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Probiotics and gut health

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Has anyone found probiotics to be activating? I may have started out with a too high of dose after reading this thread. About an hour after taking the capsule I felt very anxious and dizzy. Just curious if anyone has experienced this. Thanks.

I haven't had that experience but as one who has had strange reactions to supplements, I don't doubt what you are saying at all.   Perhaps take 1/2 the starting dose and see how you do?

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New research on probiotics has been coming up increasingly just in the last year, this being one of the latest. In fact, they've given it a nickname "Psychobiotics". 

http://blog.lifeextension.com/2015/07/probiotics-may-relieve-depression.html?utm_source=facebook&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=normal

 

On a side note, I was hospitalized 35 years ago from an acute superinfection (C. difficile) caused from a 2-month round of tetracycline prescribed for minor acne as a teenager and was never the same after. And once you suffer something like an infection, you don't even have a choice to taper. My first bout of iatrogenic damage.

 

As we all know, antibiotics are a double-edged sword and should only be used in life-threatening incurable infections, but like psych meds, all too often, the Medical Orthodoxy hands them out like candy.

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In regards to digestive enzymes, I don't understand why on earth they would be necessary unless someone has a pancreatic/stomach inefficiency/injury.  I think it's well established that digestion of foostuffs in the human gut is incredibly effective.  Moreover, most of those enzymes will get either denatures or destroyed  by stomach acid in your stomach anyway (any complex protein like that will get inactivated or destroyed in the stomach).  I honestly think stomach enzymes are a total waste of $$$ but some people have reported on here that they help - so to each their own.  I don't think they can really hurt, unless there's some sort of impurity in the supplement that we're hypersenitive to.

 

On the other hand, probiotics have some merit - like this thread has mentioned there's a burgeoning interest in this area of research and more and more is being learned each year about the connection between gut flora and overall health.  I'm not sure how the bacteria manages to survive the low pH of the human stomach, and it's entirely possible that I'm just spending money on these things so they can get converted into amino acids and such in my stomach.  thankfully, they are not very expensive.

 

I've been taking probiotics now for a couple of weeks, and have found almost no difference in my symptoms.  But it certainly helps me psychologically to know that my gut bacteria are "more balanced" I suppose.  Like all supplements, there 1828343204892304823 different brands to choose from so I find it next to impossible how to decide.

 

I try my best to take them 2X a day on an empty stomach. 

 

Here's the brand I'm taking:

 

http://www.amazon.com/NOW-Foods-Probiotic-10-Billion-Vcaps/dp/B002S1U7RU

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Has anyone found probiotics to be activating? I may have started out with a too high of dose after reading this thread. About an hour after taking the capsule I felt very anxious and dizzy. Just curious if anyone has experienced this. Thanks.

I had a bad reaction

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Before and while taking Cipralex I had terrible IBS - never had it before moving to Canada.

 

Since coming off Cipralex and now taking Probiotic (Webber Naturals 30BN), my gut has much improved.

 

I actually started taking it because of the painkillers I was on for the aches and pains I had been experiencing which plays havoc with the digestive system (constipation for one).

 

Stopped taking the painkillers as soon as I could.

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http://www.prevention.com/mind-body/probiotics-antidepressants

 

Just read this today; I have had digestive issues since I was in high school; anytime I take an antibiotic I get really bad anxiety;

 

Any suggestions for strains that might be more effective for anxiety?

I've. Been searching but no one knows yet - also I have read about die off and side effects; anyone have this?

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I'm in the kefir and yogurt group.  Do those make you more anxious?

 

Great article!

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No none will cause anxiety, but some are supposed to help with anxiety - just not sure if this is relevant to wd

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I think it does have to do with withdrawal.  I don't think that stuff in the gut is the "whole" explanation of any of our symptoms before taking our psych medications.......or even after.  Man, it's complicated.  It's part of the healthier balance though of our systems as a whole. 

