Odwina: What if paxil reinstatement fails?

[Odwina]

After a 3.5 months break from paxil - please see my history in my signature -  which was bearable as I had a very good acupuncture treatment abroad - my withdrawal became unbearable, I am suicidal, I am terribly afraid, I do not know how to get out of this or if I can ever get out and this is the very end. I have no medical support here in France, only doctors knowing the official information delivered to them by GKS drug company. It was possible to have this 3.5 month break only with acupuncture, but here, it is a small town, I tried to find some decent acupuncturists, no chance, their knowledge is very limited, although they received exactly the spots to be used, they cannot do it, I have no results here. But maybe this acupuncture only hid somehow my WD, I do not know. Because last week (I returned to Concarneau, my home in France on 14 February) it became unbearable.

 

I made reinstatement last Sat, 20 Feb, I simply had no other choice although I hate now the paxil, by subtracting 10% of paxil for every month of break as I read. It is still extremely bad after one week. Do you have any idea when and if WD symptoms can alleviate? Or is it to late? And what can it happen if it is too late?

 

Please, if I am quite confuse and not clear enough, just ask for more details, I really need some advice from experience.

 

Thanks a lot all of you!

[Ali4]

How long have you been off Paxil almost 4 months? Did you stop cold turkey? Did you taper? How much did you reinstate? It would be helpful if you filled in your drug sig with all that info so people can get a better understanding of what's going on.

[Odwina]

Hello Ali,

 

Thank you very much for your questions, they really need my answers in order for you to advise me. I put this information in my signature, I thought it would appear to the others, I can't see it, so maybe I did something wrong.

 

So, I was on paxil for about 20 years (and 5 years before something else, before paxil was invented somewhere in a devil's laboratory... can't remember the name of the product, so practically on some kind of poison for 25 years.

 

My usual dosage during these years was 20 mg. When I had life problems which triggered off depression, anxiety, my GP immediately increased the dosage, it happened to me to be on 40 or 60 mg from time to time but not very long periods. I was even prescribed 80 mg (so 20 mg more than the maximum dosage allowed) when it was very-very bad, but I only took 80 mg for a few months. So normally I was on 20.

 

4 times in my life I tried to get up, I didn't know anything about the principle of very slow tapering, but it was easy to cut about 5 mg once in a 2 weeks. So I reached 10 mg 4 times in my life but when symptoms worsened badly I had to give up the idea, especially as I had no support from anywhere (doctor or family).

 

End of last October I went to Romania where I tried acupuncture with a very reputed doctor there to see if I can solve my problem. In October I started reducing, I was on 15 mg when arriving in Romania. I started acupuncture, in a few days I reduced easily to 10 mg. I asked a psychiatrist in the UK who is a relative of mine, he told me that anyway half a pill wont make big difference... And I didn't hate the mind I have now at that time. So practically in about 12 days I went to zero (easily, again, which have never happened before), then terrible withdrawal symptoms started. But they lasted about 5 days, I went to acupuncture daily, 6 days a week, it was hell but acupuncture always alleviated me. So, some kind of cold turkey, but warmed up by acupuncture....  Afterwards, so from mid-November to mid-December it was quite bearable with acupuncture daily, I only had a terrible tiredness, had not much energy and not a lot of zest for life. But it was really OK, I thought I could make it, I had no idea at that time of the internet support groups for antidepressants withdrawal and I could not imagine it could be so terrible.

 

From mid-December to 31 December I was in Turkey (where I have a lot of stress, which only makes it worse), I thought it would be bearable... Than hell on earth started, I had all the possible withdrawal symptoms appeared, terrible anxiety, the dead feeling inside, the terrible black cloak over me, sometimes the grey cloak when it was a bit better, I was alone there, I was almost suicidal. I only resisted because I did not want to go back to the poison again, did not want to disappoint the people who gave me a lot of support and believed I could make it, I just didn't want to go back after all this time, hoping that if I can go through this, the worst will be over and considering 1.5 months off a big victory for me (first time in 25 years!!!!) I only took a bit of Xanax from time to time when it was really bad, product I had taken before when paxil was not enough but to whom I was never addicted.

 

To cut it now short, 4th January I restarted acupuncture. I had many bad days, lots of crises, it was a terrible struggle, but most of the time I had a big crisis this was tamed by acupuncture. But my energy level was very low, I was good at nothing. during this time I only had acupuncture once in a few days wanting to become less dependent on it.

 

On 14 February I returned to France, Concarneau, where my home is. On the very day of the journey disaster started. More terrible even than in Turkey, pain became unbearable, unbearable for days and nights, I was almost screaming with pain. And no relief at all. I was suicidal. Then I discussed with somebody on the internet who after a paxil cold turkey more than 3 years ago, still has lots of terrible problems. He told me that when one makes cold turkey, the brain gets damaged permanently during withdrawal and I got so scared. He advised me to make reinstatement.

 

Last Saturday I made reinstatement (although I hate now the drogue, I take it now in liquid form, terrible when squirting it into my mouth, only now I know how I poisoned myself for years). I did as suggested on a very good article on internet, started from my normal dosage, 20 mg, then subtracting 10% for each month off. So since 20 Feb I have been taking 14 mg (that is 7 ml). But it is frightening, symptoms are still horrendous, almost no improvement, I am desperate, I do not know if reinstatement is still possible, if it is not too late, I do not know when I can see some improvement to be liveable and get some balance. I am so frightened!

