TNTD: Wellbutrin: cold turkey due to debilitating side effect

[scallywag]

For now you can assume that what you're experiencing -- the symptoms that are grouped together and called "depression" -- are part of withdrawal. It's your brain and central nervous system adjusting to new, lower levels of the substances they'd adapted to.  Moving away from family and friends has added incentive to isolating; you're in the best position to guess whether that would have been the same "back home."

 

If you find any research about how symptoms wax and wane similarly across individuals so that a conclusion can be drawn, please share it. As far as I know, very little research is done into psych drug withdrawal.

[tntd]

Thank you for the info on "depression". I do find that my Alpha-Stim helps with the depression so I just need to remember to use it when those feelings come on. I'm also thinking that since I have increased my clonazepam it is decreasing the anxiety enough that I am able to feel some other emotions. It would be nice to have the anxiety go low enough that I could leave the house though!! I'm sure that will happen with time. I'm sure the timeline is different for everyone too.

 

Wouldn't it be nice if we had a nice timeline to look at and say, well this symptom will last this long, and that symptom will last that long, awww the relief!!

 

I'll have to look and see if I can find any info on the waxing and waning of symptoms but I fear you are right and there will be very little information to find. 

[tntd]

Well, I was having a bad day and then in the middle it got good and now we are back to pretty intense anxiety. Gotta love the rollercoaster ride!!

 

I was hoping I would feel better for a little longer but I'm grateful for any break in the symptoms. Though I did have a headache while the anxiety was less. Come to think of it that happens a lot. When my anxiety reduces or my mood swings stop my head starts to hurt. Interesting. 

 

Anyway, I was able to go for a walk around the block last night and I'm hoping that I will be able to again tonight but I'm not sure as the anxiety is increasing quite a bit. 

 

My husband is out doing the grocery shopping for us. He is my superhero. I don't know what I would do without him. 

[tntd]

Well, I didn't end up taking a walk around the block last night. My anxiety got really bad. I did sit in the backyard for awhile though, with my bare feet in the grass. That helped calm me a little.

 

My husband had gotten the movie Zootopia so we watched that. Cute movie and it helped bring the anxiety down a bit too, along with doing some CES.

 

Late last night we had a pretty big storm and I ended up with a horrible headache along with nausea. A number of old injuries started to cause a great deal of pain as well. I usually love storms but I'm starting not to like them so much at the moment!!

 

Today has been really rough. I think it always seems worse after feeling a little better, even if it is just a little better and just for a short time. All I did this morning was cry. Just couldn't get any motivation to do anything. I did manage to brush my teeth. My daughter sat and watched a comedy with me until she had to get ready for work and my husband went out and finished the grocery shopping. Now my anxiety is starting to come back. That and I can't seem to kick the fatigue, at least during the day. At night I often feel wide awake. I did find out that Vitamin C can be stimulating so I am making sure to take it earlier in the day and that has seemed to help the past couple of nights.

 

I have been slowly increasing my fish oils after reading the thread on fish oils. Yesterday I increased from 1500mg to 1800mg. I'm hoping that didn't have anything to do with my being down all morning. I am planning on holding at this amount for a week. Has anyone had that reaction to fish oils?

 

Most of the threads and posts are about SS/SNRI's difficulties. I do see that a lot of people have take Wellbutrin but not that a lot have had issues. Does anyone know if Wellbutrin Cold Turkey follows the same trajectory of SS/SNRI taper or cold turkey? 

 

I count myself lucky that I have had some dirty windows. Is that normal for this early in the withdrawal, does it mean anything?

 

Sorry for all of the questions. I get that way when I'm feeling down or icky. 

[scallywag]

tndt: Sad to say withdrawal symptoms don't discriminate based on type of drug, dose taken or method of discontinuation.  There are members here having moderate to intense symptoms as they taper Wellbutrin (bupropion) or after having jumped quickly to 0 mg.

 

I can't answer your question about the Omega 3s (fish oil). Your emotional change could be completely coincidental with your increase in omega-3. Only way I can think of to assess this is to stay at 1800 mg for several more days and see if the "feeling down" resolves.  If not, go back to 1500 mg and observe.

 

Windows, even dirty ones , are a sign that your CNS is restoring itself appropriately to the tapered doses and are part of withdrawal. My last waves occurred as I was skipping doses in April; I've been having a window since re-establishing a daily dose. I'm only taking one psych drug; my meds history is very simple. Trying to infer anything from the existence of windows is a craps shoot. Who knows what will happen later on? Time will tell.

