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MNgal1960: need to get off of 3 meds


MNgal1960

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Thank you, Alostra, my new doctor (a primary, psychiatrist left abruptly and there isn't another who will take Medicaid) told me to make no changes and see her at the end of the month.

 

I actually had been trimming the Q crumb by crumb many months ago to get it down to 20mg. So that is not a recent change. The signature wouldn't let me add any more lines to explain that. I had hoped it would make me feel less awful the next morning if I could get the dose lower. Not really, but at least the dose is a tad lower.

 

I do keep a pile of note cards on the kitchen counter to record my doses to make sure I'm not messing them up. If I have unusual symptoms, I add those, too. Very annoying thing is I had horrible neuropathy in the past from the nerve disorder. But it had been in remission (just a nuisance) for a long time, up until my Valium screw up. I don't know if this neuropathy is caused my the meds or the disease relapsing. I guess I will only know when I am off the meds. 

 

I sleep adequately on the Seroquel. Not like I used to, but adequately.

 

Brassmonkey, the night panics started when I was not taking a single psych med and hadn't for years. But I had experienced a trauma and then several years of extreme stress and was just gutting it out when suddenly my brain decided it wouldn't sleep. I tried natural sleep aids, prescription sleep meds, anything my primary doc was willing to try. Nothing worked. Then I got a new doctor (psych) and got put on the Valium. I even asked a sleep nurse practitioner if it was OK to take V as a sleep med and he said sure, no problem. So I took it and got my first decent night of sleep in 6 months. Sadly, that did not last and I did not know I had only made matters worse. Of course, I had already lost 20 pounds and the ability to function when I took the V, so I guess maybe that was better than getting locked up where they probably would have drugged me even worse. I just wish I had found out about tolerance and all that stuff and started my journey off the right way. I would be so much further along. I don't see a light at the end of this tunnel. :(

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  • Administrator

Okay, stick to 20mg Seroquel at the same time each day.

 

What is the daily pattern of the symptoms that bother you the most? Do you tend to feel dopey during the day? Are they any times when the symptoms are less intense?

 

Please keep notes about when the symptoms occur and your drug dosing.

This is not medical advice. Discuss any decisions about your medical care with a knowledgeable medical practitioner.

"It has become appallingly obvious that our technology has surpassed our humanity." -- Albert Einstein

All postings © copyrighted.

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So you're saying I should take the Seroquel at 9PM every day and not alternate it with the mega-gabapentin? I am not going to become tolerant to it? This new doctor did say that was a possibility so I think she would write the scripts that way. Of course, she also said I could stay on the Valium forever, too. And I know that's wrong. Even a lot of mainstream psychiatrists have caught on to the fact that that is wrong.

 

I can say already that my brain is full of mud every morning, all morning. The Seroquel hangover is just awful.

 

I will keep taking notes and look for a pattern for other symptoms.

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  • Moderator Emeritus

"I actually had been trimming the Q crumb by crumb many months ago to get it down to 20mg"

 

Is Q seroquel? If you were chipping bits off , your dose has been bouncing around for all these months.

You will need to measure 20mg precisely , not just guess.

 

Please see the threads on using digital scales to measure doses.

 

Yes , our recommendation is to take the same dose of seroquel every night. NO extra gabapentin ever.

1987-1997 pertofran , prothiaden , Prozac 1997-2002 Zoloft 2002-2004 effexor 2004-2010 Lexapro 40mg

2010-2012Cymbalta 120mg

Sept. 2012 -decreased 90mg in 6months. Care taken over by Dr Lucire in March 2013 , decreased last 30mg at 2mg per week over 3 months. July 21 , 2013- last dose of Cymbalta

Protracted withdrawal syndrome kicked in badly Jan.2014 Unrelenting akathisia until May 2014. Voluntary hosp. admission. Cocktail of Seroquel, Ativan and mirtazapine and I was well enough to go home after 14 days. Stopped all hosp. meds in next few months.

July 2014 felt v.depressed - couldn't stop crying. Started pristiq 50mg. Felt improvement within days and continued to improve, so stayed on 50mg for 8 months.

Began taper 28 Feb. 2015. Pristiq 50mg down to 45mg. Had one month of w/d symptoms. Started CES therapy in March. No w/d symptoms down to 30mg.

October 2015 , taking 25mg Pristiq. Capsules compounded with slow-release additive.

March 2016 , 21mg

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"I actually had been trimming the Q crumb by crumb many months ago to get it down to 20mg"

 

Is Q seroquel? If you were chipping bits off , your dose has been bouncing around for all these months.

You will need to measure 20mg precisely , not just guess.

 

Please see the threads on using digital scales to measure doses.

 

Yes , our recommendation is to take the same dose of seroquel every night. NO extra gabapentin ever.

Yes, the Q is short for quetiapine (Seroquel). I started with trimming using the markings on the pill as a guide. Then I realized I was bad at trimming that way (front of tablet looked good but back looked a mess) so then did get a digital scale. So the 20mg (.08 of the tablet) is as close as I can get with the scale. Trimming that tablet is one of my least favorite tasks. Eyes get older and focus gets harder.

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  • Administrator

When you say you feel "awful," what exactly do you mean? What is your daily symptom pattern?

 

Taking the drugs inconsistently may be contributing to your feeling of "awfulness."

 

You're going to have to choose between the Seroquel hangover or taking a lower amount of Seroquel. How many days did you try 15mg Seroquel?

