veronicaq: Celexa CT cause I became paradoxical!

[veronicaq]

Hi, I really need help.

 

I am on 30mg Celexa and 2mg Klonopin. I want to taper off my Celexa first. How can I do it? It interferes with my benzo.

[ChessieCat]

Hi Veronica,

 

Welcome to SA.  The mods will move this post to Introductions and add your name to make your own topic which you will be able to use to ask questions and as a journal of your recovery progress.  Once set up you can Follow this Topic (top right).  You can then use your Topic to ask questions and journal your recovery progress. 

 

I can see you became a member in June 2015 so I'm not sure how much you have already read on this site.  To start you off this site recommends a slow taper of 10% of the previous dose with a 4-6 week holding period to stabilise.  Please also read:   Which Drug to Taper First? & Tips for Tapering Celexa.

 

If you could please put your Withdrawal History in Signature this will allow members to see your history at a glance.

 

From the drug checker:

Interactions between your selected drugs

Moderate  clonazepam citalopram

Applies to: Klonopin (clonazepam), Celexa (citalopram)

Using clonazePAM together with citalopram may increase side effects such as dizziness, drowsiness, and difficulty concentrating. Some people may also experience some impairment in thinking and judgment.

 

CC

[KarenB]

Hello Veronicaq and welcome to s/a,

 

I moved your post here so people can find it.  This will be your journal to record your tapering progress and to ask any questions you might have.  (The other forums are for more general discussion).  I'm really glad you have found this site before you started tapering.  Having the right information makes a huge difference to how things go.

 

CC gave you some really good links.  Have a look through them and then you'll have more idea of how to plan a gentle taper, with help from the mods if you want it.

 

It's also a good idea to have a look through What is Withdrawal and non-drug techniques for coping with emotional symptoms so you can understand the process and how you can help yourself through it.

 

It isn't easy but it's do-able, especially starting from your position of getting info before you act.  When you say the Celexa is interfering with your benzo, does that mean you've been having adverse effects?  What are they?

 

KarenB

[SquirrellyGirl]

Hi Veronicaq, 

 

I'm glad you found us here. 

 

 I assume you haven't actually started tapering.  Are you on your own or have you discussed it with your doctor?

If your doctor is agreeable to you coming off of your meds, you will likely find that he/she wants you to do it faster than it ought to be.  Also, they will likely work within the confines of the available dosages, so taking the smallest dose pill and telling you to take half, and then a quarter and then jumping off.  And they will tell you to do cuts every week or maybe every other week, which is way too fast!  

 

To explain why, it helps to check out these links:

 

http://survivinganti...-concentration/

 

http://survivinganti...0-of-my-dosage/

 

http://survivinganti.../?hl=fluoxetine

 

In this article there is a pdf of a list of withdrawal symptoms you may encounter.

 

http://survivinganti...ptom-checklist/

 

I'm sure a mod will be along shortly to add to what I have put up for you.

 

I'm glad you made it here!  It's a great community, very supportive, and lots of people with tons of experience with everything withdrawal-related.

 

SG

Note:  I cut and pasted this from another intro I posted to.  Since you want to come off of two meds, you will want to focus on one at a time, keeping one constant while tapering the other.  

 

[SquirrellyGirl]

See, I already blew it with my cut and paste!  Here's the tips for Celexa!

 

http://survivingantidepressants.org/index.php?/topic/2023-tips-for-tapering-off-celexa-citalopram/?hl=celexa

[veronicaq]

Hi Karen,

 

Thank you! I am very sick from Celexa 30mg and 2mg of Klonopin. I am not even functional. It's been five weeks. I would not mind doing the 10% taper but the thing is that is too long because Celexa is stimulating my Klonopin. Celexa really makes me sick. So I have dropped down to 20mg today for the next six weeks. Yes, I have adverse effects, anxiety, aggressiveness, dry mouth, heart palpitations, suicidal ideation. And I also have all the symptoms that is mentioned in your message above. My family wants me to cut 30, 20, 10, 0. every six weeks each dosage cut.

Veronica.

