MNgal1960: need to get off of 3 meds

[JanCarol]

Hey MNgal!

 

Welcome to SA!

 

I'm sorry to hear about your son.  His symptoms sound like he is drug agitated already - he may not be on an antidepressant, but are there other mood-affecting drugs that he might be suffering from?

 

Your restless legs and sleep issues make me wonder about your Magnesium and Vitamin D levels.  Next time you are at a doctor, get the D levels done (you live in that northern clime, where people never seem to get anough Vitamin D).  But start the magnesium sooner.  

Sometimes when someone is deficient in D, they have reactions to taking D, unless they have enough magnesium.

 

Also, fish oil may be helpful for your healing - it provides "lubrication" for the joints and nerve endings, which could be very helpful in your case.

 

ALWAYS when starting any supplements, start low and build up to a daily dose, in case you have a reaction.  Anyhow, read more about it here:

Magnesium and Omega-3 fish oil

http://survivingantidepressants.org/index.php?/topic/39-vitamin-d3-cholecalciferol-or-calcitriol/

 

CBT is good - as always, it depends on the practitioner.  It helps to have a tool in your toolkit for coping.  CBT is a good tool.  Mindfulness is another:  Mindfulness and Acceptance

 

When you are laying awake at night, or having tingling crawling restless legs, or muscle twitches, or overwhelming fatigue, Mindfulness will guide you to acknowledge, accept, and float.  AAF.  Acknowledge:  I am awake.  Accept that you are awake, and just float, let go. do not attach new suffering or new emotions to the experience.  Just experience what is there.

 

Our own GiaK, who has a blog called Beyond Meds, talks about how her symptoms are her greatest teacher.  Here is one tiny sample of her writing:  http://beyondmeds.com/2014/11/22/choice-and-emotion/

 

I hope you see the sun today.

[coldturkmama]

I have been having loads of pain which I'm guessing is a wave. I have horrible hip pain right now. 36 yrs old and I feel like I'm 80! :/

Lol

[MNgal1960]

Hi JanCarol. Thanks for the welcome. No, my son is not on any meds at all. He learned from watching me to stay away from them. He was under a lot of stress living with me and it was a very long commute to school. I guess he was stuffing the stress. Actually, yes, I'd say he was really stuffing the stress until he exploded. He found a place closer to school but far away from me. Then he needed to find a job to pay for his new lease, so that was more stress.  He doesn't like the job. He doesn't like the apartment. He doesn't like school. He's now far away from his friends here. Just too many changes all at once. Out of the frying pan and into the fire. He was home Easter weekend, but was agitated, rude, and on edge. I wanted him home but I didn't want him home. What I want back is the son I used to know. Wish he would go talk to the school counselor, but zero chance of that.

 

I've had my D tested and do take D. I also take a rather low dose of magnesium and a multivitamin. Again, not mega-doses. Except I do take a high dose of D and B12 and have for years because my doctor tested me years ago and found me kind of low on both. I used to take fish oil, but now I eat salmon several times a week, so I thought I didn't need it any more. Do you think I need more than that?

 

Not sure if I mentioned I suffered from chronic pain. A few months ago I got a book/CD about mindfulness for chronic pain. It really is how to deal with anxiety that results from pain. I have learned so much from it. There are guided meditations on it. All very short because they are for people who are in pain and are tired already. I try to do at least one a day. Yesterday, my fatigue and pain were so bad I was only able to do a few minutes. But I try to do them twice/day.

 

I will go have a look at that link. I've been on that site, but got a bit lost clicking around on it.   Hard to focus.

 

Thank you for your kind words. No sun here, only cold and then rain. But am going to try to at least get outside anyway. Maybe a short walk before the rain starts. I can go about a block. It seems so pathetic, but if I can get dressed and go for a short walk, at least that's a step toward a stronger me.

 

MN

[MNgal1960]

CTM, I can so relate to that! But you don't have to be 80 to have lots of aches and pains. Sorry to say, that starts up much younger!

 

Hope today is a better day for you.

 

Hugs,

MN

[MNgal1960]

I posted a question about these two meds over on my benzo taper thread because I wasn't sure where to put it. If anyone has any ideas about how to help me with these meds and the odd way I am taking them (because of two different doctors prescribing them two different ways), would you please look at my thread? I'm having a terrible time. My thread starts "want to try again." Thank you.

[Rockingchaircat]

Have you tried a Full Spectrum Light? For getting some kind of serotonin enhancing effect?