 

You're already dependent on gabapentin and Valium, why are you so worried about Seroquel "tolerance"?

This is not medical advice. Discuss any decisions about your medical care with a knowledgeable medical practitioner.

"It has become appallingly obvious that our technology has surpassed our humanity." -- Albert Einstein

All postings © copyrighted.

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I'm worried that the Seroquel will stop working as a sleep aid. I never got below 20mg. Well, I never got below 20mg that I know of. Before I got the scale, who knows!

 

"Awful" Seroquel hangover feels like brain is full of mud, moving in slow motion and pushing painfully against the mud, anxiety over not being able to figure out what I'm supposed to be doing. Then (and this is more recent) my brain remembers that recently my son up and moved out and now barely speaks to me. (He was simmering below the surface for along time and benzo-brain me didn't see it until he exploded.) So the grief hits me new and raw. Can't do my mindfulness or CBT or any coping skills because brain just can't focus and is all over the place. I even forget to eat if my daughter isn't here to remind me. Half my day is gone before I'm awake. And if I'm unfortunate enough to get a neuropathy flare in the middle of this, I am totally freaked out.

 

On the other hand, try going months with 0-3 hours of broken sleep per night. That's much, much worse. That is what I am terrified of (when I let myself think it, usually I don't).

 

If I knew the Seroquel wasn't going to fizzle out like everything else I tried, I would be willing to put up with the hangover while I got through the V taper. But after experiencing everything else either not work or fizzle out quickly, I'm scared to take the same thing every night for fear it will fizzle out, too. :unsure: 

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  • Moderator Emeritus

I know it's a hard choice MNgal, but the general feeling is that you'd be better off getting stable on a regular dose (which then you can later slowly taper) than putting up with the results of skipping doses.  It's just so hard on your brain.

 

I'm so sorry you've been placed in this position - one more thing the drug companies have to answer for.

2010  Fluoxetine 20mg.  2011  Escitalopram 20mg.  2013 Tapered badly and destabilised CNS.  Effexor 150mg. 

2015 Begin using info at SurvivingAntidepressants.  Cut 10% - bad w/d 2 months, held 1 month. 

Micro-tapering: four weekly 0.4% cuts, hold 4 weeks (struggling with symptoms).

8 month hold.

2017 Micro-tapering: four weekly 1% cuts, hold 4 weeks (symptoms almost non-existent).

2020 Still micro-tapering. Just over 2/3 of the way off effexor. Minimal symptoms, - and sleeping well.
Supplements: Fish oil, vitamin C, iron, oat-straw tea, nettle tea.

2023 Now on 7 micro-beads of Effexor. Minimal symptoms but much more time needed between drops.

 'The possibility of renewal exists so long as life exists.'  Dr Gabor Mate.

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  • Administrator

I don't know if you'll become tolerant to regular Seroquel. But taking it inconsistently is muddying your entire situation, we can't make head or tail of it until there's consistency.

 

Side effects are usually related to dosage. When you lower the dosage, the side effects are lessened. Reducing Seroquel probably would reduce the hangover, which sounds like it interferes with your daily activities.

 

It also sounds like you need to deal with the guilt or anger or sorrow related to your relationship with your son. Can you find a counselor?

 

I'm still not clear about your daily drug schedule. What time of day do you take each drug? Could you please post it as a simple list? (Not in your signature.)

 

When did poor sleep start to become a problem?

This is not medical advice. Discuss any decisions about your medical care with a knowledgeable medical practitioner.

"It has become appallingly obvious that our technology has surpassed our humanity." -- Albert Einstein

All postings © copyrighted.

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Thank you Fresh, Alostra, Karen.

 

Here's my schedule.

 

6AM 5mg V and 200mg G (This was my first cut, originally 300mg until a month ago.)

2PM 5mg V and 300mg G

9PM sleep med of either 20mg Q or 1,100mg G (2 days Q, 1 day G, alternating)

10 PM 5mg V and 300mg G (Doctor wants 600mg G here, but I don't.)

 

Then I sit around and wait another hour to get tired enough to go to bed. I wake early, around 4 or 5AM and may or may not fall back asleep (depending on if I'm having cortisol surges), but I don't get out of bed until my alarm at 6AM. I can't really function until at least 11AM, so I just putter around the house slowly. Pushing myself in the morning, especially after Q, causes huge spikes of anxiety.

 

I am usually very close to sticking to this schedule.

 

Might try tapering down my 2PM G to 200mg next.

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  • Moderator Emeritus

How are you doing now NMgal? Are you still taking the seroquel on alternate nights? Thanks for writing out your schedule.

 

If you are going follow our advice and start taking the seroquel consistently, it might be a good idea to give yourself some time to stabilize with the new schedule before doing any more tapering.

 

Make one change at a time and monitor your symptoms, keeping notes on paper is best. If you let us know what's going on, we are better able to make suggestions.

I'm not a doctor.  My comments are not medical advise. These are my opinions based on my own experience and what I've learned. Please discuss your situation with a medical practitioner who has knowledge of tapering and withdrawal...if you are lucky enough to find one.

My Introduction Thread

Full Drug and Withdrawal History

Brief Summary

Several SSRIs for 13 years starting 1997 (for mild to moderate partly situational anxiety) Xanax PRN ~ Various other drugs over the years for side effects

2 month 'taper' off Lexapro 2010

Short acute withdrawal, followed by 2 -3 months of improvement then delayed protracted withdrawal

DX ADHD followed by several years of stimulants and other drugs trying to manage increasing symptoms

Failed reinstatement of Lexapro and trial of Prozac (became suicidal)

May 2013 Found SA, learned about withdrawal, stopped taking drugs...healing begins.