[veronicaq]

Hi Squirrel Girl,

 

You can read my response to Karen. Yes I do have a doctor, I will see him soon to discuss my present situation. I know he will be ok with me tapering my celexa. I am going to read your links soon. I am a real mess. Yesterday I was so bad that I was ready to commit myself to a psych ward. I am not crazy. Then my family found out that Celexa is the main problem. I have a lot of anxiety. I am really scared for myself. I am scared I'll never be back the way I used to be. I know the doctor will want me to do it the way faster.

 

Veronica.

[ChessieCat]

Hi Veronica,

 

You say it's been 5 weeks.  How long have you been on Celexa 30mg and how long on Klonopin 2mg?  What makes you say that the Celexa is stimulating the Klonopin?  Once you answer these questions people will be better able to help.

 

You say your family wants you to cut.  May I ask your age and/or what family you are referring to?  The information on this site has come about from people who have been taking medications.  I'm concerned that your family doesn't fully understand that the drugs change your brain and you need to drop slowly to allow your brain to adapt to not getting as much of the drug.

 

Doing a 33% reduction might make you feel even worse.  Please put you drug history in your signature so we can see it at a glance.

 

Edit:  You have just posted that the doctor will want you to do it the faster way.  Please consider that the doctor may not know the best way.

 

CC

[veronicaq]

Chessie cat,

 

I have been six years on both meds. It states on this site that "Antidepressants and ADHD drugs (most are amphetamine analogs) tend to be activating drugs, causing jitteriness, anxiety, or sleeplessness.

Benzodiazepines, the "Z" drugs for sleep, anticonvulsants (such as lamotrigine), Lyrica, gabapentin (Neurontin), and antipsychotics tend to be regulating or sedating drugs, causing drowsiness, sluggishness, or dopiness." 

After doing research of my side effects, we have realized that my AD Celexa is activating my Benzo. I am 40 and my family is my husband, mother, brother, and stepfather. I understand but they have seen me in terrible shape like I am right now. Yes I know the doctor does not know the best way. I am so scared and confused. So sick. 

[KarenB]

Hi Veronicaq,

 

I get the feeling you're quite worried about all this and I don't blame you.  It's hard to figure out what to do when you have doctors and people telling you things without having the full understanding of tapering.  Almost everyone is scared when they first come here - you are not alone.  I was so scared when I first got here, but slowly I worked through things and now I am okay.  You will be too.  The important thing is to not act from a place of panic.   

 

Since you are already feeling a lot of bad effects, it's important that you take a small step down.  Would you consider doing a 10% reduction for this first time and see how that goes for you?  Hopefully it will relieve the severity of the negative interractions.  Then, after 4-6 weeks, if that seems to be okay you could reconsider things.  I'd hate for you to make a bigger reduction and end up in worse trouble.  It's much easier (and safer) to start slow and later increase, than start fast and destabilise your central nervous system further.

 

Perhaps your husband could read this thread?  I know it is so hard for him to see you suffering, and that's why he and others want you to come off more quickly.  It's a natural reaction - but where w/d is concerned it can actually cause more harm.

 

Sending you really big hugs today,

KarenB 

[veronicaq]

Hi Karen,

 

I would but my family does not. I am destabilized. In what shape were you in when you started?

[veronicaq]

Karen, I live with my family, it's so hard for them.

[nz11]

Welcome Veronica,

I am sorry you are in this difficult  situation.

 

If i am totally wrong then please ignore this post.

...................................................//...........................................

This might sound like a silly question but were you prior to 5 weeks ago (It's been five weeks.) actually on 40mg of celexa ?

 

As far as i am aware Celexa doesnt come in 30mg tablets. So i am thinking you may have been on 40mg and dropped to  30mg and that is why you are now destabilized. That's a 25% drop and too much. You may have triggered full blown ssri withdrawal. 

 

If this is the case then you could consider updosing (a little )....rather than end up in hospital. Then when stable taper at the rec rate here.

...............................//....................................................

If on the other hand you have been on celexa 30mg for 6 years then this sudden onset of symptoms could be due perhaps to what some call poop-out ie withdrawal by default. Although from reading others and reflecting on my experience i think poopout doesnt suddenly appear overnight it creeps up on you which is why i am enquiring on the possibility of the 10mg drop for 40mg.