[tntd]

Hey Scallywag,

 

I think I'm just trying to grasp at straws. Hoping that this won't last much longer. 

 

I'm having a really bad wave right now, not depression today so I don't think the fish oils caused that. I'm still going to hold with the 1800mg for at least a week to make sure.

 

Today I'm so anxious that I'm even having trouble focusing on the computer. I keep crying too. I've been trying to use acceptance and mindfullness but nothing much is helping. 

 

 

Windows, even dirty ones , are a sign that your CNS is restoring itself appropriately to the tapered doses and are part of withdrawal. My last waves occurred as I was skipping doses in April; I've been having a window since re-establishing a daily dose. I'm only taking one psych drug; my meds history is very simple. Trying to infer anything from the existence of windows is a craps shoot. Who knows what will happen later on? Time will tell.

I'm glad that you are having a window since re-establishing a daily dose. I'm on day 27 of my cold turkey so I'm hoping that the windows imply that my CNS is just restoring itself. Though the past couple of days I haven't even had my evening respite. It is making this wave extra hard. 

 

My daughter has an ultrasound appointment later today. She has been having some really bad pelvic pain and I think that is adding to the anxiety and my highly sensitive nervous system has grabbed a hold and is taking me for a ride    . I'm really worried about her.

 

I hope your window continues, especially as you continue your taper down. 

 

Wishing you health, healing, and peace.

 

Thanks for all you do.

[tntd]

Well, I think I spoke too soon. My anxiety turned into a really bad "depression" with all that entails. Crying and thinking I don't want to be here and all. It started around 2:00 this afternoon. Unfortunately with the depression there is no relief in the evenings like I get with the anxiety. This is almost as bad as it was when I went to the hospital and they admitted me back in January. I'm not sure how to handle it. Trying acceptance, watching funny movies, letting myself cry......this is really hard and I don't know how to help myself or what else to do.

[tntd]

Why is it that every night I think about the things I plan on doing the next day, like exercising, or getting outside, looking at volunteering and then the next morning I'm so anxious again that all of those things go out the window. 

 

I know I need to exercise, I know it would make me feel better but I just can't seem to make myself do it, and I'm someone who used to exercise every morning and then take the dog for a bike ride so she could get her exercise too. I would be outside weeding in the garden, always doing something. Now I have a hard time even taking the my precious dog to the back yard so she can go to the bathroom. 

 

Should I push myself to do something, at least exercise anyway? Would that help me?

 

29th day of my cold turkey off of Buproprion. So tired.

[tntd]

Actually 28th day of my cold turkey.

 

I did manage to exercise gently for 30 minutes. Not sure if it did anything. My anxiety is sky high and I'm really restless. I tend to sit on the couch and rock back and forth, or in front of the computer and bounce my legs. The computer helps to distract me from my anxiety. Not sure why it is so bad today, unless the exercise was too much. 

 

Wish there was something I could do to mitigate this symptom. I would like to be able to do something other than sit in front of the computer all day just to stay sane.

[Mjau]

Hi tntd!

I've been on Wellbutrin and also experienced a lot of fatigue as a withdrawal symptom. Two years ago I dropped the dose from 300 to 150 mg. A month after that I had some serious fatigue. As far as I can recall I reached some kind of stability 5 months later. I'm still on an SSRI and I'm having a lot of side effects+withdrawal symptoms from that and still have a long road to go.

But what I want to emphasize is: the Wellbutrin-fatigue clearly got better with time! 

Funny about the akathisia though - as I understand you had akathisia as a side effect, for me it was the other way around - a withdrawal symptom. Right now I don't have akathisia but I've had bouts of it when tapering SSRI as well.

Do you drink coffee? If you do, I suggest you CT coffee, it can make akathisia worse. 

[tntd]

Hi Mjau,

 

Thanks for the encouragement about the fatigue. The fatigue is really hard to deal with because the anxiety won't let me rest during the day. So I'm wired and tired.

 

Sorry to hear you have had Akathisia as well. I hope you don't end up with it again, it's pretty bad stuff.

 

These AD's are rough. Are the side effects you're having the reason that you are tapering from yours?

 

I don't drink coffee regularly, fortunately. One less drug I have to suffer withdrawals from!! I quit drinking it when I was on Wellbutrin as the two did not go well together for me.

 

I'm very frustrated that I ended with side effects or withdrawal from Wellbutrin at all. I took it about 12 years ago, no side effects, and CT'd it back then without any problems. 

