Woof: Cymbalta re-stabilization, after cold turkey withdrawal

November 8, 2016

Hi Chessie Cat

Yep, unfortunately, I am sure it's blood and it's been in my last 6 BMs.

It's bright red, so fortunately it's not an upper GI bleed, as you know those are dark, tar colored stools.

This did not occur with my first updose, but I did not have much of an appetite from the first updose until 3.5 weeks later. For me it seems as though this is how long it takes for the anxiolytic affect of the updose to take place.

I thought I may have read somewhere that Serotonin combines with platelets leading to an increased chance of bleeding with all AD's that block serotonin reuptake. Is this correct?

If so, I think I will just wait this out over the next week or so, I believe NSAIDS inhibit platelets for about 3 days?

Updosing is a lot harder and takes a lot of patient's, even more than tapering, at least for me.

I can only updose 5 beads (0.5mg) per month; I have tried more (NOT GOOD)

My insomnia (1:30 AM wake-up and no going back to sleep) and Tinnitus 2/10 have returned a week after my second updose. The more I deal with this process the more I doubt some things, but it was nice to sleep for a week.

These are the most complex drugs I have ever encountered. They effect almost everything.

Thanks so much

Woof

November 9, 2016

I'm so sorry Woof!

I had that for a few days after a one day dose increase of Lexapro. Luckily, it stooped without further treatment. There is a warning in the Lexapro insert about Blood in stool.

I hope it stops for you soon.

You have been very successful updosing this meds, which is great. At the same time, updosing can be risky too.

November 14, 2016

Hi LexAnger,

The blood in my stools has completely ceased in concert with my stools being normal color and no more diarhea.

Thank you for sharing your experience and knowledge of this issue which scared the heck out of me.

There is one thing I never mentioned that I have noticed since my July 4th cut, which has not gone away and it may sound a bit strange, but I have a great deal of difficulty watching TV now; it's just too much excitement for me and creates anxiety.

Has anyone else had this occur and has it abated over time?

Most Sincerely,

Woof

November 14, 2016

That's a really common one Woof. Most TV shows are designed to be very stimulating and can be too intense even for "normal" people to watch. Try and find some of the lighter fare, sitcoms, cooking shows, nature shows and the like but stay away from the dramas. It should pass and you'll be binge watching Breaking Bad in no time. (Breaking Bad is a very intense show for those who haven't seen it.)

November 14, 2016

and you'll be binge watching Breaking Bad in no time. (Breaking Bad is a very intense show for those who haven't seen it.)

LOL, Brass. Just finished binge watching Breaking Bad a few weeks ago.

Unbelievable show.

November 22, 2016

I have managed to get myself into a state of depresssion.

I don't know if it's from my base dose of 25mg/day Valium or from all of the additional Valium.

Since my July 4th cut and Vicodin use and extreme 10/10 anxiety.

In addition to my nightly regular dose of 25mg of Valium which I started around February/March 2016, I have used an additional 140mg in Sept for anxiety, 30mg in Oct to help with the updosing and 30mg in Nov to help with the updosing.

For a grand total of 200mg over the past 3 months; in addition to my nightly regular dose of 25mg which I started around February/March 2016.

I should have just held on any Cymbalta reduction tapered off of the Valium as you all had suggested. But this is where I am at now.

Would you recommend I try to updose a on my Valium to get out of this depression or just hold?

Thanks so much,

Woof

November 22, 2016

Would you recommend I try to updose a on my Valium to get out of this depression or just hold?

Woof,

Sorry you are struggling. Valium is a depressant. Not sure why/how you think that would "get you out of" this depression?

To me it seems like throwing more "stuff" against the wall and hoping something sticks with no real reason to believe it will.

I would hold and avoid all the "tinkering". The increases every now and then of valium only serve to destabilize your CNS. The brain doesn't know how much it will get and when and starts asking questions. I know you don't want to be uncomfortable but, unfortunately, getting through this process requires one to be less than comfortable all the time.

Best,

Andy

November 28, 2016

I made the following post in "after-reinstating-or-updosing-how-long-to-stabilize" at http://survivingantidepressants.org/index.php?/topic/4244-after-reinstating-or-updosing-how-long-to-stabilize/

A number of members placed posts; thereafter, including Altostrata and Chessiecat.

However, those posts are now gone and I could not post anything on that forum.

Was there something wrong with the subject matter?

I believe even Altostrata thought it was a good post at the time.

Just wondering if there was some issue I was missing, I just want to learn.

