get here, they could simply stop visiting.

 

We are also extremely explicit about this: To go off drugs, you must be able to manage your symptoms, psychological or otherwise, without them. If you cannot manage your symptoms with non-drug means, you are not ready to go off drugs. This may apply to you.

 

You may take any drugs you wish. There are plenty of doctors who will be happy to prescribe psychiatric drugs, no psychiatric disorder required. If you want to talk about them, you may find PatientsLikeMe.com or depressionforums.org more to your liking.

[Zero]

I owe you a small update. I was (and probably I am) a fool. Mianserin still has my admiration, although I'm developing gynecomastia, it needs to be paired with Arimidex. I've mentioned fool - gross of psy active supps and herbs elevate serotonin, taking them is risky, messing with some shady stuff is stupid, even garlic could do some harm. Diet with good multivitamins and fish oil, attitude and exercises are most important things. I'll give a last try to shilajit and inositol (I couldn't get uridine though), everything else seems to be a waste of money.

[Altostrata]

Is gynecomastia a known side effect of mianserin? What does Arimidex do?

[Hopefull]

Hi Zero,

 

Some people don't tolerate any type of supplements due to Antidepressant sentisizing the nervous system.

I have found that supplements are waste of money.

Unfortunately time is a healer and healing naturally is the way to go, not by choice but by necessity.

Best wishes, Hopefull.

[Zero]

Mianserin increases testosterone (at least mine), which in part is converted into estradiol. Arimidex blocks excessive conversion. However I'm not 100% sure if it's real gynecomastia, or just fresh fat deposits due to eating like there is no tomorrow, although nipples feels weird.

 

Time will show. I can't go natural regarding endocrine system, Mianserin has its side effects, but overall it's a wonder drug. My libido returned (wiped by Arimidex though), genitals are rejuvenated, I don't feel well, but I believe it's temporary. Nervous system is another story, tinkering there seems to be pointless, especially if its already broken.

[buggedout]

Welcome to the forum, and good luck with your chemical concoction!

[Altostrata]

It is a terrible, terrible idea to try to fix iatrogenic disruption of the endocrine system by taking another drug that cause disruption of the endocrine system.

 

If I were you, rather than adding another drug with unanticipated side effects, I'd consider reducing mianserin dosage to reduce the adverse effects.

[btdt]

High Zero I agree with Alto... 

 

I take it your young and don't have time to fool around just want to get to your life asap I understand that and believe me no matter the age everybody here wants the same thing you do.  

There use to be a few other withdrawal websites that talked a lot about supplements .. I believe people there tried testosterone and just about every supplement known to man.  They are no longer on the web but if they were you could go there and read them and I would send you the links Since the are gone let me say there are some people here who started at those other sites and for years watched people try this and that to encourage faster healing we all watched hopeful.  All those years and many people trying many things there are few things that actually helped wd. If you want to see what has helped you will find it in the self care tab... not much really fish oil epson salts which is still magnesium.. a few others here and there... no magic bullet as a cure yet that anyone has found.  I think Alto said it here once find a cure and we will shut this down and get on with it. 

 

Still there are other things we have learned over the years and what Alto said above is gold... 

 

"It is a terrible, terrible idea to try to fix iatrogenic disruption of the endocrine system by taking another drug that cause disruption of the endocrine system."

 

The oldest site I know of started in 2004 so we are talking years of people from all over the world seeing various doctors trying ease and stop wd and side effects.. anything that has been the least bit useful you will find here. I know the lure of the new drug the new magic bullet... I know it well I was drugged for 18 years have been messing around with cold turkey withdrawal for 9 more years.  As one antidepressant fails and/or adds symptoms that need treating a new magic wonder drug will always be presented.. that was my experience for years. I drank the cool aid a long long long time and piper needs to be paid the longer you take the drugs the more drugs you will need to treat the side effects and damage of the previous drugs.  Sorry but that is how I see it now looking back. 

 

Nobody here has any delusions of saving the world or making all people not take their pills or stop them taking the new magic bullet ... we know how many people are taking these drug and we know we will not stop them ... we are the ones who have already lived where you are ... some maybe where your headed depending on where you go... no matter what you next move is there is likely somebody around here who has already done it... maybe a different drug name but really there are not many actually new drugs... when somebody comes here to this corner of the world we don't want to see them make big mistakes that same mistakes that hurt us .. that damaged our lives. 

 

yes it is hard to admit that a drug damaged you and it will take a long time to over come it... years even.. that is hard... 

 

Want to know what is harder taking drugs for 18 years messing with wd for 9 more and seeing another human who may be headed down the same path ...

for lack of knowledge... 

when the knowledge is right here for you to read... 