 

I was glad to find this section and especially after doing a round of antibiotics.

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Has anyone read "Brain Maker"?  http://www.drperlmutter.com/about/brain-maker-by-david-perlmutter-md/

 

The author gives some specific suggestions as to the probiotics to take for anxiety and brain health.

 

No, have you read this?

 

I think the knowledge of the influence of gut microbes on physiological functions is still poorly understood at this stage of the game.

 

My problem with probiotics is this:  how the heck do you know whether or not the low pH of the stomach isn't killing everything before they get a chance to establish themselves in the gut?

 

One of the stomachs major physiological functions is to kill microbes - so swallowing a microbe pill that's covered by geletin doesn't seem very convincing to me.

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My problem with probiotics is this:  how the heck do you know whether or not the low pH of the stomach isn't killing everything before they get a chance to establish themselves in the gut?

 

One of the stomachs major physiological functions is to kill microbes - so swallowing a microbe pill that's covered by geletin doesn't seem very convincing to me.

 

 

So what you're saying is instead of eating yogurt, we should be getting yogurt enemas.  Sounds like a business opportunity to me! 

 

I think the idea, at least with the dairy based probiotics, is that the dairy reduces the effects of stomach acid and some amount of the microbes get through.  Whether or not that actually occurs is another question.

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My problem with probiotics is this:  how the heck do you know whether or not the low pH of the stomach isn't killing everything before they get a chance to establish themselves in the gut?

 

One of the stomachs major physiological functions is to kill microbes - so swallowing a microbe pill that's covered by geletin doesn't seem very convincing to me.

 

 

So what you're saying is instead of eating yogurt, we should be getting yogurt enemas.  Sounds like a business opportunity to me! 

 

I think the idea, at least with the dairy based probiotics, is that the dairy reduces the effects of stomach acid and some amount of the microbes get through.  Whether or not that actually occurs is another question.

 

 

A certain amount of bacteria survives the low pH of the stomach - even in regular meals.  When babies are born, they are born with bacteria free guts - and then as they interact with the environment, and eat foods, breast milk, etc, bacteria finds its way into the colon, and develops into robust colonies - and apparently these colonies are relative to the diet that the person ingests. 

 

It's very interesting that certain people have different %s of the different strains of bacteria in their guts - some tend to have more of one kind than others, and studies have shown that this may be directly correlated with obesity, etc. 

 

I'm honestly not very convinced any of this is too terribly important, considering that something like 95% of all nutrients are absorbed in the small intestine - where bacteria exert little to no influence whatsoever.

 

Dairy aenemas would probably do the trick in establishing gut bacteria of those particular strains (maybe, depending on competition with pre-existing bacterial colonies) - but would also cause horrendous, epic...epic, diarrhea.

 

Another fun physiological fact:  something like 75%+ of feces is actually sloughed off dead bacteria!

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So my daughter has had pre-verbal trauma and is quite "high strung." We had her stool tested in a test that does DNA identification of microbes and some other things. She had high levels of pathogenic clostridium species (not C.diff), H.pylori, and a mold, can't remember the name. Also high fat content which supposedly means she is generally not digesting food well. The clostridium treatment was a one-organism probiotic in high doses. Now for the H.pylori she is doing oregano oil, some other herb, and a combo powder that emphasizes l-glutamine, but all kinds of GI soothers in it. She had a lot of fatigue with treatment one and is having a die-off issue with nausea and headache, but I have to say she is already significantly calmer. She also had anti-gliadin antibodies, so we are muddling thru the gluten-free teen issues stuff. She is now off Zyrtec which she has taken for bedtime chronic urticaria for many years.

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My problem with probiotics is this:  how the heck do you know whether or not the low pH of the stomach isn't killing everything before they get a chance to establish themselves in the gut?

 

One of the stomachs major physiological functions is to kill microbes - so swallowing a microbe pill that's covered by geletin doesn't seem very convincing to me.

