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Zeldazonk: AD induced bipolar 2 diagnosis?


Zeldazonk

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  • Moderator Emeritus

 

As I said above, there's 30mg Duloxetine in 175mg beads (not 165).

Any tips?

 

I'm feeling better now, it took a few hours. I'm kicking myself, I knew better but I let myself be bamboozled :(

I'll hold this dose for a month or so.

 

No harm no foul, long as you're feeling better.  Don't beat yourself up :-)

 

The fillers make the beads weigh more than the active ingredient.  Sounds like there's 0.171 mg active ingredient in one mg of med.  If you are taking 93 mg of beads, then you are taking 15.94 mg of active ingredient.  You are at slightly more than half of where you started!  Congratulations!

 

You can just work with the actual weight of the beads and calculate your 10% off of that, but it's nice to know once in awhile what your active ingredient is.

 

SG

Started ADs back around 1995 after bad break-up, starting with Prozac.  Switched to Wellbutrin, and then to Effexor in 2002
Effexor XR 2002-2014 up to 225 mg at one point, down to 37.5 mg towards end but back up to 75 mg in 2014; now realize I had W/D as I dropped down, memory very poor about history.  Extreme emotions, poor concentration as I stepped back down, didn't connect the dots!
Summer 2014 reduced to 0 very quickly, was sick of anhedonia/sexual dysfunction due to meds, depression never controlled if not worse. Didn't recognize WD since symptoms built slowly (thought I had ADD! and menopausal on top of it), starting with severe sweats, very bad cog-fog and memory issues, culminating in weight loss, severe anxiety and depression, panic, severe apathy and insomnia by eight months off.  Saw p-doc who put me on Remeron, increased from 7.5 mg/day to 37.5 mg by May 22, 2015; still doing very badly though able to sleep.

June 1. 2015 Reinstated Effexor XR 37.5 mg, Remeron dropped to 30 mg PM. Immediate relief of symptoms, like nothing had ever happened!  Joined SA and began on advice of friend who recognized it was WD all along! Began tapering in July 2015.

Been tapering both meds ever since, focusing on one more than the other or doing no more than 5% of each per month.

12 mg Effexor and 5.8 mg Remeron (mirtazapine SolTabs to make a solution with OraPlus) as of 5/4/2017 

Update 3/14/18: 2.9 mg Remeron and 6 mg Effexor; 6/10/18:  2.6 mg Remeron and 4.9 mg Effexor

 

My intro: http://survivingantidepressants.org/index.php?/topic/9313-squirrellygirl-effexor-withdrawal-etc/page-2#entry196679

This is not medical advice. Discuss any decisions about your medical care with a knowledgeable medical practitioner.

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Oh, thank you SG!

I miss my mathematically able brain :-)

 

Not feeling quite as good today, I might have to up the dose a tiny bit more maybe.

 

Zel.

Dx ASD, Bipolar 2 & cPTSD

It started well before this (1990) but...

 

2008 - came off Efexor & Seoquel

2008? - 2016 Cymbalta, Lithium, Valium prn

(2015 - Valdoxan < 1 month 2016 - Provigil < 1 month

2016 - Straterra < 1 month)

 

March 2016 - Cymbalta, Lithium, Valium prn

March - start tapering Cymbalta by 10% April 10th - reduce May 1st - reduce May 24th - cold turkey (acupuncturist fool) - pretty bad withdrawal

May 27th - re-instate. June 29th - reduce. August 11th reduce. Sept 14th - reduce. Oct 23rd reduce. Nov 20th - reduce. Nov 29th - PROZAC SWITCH - started at equivalent dose to Cymbalta. 1/2 Lovan in 30ml water - take 10ml. Reduced by 1 ml at differing intervals - 3-5 weeks - until May 12th.

May12th - Antidepressant free!!

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  • Moderator Emeritus

Give this up-dose a week before adding more, Zeldazonk - it takes four days for the change to reach a steady state and a bit more time for the benefit to show itself, plus you've got the reverberations (brain bounce as Alto has put it) of the downs and ups to settle out.  If you take more you could exceed your level of healing and cause bigger upset.  Try to be patient a little longer.  You were okay at that dose before and I'm sure you will get back where you were shortly.

 

It's important to not always try to fix discomforts by DOING something like taking more or adding supplements etc. because it can set off even bigger perturbations!

 

SG

Started ADs back around 1995 after bad break-up, starting with Prozac.  Switched to Wellbutrin, and then to Effexor in 2002
Effexor XR 2002-2014 up to 225 mg at one point, down to 37.5 mg towards end but back up to 75 mg in 2014; now realize I had W/D as I dropped down, memory very poor about history.  Extreme emotions, poor concentration as I stepped back down, didn't connect the dots!
Summer 2014 reduced to 0 very quickly, was sick of anhedonia/sexual dysfunction due to meds, depression never controlled if not worse. Didn't recognize WD since symptoms built slowly (thought I had ADD! and menopausal on top of it), starting with severe sweats, very bad cog-fog and memory issues, culminating in weight loss, severe anxiety and depression, panic, severe apathy and insomnia by eight months off.  Saw p-doc who put me on Remeron, increased from 7.5 mg/day to 37.5 mg by May 22, 2015; still doing very badly though able to sleep.

June 1. 2015 Reinstated Effexor XR 37.5 mg, Remeron dropped to 30 mg PM. Immediate relief of symptoms, like nothing had ever happened!  Joined SA and began on advice of friend who recognized it was WD all along! Began tapering in July 2015.

Been tapering both meds ever since, focusing on one more than the other or doing no more than 5% of each per month.

12 mg Effexor and 5.8 mg Remeron (mirtazapine SolTabs to make a solution with OraPlus) as of 5/4/2017 

Update 3/14/18: 2.9 mg Remeron and 6 mg Effexor; 6/10/18:  2.6 mg Remeron and 4.9 mg Effexor

 

My intro: http://survivingantidepressants.org/index.php?/topic/9313-squirrellygirl-effexor-withdrawal-etc/page-2#entry196679

This is not medical advice. Discuss any decisions about your medical care with a knowledgeable medical practitioner.

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Thanks so much SG, that's good to know.

 

I went for my last acupuncture session with the guy who told me to go cold turkey. I told him what had happened, he gave me a treatment and told me to reduce my dose as much as possible!!!