[SquirrellyGirl]

I have no experience with Celexa, but from what I have seen from people discussing it on Patient.info, it is a rough drug!  The start-up side effects are hideous and go on for along time.  People go on that forum complaining about he side effects and asking when will they end?  Patients who are on it chime in that it takes a few months for the side effects to settle down but it is so worth the wait and the ups and downs are part of the healing process, let the medicine do its job.  It's craziness!

 

The drug interaction checker shows a moderate interaction between the two:

 

Interactions between your selected drugs

Moderate clonazepam  citalopram

Applies to: Klonopin (clonazepam), Celexa (citalopram)

Using clonazePAM together with citalopram may increase side effects such as dizziness, drowsiness, and difficulty concentrating. Some people may also experience some impairment in thinking and judgment. You should avoid or limit the use of alcohol while being treated with these medications. Avoid driving or operating hazardous machinery until you know how the medications affect you. It is important to tell your doctor about all other medications you use, including vitamins and herbs. Do not stop using any medications without first talking to your doctor.

 

Doesn't mean you aren't more sensitive and prone to more issues.  Since you have been on both for many years, there must have been a time where they didn't cause such problems.  I am suspecting that the Celexa has pooped out on you in which case reducing will hopefully make you feel better.  

Others can advise, but I do know that I have read on here that when you are having terrible effects from the meds, you can go a little fast, at least initially.  It is important to journal what you are doing and what the results are.  Sometimes WD symptoms won't crop up until 5 or more days after a cut, last several days, and then subside.  This helps you know what your pattern will be so that you can determine how often is safe to cut and how much time to stabilize before the next cut.  You never want to do a cut if your symptoms are worse.  Since you are bad off already, this will be a matter of degrees.

The first article I linked explains why it becomes more important to cut less steeply as you get below the "minimum effective dose" for your drug.  At that dosage, 80% of the receptors are still occupied.  This number begins to drop precipitously as you get lower and lower, meaning that small changes can cause a lot of destabilization.  20 mg is the minimum effective dose for Celexa, so between 20 and 30 shouldn't be as hard to reduce.  Below 20 will probably get more tricky.  Perhaps your first cut could be to 25 mg.  Thoughts, anyone?  Remember, we are looking to alleviate her already troubling symptoms.

SG

 

[SquirrellyGirl]

I will add that in that paper the difference between 10 and 20 mg Celexa is actually rather marginal, but below 10 receptor occupancy falls off drastically with small dosage changes, so that is where you will REALLY want to slow your taper down.  See the graph on page 829 for Cit.  I'm just using this as a guideline; if you start off at 25 mg and the wheels come off the bus several days later, then reinstate 30 and go slower!

 

Of course I defer to senior members here if they see my logic is flawed :-)

 

SG

[SquirrellyGirl]

Welcome Veronica,

I am sorry you are in ths terrible situation.

 

 

As far as i am aware Celexa doesnt come in 30mg tablets. So i am thinking you may have been on 40mg and dropped to  30mg and that is why you are now destabilized. That's a 25% drop and too much. You may have triggered full blown ssri withdrawal. 

 

If this is the case then you could consider updosing (a little )....rather than end up in hospital. Then when stable taper at the rec rate here.

...............................//....................................................

If on the other hand you have been on celexa 30mg for 6 years then this sudden onset of symptoms could be due perhaps to what some call poop-out ie withdrawal by default. Although from reading others and reflecting on my experience i think poopout doesnt suddenly appear overnight it creeps up on you which is why i am enquiring on the possibility of the 10mg drop for 40mg.

 

As usual, someone responded while I was constructing my responses, this time nz11!  Very good post, nz11!  It would help if you could get around to filling out your signature block so that we can see the timeline.  Sorry for the repetition!

 

SG

 

 

[KarenB]

Hi again Veronicaq,

 

NZ noticed something really important that I didn't pick up on - (thanks NZ).  If 5 weeks ago you did make a reduction down to 30mg, then that is probably what is causing you all this trouble - a big whack of withdrawal.

 

So that's the main thing we need to know right now - did you reduce 5 weeks ago, and by how much?