 

I hope that you are able to stabalize comfortably during your tapering so that you are able to have some enjoyable days.

[tntd]

Things just seem to be getting worse. My morning anxiety surges are back. I have extreme anxiety from the moment I wake until I go to bed at night. The surges started earlier this week but were really bad this morning. They started about 4:20 this morning. I took a glycine, suntheanine and vit c and was able to get a little more sleep but was still waking with adrenaline surges.

 

I'm thinking about meds and if there is anything that will help me get through the worst of this as I am non-functional and the suicidal ideation is really bad. I would rather add something to keep me alive than try to get through this than find that I can't. Thing is I don't want to have to go off another drug. Unfortunately my pdoc is on vacation and I have yet to meet another doc that I would want to work with on this. 

 

If I call the crisis line they are just going to tell me to go to the hospital. I don't know, maybe that would be the best option right now. 

 

I feel so trapped and confused and scared. I just don't know what to do. I can see why they say not to go cold turkey. I wish I had had a choice.

 

Sorry, I know this is hard to read. 

[scallywag]

tndt: Sorry this wave is big and bouncing you around so hard. You've had a few windows in the last week; it's too bad no windows are breaking through now for a little relief.

 

Are you still using the Alpha-stim? If so, how are your symptoms during and after?

 

Is your medication routine still as follows:

 

6:00 am L-theanine, L-glycine, L-Lysine

 

7 - 7:30 am Buspar 10 mg + Fexofenidine (allergies) +  clonazepam 0.5 mg

 

11:00 am L-theanine, L-glycine

 

2:30 - 4:30 pm   Buspar 10 mg

 

4 - 4:30 pm   L-theanine, L-glycine

 

10-10:30 pm   Buspar 30 mg and Clonazepam 0.75 mg

[Mjau]

Sorry to hear you're feeling so bad, tntd! It's really rough when things are going in the wrong direction. Is it the akathisia as well as anxiety you are having trouble with? 

 

One thing that helped me a little when I had akathisia was stretching and doing some light yoga exercise. I've had restless legs as well which feels kind of like akathisia in the leg. Sometimes I've showered cold water over my leg, that has also helped. I know for some people a warm bath or shower is more helpful than cold, everybody is different of course, but these are a couple of suggestions I have. 

 

And yes, the side effects are definitely the reason for why I'm tapering.

 

I hope you find some relief soon!!

[tntd]

Hi Scallywag,

 

Thanks,

 

Yes, that is pretty accurate. I have added Vit C 1000 mg sustained release on June 11. I try to take it about every twelve hours as it is a twelve hour release supplement. I ususally take it at 8:30 am & pm.

 

I also increased my fish oils. I have been increasing by 300mg per week and this past week starting on June 25th I increased to 1800 EPA+DHA total. I also added Vit E 400 IU on June 25

 

So:

 

             8:30am & pm Vit C 1000 mg sustained release (Started June 11)

 

             10:30am Fish oil 600mg EPA+DHA & Vit E 400 IU (Started Vit E on June 25)

 

             5:00 - 6:00 pm Fish Oil 600mg EPA+DHA   

 

             9:30pm Fish Oil 600mg EPA+DHA (Increased to 600 from 300 on June 25)

 

The fish oil is not new but I had only been taking 1200mg EPA+DHA previously and only the 10 IU of vit E that was in the supplement.

 

I am still using the CES and I tend to feel a little better, sometimes the anxiety completely receeds, while I am using it but the anxiety promptly returns. It didn't used to return in the evening but has the past couple of days. I have been using it twice a day but the anxiety was remaining recently so I added another hour starting June 27.

 

I also started menstruating on June 27 so a drop in progesterone is in there too.

 

I take a supplement called Respir-all for allergies instead of the fexofenidine. I have been taking it for years but thought that the licorice in it might be causing problems so I tried the fexofenidine for a few days but went back to the respir-all because I felt better overall with it. This was back on June 6th. 

[tntd]

Hi Mjau,

 

Thanks for your comments. It is really bad when they go the wrong way. 

 

For me it is mostly extreme anxiety. I feel "frozen" as Wellness put it. I have a hard time making myself do anything. There are times when I feel mildly restless and feel the need to rock back and forth or move in some way but it is mild compared to what I experienced with the severe akathisia so I'm not sure what to call it. 