Never going back again, needless to say.

 

My nervous system is so broken at the moment (it already was before I started tapering), I just need heaps and heaps of rest, and I haven't really been getting it. (I also have chronic fatigue which doesn't help.)

I'll just hang on this dose for a few weeks.

 

Zel.

Dx ASD, Bipolar 2 & cPTSD

It started well before this (1990) but...

 

2008 - came off Efexor & Seoquel

2008? - 2016 Cymbalta, Lithium, Valium prn

(2015 - Valdoxan < 1 month 2016 - Provigil < 1 month

2016 - Straterra < 1 month)

 

March 2016 - Cymbalta, Lithium, Valium prn

March - start tapering Cymbalta by 10% April 10th - reduce May 1st - reduce May 24th - cold turkey (acupuncturist fool) - pretty bad withdrawal

May 27th - re-instate. June 29th - reduce. August 11th reduce. Sept 14th - reduce. Oct 23rd reduce. Nov 20th - reduce. Nov 29th - PROZAC SWITCH - started at equivalent dose to Cymbalta. 1/2 Lovan in 30ml water - take 10ml. Reduced by 1 ml at differing intervals - 3-5 weeks - until May 12th.

May12th - Antidepressant free!!

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  • 1 month later...

Hi,

 

Just thought I'd write down some symptoms I'm having...

 

Muscle tension & headaches!!! - worse than usual

Hot flushes - more than usual

Night sweats - new phenomenon 

Very wired / hypo-manic (racing thoughts, mild auditory hallucinations) - have experienced on Cymbalta as well as now.

Extremely irritable (mild self harm) - have experienced on Cymbalta as well as now.

Intrusive suicidal thoughts - have experienced as part of withdrawal before. Didn't persist for too long.

Intrusive homicidal thoughts - that's a new one!! Again, didn't persist for too long which I attribute to the slow taper.

 

So, I'm a mess at the moment, especially the irritability. Thing is, I'm always a mess. There are some things that are really obviously caused by withdrawal, and others I'm not sure about.

I went from very wired and actually, a slightly raised mood, (which hasn't happened for a very long time) to this horrible very wired and irritable state.

My poor daughter. 

I've gone 4 weeks on this dose & am deciding whether to drop down now.

 

Zel.

Dx ASD, Bipolar 2 & cPTSD

It started well before this (1990) but...

 

2008 - came off Efexor & Seoquel

2008? - 2016 Cymbalta, Lithium, Valium prn

(2015 - Valdoxan < 1 month 2016 - Provigil < 1 month

2016 - Straterra < 1 month)

 

March 2016 - Cymbalta, Lithium, Valium prn

March - start tapering Cymbalta by 10% April 10th - reduce May 1st - reduce May 24th - cold turkey (acupuncturist fool) - pretty bad withdrawal

May 27th - re-instate. June 29th - reduce. August 11th reduce. Sept 14th - reduce. Oct 23rd reduce. Nov 20th - reduce. Nov 29th - PROZAC SWITCH - started at equivalent dose to Cymbalta. 1/2 Lovan in 30ml water - take 10ml. Reduced by 1 ml at differing intervals - 3-5 weeks - until May 12th.

May12th - Antidepressant free!!

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  • Moderator Emeritus

Zel, I'm sorry to read that things continue to be challenging.

 

Don't know how much you've browsed the Symptoms forum here at SA -- there's a topic on irritability and anger that might be helpful:

 

Coping with irritability, anger and rage

This is not medical advice. Discuss any decisions about your medical care with a knowledgeable medical practitioner.
1997-1999 Effexor; 2002-2005 Effexor XR 37.5 mg linear taper, dropping same #beads/week with bad results

Cymbalta 60 mg 2012 - 2015; 2016: 20 mg to 7 mg exact doses and dates in this post; 2017: 6.3 mg to  0.0 mg  Aug. 12; details here


scallywag's Introduction
Online spreadsheet for dose taper calculations and nz11's THE WORKS spreadsheet

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Thanks Scallywag,

 

the thing I don't even like to think about is - I wonder if I would've had all the violent meltdowns, agitated depression and excruciating irritability without the anti-depressants.

I guess I'll never know, unless once I'm off them I never feel that way again, which I think would probably be too good to be true.  :(

Dx ASD, Bipolar 2 & cPTSD

It started well before this (1990) but...

 

2008 - came off Efexor & Seoquel

2008? - 2016 Cymbalta, Lithium, Valium prn

(2015 - Valdoxan < 1 month 2016 - Provigil < 1 month

2016 - Straterra < 1 month)

 

March 2016 - Cymbalta, Lithium, Valium prn

March - start tapering Cymbalta by 10% April 10th - reduce May 1st - reduce May 24th - cold turkey (acupuncturist fool) - pretty bad withdrawal

May 27th - re-instate. June 29th - reduce. August 11th reduce. Sept 14th - reduce. Oct 23rd reduce. Nov 20th - reduce. Nov 29th - PROZAC SWITCH - started at equivalent dose to Cymbalta. 1/2 Lovan in 30ml water - take 10ml. Reduced by 1 ml at differing intervals - 3-5 weeks - until May 12th.

May12th - Antidepressant free!!

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I went back and read some of the tapering thread - I'm glad I did - and I'm going to hold for another couple of weeks and then re-assess.

I'm feeling really weak & wobbly, is that a symptom? I can't remember.

 

Zel. 

Dx ASD, Bipolar 2 & cPTSD

It started well before this (1990) but...

 

2008 - came off Efexor & Seoquel

2008? - 2016 Cymbalta, Lithium, Valium prn

(2015 - Valdoxan < 1 month 2016 - Provigil < 1 month

2016 - Straterra < 1 month)

 

March 2016 - Cymbalta, Lithium, Valium prn

March - start tapering Cymbalta by 10% April 10th - reduce May 1st - reduce May 24th - cold turkey (acupuncturist fool) - pretty bad withdrawal

May 27th - re-instate. June 29th - reduce. August 11th reduce. Sept 14th - reduce. Oct 23rd reduce. Nov 20th - reduce. Nov 29th - PROZAC SWITCH - started at equivalent dose to Cymbalta. 1/2 Lovan in 30ml water - take 10ml. Reduced by 1 ml at differing intervals - 3-5 weeks - until May 12th.

May12th - Antidepressant free!!