Thanks Woof

Posted 18 October 2016 - 02:19 PM

Altostrata, on 03 May 2013 - 1:34 PM, said:

You need to let your nervous system stabilize after reinstating. How long this might take depends on how long you've been off the drug and other factors. If you were off only a couple of days, you might stabilize for a month before trying to taper. If you've been off longer, to be safe, you should give your nervous system longer to stabilize, even if symptoms go away right away. If you've been off months, it might take months before you stabilize. Do not attempt to taper again until you feel symptom-free. (Cold turkey off another psych drug simultaneously compounds the situation.)

Hello Alto,

Thank you so very much for creating this site. BTW, I actually grew up in SF and went to Woodrow Wilson High on Mansell, but I think it's closed now.

This statement above is such a great and very important piece of information.

I was wondering if you think this post or something paraphrasing it may be appropriate to add to the first page of the Forum on tapering, where reinstatement is discussed in some detail.

I personally was pretty frantic when I first got to SA and didn't know my way around and has so much vital information, so I initially just read the Forums and did not see the post above until a few weeks ago.

Just my 2 cents,

You all are the best,

Most Respectfully and most Sincerely,

Woof

November 28, 2016

Hi Andy,

I have an appt. to see to see the Doctor. I hope we can get on a path of stabilization.

I have been advised by one well noted and quoted Doctor's on this site to go directly back up to 20mg and hold.

I have come to the conclusion, that I am not strong enough to withdraw from Cymbalta.

This site is great and has incredibly caring and intellegent people like yourself.

I look forward to what the local Doctor says.

Thanks so much,

Woof

November 28, 2016

Hi, Woof. The topic is still there with no hidden posts, not sure what you mean. Maybe one of your posts was moved to your Intro thread because it was an update?

You can find all your topics and posts by looking in My Content (click on your name in the upper right) or by using Advanced Search (little gear icon).

November 28, 2016

Cymbalta to Prozac crossover does not usually go well. If you are on Cymbalta slow taper off. There is a group - Cymbalta Hurts Worse on Facebook that has extensive knowledge in tapering off Cymbalta.

December 5, 2016

Alto thanks for the advice I'll check into that.

Bethsimmons thank you for the advice regarding Prozac, which makes total sense to me. How could Prozac help with the Norepinephrine aspect of Cymbalta, it would essentially be a CT regarding Norepinephrine.

Also, I will most defintely check out Cymbalta Hurts Worse. Thanks so much Woof

This site has taught me so very much and you all have been so kind, caring and supportive of me. I believe this is the best site on the internet to help teach you the safest and best manner in which to taper off of these meds.

For me I never had any problems with Cymbalta prior to my CT of the med. I simply wanted to get off all meds. So I arrogantly...CT'd 20mg/d Cymbalta on Nov, 25 2015 - 4 weeks later: severe 10/10 wd sx's: Anxiety, Insomnia, Tinnitus, Restlessness.

Fortunately, I reinstated 5 weeks after my CT @ the full 20mg/d. My initial understanding was that I had reinstated at too high a dose. To compound the matter I added Valium 25mg/day for the CT Cymbalta wd sxs.

I believe that what happened to me was that I started making cuts before I was virtually symptom free and once I cut to 143 beads on July 4th 2016 all heck broke lose.

So eventually, I felt I had no choice, but to updose. On Sept 24th I added 5 beads (143 to 148) 15mg things improved, but still not to pre July 4th level. Then Oct 29th I added 5 beads (148-153 beads) 15.5mg things improved, but still not to pre July 4th level.

I spoke with four MD's (one of whom is one of the top three cited doctors on this site) and they all concurred that, I did not updose at too high a level and that I should updose to the full 20mg.

One of the MD's wanted to put me on Lamictal to help with my sleep, but I declined (THANK YOU SA) especially considering that immediately after I updosed to 20mg my sleep returned to normal.

So, on Nov 28th I added 41 beads (153-194) took a full 20mg of Cymbalta. I was very afraid to do this, but it has worked well so far.

Since doing so I have experienced zero negative sx's (maybe the two small updoses helped prep this large updose in that respect?).

Since going to the full 20mg pill I have finally stopped the 2-4 AM waking and have slept anywhere from 6.5 to 7.5 hours per night. I think I my mind has been partially been stabilizing over the past year.

I must say I do not think I could have handled the Cymbalta CT sx's regardless of if I reinstated the 20mg Cymbalta or not, I needed the Valium at that time, but the reinstatement did not negatively affect me.

My plan at this point is to stay on the 20mg of Cymbalta at least for the next 5 years.

I also plan to follow-up with the Doctor in January and see how we proceed to taper off of the Valium.