 

Thanks for the suggestions on what to do to help. I have been telling myself everyday that I am going to do some Yoga, or exercise. So I did some gentle exercising yesterday and my anxiety went through the roof. 

 

Do you have any specific light yoga exercises that you would suggest?

 

Thank you again and I hope that your taper helps you find relief as well. 

[Altostrata]

I have been working with Wellness in the benzo forum. She has been sooooo much help. Sorry I guess I shouldn't assume Wellness is a she Doesn't matter to me, the help has been wonderful.

 

I was hoping that I would feel pretty good today because I had taken my regular dose of .75mg clonazepam at bedtime and then took .5mg clonazepam when I got up. Instead I had waking anxiety surges and even after I took the .5mg clonazepam I was extremely anxious. Not as bad as I am without it but not good enough to do much of anything. I'm thinking it has to do with the fact that I'm in the second half of my cycle making things a little worse, combined with peri-menopause too, sooooo. 

 

I have been reading a lot on the forum today. I went through what is withdrawal, waves and windows, and something else. There is so much good information in here it will take a long time to get through. Hopefully I'll retain what I need for when I see my pdoc again. I have been trying to write stuff down as he will usually read stuff I bring to him.

 

I also read the CES thread that JanCarol provided the link to. That was interesting and after reading it I reduced my usage of the Alpha-Stim AID. It didn't seem to make much difference one way or the other so I decided to call the company and talk to someone about how to use it during withdrawal. It turns out they actually have a Doctor on staff and he called me back today. He works with an addictionologist who uses the Alpha-Stim to help people withdraw from drugs/medications. He said the way the addictionologist tells his patients to use it is first thing in the morning and then if there is anxiety during the day you can use it again as often as needed, even to the point of using it all day. I don't think I would do that but I did use it twice yesterday and while I am using it the anxiety does decrease, it just doesn't last much past that. 

 

I have noticed that my anxiety often decreases during the evening. It seems to start happening somewhere between 5:00 and 9:00pm. Occasionally it lasts until I go to bed but usually there is a decrease. In fact on Wednesday I felt pretty much normal from about 5:00 on. So are these windows or are they the cortisol reducing in the evening?

 

I'm very grateful for all the people on this site and their willingness to share their stories. I'm so grateful to Alto and all the moderators for all the work they do helping us to cope with this challenge in our lives. I hope that everyone is healing and hopeful. Hugs

 

tndt, "depression" is a common side effect of benzos. Another common side effect is rebound anxiety when a dose wears off. You may well be experiencing rebound anxiety in the morning from the previous evening's benzo dose. Please work with Wellness to even your benzo dosing out.

 

Most likely, you are physiologically dependent on the benzo now. Please be prepared to taper it later.

 

Please keep daily notes of your symptoms -- when those anxiety surges happen and how long they last, for example, when you take your drugs, and their dosages. This will help us sort out adverse effects.

 

How much magnesium glycinate are you taking each day? Opening a capsule and putting the powder in cold water, and sipping it throughout the day, can help reduce anxiety.

 

Also, please be careful with CoQ10, it can be activating -- cause anxiety.

[tntd]

Hi Alto,

 

Thanks for the info. I hadn't considered the rebound anxiety as the dose wears off. Wellness and I have been working on trying to even things out for me. Right now we have me on two doses a day. I space them 12 hours apart. Clonazepam is supposed to have a 8-12 hour window where it works, unless you have reached tolerance and then that window can be shorter. I know I am physiologically dependent on the benzo I'm planning on doing a liquid taper once I get through the Wellbutrin withdrawal.

 

Your thought that I am having rebound anxiety and that being added to my buproprion c/t anxiety, I'm not sure what to do. How will I know when I am through the withdrawal if the benzo is adding to my symptoms? I'm so tempted to see about adding an antidepressant to stabilize and then taper from that. I don't even know if that would work. I just really don't have a life right now and that is really hard. 

 

I actually take magnesium glycinate at bed about 133mg. But I take Glycine 3X a day. My husband bought some Magnesium Calm to put in water and I tried that yesterday. I started really small since I already take quite a bit of magnesium and I have for years due to my anxiety issues. It has helped keep me off meds until the beginning of this year. Should I also add the glycine to the water and sip that through out the day?

 

The anxiety surges stopped when I increased my clonazepam but now they have started again. I have them in the morning, this morning starting about 4:20. I am able to doze off and on with these surges so I have never paid attention to how long they last. 

 

This morning I changed the time I took my clonazepam and that seemed to help with the daytime anxiety for a few hours. It made me really sleepy though and when I tried to take a nap the surges started again. 