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  • Moderator Emeritus

Here's a link for checking symptoms:  Dr Joseph Glenmullen's Symptoms Checklist

* NO LONGER ACTIVE on SA *

MISSION ACCOMPLISHED:  (6 year taper)      0mg Pristiq  on 13th November 2021

ADs since ~1992:  25+ years - 1 unknown, Prozac (muscle weakness), Zoloft; citalopram (pooped out) CTed (very sick for 2.5 wks a few months after); Pristiq:  50mg 2012, 100mg beg 2013 (Serotonin Toxicity)  Tapering from Oct 2015 - 13 Nov 2021   LAST DOSE 0.0025mg

Post 0 updates start here    My tapering program     My Intro (goes to tapering graph)

 VIDEO:   Antidepressant Withdrawal Syndrome and its Management

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I've just come to the conclusion that my Bipolar 2 Dx may be incorrect in that, I think my hypomanic symptoms may be caused by antidepressants. I never had those symptoms before I started taking them.

 

Hello Zeldazonk,

 

There was a period last year when I had thought that I might have had bipolar type 2. I used to feel hypomanic quite frequently and then become deeply depressed soon afterwards and then back up again. Rapid cycling as they call it.

 

However, I feel that it is possible that they were withdrawal symptoms rather than an underlying condition as such. I was on/tapering different meds back then although I was tapering Effexor at the time, as I am now. Since I started on olanzapine (which I am trying to get off also) I don't think that I have been hypomanic very frequently if at all. But when I reflect, long before I ever started on meds full-time I used to have giddy spells. Laughing at silly stuff and carrying on with nonsense. Maybe it was a symptom of youth then  :lol:

 

I recall another period before I ever started tapering that I was quite manic. I was on meds then though. I have read that Effexor is not suitable for BP of any kind though. That is, if it's a genuine diagnosis rather than a catch all as someone else has pointed out.

 

Anyway, I just thought that I'd reply to your post since I can relate slightly.

 

Welcome to SA. I wish you all the best.  :)

Previously - zopiclone, risperidone, lyrica (pregabalin), ativan (lorezapam)
01/Aug/2016 -  65mg effexor, 4.5mg olanzapine, 15mg mirtazpine
12/Aug/2016 -  75mg effexor, 4.5mg olanzapine, 15mg mirtazpine
03/Oct/2016 -  70mg effexor, 4.5mg olanzapine, 15mg mirtazpine
29/Oct/2016 -  65mg effexor, 4.5mg olanzapine, 15mg mirtazpine
25/Nov/2016 -  65mg effexor, 4mg olanzapine, 15mg mirtazpine
25/Dec/2016 -  60mg effexor, 3.6mg olanzapine, 15mg mirtazpine
18/Jan/2017 -  60mg effexor, 5.25mg olanzapine, 15mg mirtazpine
27/Mar/2017 -  54mg effexor, 5.25mg olanzapine, 15mg mirtazpine
23/Apr/2017 -  54mg effexor, 7.5mg olanzapine, 15mg mirtazpine
09/May/2017 -  75mg effexor, 7.5mg olanzapine, 15mg mirtazpine
08/Jun/2017 -  75mg effexor, 6.75mg olanzapine, 15mg mirtazpine
18/Jul/2017 -  75mg effexor, 6mg olanzapine, 15mg mirtazpine
Sometimes valium. Not daily. Supplements - Sterols and Stanols.
Note : I would really hope that nobody uses my tapering history as a guideline. It might not work well for somebody else tapering similar medications.
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Thanks Chessie!

 

Blazesboylan,

 

thanks for your post!

I've gone back and forth on this for years, mainly when taking meds. I'm not trusting anything while I'm withdrawing, I'm just assuming it's all crazy withdrawal symptoms after taking meds for most of 25 years.

 

Certainly for me, I'm either slowed down to a grinding halt with depression, or I'm wired and speedy. I used to have brief periods of enjoying the high before it turning into excruciating irritability, but these days it's just the speediness & irritability.

 

I tend to have much more time uncomfortably wired and speedy than depressed, which isn't typical of bipolar, and has made me wonder if it's drug induced and/or is more of a chronically hyper-aroused sympathetic nervous system, which is more typical of PTSD and Autism Spectrum.

 

Hence my decision to taper Cymbalta which is complicated by Chronic Fatigue.

I'm finding I have to use my tiny dose of Valium (0.5 mg) now and then when I have to do something that's going to be over-stimulating, just to ease that hyper-arousal that makes the fatigue way worse - and that caused it, I believe.

 

Zel

Dx ASD, Bipolar 2 & cPTSD

It started well before this (1990) but...

 

2008 - came off Efexor & Seoquel

2008? - 2016 Cymbalta, Lithium, Valium prn

(2015 - Valdoxan < 1 month 2016 - Provigil < 1 month

2016 - Straterra < 1 month)

 

March 2016 - Cymbalta, Lithium, Valium prn

March - start tapering Cymbalta by 10% April 10th - reduce May 1st - reduce May 24th - cold turkey (acupuncturist fool) - pretty bad withdrawal

May 27th - re-instate. June 29th - reduce. August 11th reduce. Sept 14th - reduce. Oct 23rd reduce. Nov 20th - reduce. Nov 29th - PROZAC SWITCH - started at equivalent dose to Cymbalta. 1/2 Lovan in 30ml water - take 10ml. Reduced by 1 ml at differing intervals - 3-5 weeks - until May 12th.

May12th - Antidepressant free!!

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Hi Zel,

 

I would imagine, although I can't stay for certain that your symptoms are possibly related to withdrawal. I can be quite irritable at times myself. For the last while I have been irritable at times I suppose. I am thinking that it's a withdrawal symptom. So, I am holding steady for a while until it passes. I am sure that it will though. I may be seeing some light at the end of the tunnel, as they say.

 

Personally I don't find valium to be of much use. As I was saying on another thread, I could take 10 mgs at a time and it wouldn't necessarily do much for my anxiety if it was intense. So, I haven't used it for almost 3 weeks now. However, if it works for you then well and good. 0.5 mg is very little also.

 

Anyway, be careful. Take it slowly and don't be afraid to re-instate if you have to. I don't know anything about cymbalta unfortunately so I can't advise except in a general way.

 

I hope that you are having a good week anyway.

 

Blazes.