[Petunia]

Welcome Odwina,

 

I'm glad you found us and I'm sorry you are not feeling well. From reading what you wrote, it sounds like you stopped taking paxil cold turkey and started experiencing withdrawal symptoms and have now started taking it again, is this correct?

 

We need a few more details and it would be helpful if you filled in your signature, if you did it already, its not showing up, please would you try again, here are instructions for how to do it:  Please put your withdrawal history in your signature       

 

What symptoms are you having now and are they getting worse or better?

 

When we have a few more details, we will be in a better position to offer support and suggestions.

 

Petunia.

[Odwina]

Hello Petunia,

 

I am sorry, at that time I thought I had it on my signature, I did it in the morning and tried to make it as short and simple as possible. In my state of mind the site looked like a maze to me, it is clear I lost it, Ali also drew my attention upon it, I will try to do it again. I have just posted my whole story, a bit long, but I had to do it as clear as possible in order to get the best advice from you. Thank you very much.

[Petunia]

Thank you for filling in the rest of your story. You reinstated only a week ago, a higher dose than what we would normally recommend in your situation, but you have done it now, so I think you need to give it more time to work. It sounds like you are feeling a tiny bit better, is that right? It may take a while before you are feeling a lot better, possibly several weeks.

 

Can you tell us a little more about what symptoms you are having now. Here is a list which may help with that:  Dr. Joseph Glenmullen's withdrawal symptom checklist

 

Here is some information about reinstatement so you will know what to expect:  About reinstating and stabilizing to stop withdrawal symptoms

 

Please don't start tapering yet, you need to give your nervous system a chance to stabilize, then you can begin a proper slow taper. It may take a few months before you are ready to start cutting your dose, but when you are ready, here is the information you will need, its good you are now using the liquid, it will make it much easier:   Tips for tapering off Paxil (paroxetine)

 

Here is the link to our symptoms and self care section, you may find some useful ideas to help manage symptoms as you recover.  Especially read the topics pinned at the top.

 

You can use this thread as your ongoing journal to track progress, write about symptoms, ask questions and communicate with the community, add to it whenever you want. Its a good idea to bookmark it or follow it, so its easy to find again.

 

Try not to worry, you will be able to come off your medication safely, now you have found the right information and support, it may take a while, but eventually you will be able to do it the right way.

 

One more question, are you taking any other medications at the moment?

 

Petunia.

[Ali4]

So you were off for 1.5 months? Then reinstated at 20mg and now currently on 14mg? How quickly did you go from 20 to 14mg?

[Odwina]

Thank you for filling in the rest of your story. You reinstated only a week ago, a higher dose than what we would normally recommend in your situation, but you have done it now, so I think you need to give it more time to work. It sounds like you are feeling a tiny bit better, is that right? It may take a while before you are feeling a lot better, possibly several weeks.

 

Can you tell us a little more about what symptoms you are having now. Here is a list which may help with that:  Dr. Joseph Glenmullen's withdrawal symptom checklist

 

Here is some information about reinstatement so you will know what to expect:  About reinstating and stabilizing to stop withdrawal symptoms

 

Please don't start tapering yet, you need to give your nervous system a chance to stabilize, then you can begin a proper slow taper. It may take a few months before you are ready to start cutting your dose, but when you are ready, here is the information you will need, its good you are now using the liquid, it will make it much easier:   Tips for tapering off Paxil (paroxetine)

 

Here is the link to our symptoms and self care section, you may find some useful ideas to help manage symptoms as you recover.  Especially read the topics pinned at the top.

 

You can use this thread as your ongoing journal to track progress, write about symptoms, ask questions and communicate with the community, add to it whenever you want. Its a good idea to bookmark it or follow it, so its easy to find again.

 

Try not to worry, you will be able to come off your medication safely, now you have found the right information and support, it may take a while, but eventually you will be able to do it the right way.

 

One more question, are you taking any other medications at the moment?

 

Petunia.

 

Hello Petunia,

 

I am not able to thank you enough for the invaluable treasure of information you sent to me, I was quite lost here but you sent me some of the most useful links for my condition at present, I am impressed to see how well the information is structured. And that withdrawal symptom list you sent me the link to is amazing.

 

Yes, I am feeling better but only because I have been tranquilised. Yesterday afternoon after days and nights of terrible crisis and almost no respite I was in suicidal mode, I simply couldn't bear the pain anymore, especially that terrible dead feeling inside. Terrible anxiety triggered by the fact that I didn't know where I was heading to and could see no end to my suffering, I was so frightened that this withdrawal demon is completely out of control. I also had a lot of muscular pain (neck and shoulders), I was shaking.