 

 

So what you're saying is instead of eating yogurt, we should be getting yogurt enemas.  Sounds like a business opportunity to me! 

 

I think the idea, at least with the dairy based probiotics, is that the dairy reduces the effects of stomach acid and some amount of the microbes get through.  Whether or not that actually occurs is another question.

 

A certain amount of bacteria survives the low pH of the stomach - even in regular meals.  When babies are born, they are born with bacteria free guts - and then as they interact with the environment, and eat foods, breast milk, etc, bacteria finds its way into the colon, and develops into robust colonies - and apparently these colonies are relative to the diet that the person ingests. 

 

It's very interesting that certain people have different %s of the different strains of bacteria in their guts - some tend to have more of one kind than others, and studies have shown that this may be directly correlated with obesity, etc. 

 

I'm honestly not very convinced any of this is too terribly important, considering that something like 95% of all nutrients are absorbed in the small intestine - where bacteria exert little to no influence whatsoever.

 

Dairy aenemas would probably do the trick in establishing gut bacteria of those particular strains (maybe, depending on competition with pre-existing bacterial colonies) - but would also cause horrendous, epic...epic, diarrhea.

 

Another fun physiological fact:  something like 75%+ of feces is actually sloughed off dead bacteria!

Science guy that you are, you might like a blog called Cooling Inflammation. I can't remember the URL, but you will find it if you google that term. The author's career was mostly in researching gut bacteria and DNA sequencing.

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Has anyone read "Brain Maker"?  http://www.drperlmutter.com/about/brain-maker-by-david-perlmutter-md/

 

The author gives some specific suggestions as to the probiotics to take for anxiety and brain health.

 

No, have you read this?

 

I have. 

 

This book is - how do I put it nicely - not overly scientific, if you get my drift. The author is trying to simplify things for the average reader. He does touch on the subjects such as the one you mentioned "It's very interesting that certain people have different %s of the different strains of bacteria in their guts - some tend to have more of one kind than others, and studies have shown that this may be directly correlated with obesity, etc". And in the end he gives a suggestion of 5-6 strains of bacteria that he finds important to add to the diet for greater brain health, reduced anxiety and reducing obesity etc.

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Hi,

 

I am wondering if anyone has an opinion about pro-biotics interfering w/ drug metabolism/blood levels. I have severe GI illness and should be taking them, but everything I do differently seems to cause a problem. It's hard to sort out if it's a coincidence or not, because my symptoms are so unpredictable. Everyone wants me on pro-biotics. I take no supplements at all and my nutrition is very compromised.

 

Anyone have any opinions on this?

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Thanks, Karen.  Since our guts are lined with some of the same neuro-transmitters that are in our brain, I usually assume that anything that affects my gut affects my brain, so I don't think I have been imagining it when I felt more severe w/d symptoms soon after taking them.

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Hi savinggrace. When I jumped off Trazodone and was trying to relieve my GI issues caused by withdrawal I tried probiotics (Culturelle). I wasn't having any insomnia until I started taking it. After I stopped, the insomnia quickly resolved. I guess when you're in the thick of withdrawal it can hurt more than help. I'll try them again once I'm off everything for a while. Now I just eat yogurt with probiotics.

 

Marie

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I went on the GAPS diet....just bone broth and a little sauerkraut juice, because I can't tolerate any dairy.  After 4-5 days I started having shortness of breath and heart palpitations.  I had to go to the ER I was so scared.  I couldn't walk across the room w/o getting out of breath.  I got all checked out and they couldn't find anything wrong.  These symptoms came on quite suddenly when I started the GAPS diet.  I stopped the GAPS diet and the symptoms went away.

 

I know this sounds odd but nothing surprises me any more.  The link between gut health and brain health and our whole body is so strong,  I think the head-on approach to the GAPS diet (I saw a dietician before starting it) was just too much for me.