I am thinking 10%/month, but I will contemplate what he has planned.

I he mentioned that going onto Lamictal will make the Valium withdrawal 90% easier. I think I will pass on that.

However, I have tapered off of Valium in the past and did it at a fast rate of 10%/week and my only sx was one month of insomnia after, I finished the taper; at any rate I will proceed in a careful slow fashion.

Thanks so much,

Woof

December 5, 2016

Hi, Woof. The topic is still there with no hidden posts, not sure what you mean. Maybe one of your posts was moved to your Intro thread because it was an update?

You can find all your topics and posts by looking in My Content (click on your name in the upper right) or by using Advanced Search (little gear icon).

Alto,

Thanks for the tip on the "little gear icon."

My mistake, I had previously been in the wrong forum/topic

I used the "little gear icon" and found all of the posts in the forum/topic on:

"About reinstating and stabilizing to reduce withdrawal symptoms"

thanks for everything,

Woof

December 23, 2016

Posted 22 December 2016 - 12:25 PM

Altostrata, on 03 May 2013 - 1:34 PM, said:

You need to let your nervous system stabilize after reinstating. How long this might take depends on how long you've been off the drug and other factors. If you were off only a couple of days, you might stabilize for a month before trying to taper. If you've been off longer, to be safe, you should give your nervous system longer to stabilize, even if symptoms go away right away. If you've been off months, it might take months before you stabilize. Do not attempt to taper again until you feel symptom-free. (Cold turkey off another psych drug simultaneously compounds the situation.)

If one did not have problems with the AD in the first place. Tapering off them may not be the best choice for that person. My situation is perhaps a bit odd in that I just wanted off of all meds, because I thought it was a good thing.

Please see my intro below. Hopefully this can be of some help to someone in a simillar situation.

For over 10 years I never experienced any problems with 20mg/d Cymbalta, It actually helped my sleep. Although, I wish I never started it for my neck pain, but that is way in the past. I just wanted to get off of all meds.

It's been 4 weeks now since I fully updosed to 20mg/d Cymbalta, after 3, 10% cuts. The first cut was good as my AM anxiety immediately went away, so I thought that tapering was right for me.

Now I believe Alto's words above are extremely wise and that the anxiety and insomnia would have resolved, given a few more months at my reinstated dose of 20mg/d; as is empirically evidenced by my current state.

I was so scared to updose by 41 beads, but I did have confidence in the 4 doctors I consulted with and they all independently concurred with the action I should take - take the full 20mg pill.

One of these MDs is one of the 3 most cited MD's on this site, as well as within the healthcare community.

While 41 beads sounds like a lot, if you look at the exponential activity curve (which these MDs were all well aware of) in combination with my dose and the fact that I had had no problems with Cymbalta in the first place, I took their advice.

I do believe my first 2 updoses helped a lot, because I experienced no negative sx's from this 41 bead updose.

With the exception of my 1-3/10 tinnitus all of my sxs have resolved at this point.

All of my sx's just got better and better starting immediately after I updosed to my original 20mg/d level.

After a full year, my sleep finally has come back (the 2-4AM wake up is gone), anxiety is gone, appetite is great, BM's are normal, I can watch sports or anything I want on TV again and Anhedonia is gone

Unfortunately, now I have to taper off of 25mg/d of Valium :mellow: , but at least my mind seems quite a bit more stabilized at this point.

I will be tapering slowly off of the Valium after about another month or so of additional stabilization.

Everyone on this site has been wonderful to me and I have learned so very much from all of you, this is without question the best online site.

I just hope that this post may help others.

Warmest Regards,

Woof

April 11, 2017

Hello everyone,

First, I wanted to thank everyone for their efforts to help me with my Cymbalta taper, but I was too weak and just could not take it, so I fully reinstated the Cymbalta.

I am now going through my Valium taper, I am 4 weeks out from my second cut. Things have gone relatively well, all things considered.

I was wondering if the Cymbalta is making adjustments to the cuts in Valium, but it is taking about 4 weeks for the Cymbalta adjustments as that's when the Valium cut is 95% out of my system?

I seem to go through the Valium wd sx's at 2.5 weeks out from the cut, when 75-90% of the Valium cut is out of my system.

My Valium taper wd sx's consisted of 3/10 paresthesias [forearms] & 6/10 anxiety X 7 days, which went away after about 7 days.

Then I get hit with a second wave, but it's way different, it's more like 10/10 Anhedonia with AM Panic Attacks which subsides after about a week or two.

This second wave scenario occurred with both of my Valium cuts.