 

My doctor has suggested clonidine for the anxiety and thinks the withdrawal will probably last a least a few months. He did clarify that there was no way for him to know and that was just a guess. 

 

I have been taking CoQ10 for years. Would it cause anxiety if my body is already used to it?

 

Also my pdoc had a nueruologist friend who would recommend CoQ10 for glutamate toxicity, or an overactive CNS. I haven't played with my dosage but it was a thought. I will re-read the CoQ10 thread before making any decisions. Right now I am working on increasing my fish oil. I increased it from 1200mg EPA+DHA to 1800mg on June 25. According to my medication and side effects journal I started experiencing increased anxiety along with depression swings about that time. It also coincided with my monthly cycle though so I don't know if it means anything. 

 

Today is my 29th day after cold turkeying off of buproprion.

 

I can't thank you enough for all your help Alto. Your knowledge is amazing and so helpful. 

[Altostrata]

I have been taking CoQ10 for years. Would it cause anxiety if my body is already used to it?

 

 

That is not a problem if your body is acclimated to it.

 

We need your daily symptom pattern, when you take your drugs, and their dosages over several days to determine if you are having benzo rebound.

 

[clonazepam] made me really sleepy though and when I tried to take a nap the surges started again.

 

 

That would be a paradoxical reaction.

 

Yes, when people are taking benzos, that complicates recovery from withdrawal syndrome quite a bit.

 

133mg magnesium is not a lot. Calm is a good product. If you take too much, you will have loose bowels.

 

I would be careful about adding any more drugs. If you are having a paradoxical reaction to clonazepam, adding another "brake" can make it worse.

 

We need that symptom pattern.

[tntd]

Hi Alto,

 

For the symptom pattern do you want for example a whole day of what I take, when, and how I feel? Or do you just want the benzo symptom pattern?

 

If I have gone paradoxical with the benzo, how do I know if/when I'm through the buproprion withdrawal?

 

Thanks for your help with this.

[Altostrata]

No, ALL the drugs and ALL the symptoms for 24 hours per day.

 

A drug reaction will emerge at the same time each day (x hours after you take the drug).

[scallywag]

tndt: Here's a format for doses and symptoms that works in a post:

7:00 am woke up, lower cortisol surge than yesterday

7:30 am 3.75 Lexapro (liquid) with breakfast, took vitamins D, 250 mg C, 1000 mg Lysine

10:00 am heart palpitations

12:30 pm lunch, took other 250 mg C

5:00 pm dizziness when I stood up after sitting

6:30 pm dinner

etc.

 

I've already posted an approximate dosing schedule you can copy and paste that into a new post, correct what's wrong and add symptoms and times.

[tntd]

Thanks scallywag. I'll have to grab my journal and work on this.

[tntd]

Hi Alto,

 

Thanks for looking at my regimine for me.

 

 

4:30 am L-theanine 200mg, L-glycine 500mg, L-Lysine 500mg.  Go back to sleep

 

7:00 am Buspar 10 mg +  clonazepam 0.5 mg, 15 min meditation. Go back to sleep, started having anxiety surges around 8:30 - 9:00 This is variable in the mornings. 

 

9:30 Got up, having medium levels of anxiety. Still very tired. 

 

10:00 ate breakfast, sometimes get nauseaus, took Vitamins: Vit C1000 mg 12 hour sustained release, Calcium/magnesium 600/300mg, Glucosamine, Chondrotine, MSM, Acetyl-l-Carnitine 500mg, Magnesium Malate150mg, Vitamin E 400 IU, Fish oil 600mg EPA+DHA, Plant Enzymes, Vitamin D-3 w/ K-2 3000/135, astaxanthin 4mg, Respir-all (http://www.swansonvitamins.com/now-foods-respir-all-60-tabs), D-3 2000 IU, CoQ10 100mg.    Anxiety increased.  Agoraphobic. Keep curtains closed as the light and activity makes me anxious.