 

I have taken the symptoms I have had lately from the list you sent me to be as accurate as possible:

 

Psychiatric symptoms: crying spells, worsened mood, very low energy (I could only lie on the sofa most of the day not being able to do anything), trouble concentrating, no appetite at all, insomnia, suicidal thoughts; anxious, nervous, tense; one panic attack on Thu (which is very unusual for me), trembling, jittery, shaking; agitation, in fact terrible restlessness; confusion, cognitive difficulties; feeling detached or unreal;

 

Medical symptoms: sweats (which started again after reinstatement, I didn't have them anymore during acupuncture, it was such a pleasant feeling); nausea; hangover and waterlogged feelings, almost unbearable headache; tingling all over my body; muscle cramps; restless legs.

 

Later in the afternoon I went to my GP (the one who paxil poisoned me for 20 years) in emergency as I had no other option here for medical support. She offered to send me to hospital as an emergency but I was frightened to do this knowing there they would have given me handfuls of drugs. The other option was to do what she said, she prescribed me 0.50 mg Xanax * 4 times a day to get out of the crisis. So I am even more druggie than before but I had no choice. I read that Xanax is a benzo and if I take it longer than a few days I become easily and severely addicted. Well, the doctor said that it only be for a short time. I didn't follow her prescription entirely, yesterday, that is Fri afternoon I took one whole 0.50 mg pill and before bed 3/4 of a 0.50 mg pill. I slept like a log, I needed it so much. Today I took 3/4 a pill in the morning after my 14 mg paxil, one tablet in the afternoon and 3/4 before bed. So I tried to reduce it a bit. Everything is much better now, no more terrible withdrawal, on Monday at 2 pm I have another appointment with my GP to see how I went through the weekend.

 

So now is better but I am tranquilised. I know I can't go on Xanax for a long time. What will it happen after? Will the terrible withdrawal crisis start again? Please advise me, Petunia.

 

I was sorry to see that I could have started reinstatement at a lower dosage, it would have been more daunting and I would have felt a bit better after so much suffering before. But that's it now. I understand I can't think earlier than a few months about tapering.

 

The only terrible problem now is for the reinstatement to really take place and life to become bearable and me to solve things again. During most of the break I had very little energy and could do almost nothing.

 

Many, may thanks for all the patience of reading me and your invaluable support!

 

O

[Odwina]

So you were off for 1.5 months? Then reinstated at 20mg and now currently on 14mg? How quickly did you go from 20 to 14mg?

 

I was off for 3.5 months. Before the 3.5 month break my usual dosage was 20 mg. I reinstated at 14 mg subtracting 10% for every month off paxil (what a beautiful dream...)

[Ali4]

Tell me about it, it is a nightmare, going through it myself, but I can tell you this, you found a great place with lots of help and support to get you through this, you will get better and you are not alone.

[Odwina]

Yes, and most terrible is that you wake up and the nightmare is still there with you, it is not a bad dream only! You are right, this is indeed a great place for us. Not only that we are not feeling so much alone anymore, but here we can get more professional advice than most doctors are able or bother to give.

[Altostrata]

Please use the Xanax as infrequently and at as low a dose as possible. You can easily develop a dependency on it that requires tapering.

 

You may need to tolerate the "dead feeling inside" for quite a while. This is a common side effect of antidepressants and it can take months before the emotional anesthesia goes away.

 

You must learn to manage your distress over your symptoms. Being afraid of them makes them worse. Please see

 

The Windows and Waves Pattern of Stabilization

 

Non-drug techniques to cope with emotional symptoms

[Odwina]

Hello Altostrata,

 

Thank you very much for your advice, I am trying to use as infrequent as possible xanax, 1 pill in the morning and half of it a few minutes ago. I am trying to overcome these feelings as much as possible, but it is so hard. I keep wondering how I will be able to cope, it is just unbearable, I am not good at meditation and this kind of stuff. The idea would be to be able to cope without this extra drug but I am not able to find the inner strength in me.

[nz11]

Odwina so sorry to read of your plight.

You can find the inner strength in you. Its only one day at a time remember.

 

Are you able to find it in yourself to refuse the xanax?  Or set a time, 4 days and then no more say.

The thing is it may take some time ...several months say to stabilize yet within a week or two of xanax an addiction may be triggered.

Heres a piece from Whitakers book on xanax. that i typed out. Im all for being fully informed ..why would we want it any other way? Maybe the doctor already informed you of this information. If so then ignore it.

http://survivingantidepressants.org/index.php?/topic/7571-☼-nz11-climbs-onboard/?p=206507

 

I also was given a benzo...didnt even know what a benzo was at the time. Thought it was a medicine. How stupid was i ...things were about to change...got home and started researching for myself...i was horrified. I never took it. And i am still alive today. 

 

You will get through this. Wishing you strength.

[Odwina]

Hello nz11,

 

Of course the doctor didn't inform me about all this, she is the doctor who poisoned me with paxil for more than 20 years and she really believes that there are people needing antidepressants to survive just as others need insulin! It is just that I was in a terrible state on Fri, I was suicidal, the alternative was to put me into hospital where they would have given me even more drugs and where I wouldn't have been able to make any reduction.