 

http://psycheducation.org/treatment/bipolar-disorder-light-and-darkness/light-therapies-for-depression/

 

It's not much- but I find that even a few minutes a day can go a long ways towards helping with the gloom.

[MNgal1960]

Thank you. No, I haven't. I will look at the link when my brain is working.

[psych]

Bump.

[MNgal1960]

Awww, thanks psych!

[MNgal1960]

OK, I am going to try to ask this simpler and hope I get a response.

 

I had severe insomnia (trauma-related) and was put on Valium by previous psych. Obviously that was a mistake. I habituated to it quickly. It no longer does anything for sleep.

 

New psych knows my sleep is a disaster but is anti-benzo and wants me off. He says to take Seroquel (25mg) nightly so I can sleep while I wean off the Valium.

 

I have been trying to skip nights of Seroquel in hopes of not getting hooked on it or habituate to it. I thought it had a short half life and that would work. Then I found out it has active metabolites so is actually in me much longer than I thought. I think perhaps I am hooked on it to some degree. I have become so unstable I am not able to care for myself without my daughter's help. I wonder if I should just do what the doctor says and take the Seroquel every night. But I am very afraid of habituating to it.  Two doctors and three pharmacists said I will not habituate to it. I find that hard to believe. I'm resisting.

 

But, I am starting to think that the Seroquel is a player in why I am so unstable because I am taking it 2 nights on and 1 night off. (The night I don't take it, I take extra gabapentin so I get some sleep, better than nothing.) But I am an exhausted mess, symptoms all over the place and can't imagine continuing to taper anything until I can get stable.

 

Anybody with experience with Seroquel or advice about alternating sleep meds? Is it what is making me unstable? Is it a good idea or a bad idea? I really want off these meds but can't taper with my symptoms so bad.

 

Thanks.

 

MN

 

P.S. Oh gosh, just realized I probably posted this in the wrong place. Would a mod please move it?

[purcy51]

Hi MNgal,

I've been on Seroquel for @8 months. So, I'm sort of in the same boat in that have habituated to it. I'm probably going to start tapering it soon. I read somewhere on here, via a link, that antipsychotics like seroquel are something like 75% antihistamine in their chemical makeup, and that is the part that's helps with sleep- antihistamines generally make people drowsy. Forgive me if this sounds silly, however we use this where I work ( I work in a hospital), have you ever tried benadryl (it too is an antihistamine) to help you sleep? It doesn't work for everyone, and there is sometimes a hangover the next day, but I've seen it work wonders on extremely anxious patients in the cath lab for a sedative effect. I use it from time to time myself, and find that 25mg usually does the trick. Check into it first..it may not be recommended by the mods here. Perhaps they can shed some light on it?

[MNgal1960]

Hi. When you say you've habituated, does that mean it doesn't work any more? Or do you mean you're hooked on it? Like you have to have it or you will have withdrawals? Thank you.

 

No, I haven't tried Benadryl (except for allergies), but if it's weaker than Seroquel, then it won't help me. :/

 

BTW, I asked 3 pharmacists who all told me Seroquel was not an antihistamine. Huh??

 

MN

[purcy51]

Just did a quick internet search and found this at netwellness.org :

"At very low doses (25-100 mg), quetiapine acts primarily as a histamine receptor blocker (antihistamine) and alpha-adrenergic blocker. Antihistamines, like some allergy medicines, are known to have sedative effects.

 

When the dose is increased (>100 mg), quetiapine binds strongly to serotonin receptors, and at high doses it starts blocking a high number of dopamine receptors. It's at the higher doses where the antipsychotic effects are seen."

 

There's other sites that back this up. As far as being habituated too it, I'm afraid I've grown accustomed to having it on board. It helps me sleep REALLY well. Afraid that when I start tapering I'll start up with the insomnia again. I spoke in my introduction today about feeling fatigued and wouldn't be surprised if it is b/c the so-called "braking action" of seroquel is having more of an effect as I've lowered my dose of Cymbalta, and am completely off Viibryd. AD's have an effect of "activating" and since I have less of the activating effect, the seroquel has been braking more. Make sense? There's a post here about what to do when you have multiple meds on board and which to taper first. The post is "taking multiple psych drugs, which to taper first?". It explains this idea in better detail.