Protracted withdrawal, with a very sensitized nervous system, slowly recovering as time passes

Supplements which have helped: Vitamin C, Magnesium, Taurine

Bad reactions: Many supplements but mostly fish oil and Vitamin D

June 2016 - Started daily juicing, mostly vegetables and lots of greens.

Aug 2016 - Oct 2016 Best window ever, felt almost completely recovered

Oct 2016 -Symptoms returned - bad days and less bad days.

April 2018 - No windows, but significant improvement, it feels like permanent full recovery is close.

VIDEO: Where did the chemical imbalance theory come from?



VIDEO: How are psychiatric diagnoses made?



VIDEO: Why do psychiatric drugs have withdrawal syndromes?



VIDEO: Can psychiatric drugs cause long-lasting negative effects?

VIDEO: Dr. Claire Weekes

 

 

 

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I saw my new doctor and she said to take the Seroquel every night, so I started that last ewek. I feel awful all morning. I can't remember things. And I think the sleep effects are wearing off already. I slept terribly last night. I can't think straight. I feel like my brain is coming apart from lack of sleep. I don't know what to do. :(

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Sleep still worse. Neuropathy worse. The pain is driving me crazy. Literally. I don't know how to cope with pain and little sleep at the same time. I haven't made any med changes in weeks and don't understand why this is getting so much worse.

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  • Moderator Emeritus

Hi MNgal1960,

 

I'm sorry you are feeling so awful.  It can be wearing.  I have a question about the Seroquel.  When you went to taking it every night as the doctor suggested, did you keep the dosage the same?  Because, at every other night, if it was 25 mg, that would average out to 12.5 mg/day, and if you started taking 25 mg every night, you essentially doubled the dose.  Can you describe your symptoms before this change to your symptoms now?

 

SG

Started ADs back around 1995 after bad break-up, starting with Prozac.  Switched to Wellbutrin, and then to Effexor in 2002
Effexor XR 2002-2014 up to 225 mg at one point, down to 37.5 mg towards end but back up to 75 mg in 2014; now realize I had W/D as I dropped down, memory very poor about history.  Extreme emotions, poor concentration as I stepped back down, didn't connect the dots!
Summer 2014 reduced to 0 very quickly, was sick of anhedonia/sexual dysfunction due to meds, depression never controlled if not worse. Didn't recognize WD since symptoms built slowly (thought I had ADD! and menopausal on top of it), starting with severe sweats, very bad cog-fog and memory issues, culminating in weight loss, severe anxiety and depression, panic, severe apathy and insomnia by eight months off.  Saw p-doc who put me on Remeron, increased from 7.5 mg/day to 37.5 mg by May 22, 2015; still doing very badly though able to sleep.

June 1. 2015 Reinstated Effexor XR 37.5 mg, Remeron dropped to 30 mg PM. Immediate relief of symptoms, like nothing had ever happened!  Joined SA and began on advice of friend who recognized it was WD all along! Began tapering in July 2015.

Been tapering both meds ever since, focusing on one more than the other or doing no more than 5% of each per month.

12 mg Effexor and 5.8 mg Remeron (mirtazapine SolTabs to make a solution with OraPlus) as of 5/4/2017 

Update 3/14/18: 2.9 mg Remeron and 6 mg Effexor; 6/10/18:  2.6 mg Remeron and 4.9 mg Effexor

 

My intro: http://survivingantidepressants.org/index.php?/topic/9313-squirrellygirl-effexor-withdrawal-etc/page-2#entry196679

This is not medical advice. Discuss any decisions about your medical care with a knowledgeable medical practitioner.

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  • Administrator

Thank you, SG. Yes, MNgal, please tell us if there has been a change in your symptom pattern.

 

As we've said before, you need to get your dosing consistent. Please stop adding random amounts of gabapentin. Please take all drugs on the same schedule every day.

 

Once you get this sorted, I suspect you need to take a lower dose of Seroquel. With all the other "brakes" (Seroquel, Valium, gabapentin) you have onboard, the Seroquel could be going paradoxical on the third day because of a bloodstream buildup. (Drugs take about 4 days to get to full blood level.)

 

The other drugs could also be contributing to paradoxical waking. However, we can't tell a thing because your dosing has been so inconsistent.

This is not medical advice. Discuss any decisions about your medical care with a knowledgeable medical practitioner.

"It has become appallingly obvious that our technology has surpassed our humanity." -- Albert Einstein

All postings © copyrighted.

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  • 2 weeks later...

SG, yes, I kept the dosage the same but started taking it every night ( I was going 2 nights on, 1 night off). I had read that Seroquel had a short half life so I didn't think it was building up in my system, but I guess it was.

 

I should probably add that I have had severe neuropathy in the past, before I was on any of these meds due to an autoimmune disorder. My doctor and I think I may have Celiac and I have eliminated all gluten from the house, I'm that sensitive. It's possible that I somehow ingested gluten and that made my neuropathy so much worse. It is so tricky to know whether this was from my failed Valium taper or gluten exposure or both.

 

Also, I want to repeat that the wakings caused by anxiety jolts started before I ever took a sleep medication. I was on nothing and had been on nothing for years when they started. No matter how tired I am, if I fall asleep without a pretty high dose of a sedating med in me, I will be jolted awake within minutes.