 

Stick around read some talk to people... maybe you came here by mistake but maybe not maybe here is just where you need to be. 

 

I wish you peace

[Zero]

@Altostrata

@btdt

 

Yesterday I thought again I can outsmart myself, you guys are obviously right. Thx for a chilling. Should cut my dose in the first place. However I had a very positive response to mianserin from day one, so I'll stick to it for some time, that drug had pulled me out from a black abbys of despair, that's why my first post here was somewhat kind of "you can't kill the king of the hill". Funny. Blame neurotransmitters.

 

Two words about aromatase inhibitors for someone reading this (tried also exemetasane) - I do not recommend them. I should know this before. I believe that noticeable hormonal deficiencies should be gently corrected, but definitely not with an aromatase inhibitor. Looks like testosterone is overrated (same as serotonin btw) - estradiol has a much greater impact on libido and erection strenght, at least its acute fluctuations. That's my second lesson and hopefully the last one.

 

However, SSRIs are not exclusively about a brain, for example Zoloft, if I'm correct was suspected to cause a "hostile actions" to testicles, don't want to dig further though. Testicular atrophy doesn't sound pleasing, so although I could perfectly accept idea of leaving my brain alone, I can't say the same about my balls. I think Mianserin does its job here, if not then Clomid dosed really reasonably.

[Zero]

Small update.

 

I'm doing slowly but steadily better almost drug free. Still, I don't recommend being 100% clean, have to figure out some things, try some more stuff, like Forskolin and ALA, settle with something (Ginkgo probably) and relax.

 

Be careful with herbs/drugs. Mianserin turned out to be toxic (lowered lymphocyte count) which could be really dangerous, lately I've tried Berberine with Rhodiola, don't know why but that combo (or exclusively Berberine) REALLY decreased my heart rate and scared sh*t out of me.

 

I was concerned about ******** size and function, they have increased in volume, hard to say it was restart (thanks to Mianserin) or not. I didn't make any labs so far.

[ang]

Drug free? Gosh, welcome zero, I aint drug free, and I been at this healing thing for years. If you are happy where you are at, stick with it, if you want to be ""drug free""

that is your choice for some time in the future.

 

Are you working, is your life stable? They are the real important things in this world.

 

Anyway welcome to the site.

 

Oh I gave up most of my drugs (too quickly) due to stuffed liver, stage 3a kidney disease, high blood pressure, and high cholesterol, all those are gone now, along with most of the drugs.

Might take a bit longer to regain my brain, but I am surviving, and grateful for it.

[Zero]

I'm working, still it's far from ok. My life doesn't help in recovery, l'm still derealized after death of my father, I wanted to move to Australia once, but now I feel I'm anchored and without motivation (don't blame SSRIs here). 

 

I don't take Rx stuff, I feel hard drugs are unnecessary at least for now. Definitely something has changed, I respond differently to stuff like Ginkgo, now it is very calming and soothing, more "tuned" with my body, with some "spirit" and I like it.

 

All in all it's getting better, which is amazing.

[Zero]

I have done some unbelevably stupid and irresponsible thing. Three weeks ago I took LSD which turned my sexual capabilities literally to zero and triggered anxiety for days. I thought that all my precious progress regardning ssri withdrawal was lost exclusively because of my stupidity. These were the worst days in my life, moreover I can't take Mianserin anymore, so it was like a double punch, or rather knockdown. I was fully aware that MDMA is toxic, but LSD was surrounded by a kind of "divine" halo, clearly some kind of demon possesed me that day, god it was so stupid, even more because I was recovering really, realy nicely.

 

Taking LSD was an act of sheer stupidity, however I understand now what I've gained so far. I'm not talking about spiritual insights, nor the (bad) trip, which I believed then was developing serotonin syndrome, I thought I could die that day, got a real glimpse of autism and other scary things. I took anti-serotonin drugs and benzos, didn't want to call an emergency, so I can't say if it was only a "nightmare" or not. I guess it doesn't matter much today.

 

All in all I'm ok and alive - which is sweet - but It would be unfair to say I'm happy only because I haven't successfully spoiled my brain.

 

Things gradually improves. I am less flat and hollow, simple things start to fascinate me again, I'm interested in doing some stuff, watching a documentary started again to trigger some kind of passion, empathy, kind of "being in" feeling. I feel that emotions dead for years are returning, kind of late, but I welcome them happily despite still present derealization and depression to some extent. Libido and enjoyment also slowly returns. I'm not healed, not recovered by any means, but I feel more human and more like a happy, excited about things kid.