 

My point from my original post to you was, that if it is indeed true that at lower doses seroquel acts as an H1 receptor blocker, I wouldn't be surprised if something like benadryl would help you, without the risk of habituation/addiction/dependency. I would be very skeptical of taking seroquel just for the sedative effect. It can be very difficult drug from which to withdraw. Plus, there are many adverse side effects from Seroquel- especially hypercholesterolemia and liver damage, not to mention the possibility of tardive dyskenisia. I'll find out soon enough as that will be my next drug to start tapering. Will let you know how it goes.

 

Hope this was helpful!

[purcy51]

Here's more about Seroquel/quetiapine from this site :

 

http://survivingantidepressants.org/index.php?/topic/11125-anderson-2014-quetiapine-for-insomnia-a-review-of-the-literature/

[MNgal1960]

Thanks so much. I think it's too late for me. I think I'm already hooked on Seroquel. I am having some symptoms that look like Seroquel withdrawal when I skip a dose. My fear is the sedative effects will wear off. I need it for that while I taper the Valium. And then while I go to trauma therapy. The insomnia started with night panics over and over until I could not sleep at all no matter how tired. Fall asleep-jolt awake-fall asleep-jolt awake. Benadryl won't touch it. OTC antihistamines didn't do much for me before the trauma. Also have lots of pain. A pharmacist said that Seroquel also has some anti-anxiety properties, so maybe that's why it works. Believe me, I would not have taken it if I weren't desperate. I hadn't taken a psych med in years and years until this trauma stole my sleep and my previous psych was a pill pusher. I was too tired to think and just did what he said So here I am.

[purcy51]

So many of us are in the same boat re:our psych's being pill pushers. That's how I ended up on seroquel. Wish I knew then what I know now! But, I can't dwell on that, just focus on what's in front of me right now and do what I can to get better. We are programmed in this country, I think, to trust our physicians without question. Please don't beat yourself up over that! Hoping you start feeling better!

[MNgal1960]

Thanks, purcy. Hope you're doing OK. Looks like we both have quite a ways to go. One day at a time (I keep trying to remind myself).

[Altostrata]

What is the odd way you take gabapentin and Seroquel?

 

Magnesium can be quite effective for "restless legs," which is often a nutrient deficiency. Please read the link JanCarol posted for you.

[MNgal1960]

Thank you. I did read JanCarol's link. I already take magnesium citrate (have for ages) and fish oil (when I don't actually eat the salmon).

 

Oh gosh, let me find the post where I explained the odd prescribing of the gabapentin and Seroquel. I'm half brain dead today from lack of sleep.

[MNgal1960]

Found it:

 

New psych knows my sleep is a disaster but is anti-benzo and wants me off. He says to take Seroquel (25mg) nightly so I can sleep while I wean off the Valium.

 

I have been trying to skip nights of Seroquel in hopes of not getting hooked on it or habituate to it. I thought it had a short half life and that would work. Then I found out it has active metabolites so is actually in me much longer than I thought. I think perhaps I am hooked on it to some degree. I have become so unstable I am not able to care for myself without my daughter's help. I wonder if I should just do what the doctor says and take the Seroquel every night. But I am very afraid of habituating to it.  Two doctors and three pharmacists said I will not habituate to it. I find that hard to believe. I'm resisting.

 

But, I am starting to think that the Seroquel is a player in why I am so unstable because I am taking it 2 nights on and 1 night off. (The night I don't take it, I take extra gabapentin so I get some sleep, better than nothing.) But I am an exhausted mess, symptoms all over the place and can't imagine continuing to taper anything until I can get stable.

 

So I'm taking gabapentin prescribed by primary daily around the clock for other illnesses (which is a newer thing) and the 1,500mg of gabapentin the night I skip the Seroquel (per psychiatrist).

 

Before I started taking the gabapentin daily, only occasionally, I seemed to be  in better shape, less sedated, better able to drive and cook and clean. Maybe the combination of the two is a player.

 

Sorry, I'm so exhausted because I tried a slightly lower dose of the "extra" gabapentin last night (1,400 instead of 1,500mg) and no Seroquel and only got 4 hours of sleep (on top of 2-years of sleep deprivation, this just knocks me over). Can putter around but can't do much that requires thinking.

[MNgal1960]

Been doing nothing but wait. Not sure what stable looks like, but I don't think this is it. Not sure about what to do about the Seroquel dosing. See psychiatrist again in two weeks and will have to decide. So tired.

[KarenB]

Sorry you are so tired MNgal.  I'm a little out of my depth on the Seroquel question, but I've asked the other mods and someone should be along soon. 