 

It's important to know cause if you did, then like NZ says, a small updose might put an end to much of your suffering.  Hopefully you can reply soon and we can help you work out which direction to go in. 

 

Sorry it's so hard right now.  When I started tapering I was already destabilised because my drug had stopped working, and I'd had previous too-fast tapers.  So it took me quite a while to come right again.  I also feel for you in how this is affecting your family.  My husband and two daughters had to put up with a lot for a long time.  It's not easy on anyone.  Giving them the knowledge to help them understand your situation might help them to be able to support you more. 

 

Hugs,

Karen

[veronicaq]

Hi Karen,

 

No. Five weeks ago I started getting really sick and got destabilized by eating sugar. This is what we think. I was still on regular 30mg Celexa and 2 mg K. I got stress in the meantime which made my sxs worse. No, I just reduced from 30mg to 20mg last Saturday. I can't make decisions. Celexa is making me very sick, all day long I have fears, I am not functional.

[KarenB]

Hi Veroniqa,

 

Would you say your symptoms have got worse or better or no change since your drop from 30mg to 20mg?  As it's quite a big reduction, there is the possibility that your nervous-system will struggle to adapt well to the change. 

 

I believe you that the Celexa is making you sick.  These drugs are awful, and I'm sorry you're in this place.  I just want to be sure that you get off it in a way that doesn't make things worse. 
 

From the drug-interractions checker, between K. and Celexa:

 

Using clonazePAM together with citalopram may increase side effects such as dizziness, drowsiness, and difficulty concentrating. Some people may also experience some impairment in thinking and judgment.

 

 

That would explain the difficulty in decision making. 

 

If things have improved since the cut, then it's probably a good idea to stay at that dose for a while in order to stabilise.

 

If things have worsened, then it's a sign you went too fast and it could be a good idea to reinstate a small amount.  (I know no-one ever wants to do that, but sometimes it's the best plan in the long-run).

 

Would you be able to fill out a signature so we can see your details easily whenever you post?  Thank you.

[veronicaq]

Hi Karen, there has been no change going to reducing to 20mg. I will stay at that dose for a while. 

[veronicaq]

Because I am destabilized, I can't make decisions. So scared, so sick. My brother is making the decisions. He is well aware of the problem. I am going to see my psychiatrist Wednesday, even thought he is a cool guy, I am scared. I am scared of everything!!!! I have stabilized three times before, I don't get it why I am not stabilizing this time. I am crying. I got not life.

[veronicaq]

Started 30 mg of Celexa and 1mg Klonopin May 2009

Was CTed Klonopin of off 1mg April 2014

Reinstated on 1mg Klonopin May 2014

Started tapering Klonopin 1 mg June 2014

Suffered my second CT with Klonopin by taking CIPRO August 2014

Updosed on Klonopin to 2mg of compound 09/2014

Suffered 3rd on Klonopin in May 2015 due to compound.

2nd week of November started getting destabilized from Klonopin due to sugar I believe. I am very sick.

Now, just found out that Celexa is making me very sick

December 2015 went from 30mg to 20mg on Celexa

Updosed on my Klonopin 4mg until I see my Psychiatrist on Wednesday.

[KarenB]

Oh Veronica,

 

I know, it's an awful place to be.  Wish I could give you a real hug right now.  You will have your life again - we've just got to get you through this messy bit. 

 

The reason you are not stabilising this time is because tapering is cumulative.  So this time round there is an extra amount of stress on your system than last time.  Basically, once our brains get mucked around with too many times they start to kick and scream.  Your psychiatrist may not know very much about all this - it is rare to find one that does.

 

When you say you reduced to 20mg last Saturday, does that mean 2 days or 9 days ago?  It is common for dose changes to take a week or so to register. 

 

Clearly this is your decision to make, however I still feel that reinstating a small amount (then eventually tapering by 10%) would give you some relief.  I think this because it looks like your system was starting to react badly to the drugs.  So reducing was therefore the right idea, but unfortunately the amount you reduced by was too much, and your system didn't like that either.  It's still asking you for some stability. 

 

Keep it simple, keep it slow, keep it stable. 

[veronicaq]

2 days ago.

[KarenB]

Okay, so that's not long at all.  4 days to a week or so is what it usually takes for people to notice change.  I hope you get the relief soon.