 

I know that it is another terrible drug, I found out from another survivor that if I didn't quit in only a few days - just as you said - it would be terrible. I have reduced as much as possible the Xanax. I took only 1.5 pill today and I am trying now not to take anything before sleep. Tomorrow I will have appointment with my GP, I guess she will be satisfied with her results, I will report to her I took all the 4 pills (0.50mg) a day. Oh, if only this acute phase of the withdrawal went away!  Then I could somehow cope. But it seems there is no end of this withdrawal peak. And the only thing for alleviation we are supposed to have is some fish oil and some vitamins (provided they work and it is not only some placebo, I have no proof). But how can fish oil and some vitamins fight this drug created in hell???

 

Many thanks for your support to me!!!

 

O

[nz11]

No one said this is easy. It is the hardest thing i have ever done.

Words that begin with 's' trigger a predictable response in front of a person of straw like a doctor. These are people who have their own panic attack in the presence of someone tearful.

 

Doctors  lack any confidence whatsoever that an emotional crisis can be handled therapeutically rather than with drugs.

This is why they are extremely dangerous.

 

Do you have a family member you can lean on and can support you.

 

The key to survivng this is not drugs its the calming presence of a person with a conviction and confidence that everything will be ok and that reason and hope will be restored. Topped of with an interest in the persons feelings and wellbeing.

 

These are wdl symptoms you are suffering are you able to be proactive ...i would lie down and literally chant back to these overwhelming thoughts..."that is not an option".

Engage in an activity 'do' something to distract the brain from these symptoms.

I would get on the ph to a family member just talking to someone anyone...seemed to move the brain off the 'hell' broken record.

 

Try not to hit the panic button when waves of suicidality hit you......'this is withdrawal. It will pass if you hold on.'

You need to believe that.

 

Lucire said,

"Suicidal and homicidal ideation both sometimes persisted for months after withdrawal. When a subject understood its cause and saw that it was decreasing in intensity, it was less dangerous and easier to tolerate. Sometimes suicidality developed for the first time when a dose was missed and when the subject tried to stop taking the drugs."

taken from this excellent article posted by Fresh from Lucire...

http://survivingantidepressants.org/index.php?/topic/6383-dr-yolande-lucire-adverse-reactions-to-psychiatric-drugs/?p=209645

 

Consider ditching the xanax.

Take the omegas and the mag. Who cares if its only placebo effects ...in wdl im all for leveraging non-drug placebo effects off anything.

 

check out and read this thread...

http://survivingantidepressants.org/index.php?/topic/10964-the-dr-claire-weekes-method-of-recovering-from-a-sensitized-nervous-system/

 

You can do this.

[Petunia]

Hello Odwina,

I'm sorry you are still not feeling well, but its only been a few days, its going to take a little while before your symptoms settle down, but they will.

 

If you take xanax more than once or twice a week, its possible to become dependent on it in two weeks or even less. Then you will need to take it on a regular basis in order to prevent interdose withdrawal and it will need to be carefully tapered in order to avoid withdrawal symptoms. Once the nervous system has become sensitized by withdrawal (from any drug), its much easier for dependency, unpredictable reactions and withdrawal effects to occur with any new drugs, especially benzos, which is what xanax is.

 

As others have written, please be careful with the xanax, as the saying goes, it might get you out of the frying pan, but puts you in the fire.... better to stay in the frying pan and wait until if cools down by itself.

 

It would be great if you would put your drug and withdrawal history in your signature. Doing this helps people understand your context, it appears below each of your posts. Here are instructions for how to do it:   http://survivinganti...your-signature/  

Here's how to add your signature from a phone or tablet:  http://survivinganti...nature/?p=84105

 

I hope your doctor appointment goes well.

 

Petunia.

[Odwina]

Hello Odwina,

I'm sorry you are still not feeling well, but its only been a few days, its going to take a little while before your symptoms settle down, but they will.

 

If you take xanax more than once or twice a week, its possible to become dependent on it in two weeks or even less. Then you will need to take it on a regular basis in order to prevent interdose withdrawal and it will need to be carefully tapered in order to avoid withdrawal symptoms. Once the nervous system has become sensitized by withdrawal (from any drug), its much easier for dependency, unpredictable reactions and withdrawal effects to occur with any new drugs, especially benzos, which is what xanax is.

 

As others have written, please be careful with the xanax, as the saying goes, it might get you out of the frying pan, but puts you in the fire.... better to stay in the frying pan and wait until if cools down by itself.

 

It would be great if you would put your drug and withdrawal history in your signature. Doing this helps people understand your context, it appears below each of your posts. Here are instructions for how to do it:   http://survivinganti...your-signature/  

Here's how to add your signature from a phone or tablet:  http://survivinganti...nature/?p=84105

 

I hope your doctor appointment goes well.

 

Petunia.

 

Hello Petunia,

 

Thanks a lot for your so professional advice and encouragements! Yes, as you, Altostrata and Nz11 have warned me, I did all my best to minimise Xanax use as possible, I was not the "very good patient" anymore, yesterday I was able to stick to 1 tablet in the morning, one half in the afternoon, none before sleep. Today no Xanax at all!

 

In the future I will only take half a tablet when it really becomes unbearable, I will do everything possible to not take Xanax more than once or twice a week as long as I am still in acute withdrawal.

 

Today it was better for half a day. Now again very bad. It was just a window. I would so much like to see a wide-open door!!!

 

I did my signature...