I was wondering if this could be my Cymbalta trying to re-stabilize after the Valium cuts?

I don't believe that I am fully stabilized with reference to my Cymbalta, especially considering my history of CT, reinstatement and updose of Cymbalta.

Will I need to be fully off of Valium before the Cymbalta can fully stabilize?

I have been on my full dose (updose) of 20mg of Cymbalta for 4.5 months and I have been on, at least 15mg, for almost 1.5 years; after CT, 5 week later reinstatement 4 month later taper to 15mg, followed by a 41 bead updose 7 months after the start of my Cymbalta taper.

Thanks so much,

Woof

April 12, 2017

I also wanted to mention that I have been discussing this issue with Shep over on the Benzo side.

Thanks Again,

Woof

April 29, 2017

My understanding is that L-Theanine and 5HTP increase serotonin and that Ashagwanda, Lemon Balm and Passion Flower increase Gaba.

There is a new product out called RediCalm which combines all 5 of these supplements: https://www.nutreance.com/products/redicalm

I think this may help many in lieu of Benzos or ADs.

I asked Shep about supplements I could use during my Valium taper and he suggested I post my questions here as he felt you all knew a lot more about supplements.

During my Benzo taper is it helpful or harmful to take supplements which increase Gaba; such as, Ashagwanda, Lemon Balm or Passion Flower?

Also, does L-Theanine increase Serotonin or Gaba?

I have been making 10% cuts and holding for at least 2 months and my wd sx's have been quite severe, but I have no doubt I need to get off of the Valium.

My worse Valium wd sx's consist of 4:20 AM Panic attacks which can last for hours and anxiety until around 4PM.

Thanks Woof

April 29, 2017

You might find this topic helpful: why-do-we-reach-for-quick-fixes

April 30, 2017

Woof,

Sorry to hear you are struggling,

First things first -- Shep is a she.

Every one of the things you pointed to might help you but they might also harm you. It is very hard to decide what to do but our general philosophy is that less is more. When your CNS has been compromised by psych meds any new substance can create unanticipated consequences which may create more problems. At the end of the day the choice is yours, but if you try any supplement try it in isolation at a very low dose.

L-theanine supports GABA.

Best,

Andy

April 30, 2017

Hello ChessieCat and Andy,

I want to thank you both for your concern and advice, as well as letting me know that Shep is a female - no offense intended.

I also wanted to mention to all that one of the reasons I felt I had to updose on the Cymbalta, was because my Drs. said I needed to get off of Valium and my understanding was that Valium was an important part of tapering off of an AD.

I am at least thankful that they are allowing me to taper slowly 10% 6-8 week holds.

Since tapering the Valium my depression and anhedonia (one Dr. told me they were the same thing) has decreased and I no longer wake up between 2-4 PM.

Are depression and anhedonia the same thing?

So, I believe Valium may have been causing at least some of those sx's.

But since tapering the Valium I get 7/10 panic attacks at 4:20 AM and throughout the day with triggers. I wore eye covers last night and I think it helped.

I also have daily generalized anxiety until about 3PM.

Thanks so much,

Woof

May 2, 2017

Hello,

I am doing much better now at a 7.5 week hold.

My taper wd sx's do seem to be bi-phasic in nature.

2.5 weeks after the Valium cut, when 75% of the cut is gone, I get 5/10 anxiety, for about 1 week. So the first 4 weeks are not bad at all.

However, about 4 weeks after the Valium cut, I start to get 7/10 panic attacks, primarily in the AM and 4/10 anxiety from waking until about 3 or 4PM.

This lasts for about 3 weeks and then one day they just stop...that was yesterday.

It appears that once 95% or so of the Valium cut is out of my system, the Cymbalta makes it's adjustments which are much more severe than the first 4 weeks of the Valium cut.

Hopefully, this information can add a drop to the wealth of knowledge on this website.

Finally, there are a couple of new products out, which you are probably already be aware of, which can possibly help with anxiety or sleep.

They are:

"RediCalm" which is made up of: L-Theanine and 5HTP (serotonin); and Ashagwanda, Lemon Balm and Passion Flower (Gaba).

https://www.nutreanc...ducts/redicalm

"Symple Sleep" which is made up extract of passion fruit (Gaba) and lavender

http://www.symplenature.com/sleep-presentation.html

I think these may be of some help for those who have already tapered off their meds, as they are natural and non-addicting.

Also, hopefully prevent many from starting Benzos or ADs in the first place.

All the Best,

Woof

May 4, 2017

Hello

I do not plan to use any of these supplements, I just thought they may be helpful to some who didn't CT and destabilize their brain like I did with the Cymbalta.