 

I have been trying to be as even as I possibly can be every day now since I posted last. I take the same thing every day at the same time. My fatigue has been a bit less and my neuropathy has been a bit less over the past few weeks as I have been holding and taking my doses evenly. I think the general pattern (though it is up and down) is one of improvement.

 

I would like to cut down on the Seroquel. I weighed a few tablets and they all seem to be very close to .100 on my milligram scale. Would it be reasonable to cut .001 each week to try to reduce the Seroquel? I would like to get down to .080 or .070. (I hope I have those decimal points in right place. I have some cog fog so my daughter helps me with this sort of thing.)

 

My primary thinks it's OK to take more Seroquel and has the idea that it will reduce my hangover if I do. My pharmacist said not true and she wishes I could get lower on the Q or find a different med entirely because she's concerned about the potential for severe side effects from Q even at low doses. She suggested Remeron, but, honestly, I don't want to throw another med into the mix. I want to see how low I can get on the Seroquel and still sleep 6 hours.

 

Please tell me if cutting .001 more off the tablet each week is reasonable. I would really like to cut down on the brain-full-of-mud-and-high-anxiety in the morning. I can't really do much but putter around before noon.

 

Thank you.

 

MN

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  • Mentor

Hi MnGal1960, I  just read all your thread.      WELCOME!              

 

Dont assume that a higher dose of seroquel will make you sleep more,   seroquel doesnt always work like that.     These pills dont always work how we assume they do.  

 

Dont stress about the seroquel, and YES it needs to be taken same time each day,   DONT SKIP DOSES.              Take same thing, same times every day.  

 

It is good you are feeling a little better.  

 

Are you sleeping OK now?  Yes the morning hangover I know is a horrible battle, but one thing sorted at a time.

 

All of these drugs are psych drugs, whether pain meds, or antidepressants, or anti epileptics, antipsychotics, or sleep meds. At the moment with 3 drugs, it is impossible to say what drug is causing what.               

 

I am assuming that sleep is the number one priority, sleeping at night.  That was my biggest fear,  also.  You have a daughter to help, that is wonderful.  I still have one son at home, and he helps me.  Just get through the days, bit by bit.  

 

If you are sleeping, and the seroquel at the dose you are taking is working with that, perhaps the first reductions shouldnt be the seroquel.  It seems to me you have been changing doses of that up and down, all over the place, taking only 2 days out of 3,   I think that needs just to balance for a while.             Are you taking 20mg seroquel now?                                        

1992 Dothiepin 375mg 8 weeks, exhaustion/depression.  Serotonin syndrome, oh yes!  seizures . Fell pregnant, 3rd baby, Nitrous Oxide, 3 weeks mental hospital pp psychosis. zoloft tegretol.

Feb 1996 ct tegretol, tapered Zoloft 8 weeks. as (unexpectedly)  pregnant. Steven died after 3 days.(Zolft HLHS baby).  98 had run in with Paxil, 2 tablets, 3 weeks taper, survived.
2005..menopause? exhausted again. Zyprexa, mad in three days, fallout....  Seroquel, Effexor, tegretol,   and 8 years of self destruction. Failed taper.
Damn 1/4 valium... nuts again! .fallout, zoloft 100mg  seroquol 400mg mirtazapine 45 mg  tegretol 400mg.  Mid 14 3 month taper. Nov 14 CRASH.
Mid 15 ....   75mg  seroquel,  3 x 1800mg SJW  2 week window end of December followed by 6 week wave
5/2 68mg seroquel, 2.5 x 1800mg SJW::::20/2 61mg seroquel, 2.5 x  SJW::: 26/2 54mg seroquel, 2 x SJW::::21/3 43mg seroquel, 1 x 2700SJW :::: 23/4 36mg seroquel 1 x 1800 SJW
15/5 33mg seroquel, 1 x SJW::::   28/5 30mg seroquel, 1 x SJW::::;  18/6 25mg seroquel 1/2 SJW::::, 11/7 21mg seroquel 1/2 SJW::, 26/7 18mg seroquel 1/2 SJW:::, 9/8 12mg seroquel :::, 16/8 6mg seroquel ;;;;, 12/9 0 jump.

23/9  3mg.....,  27/9 0mg.  Reinstated, 6mg, then 12mg.............  LIGHTBULB MOMENT,  I have  MTHFR 2x mutations.  CFS and issues with MOULD in my home. So I left home, and working 150km away during week, loving it.

Oh was hard, panic attacks first week, gone now, along with the mould issues.

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  • Administrator

Please get your dosing of all your drugs stable before making any drug changes.

 

How long has it been since you have made NO drug changes?

This is not medical advice. Discuss any decisions about your medical care with a knowledgeable medical practitioner.

"It has become appallingly obvious that our technology has surpassed our humanity." -- Albert Einstein

All postings © copyrighted.

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Hi ang, Alto. It has been a month that I have been holding steady at exactly the same dose of everything every day. The Valium much longer than that. Wish I had kept better written records back then like I am now.

 

It was my doctor's suggestion that if I upped my Seroquel it would make the morning hangover less, which made no sense to me at all. She encouraged me to try. I did not. I have just held steady. Unortunately I see her again this week and am not sure what I am going to say to her. Admit I didn't do what she said and risk her getting mad and then wanting to rapid taper me? She doesn't like it when I'm not compliant. I guess I could just say I tried it and it didn't help. In fact, quite some time ago, when I had my previous doctor, he told me to try 50mg of Q once and it improved my sleep about 10% and made my hangover twice as bad, so he just shrugged and said then forget it. Maybe I'll just tell her I did that. This doctor game is such a nuisance. My previous doctor was so much more open minded. This new one is so rigid.