 

One thousand thanks,

 

O

[Odwina]

No one said this is easy. It is the hardest thing i have ever done.

Words that begin with 's' trigger a predictable response in front of a person of straw like a doctor. These are people who have their own panic attack in the presence of someone tearful.

 

Doctors  lack any confidence whatsoever that an emotional crisis can be handled therapeutically rather than with drugs.

This is why they are extremely dangerous.

 

Do you have a family member you can lean on and can support you.

 

The key to survivng this is not drugs its the calming presence of a person with a conviction and confidence that everything will be ok and that reason and hope will be restored. Topped of with an interest in the persons feelings and wellbeing.

 

These are wdl symptoms you are suffering are you able to be proactive ...i would lie down and literally chant back to these overwhelming thoughts..."that is not an option".

Engage in an activity 'do' something to distract the brain from these symptoms.

I would get on the ph to a family member just talking to someone anyone...seemed to move the brain off the 'hell' broken record.

 

Try not to hit the panic button when waves of suicidality hit you......'this is withdrawal. It will pass if you hold on.'

You need to believe that.

 

Lucire said,

"Suicidal and homicidal ideation both sometimes persisted for months after withdrawal. When a subject understood its cause and saw that it was decreasing in intensity, it was less dangerous and easier to tolerate. Sometimes suicidality developed for the first time when a dose was missed and when the subject tried to stop taking the drugs."

taken from this excellent article posted by Fresh from Lucire...

http://survivingantidepressants.org/index.php?/topic/6383-dr-yolande-lucire-adverse-reactions-to-psychiatric-drugs/?p=209645

 

Consider ditching the xanax.

Take the omegas and the mag. Who cares if its only placebo effects ...in wdl im all for leveraging non-drug placebo effects off anything.

 

check out and read this thread...

http://survivingantidepressants.org/index.php?/topic/10964-the-dr-claire-weekes-method-of-recovering-from-a-sensitized-nervous-system/

 

You can do this.

 

Hello NZ11,

 

I have so much liked your primary and secondary goals in life...

 

Thanks for this last letter of yours and your great advice, your so witty explanations about doctors' behaviour and coping with this terrible acute withdrawal. No Xanax today at all, no tablet yesterday before sleep, I am doing my best and follow your advice because I know it is the best!

 

Yes, there is a family member with me, otherwise I may not have been writing here anymore.

 

It has been a window today, but as I said to Petunia, I want so badly a wide-open door!!!

 

Thousand thanks,

 

O

[Fresh]

Hi Odwina , please consider taking magnesium daily to assist your recovery. It can have

a noticeable relaxing effect on mood and muscles , and helps your organs function easier.

See http://survivingantidepressants.org/index.php?/topic/1300-magnesium-natures-calcium-channel-blocker/

 

Also see the thread on Omega3's. Our brains need it after years on ad's.

http://survivingantidepressants.org/index.php?/topic/36-king-of-supplements-omega-3-fatty-acids-fish-oil/

 

Best wishes , Fresh

[Odwina]

Hi Odwina , please consider taking magnesium daily to assist your recovery. It can have

a noticeable relaxing effect on mood and muscles , and helps your organs function easier.

See http://survivingantidepressants.org/index.php?/topic/1300-magnesium-natures-calcium-channel-blocker/

 

Also see the thread on Omega3's. Our brains need it after years on ad's.

http://survivingantidepressants.org/index.php?/topic/36-king-of-supplements-omega-3-fatty-acids-fish-oil/

 

Best wishes , Fresh

 

Hello Fresh,

 

Yes, I take omega 3 (fish oil) pills twice a day. Also vitamin, there is magnesium too there, but I can also buy some magnesium separately.

 

It is just that this reinstatement process seems neverending, I only had a few hour window yesterday, night was terrible. I already have 10 days after reinstatement, I cant see any improvement, it is so difficult not to be desperate and frightened!

[Odwina]

(Moved from Symptoms and Self Care , re tingling skin.)

 

Dear all,

 

I had this sensation before, when being on paxil, then my GP increased the dosage immediately saying it was stress and depression. In this way at that time I was able to get rid of it.

 

Now, 9 days after paxil reinstatement, it became a very frequent and terribly annoying symptom. It guess it is caused by withdrawal. Can it be somehow alleviated? Or is it the danger that I will never be able to get rid of it anymore? I can already seen it as an impairment for life.

 

If this question has already been answered here, please send me the link.

 

Thank you very much,

 

O

Edited March 1, 2016 by Fresh
moved to personal thread

[Fresh]

This is our thread on Paresthesia: tingling , burning , pins and needles sensations

 

http://survivingantidepressants.org/index.php?/topic/6548-paresthesia-pins-needles-numbness-tingling-burning-sensations/

[Odwina]

This is our thread on Paresthesia: tingling , burning , pins and needles sensations

 

http://survivingantidepressants.org/index.php?/topic/6548-paresthesia-pins-needles-numbness-tingling-burning-sensations/

 

Thanks a lot for the link, Fresh!!!

[Odwina]

Welcome Odwina,

 

I'm glad you found us and I'm sorry you are not feeling well. From reading what you wrote, it sounds like you stopped taking paxil cold turkey and started experiencing withdrawal symptoms and have now started taking it again, is this correct?