Previously - zopiclone, risperidone, lyrica (pregabalin), ativan (lorezapam)
01/Aug/2016 -  65mg effexor, 4.5mg olanzapine, 15mg mirtazpine
12/Aug/2016 -  75mg effexor, 4.5mg olanzapine, 15mg mirtazpine
03/Oct/2016 -  70mg effexor, 4.5mg olanzapine, 15mg mirtazpine
29/Oct/2016 -  65mg effexor, 4.5mg olanzapine, 15mg mirtazpine
25/Nov/2016 -  65mg effexor, 4mg olanzapine, 15mg mirtazpine
25/Dec/2016 -  60mg effexor, 3.6mg olanzapine, 15mg mirtazpine
18/Jan/2017 -  60mg effexor, 5.25mg olanzapine, 15mg mirtazpine
27/Mar/2017 -  54mg effexor, 5.25mg olanzapine, 15mg mirtazpine
23/Apr/2017 -  54mg effexor, 7.5mg olanzapine, 15mg mirtazpine
09/May/2017 -  75mg effexor, 7.5mg olanzapine, 15mg mirtazpine
08/Jun/2017 -  75mg effexor, 6.75mg olanzapine, 15mg mirtazpine
18/Jul/2017 -  75mg effexor, 6mg olanzapine, 15mg mirtazpine
Sometimes valium. Not daily. Supplements - Sterols and Stanols.
Note : I would really hope that nobody uses my tapering history as a guideline. It might not work well for somebody else tapering similar medications.
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  • 1 month later...

Hi all,

 

Just thought I'd write an update.

I'm now down to 12mg (from 30) of Cymbalta.

Very depressed. Very very little pleasure, don't look forward to anything. Can't see the point of anything.

Very lonely in my illness even though I have people around me.

Put on a good front so I don't think my psych knows how distressed I am.

 

Wondering if this is just a phase or if the depression has been getting worse gradually the whole time.

If this continues I'll probably go back on meds. Just have to figure out how long to wait.

I do want to completely come off Cymbalta because I've come so far.

And then I'd like to wait at least 6 months and observe, but I can't go on like this for too long.

 

Best, Zel.

Dx ASD, Bipolar 2 & cPTSD

It started well before this (1990) but...

 

2008 - came off Efexor & Seoquel

2008? - 2016 Cymbalta, Lithium, Valium prn

(2015 - Valdoxan < 1 month 2016 - Provigil < 1 month

2016 - Straterra < 1 month)

 

March 2016 - Cymbalta, Lithium, Valium prn

March - start tapering Cymbalta by 10% April 10th - reduce May 1st - reduce May 24th - cold turkey (acupuncturist fool) - pretty bad withdrawal

May 27th - re-instate. June 29th - reduce. August 11th reduce. Sept 14th - reduce. Oct 23rd reduce. Nov 20th - reduce. Nov 29th - PROZAC SWITCH - started at equivalent dose to Cymbalta. 1/2 Lovan in 30ml water - take 10ml. Reduced by 1 ml at differing intervals - 3-5 weeks - until May 12th.

May12th - Antidepressant free!!

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  • Moderator Emeritus

How long have you been having these symptoms?

This is not medical advice. Discuss any decisions about your medical care with a knowledgeable medical practitioner.
1997-1999 Effexor; 2002-2005 Effexor XR 37.5 mg linear taper, dropping same #beads/week with bad results

Cymbalta 60 mg 2012 - 2015; 2016: 20 mg to 7 mg exact doses and dates in this post; 2017: 6.3 mg to  0.0 mg  Aug. 12; details here


scallywag's Introduction
Online spreadsheet for dose taper calculations and nz11's THE WORKS spreadsheet

Link to comment

It's so hard to say - I should keep better records.

 

Looking at my calendar, I can see that for the last 3 weeks I have been particularly down.

As in, I haven't been really irritable, agitated or hyper-aroused which usually alternates with slowed down depression.

 

I look at the bigger arc though, and I think my depression is worsening over-all this year. It's affecting my family.

So hard to say though because, as I've said before, I've never been euthymic so my subjective judgement is questionable.

 

I'm wondering if it might be worth speaking to a psychopharmacologist... 

 

Thinking about Trans-cranial Magnetic Stimulation. Anyone tried it?

 

Best, Zel.

Dx ASD, Bipolar 2 & cPTSD

It started well before this (1990) but...

 

2008 - came off Efexor & Seoquel

2008? - 2016 Cymbalta, Lithium, Valium prn

(2015 - Valdoxan < 1 month 2016 - Provigil < 1 month

2016 - Straterra < 1 month)

 

March 2016 - Cymbalta, Lithium, Valium prn

March - start tapering Cymbalta by 10% April 10th - reduce May 1st - reduce May 24th - cold turkey (acupuncturist fool) - pretty bad withdrawal

May 27th - re-instate. June 29th - reduce. August 11th reduce. Sept 14th - reduce. Oct 23rd reduce. Nov 20th - reduce. Nov 29th - PROZAC SWITCH - started at equivalent dose to Cymbalta. 1/2 Lovan in 30ml water - take 10ml. Reduced by 1 ml at differing intervals - 3-5 weeks - until May 12th.

May12th - Antidepressant free!!

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  • Moderator Emeritus

The worsened symptoms are likely a wave. How do you feel about holding at your current dose of 12mg for longer than usual, say several months?

 

Here are some topics on cranial stimulation techniques.

 

Alpha-Stim, Fisher Wallace Sota Biotuner, PoNS, and simil...

 

TMS (Transcranial Magnetic Stimulation)?

This is not medical advice. Discuss any decisions about your medical care with a knowledgeable medical practitioner.
1997-1999 Effexor; 2002-2005 Effexor XR 37.5 mg linear taper, dropping same #beads/week with bad results

Cymbalta 60 mg 2012 - 2015; 2016: 20 mg to 7 mg exact doses and dates in this post; 2017: 6.3 mg to  0.0 mg  Aug. 12; details here


scallywag's Introduction
Online spreadsheet for dose taper calculations and nz11's THE WORKS spreadsheet

Link to comment

Thanks Scallywag,

 

Yeah, that sounds like a plan.

I guess that might eventually make it clear whether it's a wave or just my depression with less medication.

 

I see we're on a similar doses of Cymbalta! How're you feeling?

I'll go & read your Intro post.