[Fresh]

Hi MN , how much extra gabapentin do you take on the nights you don't take seroquel?

What dose do you usually take?

 

This isn't an ideal way to use the meds. moving forward. Bouncing around with gabapentin is a disaster.

After the accidental 20% cut last month , then starting to taper , adding extra doses is sabotaging

whatever you're trying to do. You're confusing the brain more , and likely creating withdrawal symptoms.

 

Please consider keeping your gabapentin dose the same for the next 2 months.

Please could you add dates and doses to your signature - using past , recent , current doesn't help

much to understand your journey.

We need to be very clear before making suggestions. It may be that a consistent daily dose of

12.5mg seroquel will serve you better.

 

bw ,

[KarenB]

I did find this in the Tapering Gabapentin page:

 

NOTE There is an interaction between gabapentin and magnesium, see http://www.webmd.com...s/intrtype-drug. Taking magnesium at the same time as gabapentin decreases the absorption of gabapentin. Avoid taking aluminum or magnesium containing products (such as antacids) for 2 hours before your gabapentin.

[AliG]

MN.

 

So I'm taking gabapentin prescribed by primary daily around the clock for other illnesses (which is a newer thing) and the 1,500mg of gabapentin the night I skip the Seroquel (per psychiatrist).

 

Would you be able to expand a little on this?  What doses and times, are you taking Gabapentin during the day ?  Also , what other illnesses, do you have ? Forgive me , if I've missed it , but I couldn't see any reference to any other conditions.

[mammaP]

Hi MN, your Sig is a bit hard to understand so could you simplify it for us? We need a list of what you are currently taking, doses and changes made since starting to taper, with dates if possible. It will make it easier for us to help.

 

I too had a trigger happy psychiatrist who fired drugs at me over many years! I am glad that you came here and decided to taper them now, you have your whole life ahead of you and it can better than you could imagine without drugs.

[JanCarol]

I used to take fish oil, but now I eat salmon several times a week

 

Farmed salmon does not have the Omega 3's that wild caught salmon has - farm salmon is grain fed, so it more Omega 6.

 

Supplementing fish oil is pretty harmless.  I take 6000 ius per day for pain & brain, but even 1000 is better than nothing.

 

MNGal, you wrote:

Not sure if I mentioned I suffered from chronic pain. A few months ago I got a book/CD about mindfulness for chronic pain. It really is how to deal with anxiety that results from pain. I have learned so much from it. There are guided meditations on it. All very short because they are for people who are in pain and are tired already.

 

Oh, please share!!!???  We love this kinda stuff in here.  It may not be for everyone, but if it helps one, it can help others!  Who is this?  What is the name of the book / CD?  Does the CD come with the book?

 

Re: restless legs - my Mom just sent me one of her "pop medical articles" that says lots of people swear by putting a bar of soap between the sheets, at the foot of the bed - or - rubbing the bar over the legs before bed - or even, just, taking a soapy shower before bed.  OK, there's not double-blind placebo study on it - but - how much harm could it do?  Anecdotes prefer lavender scent, but that doesn't seem to be the key piece in the "soap in the bed" trick, so any scent will do.

 

Oh heck, I'm only halfway down the page, but if I don't go now, I won't, so I'll give you what I have and check back later.

 

Good on ya, walking in the "not sunny" day - they say you can get your melatonin adjusted even on a cloudy day.  (that's considered one of the "safer" supplements for sleep)

 

But for now - please consider taking the seroquel every night.  Surrender, and you will be more stable for it.  Best to keep the gabapentin at a stable daily dose. too.  (we say the same to people on *really* addictive drugs, like benzos, so don't feel bad).

 

I promise to look in more detail soon.

[JanCarol]

Hey MN girl - 

 

I'm sorry I don't have more time right now - but I agree with my last paragraph.

 

Please take the same amount of seroquel and gapapentin at the same time each day.  This should help you stabilize your other symptoms.

 

You can taper from there, once you have stabilized.  

 

Seroquel is not "addicting" in the classical sense - though it is sought after as a street drug for "enhancing" other street drugs.  I do know a few people who get carried away with it - but you are on very low, sleepy dose.

 

Remember - less Seroquel is better for sleep.  (paradoxical - it has to do with the order it fills receptor "buckets").  So you can go on 25 mg for a long time before you develop anything like tolerance.