 

I don't take drugs, except thyroid hormones because of Hasimoto. I've been on Mianserin and Buspar because of LSD only, I noticed that Mianserin act somewhat differently now, I still advocate using this drug in case of protracted withdrawal from ssris mandatory with frequent blood test because of possible and not so uncommon blood dyscrasias, but at this point of time this drug kills my libido, however is still beneficial regarding unblocking HPT axis and boosting sex steroids I suppose.

 

Btw. very interesting study regarding sex steroids:

 

Hormone replacement with 17β-estradiol plus dihydrotestosterone restores male sexual behavior in rats treated neonatally with clomipramine.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25449595

 

I strongly believe that sexual health extends into often overlooked areas like passion, involvement, interest in things, capability of being enjoyed, etc. So boosting steroids isn't about muscles, or sexuality exclusively, also it's not about steady testosterone or estradiol levels, thinking about that hormones as a "fuel for sex and muscles" is wrong. This study basically means that sex steroids heal damage done by a drug with strong serotonin reuptake inhibiting properties. According to my experiences it's true, when I started to develop a "man-boobs" my libido was improving, on the other side taking anti-estradiol drug killed it. Mianserin seems to be the best in that department, possibly Clomid/Tamoxifen. Reffering to the title of this topic I believe some of you make a mistake thinking about steroid boosting meds as irrelevant and "bad" even, or especially when having testosterone in healthy reference.

 

Overall I can't say officially I'm recovered, but personally I feel I am in good enough shape. I could almost forget about all that bad things, I feel that the largest part of this horrible hulk belongs to the past now, so I'm not forced to pop wonky chemicals in order to fix things.

[Zero]

Well..I do not recommend Clomid. Seems to be serotonergic hence my present (and past) anxiety. Definitely on my "don't take it anymore" list.

[Zero]

I've fu*ked myself severely, ultimately and permanently with vit. K(!) and just one(!) more extra pill of first generation antipsychotic, so please be careful with ANY chemicals. God gave me literally everything (and I mean EVERYTHING) and I've lost it all due to my pride, stupidity, I guess pill-addiction, miserable theorycrafting and unlimited access to prescription drugs. Was self-medicating SSRI like a fool for years despite the fact that my sexuality, my emotions and passions was all slowly fading. Should notice that way earlier.

 

I'd love to commit suicide, or just simply to die, but I'm deeply afraid of hell and a pool of everlasting fire, so had to wait like a 50 years (18 000 days) until I die naturally. It's a hell lot of time.

 

Please don't be fool like me. God please forgive. My last post. Live long and prosper 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wUk_Dqiow0A

 

 

 

[powerback]

1 hour ago, Zero said:

I've fu*ked myself severely, ultimately and permanently with vit. K(!) and just one(!) more extra pill of first generation antipsychotic, so please be careful with ANY chemicals. God gave me literally everything (and I mean EVERYTHING) and I've lost it all due to my pride, stupidity, I guess pill-addiction, miserable theorycrafting and unlimited access to prescription drugs. Was self-medicating SSRI like a fool for years despite the fact that my sexuality, my emotions and passions was all slowly fading. Should notice that way earlier.

 

I'd love to commit suicide, or just simply to die, but I'm deeply afraid of hell and a pool of everlasting fire, so had to wait like a 50 years (18 000 days) until I die naturally. It's a hell lot of time.

 

Please don't be fool like me. God please forgive. My last post. Live long and prosper 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wUk_Dqiow0A

 

 

 

I'm with you all the way Zero .we walk through hell together ,when  travelling through hell just  just keep going [Winston Churchill]

 

its not a misery competition my friend but dam I've tested my limits with things for many years ,I'm finding compassion for myself ,I urge you to do the same .

we make mistakes and learn everyday no shame in that. its just life I reckon I'm leaning.

peace will come our way ,we deserve it .we got to keep up the fight ,we have  so much to offer the world because our suffering .

PB

[miT]

1 hour ago, powerback said:

we got to keep up the fight ,we have  so much to offer the world because our suffering .

PB

 

True. The more hopeless the situation, the closer to surrender. Life didn't create us to resist life.

[daisies]

It’s perfectly normal to feel distress as you’re just starting to realize that you’ve been spending a fortune on foods and supplements that only improve the well-being of people who make zillions by selling you snake oil - properly packaged, reformulated and rebranded for the 21st century, of course. 

What works for my anxiety is nothing but shilajit essence tea* (a mineral pitch, https://purblack.com/mineral-pitch-resin-modern-day-science-traditional-medicine/ ).
Started using taking it 5 years ago. Not one day off and have never felt better physically, mentally and  with family relationships . 
This IS the natural way.

 

* MOD NOTE:  Remember to use caution when trying anything new.  Do your own research.  Make only one change at a time.  Start with a small amount to test to see how you react.

 

Edited May 21, 2019 by ChessieCat
added mod note