I have had no wd sx's for four days now.

This is how the first 3mg cut of Valium manifested itself, except that I feel better than I have in over a year.

This is despite extreme stress at work, my tinnitus is even gone (for today).

I was actually happy the last two days, not wd happy, but actually my happiness - it's been almost a year since I have been really happy.

Seeing a pattern in my taper wd sx's has greatly decreased my fear of tapering and the future overall, which I believe will decrease my stress and may have in part caused my tinnitus to go away - at least for today.

I plan to hold for another week or so as to let this good feeling settle in.

Thanks for everything,

Woof

May 4, 2017

Wow! Great news, Woof!

Keep doing what you are doing. If it ain't broke -- don't fix it.

Best,

Andy

May 4, 2017

Hi Andy,

Thank you so much for your support and encouragement.

Woof

May 16, 2017

Hello,

After a 9 week hold, I just cut 2mg of Valium from 23mg down to 21mg last night.

My memory has definitely improved since I have begun the Valium taper and I feel better after each cut.

The first 4 weeks of the first two cuts were not too bad, 6/10 anxiety all day from weeks 2-4.

Then at week 5 depression 6/10 comes on for about a week.

Then during week 6, I get severe 8/10 am panic attacks upon waking, this lasts for about 4-5 days.

Then at week 7 the anxiety just stops...at least so far and that's when I consider when to cut again.

I think what may have happened to me during my Cymbalta taper, was that when I made the 3rd Cymbalta cut on July 4 2016, the depression, anhedonia (emotional numbness) and complete loss of appetite caused by the Valium were all unmasked in a severe (9/10) fashion.

I also believe that I started my Cymbalta taper to soon after my CT and reinstatement, as my CT sx's had not completely resolved, and I don't think it would be possible to assess that unless I was off of the Valium which I was taking for the CT sx's in the first place.

I have done a lot more reading on SA, since I first found SA and there are a number of posts which state one should not attempt to taper until one's sx's after reinstatement have completely resolved.

However, as I had started Valium to help with the CT Cymbalta sx's I think this would a very difficult assessment to make.

I now believe (hind sight is 20/20 ) I should have held on any tapering of the Cymbalta and tapered off of the Valium when I first came to SA for two reasons.

One was that I had only been on Valium for 3 months and tapering would have most likely been a lot easier than it is now and also so that we could assess what CT Cymbalta sx's were still present.

The two sx's I had when I arrived at SA was that I would always wake at 2 AM, but I would usually go back to sleep, 3-4/10 AM anxiety until about 1:30PM and 2-3/10 tinnitus.

This is weird as heck, but it was not until I updosed on my Cymbalta and started my Valium taper did I finally sleep through the night, now I never wake between 2-4 AM.

Also, my AM anxiety is gone except when I make my Valium cuts.

So, empirically I believe that if I had not started cutting the Cymbalta these sx's would have gone away, given more time with the reinstatement, as that is what has occurred despite my Valium taper.

What's so unfortunate is that when I made my first 10% cut of Cymbalta my AM anxiety went completely away the next day and did not return, so I think we all believed tapering at that time was a great thing.

Everything was going along fine until my 3rd 10% Cymbalta cut on July 4th 2016 tha't when all heck broke loose.

I really don't know if it was the effects of the Valium being unmasked or the fact that I started my Cymbalta taper prior to all of my CT sx's going away.

I know we all are trying our best to support and help one another, but this stuff is absolutely baffling.

I am just hoping that as I taper down off of the Valium and time passes that the Cymbalta has more time to stabilize.

Can the Cymbalta truly stabilize with the Valium on board or can it only do so after the Valium is gone?

I apologize for the length of this post, but I have been thinking a lot about what has happened to me and what I have done to myself.

Thank you all for your continued support,

Woof

May 19, 2017

My understanding was that the optimal time to reinstate is the sooner the better, with 1-2 months being at the outer limits of having a successful reinstatement - is this correct?

Does updosing have the same time limitations as reinstatement?

I updosed 41 beads after a 5 month hold at that dose, only good came from the updose, and I seem to very gradually be getting better.

Of course my updose was after a CT and a reinstatement 5 weeks later.

I am currently tapering off of the Valium and after each of the first 2 cuts, I have felt better.

Although during weeks 2-7 of the hold I get: anxiety, depression, diarrhea and panic attacks they all subside by week 7.

Can the Cymbalta truly stabilize with the Valium on board or can it only do so after the Valium is gone?

Thanks Woof

May 24, 2017