 

I think I took it for 3 years, never did develop any tolerance.  I do miss it.  I still keep it in my bedstand in case I have a desperate night.  Just keeping it there - means I never use it.  Like a security blanket.

[Altostrata]

MNgal, have you changed your benzo dosage?

 

Your psychiatrist may not like benzos but must acknowledge your physiological dependency on them. You cannot go off quickly, not even with Seroquel.

 

If I were you, I'd agree with him that you don't want to be on benzos, but stress you want to minimize the other drugs first and then taper directly off the benzo.

 

When did you start taking Seroquel? It seems it was in March?

 

Adding Seroquel is also going to increase the fatigue. That is your main symptom, correct? If so, and since you've been taking it so inconsistently, I tend to agree with JanCarol, 12.5mg Seroquel regularly might be a good place to go next -- but don't make changes until we sort this out.

 

Please revise your signature -- I need to know which 3 drugs you're on now, and their dosages.

[MNgal1960]

Sorry, I have been having such a rough time have been unable to log on. The neuropathy and depression are overwhelming.

 

I will try to go back and catch up.

 

20mg Seroquel 2 nights and 1,400mg gabapentin 1 night (I think, I'm fuzzy, my daughter sets up my meds)

 

Regular daytime doses of Valium and gabapentin that I take together at the same time. I'm sorry, this is hard and I'm fuzzing out with the numbers. 6AM-2PM-10PM. I don't remember the exact dates I started each. But since a month ago it's been

 

5mg V and 200 G

5mg V and 300 G

5mg V and 300 G

 

At 9PM I take my sleep med, whichever.

 

I hope I got that right. I have tried Q every night and it does not work. By the 3rd night I am waking over and over.  I have tried many other meds and either they don't work or the side effects are intolerable. With no sleep med I get almost no sleep because of night panics waking me over and over. I guess this started about

 

The mindfulneses for pain book I got is on a site called breathworks-midfulness.uk.org. I think it is on amazon under another name. You Are Not Your Pain (?). Yes, I think that's it.

 

I will have to come back and do this more later.  The neuropathy is so terrible.

[MNgal1960]

Actually, I am not at all sure about that gabapentin number. Different caps in different sizes get me mixed up. (Hence my daughter setting up my meds.) It might be 1,100mg.

[MNgal1960]

If I forget, somebody remind me to  update my sig. My daughter can help maybe . But she is not home much.

[MNgal1960]

oops: breathworks-mindfulness.org.uk

Also I think breathworks-mindfulness is on Facebook.

 

Gosh my brain is not working.

[MNgal1960]

Altostrata and other moderators, With help from daughter, I think my signature is now correct or very nearly correct. I am still on the benzos. I agree, I want to minimize the other meds and then get off the Valium.

 

JanCarol, The book with CD is on amazon and is You Are Not Your Pain. Also comes as an audiobook with the guided meditations on there. Love the woman's voice. Yes, I eat wild salmon. I am on a limited budget since my divorce and illness and cannot afford both the real, wild fish and the fish oil.

 

Anybody, does "tolerance" to Seroquel mean it won't work any more? How long can one be on Seroquel before tolerance develops? I am terrified of developing tolerance to it because it is all I have left. Except for the Valium working for awhile, nothing else worked. And I mean nothing. The mega-gabapentin relaxes me but does not give me good sleep. The night panics are so severe. I can fall asleep but am awake again in less than 10 minutes with my heart pounding.

 

I am considering getting stabilized, doing a long hold, and driving to the next county (my daughter would have to drive) to find a trauma therapist who could get to the bottom of the night panics. (I live in the middle of nowhere.) Maybe. I am not even sure what started them.

 

My daughter informs me that this post makes sense and is correct to the best of her knowledge. Should wait for her to post, I guess.

[Altostrata]

Please stop changing the dosage of any of your drugs and keep to the same schedule of taking them each day.

 

Very important: Keep notes on paper about your daily symptom pattern and when you take your drugs and their dosages.

 

Your inconsistent dosing is confusing things quite a lot.

 

Do you sleep when you take 25mg Seroquel?

[brassmonkey]

Yes, tolerance means that you body no longer responds to the amount of a drug that you are taking.  It does not mean that you can stop taking it.  Some times taking a larger dose will help for a short while, but your body will soon react in the same manner.  The only real way out of it is to fight through the WD symptoms and taper.

 

A trauma therapist isn't going to be able to do much for the night panic.  It is a very common symptom of these drugs and will clear up in it's own time as the drug is tapered.