 

Zel.

Dx ASD, Bipolar 2 & cPTSD

It started well before this (1990) but...

 

2008 - came off Efexor & Seoquel

2008? - 2016 Cymbalta, Lithium, Valium prn

(2015 - Valdoxan < 1 month 2016 - Provigil < 1 month

2016 - Straterra < 1 month)

 

March 2016 - Cymbalta, Lithium, Valium prn

March - start tapering Cymbalta by 10% April 10th - reduce May 1st - reduce May 24th - cold turkey (acupuncturist fool) - pretty bad withdrawal

May 27th - re-instate. June 29th - reduce. August 11th reduce. Sept 14th - reduce. Oct 23rd reduce. Nov 20th - reduce. Nov 29th - PROZAC SWITCH - started at equivalent dose to Cymbalta. 1/2 Lovan in 30ml water - take 10ml. Reduced by 1 ml at differing intervals - 3-5 weeks - until May 12th.

May12th - Antidepressant free!!

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Hey Scallywag,

 

I just noticed a conversation you were having with Karen B in your intro thread.

 

She said: "If getting off drugs is what you feel is important, then it really doesn't matter whether it's withdrawal or relapse."

 

With me, getting off the drugs is not the most important thing at all, it's figuring out if using them for so long is causing adverse effects for me... The main point for me is to be as well as possible as I am very unwell presently and have been for many years.

If, through all this experimenting, I conclude that actually, I'm better off on meds, I'll happily go back on them.

 

​So, I guess that's why I'm always so interested in what's causing what - drugs or illness.  :) 

 

Best, Zel

Dx ASD, Bipolar 2 & cPTSD

It started well before this (1990) but...

 

2008 - came off Efexor & Seoquel

2008? - 2016 Cymbalta, Lithium, Valium prn

(2015 - Valdoxan < 1 month 2016 - Provigil < 1 month

2016 - Straterra < 1 month)

 

March 2016 - Cymbalta, Lithium, Valium prn

March - start tapering Cymbalta by 10% April 10th - reduce May 1st - reduce May 24th - cold turkey (acupuncturist fool) - pretty bad withdrawal

May 27th - re-instate. June 29th - reduce. August 11th reduce. Sept 14th - reduce. Oct 23rd reduce. Nov 20th - reduce. Nov 29th - PROZAC SWITCH - started at equivalent dose to Cymbalta. 1/2 Lovan in 30ml water - take 10ml. Reduced by 1 ml at differing intervals - 3-5 weeks - until May 12th.

May12th - Antidepressant free!!

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  • Moderator Emeritus

Zelda, are you keeping notes on paper about your symptoms?  If not, please consider starting. Here is a post about the kind of notes that are most helpful in trying to identify the source of symptoms -- withdrawal or something else:

Take notes of doses and symptoms

 

My taper from Cymbalta has largely been uneventful. I often don't really notice a wave until it's over and I'm feeling more energetic and able to focus. I'm lucky that waves are that mild for me.

This is not medical advice. Discuss any decisions about your medical care with a knowledgeable medical practitioner.
1997-1999 Effexor; 2002-2005 Effexor XR 37.5 mg linear taper, dropping same #beads/week with bad results

Cymbalta 60 mg 2012 - 2015; 2016: 20 mg to 7 mg exact doses and dates in this post; 2017: 6.3 mg to  0.0 mg  Aug. 12; details here


scallywag's Introduction
Online spreadsheet for dose taper calculations and nz11's THE WORKS spreadsheet

Link to comment

Thanks Scallywag, I'll start keeping a diary.

 

So, I've swung up to less grinding depression, more energy, irritability and horrible agitation. Had a violent meltdown this morning. Luckily my daughter was at school. I'm still recovering.

 

This is all familiar territory for me, but is on the more severe side of things I suppose. The lower I go, the "higher" I go...

 

So at the moment I'm not sure if that's a wave or not.?

One of the things I'm trying to figure out is whether AD's have caused these swings. I don't know if I'll ever be able to tell.

 

I'll stick to this dose for a little while and see what happens.

 

Best, Zel.

 

PS is your depression under control?

Dx ASD, Bipolar 2 & cPTSD

It started well before this (1990) but...

 

2008 - came off Efexor & Seoquel

2008? - 2016 Cymbalta, Lithium, Valium prn

(2015 - Valdoxan < 1 month 2016 - Provigil < 1 month

2016 - Straterra < 1 month)

 

March 2016 - Cymbalta, Lithium, Valium prn

March - start tapering Cymbalta by 10% April 10th - reduce May 1st - reduce May 24th - cold turkey (acupuncturist fool) - pretty bad withdrawal

May 27th - re-instate. June 29th - reduce. August 11th reduce. Sept 14th - reduce. Oct 23rd reduce. Nov 20th - reduce. Nov 29th - PROZAC SWITCH - started at equivalent dose to Cymbalta. 1/2 Lovan in 30ml water - take 10ml. Reduced by 1 ml at differing intervals - 3-5 weeks - until May 12th.

May12th - Antidepressant free!!

Link to comment

I just can't figure out how to get onto a particular member's intro and updates page. Can someone help?

 

I'm trying to find cymbaltawithdrawal5600's pages - I looked at them briefly the other day and there's sooo much to wade through I don't think I have the energy to do it anyway. 

 

Is it possible / appropriate to summarise her story for me?

I know it sounds a bit strange but I have really bad fatigue and there are pages and pages to read - mostly not about Cymbalta withdrawal  :lol: .

Dx ASD, Bipolar 2 & cPTSD

It started well before this (1990) but...

 

2008 - came off Efexor & Seoquel

2008? - 2016 Cymbalta, Lithium, Valium prn

(2015 - Valdoxan < 1 month 2016 - Provigil < 1 month

2016 - Straterra < 1 month)

 

March 2016 - Cymbalta, Lithium, Valium prn

March - start tapering Cymbalta by 10% April 10th - reduce May 1st - reduce May 24th - cold turkey (acupuncturist fool) - pretty bad withdrawal

May 27th - re-instate. June 29th - reduce. August 11th reduce. Sept 14th - reduce. Oct 23rd reduce. Nov 20th - reduce. Nov 29th - PROZAC SWITCH - started at equivalent dose to Cymbalta. 1/2 Lovan in 30ml water - take 10ml. Reduced by 1 ml at differing intervals - 3-5 weeks - until May 12th.