 

We need a few more details and it would be helpful if you filled in your signature, if you did it already, its not showing up, please would you try again, here are instructions for how to do it:  Please put your withdrawal history in your signature       

 

What symptoms are you having now and are they getting worse or better?

 

When we have a few more details, we will be in a better position to offer support and suggestions.

 

Petunia.

 

Dear Petunia,

 

You wrote in your first reply to me that it would have been better to have made the reinstatement at a lower dosage than 14 mg. My usual dosage was 20 mg before giving up and I had a 3.5 month period off paxil. Which would have been the amount that you would have suggested?

 

I made the reinstatement on 20 Feb, there have been mostly horrendous days since then. However since Monday, so this is the 3rd day, I have had a few relatively good hours a day. Interesting that today I felt considerably worse after taking the paxil (in the morning). Later it became better.

 

But I know now I should make a 3-month-break, so no way of dreaming about tapering as long as I am not at all stable yet.

 

Please also tell me if you think that microtapering would be better for me than the normal 10%, 5% tapering taking into account I was for more than 20 years on paxil.

 

Thanks a lot,

 

Odwina

[Petunia]

If you hadn't already reinstated, I probably would have suggested trying 5mg, or maybe even a little less. But changing it now is risking more destabilization. It sounds like you are starting to stabilize.

 

Is this the first time you felt worse after taking your dose, but then felt better later in the day, or is this your regular pattern. Keep notes about these patterns of symptoms and let us know if there is a daily pattern like this.

 

A 5% taper is something to consider, slower is always safer than faster, but lets just get you back to being stable again for now.

[Odwina]

If you hadn't already reinstated, I probably would have suggested trying 5mg, or maybe even a little less. But changing it now is risking more destabilization. It sounds like you are starting to stabilize.

 

Is this the first time you felt worse after taking your dose, but then felt better later in the day, or is this your regular pattern. Keep notes about these patterns of symptoms and let us know if there is a daily pattern like this.

 

A 5% taper is something to consider, slower is always safer than faster, but lets just get you back to being stable again for now.

 

Hello Petunia, I am so scared again, the following things happened since yesterday around 10 pm when I wrote to you. I felt really OK at the beginning of the night, just that I couldn't fall asleep. Then my mind seemed to be overactive, my eyes were constantly moving around, even when they were closed, it felt like there was light in them. Then I went downstairs, had a tea at 2-3 am and everything seemed very bright and the computer was slightly blurred at times and eventually I came back up to bed, my eyes were still flickering around but closed and eventually I fell asleep. When I woke up (9am) I was very tired, very sweaty and I had the skin tingling and I took the drug (at the usual time). I tried to sleep again because I was tired and gradually my head became very light-headed and then I had a feeling as if I was losing my mind and my brain was drifting away. And this went on as a crisis for more than half an hour. This is the most scary for me, much more scary than the physical symptoms as I really feel as I am losing my sanity. I have to mention that I had another crisis of this kind, when I really felt like the devils took hold of my mind on Monday, but then I took half a Xanax (0.25 mg) because I was in terrible pain and the paxil. I attributed this terrible crisis to the Xanax which I gave up completely (and I will never ever take it again) afterwards.

 

I am also worried because I realised yesterday evening, after reading your article about syringes that I was mistaken when measuring the liquid and in fact I take 15.2 mg instead of 14 mg!!! I was so cross with myself! I am close to square one after so much effort and pain.

 

Can it be, Petunia, that in fact I am taking now too much paxil and my brain can't stand it anymore and it sends me signals about this? But of course, on the other hand, I am afraid because I know that reducing now could trigger off another more acute withdrawal. I really feel trapped and frightened, I am so frightened now, please advise me, there is nobody here to help me, my doctor doesn't understand anything, I cant even go there anymore as I know tho solution is not in taking other drugs. Thank you so much for all your kindness! O 

[Odwina]

If you hadn't already reinstated, I probably would have suggested trying 5mg, or maybe even a little less. But changing it now is risking more destabilization. It sounds like you are starting to stabilize.

 

Is this the first time you felt worse after taking your dose, but then felt better later in the day, or is this your regular pattern. Keep notes about these patterns of symptoms and let us know if there is a daily pattern like this.

 

A 5% taper is something to consider, slower is always safer than faster, but lets just get you back to being stable again for now.

 

PS - Dear Petunia, I have to add that during the last days I took - on the pharmacist's recommendation - neurobiane, the forerunner of serotonine (it contains L-tryptophane, vit 6, magnesium.). I just found the thread about tryptophane on your site, it says that if taken when one takes an SSRI, it can make symptoms worse. I think now these hallucinations can be from there, I wont take it anymore. Please, do you think that the present quantity of paxil, after making the other error with the syringe, can be OK and it is accepted by my brain? Please answer me, I am so afraid, my health is in such a mess.

[Petunia]

Do you feel that you are worse since you reinstated Paxil? It was sounding like you started having some small windows of feeling better. If you are beginning to stabilize, which means slowly starting to improve, then I would give it more time. But if you are getting worse, in general, then I think the dose may be too much.

 

Its important that you keep good notes of your symptoms so that we can see if a pattern is forming and then we can base the decision on this.