[ChessieCat]

Found this in the Signature Thread.  Thought I'd post it here for information.

 

Started 30 mg of Celexa and 1mg Klonopin May 2009

Was CTed Klonopin of off 1mg April 2014

Reinstated on 1mg Klonopin May 2014

Started tapering Klonopin 1 mg June 2014

Suffered my second CT with Klonopin by taking CIPRO August 2014

Updosed on Klonopin to 2mg of compound 09/2014

Suffered 3rd on Klonopin in May 2015 due to compound.

2nd week of November started getting destabilized from Klonopin due to sugar I believe. I am very sick.

Now, just found out that Celexa is making me very sick

December 2015 went from 30mg to 20mg on Celexa

Updosed on my Klonopin 4mg until I see my Psychiatrist on Wednesday.

[veronicaq]

I can't make a decision. I am destabilized. I am in hell. People tell me to do this and that, I can't take it anymore. I just want to stabilize. I just want to get better! If I was stabilized, my god it would be so easy for me to make a decision. I just don't know what to do anymore.

[veronicaq]

I also want to add that I had my period last week which I know had to interfere with my destabilization process.

[nz11]

Well done cc.

 

Gee we aren't mind readers although we try our best !

 

I need help here cos i am trying to understand this:

Suffered 3rd on Klonopin in May 2015 due to compound.

2nd week of November started getting destabilized from Klonopin due to sugar I believe. I am very sick.

 

Does 'suffered 3rd on klonopin' mean i suffered my 3rd cold turkey.

So did you reinstate the klonopin between CT in may and 2nd week of nov?

 

What does this mean '2nd week of November started getting destabilized from Klonopin' but you werent taking any klonopin at that time right?

So do you mean that you started getting wdl symptoms from the Klonopin CT 6 months earlier.

Yet your first post above says taking 2mg of K so you must have ri it at some stage.

Did you CT it again at the begin of Nov?

 

I think we need a benzo member here to comment on this ...i know that ad wdl can be delayed for months but i dont know  benzo wdl.

 

No disrespect but Its very difficult for anyone to give suggestions  when only given a small piece of the puzzle. Or pieces are drip fed.

 

 

so sorry you are in this difficult position.

Let us know how the pdoc appointment goes tomorrow.

 

edit: clearly we need a woman to comment here

time for a long walk along Cape FW

nz11

Step away from the computer nz

[Betsy]

mammaP:

 

Boy, you can use photobucket much easier than I can. lol. I hate that app. I use other methods.

 

Betsy

 

Veronicaq:

 

Seems you've been through the mill. I never did like Celexa. It made me awfully jumpy. Oh, and that awful Cipro.Taking that essentially makes you go C/T. Since you have kindled 3X, that usually makes for a more difficult w/d the next go around. Are you sure it's the sugar? I know, people tell you not to eat sugar while tapering. But there is sugar is most everything, unless it is whole, organic foods. Even BBQ sauce has lots of sugar in it. So does OJ. I happen to be one that cheats a lot with the sugar. Often eating too much cake or pie. I usually end up with a one day sugar crash, but that's all. Since you are on 4 mg of kpin, I would wait until you see your doctor. Pls try not to go up and down in that dose in the meantime. Hopefully, you have a good doc. It would be wise, if he/she is new, to bring some printed out material with you. Such as The Manual. While you must be polite and respectful, let him know they you want to be in charge of your own taper. I was on a whopping 10 mg and let him know in advance what I wanted to do. He was fine with that.

 

So I did a partial C/O to valium, but had 6.5 mg of kpin to taper. I decided to do c/h, about 5% every two weeks, until I reached .625 mg. Then I did a dry micro taper, using a scale. That was one great decision. However, everybody is different and there is no reason why you cannot do a direct taper. One usually saves things like titration or a micro taper at the end. I'm sure, if you have a good doc, the both of you will be able to set up a plan that will work. If it does not, then you can always change that plan. Sometimes, I see when someone does not have a plan that works for them, they end up taking rescue doses often. I do not recommend getting in the habit of doing so. I'm sure you'll be fine if you have a good doc who understands benzo tapering. Some folks, however, have much difficulty finding a good doc, who might want them to go C/T, or do a rapid w/d. In those cases they just lie and say they want to stay on them for life, and taper with the help of others, usually with an online forum such as benzobuddies.org. The point being that they want a steady supply of pills in order to taper. But I'm sure you will will do fine. If I managed to taper off 6.5 mg, with two kindles under my belt and few if little symptoms, you will be able to do so as well. I am not far off from being kpin free, but thus far, I do not have any post w/d symptoms. I wish you only the best in your journey. Think of it as a new beginning.