 

I then tried VSL probiotics: I started w/ 1/3 of a capsule.  I did this for a few days and wouldn't you know it? The same darn symptoms that I got from GAPS started again.  I connected the dots this time; no trip to the ER.  I stopped the VSL and the symptoms went away.

 

I am usually the exception to the rule.  That said, probiotics are very powerful.  The GAPS diet works wonders for many and I had high hopes.  This has all left me afraid to take probiotics of any kind, though I know the GAPS diet and VSL are both very powerful.

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I have been buying sauerkraut, Greek yogurt and kefir, which I can tolerate despite being sensitive to lactose. However, I am skeptical about commercial kefir and if it's really close to the real thing.

 

Thanks OP for mentioning Goodbelly. I never tried it because I thought they added too much sugar, but now it makes sense that the bacteria need it to stay alive. :)

 

I also enjoy homemade pickled cucumbers. The jar of fermented red cabbage with apples I got a while back is probably my favorite.

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I'm still holding at 25mg generic zoloft but these are things over the years that has helped my life-long gut/IBS issues:

 

-Limit dairy to only yogurt (and the occasional treat of cheese, though that usually makes me constipated)

-Drink enough (but in my case, not too much) fluids

-Avoid processed foods as much as possible (moderation works for me)

-Eat a plant strong diet (for the dietary fiber).

-If I eat meat or poultry, limit the portion size and make sure there's plenty of dietary fiber food sources with it (vegetables, beans, whole grains, etc)

-Exercise

-Over the counter Probiotic, one with a good scientifically research-based track record. I find that this has made a huge difference in my gut health. (Note: As a child and teen I was constantly on antibiotics)

-Mindfulness, meditation, CBT, coping skills, yoga, to help deal with anxiety.

-Eat slowly, take small bites of food, do not eat late at night near bedtime, etc.

-Do not eat when stressed (IMO I feel that I need to be relaxed for my digestive muscles to be relaxed, etc.)

 

One time recently my psychiatrist said that "you can have panic attacks in your stomach". I had never heard that before. But looking back, I had those almost every day of my childhood, teenage years, and 20's.

 

This all being said, when I was off the zoloft for 3 weeks this summer, my digestion and stomach issues were a mess. But I also tested positive for a rare (but thankfully not harmful) form of E coli. I was put on Protonix but was able to wean off of it, with SA's help, before it rebounded.

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A note of caution with probiotics. I had an allergic reaction to a probiotic in a supplement I bought trying to improve my gut health I read later that some people have allergic reactions to probiotics

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I am in the uk and I am looking for a good probiotic can anyone recommend a good brand , I have been on the Internet and there are so many , some of the brands that I have seen on this site can only be purchased in the USA , I would like to know what ones have been benificial and what haven't , before I start spending money , every probiotic company seems to tell you that their product is the best but we all know where that leads , spending money ! any feed back would be greatly received

Edited by KarenB
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Hi Terry4949,

 

Dr. Natasha Campbell-McBride, author of Gut and Psychology Syndrome, is from the UK and served with a team of doctors who formulated a probiotic called Bio Kult. You can order directly from the company in the UK at http://www.bio-kult.com/ My son has been using it for only a couple of weeks, so I can't give a testimonial yet, but I do have great faith in Dr. Campbell-McBride.

 

Siskin

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I took my first dose of a probiotic this morning (Solgar's Advanced 40+ Acidopholus).  I took one capsule with breakfast; the bottle recommended 1-2.

 

Results

Immediate but mild heartburn, lasting 1/2 hour.

Extreme fatigue lasting all day.

Sore ear from afternoon and into evening.

Anxiety (mild) on and off during day.

 

So I shall cease and desist.  It was not pro my biots at all :(.  Plan B:  Make saurekraut.  Plan C:  Learn to spell sourkraut.