 

It was good you stopped taking the neurobiane, not only is Tryptophan not recommended for someone taking SSRIs, but vitamin B6 can also be too stimulating for someone in withdrawal.

 

Read through the reinstatement topic again, I posted it earlier in your thread, it will help you understand how reinstatement works and decide if you have had an adverse reaction and need to lower you dose.

 

Please would you change your signature to reflect that you're taking 15.2mg.

 

Also these two that Also posted for you:

 

You must learn to manage your distress over your symptoms. Being afraid of them makes them worse. Please see

 

The Windows and Waves Pattern of Stabilization

 

Non-drug techniques to cope with emotional symptoms

[Odwina]

Thank you so much!

 

I have read all the thread about reinstatement very carefully (and not only, I am reading and reading and reading).

 

The idea is the following, when I made the reinstatement I followed the advice given by James Heaney on his blog (I could see you appreciate him here), which was to subtract 10% for each month of break from my original dosage. It should have been 14 mg but as I made that mistake with the serynge I did it in fact at 15.2 mg.

 

Your advice here is much more different, to reinstate at a much smaller dosage and if it doesnt work to add gradually more. It makes a lot of sense.

 

The problem is that I already made the reinstatement on 20 Feb, so 12 days ago.

 

I am analysing and analysing my symptoms, they are quite different than when being off, I didnt have then that terrible sensation of being unwell or the dead brain feeling. It is very difficult to say if I am feeling better, it is just different. Maybe a bit less crisis at nights. But still so bad.

 

My question is - and I didnt find yet somebody to ask the same question - if I did the reinstatement the other way round than you suggested, is it now too late to start a tepering off as I do feel that I am taking presently too much drug. Is it too late to find now an equilibrium going downwards instead of upwards?????????? Or it it is still possible, what would be the best way to do it? It is not that I am impatient to start tapering, just desperate to find the right balance and feel more bearable.

 

It can be that my brain was able to adjust a bit more to the lack of drug with so much acupuncture. But of course I cannot say for sure. Please answer me as quickly as possible.

[nz11]

During the interlude here's an opinion from the cheap seats.

 

Chopping and changing doses is not a good idea if you have been taking 15.2 for 12 days when you thought you were taking 14 dont worry keep taking the 15.2.

imo if you drop now you may trigger an escalation of suffering. 20 yrs is a long time on these drugs.

 

If James says decrease by 10% of original dose that is different from here. SA rec 10% of previous dose. 

After 20 yrs of paxil use, 5% sounds a great idea.

 

Be patient. You are doing amazing. You may have to wait several months to stabilize.

[basildev]

Hi Odwina,

 

So sorry you are suffering. Regarding this statement by Petunia:

 

 

Once the nervous system has become sensitized by withdrawal (from any drug), its much easier for dependency, unpredictable reactions and withdrawal effects to occur with any new drugs, especially benzos, which is what xanax is.

 

I can attest to this 100%. I took Valium intermittently over a period of 3 months to cope with insomnia from Citalopram withdrawal  (a total of 37.5mg, which is really not much at all - Xanax is  a much more powerful drug) and I developed interdose withdrawal is a very short time.

 

When I finally realised this was happening I stopped taking the Valium, but I had a whole new set of symptoms to deal with.

 

If I hadn't taken the benzo I think I would have stabilized much, much sooner.

 

Take care

[Odwina]

 

Do you feel that you are worse since you reinstated Paxil? It was sounding like you started having some small windows of feeling better. If you are beginning to stabilize, which means slowly starting to improve, then I would give it more time. But if you are getting worse, in general, then I think the dose may be too much.

 

Its important that you keep good notes of your symptoms so that we can see if a pattern is forming and then we can base the decision on this.

 

It was good you stopped taking the neurobiane, not only is Tryptophan not recommended for someone taking SSRIs, but vitamin B6 can also be too stimulating for someone in withdrawal.

 

Read through the reinstatement topic again, I posted it earlier in your thread, it will help you understand how reinstatement works and decide if you have had an adverse reaction and need to lower you dose.

 

Please would you change your signature to reflect that you're taking 15.2mg.

 

Also these two that Also posted for you:

 

You must learn to manage your distress over your symptoms. Being afraid of them makes them worse. Please see

 

The Windows and Waves Pattern of Stabilization

 

Non-drug techniques to cope with emotional symptoms

 

 

Hello Petunia,

 

An amazing day today, I have enjoyed it so much (because I know...) But moreover because today I became 1000% certain that what had worsened terribly my state was that Neurobiane. I told you about that night when I couldn't sleep at all and was abnormally high (it never ever happened to me such a thing at night) and also about that terrible crisis yesterday morning when

 

"I had a feeling as if I was losing my mind and my brain was drifting away. And this went on as a crisis for more than half an hour. This is the most scary for me, much more scary than the physical symptoms as I really feel as I am losing my sanity. I have to mention that I had another crisis of this kind, when I really felt like the devils took hold of my mind on Monday, but then I took half a Xanax (0.25 mg) because I was in terrible pain and the paxil. I attributed this terrible crisis to the Xanax which I gave up completely (and I will never ever take it again) afterwards."