 

Darn nerve pain is back again after low pain for a few days (spoiled). Don't know if it's my autoimmune thing flaring up or caused by the med changes. And, sadly, I will probably never know until I am off of these meds entirely. Which seems to be maybe at the turn of the next century. :(

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  • Administrator

This is not medical advice. Discuss any decisions about your medical care with a knowledgeable medical practitioner.

"It has become appallingly obvious that our technology has surpassed our humanity." -- Albert Einstein

All postings © copyrighted.

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Thanks for the links, Alostra.

 

I live in a rural area and am on Medicaid, so not a lot of options for doctors. She's actually a nice person, but just has that God complex that it seems they teach in medical school. ;) I would like to see a psychiatrist but there isn't one in the whole state who will see me unless I switch medical groups, wait for an intake with a primary, get a psych referral, and then get on a waiting list to see a psychiatrist (about 6 months around here). I'm lucky to have found a primary who would prescribe psych meds or it would have been inpatient c/t for me. :unsure: Makes me ill to think about it. So, I need to figure out how to keep this doctor happy while I do my slow-motion taper.

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  • Moderator Emeritus

One way is to tell your doctor you are happy hanging out on the dosages you are on, and then do what you need to do with the support here.  At med checks, say all's well (even if you have symptoms).  Making complaints about how you feel triggers doctors, including p-docs, to up dosages and/or prescribe new meds.  Use your doc to get what you need.  The only problem is when people want to switch to a liquid to make tapering easier.  In that situation you have to fess up about what you are up to and run the risk of interference.  Better to make your own liquid if it is possible to do so, in that case.

 

SG

Started ADs back around 1995 after bad break-up, starting with Prozac.  Switched to Wellbutrin, and then to Effexor in 2002
Effexor XR 2002-2014 up to 225 mg at one point, down to 37.5 mg towards end but back up to 75 mg in 2014; now realize I had W/D as I dropped down, memory very poor about history.  Extreme emotions, poor concentration as I stepped back down, didn't connect the dots!
Summer 2014 reduced to 0 very quickly, was sick of anhedonia/sexual dysfunction due to meds, depression never controlled if not worse. Didn't recognize WD since symptoms built slowly (thought I had ADD! and menopausal on top of it), starting with severe sweats, very bad cog-fog and memory issues, culminating in weight loss, severe anxiety and depression, panic, severe apathy and insomnia by eight months off.  Saw p-doc who put me on Remeron, increased from 7.5 mg/day to 37.5 mg by May 22, 2015; still doing very badly though able to sleep.

June 1. 2015 Reinstated Effexor XR 37.5 mg, Remeron dropped to 30 mg PM. Immediate relief of symptoms, like nothing had ever happened!  Joined SA and began on advice of friend who recognized it was WD all along! Began tapering in July 2015.

Been tapering both meds ever since, focusing on one more than the other or doing no more than 5% of each per month.

12 mg Effexor and 5.8 mg Remeron (mirtazapine SolTabs to make a solution with OraPlus) as of 5/4/2017 

Update 3/14/18: 2.9 mg Remeron and 6 mg Effexor; 6/10/18:  2.6 mg Remeron and 4.9 mg Effexor

 

My intro: http://survivingantidepressants.org/index.php?/topic/9313-squirrellygirl-effexor-withdrawal-etc/page-2#entry196679

This is not medical advice. Discuss any decisions about your medical care with a knowledgeable medical practitioner.

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SGirl, Very good advice. Unless you have a wonderful doctor, don't expect too much, right? That's my problem. I keep expecting medical people to be reasonable! They're supposed to be so smart, but it is wrong to think they are reasonable. I was spoiled by my psychiatrist during the year he was with the practice. He was really an outside-the-box thinker and I could be honest with him. Last thing he said to me was, "Don't give up and get off all these drugs." Makes me sad to think of that now because I feel so alone.

 

As is typical, nobody wants to stay around here (northern nowhere) long and they move on to bigger and better things. I lost an intelligent, supportive friend that way. She is an MD and also an outside-the-box thinker. I met her through a support group and we found we had quite a bit in common. Really enjoyed having intelligent conversations with someone. (That was before my V crash. Not so good at intelligent conversations any more. :( ) No sooner did I get to know her than she got a better job offer in Boston and off she and her family went. She said she felt very out of place here and only came here because the job allowed her to work around her kids' schedules (she has 3 young children) and didn't require her to publish (waste of time for a young, working mom but required by big, academic hospitals, which we do not have here). But her boss was a pain in the behind, and she got sick of the politics  and the backwards-ness at the hospital so off to Boston she went.