May12th - Antidepressant free!!

Link to comment
  • 4 weeks later...

Still cycling more consistently and extremely than when on Cymbalta.

A couple of times, as I'm about to swing up or down, I've had a night sweat which is obviously a drug thing.

 

I was talking to my daughter's psych, and she was saying that with bipolar and antidepressants, it's complicated because some people are activated by antiD's, which can look like hypomania but isn't. And then there are people who are actually bipolar and switch on antidepressants. Telling them apart is the challenge I suppose. I wanted to ask "How do you tell them apart?" but we were running out of time and it was my daughter's session so I didn't ask.

 

I'm guessing you take the person off the meds and see what happens which, as we know, is easier said than done...

This is all assuming there was no previous hypomania of course.

 

I see in the symptoms list it says 'mood swings', which i think of as different to cycling. Any thoughts?  

Have people found that their cycling increases / worsens during withdrawal?

Dx ASD, Bipolar 2 & cPTSD

It started well before this (1990) but...

 

2008 - came off Efexor & Seoquel

2008? - 2016 Cymbalta, Lithium, Valium prn

(2015 - Valdoxan < 1 month 2016 - Provigil < 1 month

2016 - Straterra < 1 month)

 

March 2016 - Cymbalta, Lithium, Valium prn

March - start tapering Cymbalta by 10% April 10th - reduce May 1st - reduce May 24th - cold turkey (acupuncturist fool) - pretty bad withdrawal

May 27th - re-instate. June 29th - reduce. August 11th reduce. Sept 14th - reduce. Oct 23rd reduce. Nov 20th - reduce. Nov 29th - PROZAC SWITCH - started at equivalent dose to Cymbalta. 1/2 Lovan in 30ml water - take 10ml. Reduced by 1 ml at differing intervals - 3-5 weeks - until May 12th.

May12th - Antidepressant free!!

Link to comment

Has anyone got a take on this?

 

From thinking & doing a bit of research, I've figured out that I had a doozie of a hypomanic episode after being off all medication for at least a year (14 months I think), followed by a horrendous agitated depressive episode.

 

(This is important because it's the longest period of time I've been off meds in my adult life.)

Is this proof that I have bipolar 2?

 

I'm still remembering and researching back to before I was on any meds. A long time ago!

 

This doesn't mean I'm going to stop tapering. I'm still interested to see what I'm like without antidepressants.

 

Best, Zel

Dx ASD, Bipolar 2 & cPTSD

It started well before this (1990) but...

 

2008 - came off Efexor & Seoquel

2008? - 2016 Cymbalta, Lithium, Valium prn

(2015 - Valdoxan < 1 month 2016 - Provigil < 1 month

2016 - Straterra < 1 month)

 

March 2016 - Cymbalta, Lithium, Valium prn

March - start tapering Cymbalta by 10% April 10th - reduce May 1st - reduce May 24th - cold turkey (acupuncturist fool) - pretty bad withdrawal

May 27th - re-instate. June 29th - reduce. August 11th reduce. Sept 14th - reduce. Oct 23rd reduce. Nov 20th - reduce. Nov 29th - PROZAC SWITCH - started at equivalent dose to Cymbalta. 1/2 Lovan in 30ml water - take 10ml. Reduced by 1 ml at differing intervals - 3-5 weeks - until May 12th.

May12th - Antidepressant free!!

Link to comment
  • Moderator Emeritus

It's hard to say.  How did you discontinue the medications the year before?

This is not medical advice. Discuss any decisions about your medical care with a knowledgeable medical practitioner.
1997-1999 Effexor; 2002-2005 Effexor XR 37.5 mg linear taper, dropping same #beads/week with bad results

Cymbalta 60 mg 2012 - 2015; 2016: 20 mg to 7 mg exact doses and dates in this post; 2017: 6.3 mg to  0.0 mg  Aug. 12; details here


scallywag's Introduction
Online spreadsheet for dose taper calculations and nz11's THE WORKS spreadsheet

Link to comment

Yeah, I was thinking about that.

 

In the months before stopping meds completely I was on Zyprexa and Effexor. I think I may have been on another antidepressant actually, and switched to Effexor.

I was in hospital for 3 or4 weeks.

I stopped the Zyprexa in hospital - it would have been cold turkey, I don't think I was on it very long. No obvious problems at the time.

That would've been in July of 1999.

 

The Effexor I stopped at home. I would have tapered it but only over a short time - a month or so. I think that was not long after leaving hospital, so August / September.

Again, no obvious problems at the time.

 

A very stressful event occurred in January 2000 which shot me up into an extremely heightened state for months. (I might even classify that as hypomania which lessens the amount of time between meds cessation and a h-manic episode).That settled a bit after April.

In October / November I had this more extreme hypomania which lasted a couple of weeks and, as I said, then I plummeted into an awful depression.

 

Anyway Scallywag, I guess it's just all too hard to dissect maybe. I'm just a bit obsessed with being a detective at the moment.

 

I s'pose it did seem like a longish time between stopping meds (August) and having an awful episode clearly triggered by something (Oct of next year) for that episode to be meds induced...

Really, whether I'm Bipolar or not, I guess I'm just investigating whether antidepressants do me more harm than good. 

 

Best, Zel

Dx ASD, Bipolar 2 & cPTSD

It started well before this (1990) but...

 

2008 - came off Efexor & Seoquel

2008? - 2016 Cymbalta, Lithium, Valium prn

(2015 - Valdoxan < 1 month 2016 - Provigil < 1 month

2016 - Straterra < 1 month)

 

March 2016 - Cymbalta, Lithium, Valium prn

March - start tapering Cymbalta by 10% April 10th - reduce May 1st - reduce May 24th - cold turkey (acupuncturist fool) - pretty bad withdrawal

May 27th - re-instate. June 29th - reduce. August 11th reduce. Sept 14th - reduce. Oct 23rd reduce. Nov 20th - reduce. Nov 29th - PROZAC SWITCH - started at equivalent dose to Cymbalta. 1/2 Lovan in 30ml water - take 10ml. Reduced by 1 ml at differing intervals - 3-5 weeks - until May 12th.

May12th - Antidepressant free!!

Link to comment
  • Moderator Emeritus

I didn't realize you were referring to something that happened more than 15 years ago. That's far less relevant than medications and dose changes in the last year or so.