 

So in fact both these horrendous crises (never ever did I have this feeling of literally losing my mind) were triggered off by neurobiane, so tryptophan and vitamin 6. Maybe this horrible experience of mine should be posted on the tryptophan thread where it should be more dangerous how dangerous it is (the information there is a bit indirect - there is a link - but even there it is not clear that it can make you send into hell. Neurobiane is a food supplement, it does not even have a leaflet just because of this, and it was the pharmacist who recommended to me the way it is recommended a vitamin. Which I thought it almost was by reading the ingredients. Only today I could see somewhere at the bottom of one side of the box, Il est conseille aux patients sous antidepresseurs de demander un avis medical avant de prendre ce complement alimentaire". And I was advised by the pharmacist when telling him I was on withdrawal to take it!!!!!!

 

And the second piece of very good news is that today I bought some other syringes, more accurate, being inspired by the thread on your site about microtapering where there were pictures of different syringes..., measured a lot and realised I didn't make anything wrong, I made the reinstatement with 14 mg, so I modified again my signature (which today showed 15.2 mg) It sounds much much better 14 instead of 15.2 mg........ after all the suffering during the break.

 

As always thousands thanks for your wonderful support!

 

O

 

But yesterday I was almost dead because of that neurobiane, it has been the worst day since trying to get rid of the drug, this is why I was so scared. I literally felt my brain was dead and my reinstatement had been my greatest fiasco. And the night was also terribly difficult, this is why I was so desperate about making it the wrong way.

[Odwina]

Hi Odwina,

 

So sorry you are suffering. Regarding this statement by Petunia:

 

 

Once the nervous system has become sensitized by withdrawal (from any drug), its much easier for dependency, unpredictable reactions and withdrawal effects to occur with any new drugs, especially benzos, which is what xanax is.

 

I can attest to this 100%. I took Valium intermittently over a period of 3 months to cope with insomnia from Citalopram withdrawal  (a total of 37.5mg, which is really not much at all - Xanax is  a much more powerful drug) and I developed interdose withdrawal is a very short time.

 

When I finally realised this was happening I stopped taking the Valium, but I had a whole new set of symptoms to deal with.

 

If I hadn't taken the benzo I think I would have stabilized much, much sooner.

 

Take care

 

Hello Basil,

 

Thank you very much for sharing your experience with me and making the parallel between Xanax and Valium, yes, true, to develop interdose withdrawal would have been the worst possible at this stage for me. Of course, seeing it now retrospectively, that you would have stabilised much sooner without the extra benzo to deal with.

 

I was put on the benzo because the alternative would have been to lock me up into a hospital and there to give me handfuls of pills and then my brain would have been completely cooked. But on Mon morning, after the last dosage of Xanax I had a terrible crisis, totally unusual, having the impression that my brain was split in half and it was so real. Then I understood the message from mybrain and I said that I would never ever took a benzo, no matter how difficult it will be.

 

Thank you very much,

 

O

[Odwina]

During the interlude here's an opinion from the cheap seats.

 

Chopping and changing doses is not a good idea if you have been taking 15.2 for 12 days when you thought you were taking 14 dont worry keep taking the 15.2.

imo if you drop now you may trigger an escalation of suffering. 20 yrs is a long time on these drugs.

 

If James says decrease by 10% of original dose that is different from here. SA rec 10% of previous dose. 

After 20 yrs of paxil use, 5% sounds a great idea.

 

Be patient. You are doing amazing. You may have to wait several months to stabilize.

 

Hello NZ,

 

This is not at all an idea from the cheap seats....

 

Today it was a wonderful day (well, we know it can't last...), I went to the chemist's, I bought several types of syringes being inspired by the photos of syringes on your site....I even found a dropper, very nice, and another more precise syringe. Then I checked at home and I realised I hadn't made any mistake, I am still on 14, it sounds much better then 15.2....

 

And I realised - as I wrote with details to Petunia - that the 2 horrendous crises I have had lately with brain being split, the worst since sevrage, and me feeling literally dead yesterday were caused by a stupid food supplement recommended by the chemist, neurobiane, that is tryptophan + vit B6 + magnesium, the so-called forerunner of the serotonin. And in fact this augmented in a tremendous way the effect of the SSRI recently reinstalled, this is why I thought I had messed it up completely with my reinstatement.

 

Yes, James has a different idea about reinstatement, at the time I had to take that decision I was not yet a member here, and as the site is very big I couldn't find immediately the needed information. But I would say that also his idea is very logical, just calculate 10% for each month of break because this is the maximum dosage our brain can take. Then, if you become stable, in one month only you can restart a slow tapering.

 

So now I will stay where I am because it seems it has started to be more bearable.

 

Thanks a lot,

 

O

[basildev]

 

I was put on the benzo because the alternative would have been to lock me up into a hospital and there to give me handfuls of pills and then my brain would have been completely cooked. But on Mon morning, after the last dosage of Xanax I had a terrible crisis, totally unusual, having the impression that my brain was split in half and it was so real. Then I understood the message from mybrain and I said that I would never ever took a benzo, no matter how difficult it will be.

 

I'm so relieved to hear this Odwina! Stay strong and hang in there xx