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Hi Karen,

 

I am not sure how many brands/strains of pro-biotics I have tried, but I know I have several hundred dollars worth still in my fridge, coaxing my husband to use them, because they increased my w/d or GI symptoms. My husband has a batch of sauerkraut fermenting as we speak, but I am highly suspicious that I am histamine-intolerant, so I guess he will be enjoying that, and too. Have you explored histamine-intolerance? I ask because there are some strains of bacteria that are better than others (just read about it yesterday) for histamine intolerance, but also for everyone...what bacteria your body needs or will accept varies widely w/ your own micro-biome. It seems a tedious and costly task to find the right one. For now, I live with my leaky gut because I can't do yogurt either...sigh! Like everything, there is no one size fits all for pro-biotics. I'd love to hear about it if you find one that works for you, but from what i read sauerkraut juice is ideal. (The kraut is good too) Also homemade yogurt if you can do dairy, but I am likely speaking to th choir! Haven't read this whole thread yet.

 

Grace

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I have done much research through the years with a plethora of probiotics and am big into cultured foods (i.e. raw milk kefir, raw cheeses) and plan on culturing veggies next. Cultured/fermented foods are best and have been consumed for thousands of years, but not all can tolerate them for various reasons. I have also experimented with dozens of probiotic supplements since the early 80s, having almost died in the hospital with an acute C. diff infection caused by overuse of antibiotics. To me, gut health is A#1, the most important aspect of my health, affecting directly and indirectly everything from A-Z. The gut-brain axis, as it's now called, wasn't even considered 35 years ago, but I knew there was a link.  My early anxiety/panic attacks/depressions I strongly believe were all caused from a dysbiotic gut environment since they began soon after I got out hospital. We even have fecal transplantation now for otherwise resistant cases of C. diff and other incurable infections.

Thus, if there was only one supplement I could have, it would be a multi-strain probiotic.

 

The one I now use and recommend to friends and family for tough cases of histamine intolerance, autism, subclinical D-lactic acidosis which may be neurotoxic (caused by most commercially-available probiotics), etc. is a pure powdered product called GutPro. Only available online from limited sources and expensive, it works for me:

 

https://corganic.zendesk.com/hc/en-us/articles/208670146-Is-GutPro-good-for-histamine-intolerance-

http://www.mommypotamus.com/popular-probiotic-strain-may-induce-neurotoxicity/

http://www.corganic.com/gutpro

 

Hopefully, this will help some that are hypersensitive to most other D-lactate probiotics.

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Hey,

 

Thanks for this info on GutPro...I will look into it.  I have to see how it compares to VSL (also $100) bottle.  Actually NOTHING is too expensive if it would help repair my leaky gut.  I can't eat ANYTHING w/o pain.  Every GI symptom in the book, and my GI symptoms are good right now as I have been in a long-needed hold. 

 

I read your whole thread.  If it's worth anything to you, though I admired your tenacity with cutting 40% in 6 months, I know from experience it catches up with you.  I am currently holding 3 months after getting bed-ridden from trying to power through even micro-cuts.  It has taken 2 months for me to stabilize and I am taking another month (life reasons) and then will resume my taper.  My reasoning for accepting a long hold was this:  I had cut a little over 30% of a very heavy toxic load (for me) of 15 years.  Perhaps, I needed a long hold for my brain to work on re-modeling in the middle of my taper, instead of trying to "power through" to the end (wasn't gonna happen)  I think I will be ready, and hopefully my brain will be too for some more tapering.  I know there are tons of risks here, but having looked at it from all angles, and not being able to make any progress, I decided to give my brain/body a much-needed break (I have slept for 3 nights better than I have in a couple years) now, and get stronger for more work ahead.

 

thanks again for sharing...I have some research ahead of me.  I agree...gut-health is everything...and my gut is SICK!

 

Grace

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Thank you Grace and rxhell for adding some valuable info there.  I can't afford to sample different things right now, but am not feeling too worried about that, as it seems sauerkraut is a good option - it seems like it ought to be gentler than a probiotic pill. 