 

And here I still am. But I should be counting my blessings because at least this new prescriber seems content with the status quo so far and is not trying to rapid taper me, as so many other prescribers and therapists have suggested. And when I feel more stable, I can start my taper and not tell her. I live with my daughter now, and she is very confident that she can liquefy my med for me when I am in a cog fog. She's young, healthy, and smart but a bit ADHD, so I hope she's right! :unsure:

 

MN

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  • Moderator Emeritus

I'm glad you have your daughter to help!  When it is time to taper again, we'll get you all set (and her) on how to do it.  You aren't alone - this community has been a life saver for many!  I live in a rural community and am not connected at all to the outside world here, but SA fills the void and I don't feel alone :-)

 

SG

Started ADs back around 1995 after bad break-up, starting with Prozac.  Switched to Wellbutrin, and then to Effexor in 2002
Effexor XR 2002-2014 up to 225 mg at one point, down to 37.5 mg towards end but back up to 75 mg in 2014; now realize I had W/D as I dropped down, memory very poor about history.  Extreme emotions, poor concentration as I stepped back down, didn't connect the dots!
Summer 2014 reduced to 0 very quickly, was sick of anhedonia/sexual dysfunction due to meds, depression never controlled if not worse. Didn't recognize WD since symptoms built slowly (thought I had ADD! and menopausal on top of it), starting with severe sweats, very bad cog-fog and memory issues, culminating in weight loss, severe anxiety and depression, panic, severe apathy and insomnia by eight months off.  Saw p-doc who put me on Remeron, increased from 7.5 mg/day to 37.5 mg by May 22, 2015; still doing very badly though able to sleep.

June 1. 2015 Reinstated Effexor XR 37.5 mg, Remeron dropped to 30 mg PM. Immediate relief of symptoms, like nothing had ever happened!  Joined SA and began on advice of friend who recognized it was WD all along! Began tapering in July 2015.

Been tapering both meds ever since, focusing on one more than the other or doing no more than 5% of each per month.

12 mg Effexor and 5.8 mg Remeron (mirtazapine SolTabs to make a solution with OraPlus) as of 5/4/2017 

Update 3/14/18: 2.9 mg Remeron and 6 mg Effexor; 6/10/18:  2.6 mg Remeron and 4.9 mg Effexor

 

My intro: http://survivingantidepressants.org/index.php?/topic/9313-squirrellygirl-effexor-withdrawal-etc/page-2#entry196679

This is not medical advice. Discuss any decisions about your medical care with a knowledgeable medical practitioner.

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Thanks, SGirl. I think you know just what I mean about being disconnected. And what a godsend the internet is!

 

Even though we are far from the big city area, we do have a small university about half an hour from here that my daughter attends and, IMHO, it is pathetic. The standards are so low I swear she went in with better writing skills than she has now. We moved up here from just outside a more urban area just as she was finishing high school. I told her the other day that I thought her high school had higher standards than this college. She said, "Sure, and once I figured out I could get away with it, I didn't bother to try any more." Ugh! And her grades are still just fine! On the other hand, my son, who is very bright but has learning disabilities, is finding the dumbed-down academic scene here just right for him. You win some, you lose some. :unsure:

 

BTW, my doctor refilled my scripts this afternoon, so I'm good for another month of holding. I'm thinking that's the best course, even though I'm very impatient to get going.

 

MN

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  • Moderator Emeritus

Hey MNGal - How you going?

 

You wrote:

My primary thinks it's OK to take more Seroquel and has the idea that it will reduce my hangover if I do. My pharmacist said not true and she wishes I could get lower on the Q or find a different med entirely because she's concerned about the potential for severe side effects from Q even at low doses. She suggested Remeron, but, honestly, I don't want to throw another med into the mix. I want to see how low I can get on the Seroquel and still sleep 6 hours.

 

Actually, if you took over 100 mg of Seroquel, it would start to trickle into the dopamine receptors and might not be so sleepy-making (I think this is what your doctor is thinking - but - it's not a straight line).  HOWEVER, I don't think you want to add any new receptors to your "mix," and your choice to refuse Remeron is a good plan.

 

There is an excellent article on Seroquel you might share with your doctor - just to let him/her know that you are compliant, and you are also learning:

The Most Important Article On Psychiatry (Seroquel)  (this is part 1 of a 3 part series - and may be hard to read - but may help your doctor understand better why increasing dose may not have the effects s/he is looking for).  

 

OR - your doctor will get mad for you being an internet smarty pants, so maybe Squirrelly's advice to just say "I'm fine, thanks" and get your script.

 

Gia had a lot of physical pain - she was polydrugged too (her website is http://www.beyondmeds.com and it is chockers full of great stories, advice, and uplifting information and endless links to even more information) - 

 

she posted here on SA about dealing with pain, and I thought it might help you too.  Something to think about while you are holding:

Non-Drug Techniques for Dealing wth Physical Pain

 

I hope you see the Sun today!

"Easy, easy - just go easy and you'll finish." - Hawaiian Kapuna

 

Holding is hard work, holding is a blessing. Give your brain time to heal before you try again.

 

My suggestions are not medical advice, you are in charge of your own medical choices.

 

A lifetime of being prescribed antidepressants that caused problems (30 years in total). At age 35 flipped to "bipolar," but was not diagnosed for 5 years. Started my journey in Midwest United States. Crossed the Pacific for love and hope; currently living in Australia.   CT Seroquel 25 mg some time in 2013.   Tapered Reboxetine 4 mg Oct 2013 to Sept 2014 = GONE (3 years on Reboxetine).     Tapered Lithium 900 to 475 MG (alternating with the SNRI) Jan 2014 - Nov 2014, tapered Lithium 475 mg Jan 2015 -  Feb 2016 = GONE (10 years  on Lithium).  Many mistakes in dry cutting dosages were made.