This is not medical advice. Discuss any decisions about your medical care with a knowledgeable medical practitioner.
1997-1999 Effexor; 2002-2005 Effexor XR 37.5 mg linear taper, dropping same #beads/week with bad results

Cymbalta 60 mg 2012 - 2015; 2016: 20 mg to 7 mg exact doses and dates in this post; 2017: 6.3 mg to  0.0 mg  Aug. 12; details here


scallywag's Introduction
Online spreadsheet for dose taper calculations and nz11's THE WORKS spreadsheet

Link to comment

Well, I'm trying to figure out if I'm bipolar or not so I'm looking back over my history.

Dx ASD, Bipolar 2 & cPTSD

It started well before this (1990) but...

 

2008 - came off Efexor & Seoquel

2008? - 2016 Cymbalta, Lithium, Valium prn

(2015 - Valdoxan < 1 month 2016 - Provigil < 1 month

2016 - Straterra < 1 month)

 

March 2016 - Cymbalta, Lithium, Valium prn

March - start tapering Cymbalta by 10% April 10th - reduce May 1st - reduce May 24th - cold turkey (acupuncturist fool) - pretty bad withdrawal

May 27th - re-instate. June 29th - reduce. August 11th reduce. Sept 14th - reduce. Oct 23rd reduce. Nov 20th - reduce. Nov 29th - PROZAC SWITCH - started at equivalent dose to Cymbalta. 1/2 Lovan in 30ml water - take 10ml. Reduced by 1 ml at differing intervals - 3-5 weeks - until May 12th.

May12th - Antidepressant free!!

Link to comment
  • Moderator Emeritus

Many people are diagnosed with bipolar, especially bipolar II, when in fact they are actually dealing with symptoms of a destabilized CNS (central nervous system), the result of withdrawing from psycho-neuro-active medications.

 

Your questioning of what happened in '99 & '00 and seems to suggest that your diagnosis occurred in a similar fashion.

This is not medical advice. Discuss any decisions about your medical care with a knowledgeable medical practitioner.
1997-1999 Effexor; 2002-2005 Effexor XR 37.5 mg linear taper, dropping same #beads/week with bad results

Cymbalta 60 mg 2012 - 2015; 2016: 20 mg to 7 mg exact doses and dates in this post; 2017: 6.3 mg to  0.0 mg  Aug. 12; details here


scallywag's Introduction
Online spreadsheet for dose taper calculations and nz11's THE WORKS spreadsheet

Link to comment

Possibly, yes. Very hard to tell I think.

Also possible that I'm bipolar and the antiD's have played havoc with that condition.

Anyhow, as I said, I have to focus on the fact that I'm just seeing how I'll be without them. If I can last.

It's difficult because I'm deathly depressed and struggling to see the point in anything.

 

Zel.

Dx ASD, Bipolar 2 & cPTSD

It started well before this (1990) but...

 

2008 - came off Efexor & Seoquel

2008? - 2016 Cymbalta, Lithium, Valium prn

(2015 - Valdoxan < 1 month 2016 - Provigil < 1 month

2016 - Straterra < 1 month)

 

March 2016 - Cymbalta, Lithium, Valium prn

March - start tapering Cymbalta by 10% April 10th - reduce May 1st - reduce May 24th - cold turkey (acupuncturist fool) - pretty bad withdrawal

May 27th - re-instate. June 29th - reduce. August 11th reduce. Sept 14th - reduce. Oct 23rd reduce. Nov 20th - reduce. Nov 29th - PROZAC SWITCH - started at equivalent dose to Cymbalta. 1/2 Lovan in 30ml water - take 10ml. Reduced by 1 ml at differing intervals - 3-5 weeks - until May 12th.

May12th - Antidepressant free!!

Link to comment

I think I have had a couple of windows over the last few months but they only last a few days...

Trying to remember that the severity of this depression / hypomania is at least largely withdrawal induced. 

I just hope it eases up soon.

I can tell that the Cymbal's effect is diminishing coz I'm gaining my "Seroquel weight" back.  :wacko:

Dx ASD, Bipolar 2 & cPTSD

It started well before this (1990) but...

 

2008 - came off Efexor & Seoquel

2008? - 2016 Cymbalta, Lithium, Valium prn

(2015 - Valdoxan < 1 month 2016 - Provigil < 1 month

2016 - Straterra < 1 month)

 

March 2016 - Cymbalta, Lithium, Valium prn

March - start tapering Cymbalta by 10% April 10th - reduce May 1st - reduce May 24th - cold turkey (acupuncturist fool) - pretty bad withdrawal

May 27th - re-instate. June 29th - reduce. August 11th reduce. Sept 14th - reduce. Oct 23rd reduce. Nov 20th - reduce. Nov 29th - PROZAC SWITCH - started at equivalent dose to Cymbalta. 1/2 Lovan in 30ml water - take 10ml. Reduced by 1 ml at differing intervals - 3-5 weeks - until May 12th.

May12th - Antidepressant free!!

Link to comment
  • Moderator Emeritus

Have you considered holding at your Cymbalta dose for a while? And after holding a couple of months, you could reassess: whether to continue with Cymbalta or switch to tapering Lithium.

This is not medical advice. Discuss any decisions about your medical care with a knowledgeable medical practitioner.
1997-1999 Effexor; 2002-2005 Effexor XR 37.5 mg linear taper, dropping same #beads/week with bad results

Cymbalta 60 mg 2012 - 2015; 2016: 20 mg to 7 mg exact doses and dates in this post; 2017: 6.3 mg to  0.0 mg  Aug. 12; details here


scallywag's Introduction
Online spreadsheet for dose taper calculations and nz11's THE WORKS spreadsheet

Link to comment

Oh my god, I haven't really thought about tapering Lithium at all.

My mood cycling is so intense at the moment I don't know if it would be a good idea.? Do you think it would be a good move?

 

I've come up for air today after that horrendous depressive wave. Can already feel the extreme discomfort of the hypo-mania / hyperarousal coming though.

It's amazing how hard it is - when you're in a wave - to clearly see what's happening.

There's some vague intellectual knowledge that what I'm in the midst of is drug withdrawal, but it doesn't quite hit home somehow.

 

Then, when I come up for air like today, I see it clearly. I remember the last time I stopped taking AD's, and how I felt worse than ever.