 

Betsy

[KarenB]

Hi Veronica,

 

Looking at the newest info (thanks CC) it seems you have become very sensitised to Klonopin after many dose changes.  The sugar may have exacerbated it, but looking at that history I'd say you were due some trouble. 

 

I'm sorry you're feeling got at from all sides.  Our only intention is to share with you what we have learned here so that you might recover - in response to your initial request.  

 

Small reductions are key, in order to both achieve some stability and to lessen the side-effects from the drugs.  

 

Best wishes,

KarenB 

[bubble]

Hello Veronica and very sorry you have found yourself in this situation.

 

I will try to be brief because I know you are in distress and it is probably difficult for you to take in all the information and suggestions here.

 

I think that your problems that started in November are caused by changing doses of Klonopin and not by Celexa. Making such a big cut on Celexa made you feel so much worse. 

 

If I were you I would go back to 30 mg of Celexa since it's been only 2 days after that big reduction.

 

It will be difficult for us to help you because you are so very scared and panicking. It is understandable but the most important thing that we can do for ourselves in such situations is to stay as calm as possible. It's great to have the support of our families but I always prefer to stay in control and in charge. You are not so helpless as you think. These decisions are difficult for anyone to take. Your brother and your doctor are not in a much better position to make them than you are.

 

Hang in there.

[veronicaq]

I really need help!!! I CT Celexa Dec. 30th 2015, I had to because I became paradoxical. Otherwise, I would have never CT. I got updosed to 4mg of K and I am in hell. I need help, support. I am in hell. I have high anxiety, OCD, depression. Is there anyone in here that I can talk to or that went through this? I am too scared to go back on it!

[SquirrellyGirl]

Hi veronicaq, I merged this new post with your Introl topic since it is an update to your situation.

 

It would be really helpful if you could fill in your signature:  If you could please put your Withdrawal History in Signature this will allow members to see your history at a glance.  Include when you CT'd Celexa.

 

When you say Celexa went paradoxical, what were your symptoms?

 

Started 30 mg of Celexa and 1mg Klonopin May 2009

Was CTed Klonopin of off 1mg April 2014

Reinstated on 1mg Klonopin May 2014

Started tapering Klonopin 1 mg June 2014

Suffered my second CT with Klonopin by taking CIPRO August 2014

Updosed on Klonopin to 2mg of compound 09/2014

Suffered 3rd on Klonopin in May 2015 due to compound.

2nd week of November started getting destabilized from Klonopin due to sugar I believe. I am very sick.

Now, just found out that Celexa is making me very sick

December 2015 went from 30mg to 20mg on Celexa

Updosed on my Klonopin 4mg until I see my Psychiatrist on Wednesday.

When you say you just found out Celexa was making you very sick, how did you find this out?  In December you did a large cut, dropping by 1/3.  You joined us here at SA around that time.  What happened from there?  Did you do further cuts or did you CT off of 20 mg? With the Klonopin history, such a large cut would have been very destabilizing, and then to CT from there would of course make things even worse.  If you could update us on your history between December and now, it would be very helpful.  

 

SG

[KarenB]

Hello,

 

It's good to hear from you again, but sorry you are feeling so bad. 

 

We can sort this out, just go through the questions from SG so we can work out what's going on. 

 

Step by step....you'll get through it.

 

Hugs,

Karen

[veronicaq]

Hi,

 

I want to get off my meds. 

I am on:

80mg Prozac 11 months on it

10 mg Zyprexa 11 months on it

2400 mg gabapentin 11 months on it

3mg klonopin. 8 years on it

 

I want to taper them 10% monthly together. How can I do that? Can anyone help me?