The tedious thread (my intro):  JanCarol ☼ Reboxetine first, then Lithium

The happy thread (my success story):  JanCarol - Undiagnosed  Off all bipolar drugs

My own blog:  https://shamanexplorations.com/shamans-blog/

 

 

I have been psych drug FREE since 1 Feb 2016!

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Hi SillyCat, I mean JanCarol. :)  I have noticed my symptoms have improved since I started holding at level doses of everything. Just updated my signature to show that. Am going to hold another month and hope for more improvement. My sleep could be better, though. I hope the Seroquel is NOT wearing off now that I'm taking it every night. :unsure:

 

I think my doctor would not be happy to have me using the internet to educate myself. She says she is the doctor and I should stay away from Dr. Google. Kind of irritating, as though I can't tell the difference between a reliable source of information and somebody randomly rambling online.

 

Thanks for all those helpful links. Will be something to keep me busy today. Long holiday weekend here so my limited remaining friends are all out and about. Perhaps I will clean my basement. It's cool and quiet down there. (Unusually hot and muggy for May here.) Probably going to have to move into an apartment sometime soon (rent here too expensive and last kid about to move out), so I may as well start getting rid of things. Since I'm in slow motion, that should keep me occupied all weekend!

 

MN

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Hi and thanks, deep! Nothing new to report. Still holding and coping with random flares of neuropathy and anxiety. Think they're not as bad as they used to be.

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Feeling like I want to start cutting the Seroquel. Would like to get lower on it before I start on the benzo. Two questions:

 

If I want to make one small cut every two weeks, what would be a good amount to cut off of the 20mg? I have a milligram scale and plan to dry cut.

 

How long after a cut would a person notice adverse effects? Days? Weeks?

 

Thank you.

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  • Moderator Emeritus

First you need to weigh the actual pill, because it isn't 20 mg.  Weigh several and take the average, since there could be slight variation between them.

 

If you truly feel ready and want to do every two weeks, then it would be best to do no more than 1 mg active ingredient per two weeks.  So, for the next month, it would be 

 

starting dose 20 mg  (10% cut would be to 18 mg per month, so....

1st cut 19 mg

2nd cut 18 mg

From 18, next 10% would be 16.2 mg per month, so...

17.1 mg

16.2 mg

And so on

 

Instead of those numbers, use your pill weight as your starting number to calculate from

 

Do that for the first month to see how you handle the 10% per month taper. Keep notes as always :-)

Started ADs back around 1995 after bad break-up, starting with Prozac.  Switched to Wellbutrin, and then to Effexor in 2002
Effexor XR 2002-2014 up to 225 mg at one point, down to 37.5 mg towards end but back up to 75 mg in 2014; now realize I had W/D as I dropped down, memory very poor about history.  Extreme emotions, poor concentration as I stepped back down, didn't connect the dots!
Summer 2014 reduced to 0 very quickly, was sick of anhedonia/sexual dysfunction due to meds, depression never controlled if not worse. Didn't recognize WD since symptoms built slowly (thought I had ADD! and menopausal on top of it), starting with severe sweats, very bad cog-fog and memory issues, culminating in weight loss, severe anxiety and depression, panic, severe apathy and insomnia by eight months off.  Saw p-doc who put me on Remeron, increased from 7.5 mg/day to 37.5 mg by May 22, 2015; still doing very badly though able to sleep.

June 1. 2015 Reinstated Effexor XR 37.5 mg, Remeron dropped to 30 mg PM. Immediate relief of symptoms, like nothing had ever happened!  Joined SA and began on advice of friend who recognized it was WD all along! Began tapering in July 2015.

Been tapering both meds ever since, focusing on one more than the other or doing no more than 5% of each per month.

12 mg Effexor and 5.8 mg Remeron (mirtazapine SolTabs to make a solution with OraPlus) as of 5/4/2017 

Update 3/14/18: 2.9 mg Remeron and 6 mg Effexor; 6/10/18:  2.6 mg Remeron and 4.9 mg Effexor

 

My intro: http://survivingantidepressants.org/index.php?/topic/9313-squirrellygirl-effexor-withdrawal-etc/page-2#entry196679

This is not medical advice. Discuss any decisions about your medical care with a knowledgeable medical practitioner.

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Thanks. I weighed the pill and it weighs .101 almost every time. 

 

I just say .100 because the math is easier. That's grams, so I guess that means 100mg.

 

So 100mg=25mg Seroquel.

 

So 4mg=1mg Seroquel.

 

Currently my pill is at 80mg. I think I'll go with pill weight rather than trying to convert. I think it will be easier.

 

So 10% per month would be 8mg. So I decided to make week by week cuts and cut 2mg off the first week (because I'm nervous to cut 4mg). So far only sleep a little more restless. Anxiety seems about the same.

 

I guess if this goes OK, I will cut another 2mg again next week. And then I will have to re-do the math.

 

Thinking that over, I will be at 76mg. So I need to ask what is 10% of that and then cut a quarter off of it for the next week. I think that is 1.9mg. If I feel OK, can I just do 2mg again? Or is that risky?

 

And should I not be doing this week by week for some reason? I'm kind of scared to make a bigger cut all at once. A smaller cut every week sounds less scary.

 

Thanks.

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  • Moderator Emeritus

It sounds like you are going to do a micro-taper.  Maybe this topic will help:  Micro-taper instead of 10% or 5% decreases

 

In your above situation, you are looking at taking off 10% or 8 mg over the month.  So, first week would be 78, then 76, then 74, then 72.  If at any point you feel withdrawal coming on too strong, perhaps go to 5% every two weeks, which may allow your nervous system to do its thing and then calm down before the next cut.  