 

I do eat home-made yogurt, miso and and raw cacao in order to have a little something fermented with each meal.  I can have small amounts of kombucha, but I'm thinking water kefir might suit me better.  I find kombucha so yummy - I really crave it - but it's also very intense.

 

I seem to be a little better after yesterdays awful day - boy that one pill really slammed me. 

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So, Karen, are you thinking I would just be wasting another $100? The thing is, I feel so bad most of the time I get skittish and quit things awfully fast...it is soooo hard to try to heal my gut w/o ferments or supplements. I just try to keep my carb load down, but after two decades of sinus infections, antibiotics and 3 surgeries, I am sure my gut is a huge part of my problem....and now this histamine issue, which I have every reason to believe applies to me. My list of safe foods is empty now. skipping lots of meals these days though my weight has stopped dropping.

 

Oh, kombucha....I have tasted it...I would live on it.

 

Sauerkraut juice is the gentlest way to go, I think. Homemade is quite delicious.

 

Grace

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Never heard of water kefir but I guess it is a moot point as it is a ferment as well?

 

Grace

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No, I didn't mean to imply it would be wasted.  I was thinking of my own situation which is not as bad as yours - and so I don't feel so bad about skipping past some of the more expensive possibilities.

 

Does sauerkraut give you any issues? 

 

I suspect I don't have a proper grasp on your situation, but my instinct would be to not keep trying probiotic pills if they are generally causing you problems.  With the possible exception of GutPro suggested by rxhell, because she's obviously seen it be okay with other very sensitive people.  Perhaps you can check out it's properties and see how it compares to the ones in your fridge. 

 

I've used both milk keffir and water keffir.  It is a fermented drink, made with keffir 'grains'.  They look like tiny bits of cauliflower, or as my kids say, brains!  The water one goes slightly fizzy, and you can make it ginger flavoured, or fruit - whatever seems nice.  Once you get some grains from somebody you will always have your own supply, as they grow. 

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Well, if I decide to try it, and it doesn't work out, I'll just send the rest to you to try. :) My husband is teeming with good bacteria! He doesn't want any more! I don't really have money to burn so I am cautious w/ supplements, w/d issues aside.

 

I have mold allwrgies and histamine issues so I don't even try the sauerkraut anymore. Oh, how I used to love Reuben sandwiches w/ sauerkraut. Can't even imagine eating anything so delicious again! Swiss cheese, corned beef and kraut on pumpernickel...oh my!

 

Grace

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Hi Karen,

I am not sure how many brands/strains of pro-biotics I have tried, but I know I have several hundred dollars worth still in my fridge, coaxing my husband to use them, because they increased my w/d or GI symptoms. My husband has a batch of sauerkraut fermenting as we speak, but I am highly suspicious that I am histamine-intolerant, so I guess he will be enjoying that, and too. Have you explored histamine-intolerance? I ask because there are some strains of bacteria that are better than others (just read about it yesterday) for histamine intolerance, but also for everyone...what bacteria your body needs or will accept varies widely w/ your own micro-biome. It seems a tedious and costly task to find the right one. For now, I live with my leaky gut because I can't do yogurt either...sigh! Like everything, there is no one size fits all for pro-biotics. I'd love to hear about it if you find one that works for you, but from what i read sauerkraut juice is ideal. (The kraut is good too) Also homemade yogurt if you can do dairy, but I am likely speaking to th choir! Haven't read this whole thread yet.

Grace

Hey grace, maybe check out colostrum for your leaky gut?

https://www.sott.net/article/301278-How-Colostrum-can-help-heal-leaky-gut-syndrome

 

I got some on amazon.uk, immune tree brand. I'm hoping it clears up my stomach issues. I'm also doing some probiotics too that a nutritionist put me on, but they don't seem to be doing any good, making my stomach worse. So just going to finish the course and then keep up with the colostrum.

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