Just this time, I don't know how long worse than ever will last.

 

Zel.

Dx ASD, Bipolar 2 & cPTSD

It started well before this (1990) but...

 

2008 - came off Efexor & Seoquel

2008? - 2016 Cymbalta, Lithium, Valium prn

(2015 - Valdoxan < 1 month 2016 - Provigil < 1 month

2016 - Straterra < 1 month)

 

March 2016 - Cymbalta, Lithium, Valium prn

March - start tapering Cymbalta by 10% April 10th - reduce May 1st - reduce May 24th - cold turkey (acupuncturist fool) - pretty bad withdrawal

May 27th - re-instate. June 29th - reduce. August 11th reduce. Sept 14th - reduce. Oct 23rd reduce. Nov 20th - reduce. Nov 29th - PROZAC SWITCH - started at equivalent dose to Cymbalta. 1/2 Lovan in 30ml water - take 10ml. Reduced by 1 ml at differing intervals - 3-5 weeks - until May 12th.

May12th - Antidepressant free!!

Link to comment
  • Moderator Emeritus

Have you considered holding at your Cymbalta dose for a while? And after holding for at least a couple of months, you *could* reassess: whether to continue with Cymbalta or switch to tapering Lithium.

I wasn't suggesting that you taper Lithium right now but as something to consider after your symptoms have stabilized from a hold of several months at your current dose of Cymbalta.

This is not medical advice. Discuss any decisions about your medical care with a knowledgeable medical practitioner.
1997-1999 Effexor; 2002-2005 Effexor XR 37.5 mg linear taper, dropping same #beads/week with bad results

Cymbalta 60 mg 2012 - 2015; 2016: 20 mg to 7 mg exact doses and dates in this post; 2017: 6.3 mg to  0.0 mg  Aug. 12; details here


scallywag's Introduction
Online spreadsheet for dose taper calculations and nz11's THE WORKS spreadsheet

Link to comment

Oh yeah, I see.  :)

 

Well, since my goal isn't necessarily to be off medication, I think I'll just concentrate on getting off the anti-D's and see what happens.

 

Zel.

Dx ASD, Bipolar 2 & cPTSD

It started well before this (1990) but...

 

2008 - came off Efexor & Seoquel

2008? - 2016 Cymbalta, Lithium, Valium prn

(2015 - Valdoxan < 1 month 2016 - Provigil < 1 month

2016 - Straterra < 1 month)

 

March 2016 - Cymbalta, Lithium, Valium prn

March - start tapering Cymbalta by 10% April 10th - reduce May 1st - reduce May 24th - cold turkey (acupuncturist fool) - pretty bad withdrawal

May 27th - re-instate. June 29th - reduce. August 11th reduce. Sept 14th - reduce. Oct 23rd reduce. Nov 20th - reduce. Nov 29th - PROZAC SWITCH - started at equivalent dose to Cymbalta. 1/2 Lovan in 30ml water - take 10ml. Reduced by 1 ml at differing intervals - 3-5 weeks - until May 12th.

May12th - Antidepressant free!!

Link to comment
  • 3 months later...

So, I ended up doing the Prozac switch in November which was a good move. The physical symptoms were reduced very quickly.

My moods have continued to cycle quite extremely and I'd say my depression and fatigue have steadily worsened.

 

I'm now on between 3 and 4 mg of Lovan. Prozac never worked for me as an antidepressant so I sort of feel like I'm not on an AD anyway.

 

The thing I have to work out now is what to do about the fact that I'm very unwell indeed and can't go on like this indefinitely.

I was about to try Buspar, thinking that perhaps if I managed the constant hyper-arousal / "wiredness", I might not sink to such depths of depression, but 

I've decided to at least postpone that for a while so I can keep observing myself now as I come off AD's completely.

 

I think my next move is to try TMS as it's become available on a day patient basis not too far from me.

I'll let you know how it goes.

 

I'm still wondering how long I have to wait to feel that I can judge my mental health as it is - not as a side effect of meds.

 

Zel.

 

Dx ASD, Bipolar 2 & cPTSD

It started well before this (1990) but...

 

2008 - came off Efexor & Seoquel

2008? - 2016 Cymbalta, Lithium, Valium prn

(2015 - Valdoxan < 1 month 2016 - Provigil < 1 month

2016 - Straterra < 1 month)

 

March 2016 - Cymbalta, Lithium, Valium prn

March - start tapering Cymbalta by 10% April 10th - reduce May 1st - reduce May 24th - cold turkey (acupuncturist fool) - pretty bad withdrawal

May 27th - re-instate. June 29th - reduce. August 11th reduce. Sept 14th - reduce. Oct 23rd reduce. Nov 20th - reduce. Nov 29th - PROZAC SWITCH - started at equivalent dose to Cymbalta. 1/2 Lovan in 30ml water - take 10ml. Reduced by 1 ml at differing intervals - 3-5 weeks - until May 12th.

May12th - Antidepressant free!!

Link to comment

Quote function not working.

 

scallywag said:

 

 

"Many people are diagnosed with bipolar, especially bipolar II, when in fact they are actually dealing with symptoms of a destabilized CNS (central nervous system), the result of withdrawing from psycho-neuro-active medications."

 

...and other things like complex PTSD and ASD. I don't think we can say with certainty that every symptom can be attributed solely to medication withdrawal.

 

Zel.

Dx ASD, Bipolar 2 & cPTSD

It started well before this (1990) but...

 

2008 - came off Efexor & Seoquel

2008? - 2016 Cymbalta, Lithium, Valium prn

(2015 - Valdoxan < 1 month 2016 - Provigil < 1 month

2016 - Straterra < 1 month)

 

March 2016 - Cymbalta, Lithium, Valium prn

March - start tapering Cymbalta by 10% April 10th - reduce May 1st - reduce May 24th - cold turkey (acupuncturist fool) - pretty bad withdrawal

May 27th - re-instate. June 29th - reduce. August 11th reduce. Sept 14th - reduce. Oct 23rd reduce. Nov 20th - reduce. Nov 29th - PROZAC SWITCH - started at equivalent dose to Cymbalta. 1/2 Lovan in 30ml water - take 10ml. Reduced by 1 ml at differing intervals - 3-5 weeks - until May 12th.

May12th - Antidepressant free!!

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