 

If that first month of weekly tapering went well, then you'd re-calculate for the next month, 10% off 72 mg.  7.2 mg total, 1.8 mg.

 

You might be able to get away with rounding up to 2 mg for the next month, but I am worried that you have noticed a perturbation in your sleep already from a micro cut.  It's really going to depend on how trying this unfolds for the first month.  We generally recommend rounding to a smaller dose than a larger one, especially if you are noticing symptoms.

 

SG

 

 

SG

Started ADs back around 1995 after bad break-up, starting with Prozac.  Switched to Wellbutrin, and then to Effexor in 2002
Effexor XR 2002-2014 up to 225 mg at one point, down to 37.5 mg towards end but back up to 75 mg in 2014; now realize I had W/D as I dropped down, memory very poor about history.  Extreme emotions, poor concentration as I stepped back down, didn't connect the dots!
Summer 2014 reduced to 0 very quickly, was sick of anhedonia/sexual dysfunction due to meds, depression never controlled if not worse. Didn't recognize WD since symptoms built slowly (thought I had ADD! and menopausal on top of it), starting with severe sweats, very bad cog-fog and memory issues, culminating in weight loss, severe anxiety and depression, panic, severe apathy and insomnia by eight months off.  Saw p-doc who put me on Remeron, increased from 7.5 mg/day to 37.5 mg by May 22, 2015; still doing very badly though able to sleep.

June 1. 2015 Reinstated Effexor XR 37.5 mg, Remeron dropped to 30 mg PM. Immediate relief of symptoms, like nothing had ever happened!  Joined SA and began on advice of friend who recognized it was WD all along! Began tapering in July 2015.

Been tapering both meds ever since, focusing on one more than the other or doing no more than 5% of each per month.

12 mg Effexor and 5.8 mg Remeron (mirtazapine SolTabs to make a solution with OraPlus) as of 5/4/2017 

Update 3/14/18: 2.9 mg Remeron and 6 mg Effexor; 6/10/18:  2.6 mg Remeron and 4.9 mg Effexor

 

My intro: http://survivingantidepressants.org/index.php?/topic/9313-squirrellygirl-effexor-withdrawal-etc/page-2#entry196679

This is not medical advice. Discuss any decisions about your medical care with a knowledgeable medical practitioner.

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  • Moderator

You really have the right idea. A little bit of rounding in the dose weight will be necessary from time to time but shouldn't cause any trouble. To take things one step further and make it easier 1mg = 0.25mg seroquel.

 

It would be a good idea to throw in an additional two week hold every 10%. This will allow things to stabilize and not let the symptoms build up and hit all at once.

 

To figure a 10% drop multiply your current dose by .9 to figure a 5% drop multiply by .95. Working with the pill weight is a lot easier for making up the doses, but for record keeping it's best to record both weights.

 

As long as there is ther additional hold period every four drops (10%) there should be no problem with this schedule. It's the one I've used successfully for most of my taper.

20 years on Paxil starting at 20mg and working up to 40mg. Sept 2011 started 10% every 6 weeks taper (2.5% every week for 4 weeks then hold for 2 additional weeks), currently at 7.9mg. Oct 2011 CTed 15oz vodka a night, to only drinking 2 beers most nights, totally sober Feb 2013.

Since I wrote this I have continued to decrease my dose by 10% every 6 weeks (2.5% every week for 4 weeks and then hold for an additional 2 weeks). I added in an extra 6 week hold when I hit 10mg to let things settle out even more. When I hit 3mgpw it became hard to split the drop into 4 parts so I switched to dropping 1mgpw (pill weight) every week for 3 weeks and then holding for another 3 weeks.  The 3 + 3 schedule turned out to be too harsh so I cut back to dropping 1mgpw every 4 weeks which is working better.

Final Dose 0.016mg.     Current dose 0.000mg 04-15-2017

 

"It's also important not to become angry, no matter how difficult life is, because you can loose all hope if you can't laugh at yourself and at life in general."  Stephen Hawking

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SG and Brass Monkey, thanks for all the helpful hints.

 

I am not surprised that my sleep is getting worse already because it was just about non-existent when I started the meds. They were all attempts to treat a serious sleep disorder. So the taper may or may not be the cause of the sleep disruption. I could just be going back to my "normal" non-sleeping state. Nevertheless, I want to see how low I can get on the Seroquel and still get enough sleep to function while I try to get to the bottom of my weird sleep disorder. And the ultimate goal is to get off of all the meds!

 

I guess going slowly and including some holds is the way to do this. My doctor sees no reason to reduce the Seroquel at all, so luckily I am not going to have to rush this. :)

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Just a note to myself of a post I don't want to lose:

 

1) Let the scale stabilize on a hard, flat and level surface.
2) Make sure the sample tray is properly seated inside the circular indent of the scale's metal measuring platform. Take care that the sample tray (as provided) does not touch the body of the scale, grossly throwing off the measurement.
3) Tap the table that the scale is on to help everything settle.
4) Calibrate as described in the manual.
5) Place and remove materials to be weighed consistently and carefully - don't drop them. Even the slightest impact can throw off the measurement.
6) Wait for ten seconds or so for the sample to settle.
7) For minuscule samples, use the ten gram weight in addition to the sample to put the scale in the middle of its operating range. With a little care, one will get closer to the performance of a lab-grade milligram scale than anything else for this price.

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