 

11:00 am CES (Alpha-Stim AID Level 1, 1 Hour) Anxeity decreased while using increased when stopped. Tired

 

12:50 L-Glycine 500 mg, L-theanine 200mg (suntheanine) Still having high anxiety and feel very tired. This can vary sometimes I am depressed and crying but usually I'm anxious. Occasionally will get mood swings. Tired

 

1:30-1:45 eat lunch. Often have a weird stomach afterwards. Tired 

 

2:30 -3:00 pm   Buspar 10 mg  Usually get dizzy about 30 - 45 minutes later. Food helps to mitigate this symptom. So I often have a small snack about 30 minutes after taking. Tired

 

5:00 pm   L-theanine 200mg, L-glycine 500mg Variable levels of anxiety sometimes mixed with "depression" Start getting my evening headache. Start "waking up"

 

6:00 pm dinner, took vitmains: Plant enzymes, Iron (prescribed), Glucosamine/Chondrotin/MSM, Probiotics, Fish Oil 600mg EPA+DHA, Folate, Co-Enzyme B Complex (Now brand), Ultra C 500mg, Usually start feeling pretty good after dinner but not recently. Anxiety/depression issues in the evening for about a week now.

 

7:00-8:00pm CES (Alpha Stim) 1 hour Usually feel less anxious while I'm using. It varies as to how I feel afterwards. Usually better but recently not always.

 

8:30 pm Vit C1000mg sustained Release

 

9:30 Bedtime vitamins: Remifemin (Black Cohosh) 20mg, Milk Thistle 250 mg, Cranberry 40mg, Manesium Glycinate 133mg, Magnesium Orotate 40mg, Magnesium Malate 150mg, Fish Oil 600 mg EPA+DHA. Usually feeling good but the past week have still been very anxious in the evenings and occasionally "depressed".

 

10-10:30 pm   Buspar 30 mg and Clonazepam 0.75 mg. Aspirin 81 mg Often feel almost happy by the time we go to bed. (Before the meds kick in.)

 

Usually wide awake and don't go to sleep until the meds kick in. 

 

Sometimes have a tight chest. Don't really know how to describe it, it's unlike anything I've experienced in the past. I have various physical pains at different times throughout the day. 

 

 

I decided to try something different yesterday and today and I waited to take my .5mg clonazepam until 9:50am. Around 11:00am my anxiety reduces somewhat but then around 1:00pm it comes back. 

 

Today:

4:30 L-Glycine, L-Lysine, L-Theanine

6:30 Buspar 10mg Vit C 1000mg sustained release

7:50 Anxiety surges started

8:50 Low level anxiety quickly amps into high level anxiety

9:47 Clonazepam .5mg had very high anxiety with surges previous to taking. 

10:40 Anxiety decreased, fatigue increased.

12:25 Major upswing in anxiety level, still very tired. Also developed headache, nausea, restlessness, rocking back and forth, bouncing legs, and chest pain. Feeling the need to cry.

 

All other vitamins and supplements remained the same.

 

I have been increasing my fish oil from 1200mg EPA+DHA to its current level of 1800 EPA+DHA with a week in between each increase. The last increase was on June 25 which is also the day I started taking Vit E.

 

Vitamins in Red are the only new ones I have started taking. All others have been in use for a long time. The amino acids were started shortly before I went cold turkey off of buproprion.

 

Sorry this is so long. I hope it is clear enough. Please let me know if you have any questions.

 

Thank you sooooo much. 

Edited July 1, 2016 by scallywag
added aspirin as noted in post below

[tntd]

I forgot, I also take 81mg of Aspirin at 10:30.

 

Things got better today. I was able to take my dog for a walk and after the upswing in anxiety it went down again around 3:00. I even went out to the library. First time I have left the house by choice in 30 days!! My evening has been mostly anxiety free. Not sure why the change. Hormones?

 

Thank you again. 

[scallywag]

tndt:  Good to hear of your adventures!  I'm sure the dog was happy.

 

Great job on tracking your doses and symptoms.  I've added the 81 mg aspirin. I assumed that you take at 10:30 pm or 22:30.

[tntd]

Thanks Scallywag,

 

Yes, she was very happy, my daughter even made that comment when we got back.

 

I've been meaning to tell you that I absolutely love your avatar.

 

Thanks, I've been trying to make sure I'm on top of the doses and symptoms and it was really interesting looking back over them and the variability that occurs with the symptoms. I'm really glad that Alto tells everyone to track them. 

 

Yep, 22:30 is the correct time for the aspirin. 

 

I really wish I knew when the anxiety would let up. That has been my worst symptom so far. It happens the most anyway and it is always intense. Of course I wouldn't want "depression" in its place because that one is actually harder for me to deal with. Not as much practice I guess. 

 

I've probably asked this before of you or someone else but would I be correct in assuming that when I have those evenings where I pretty much feel normal that when my brain is finally healed that is what it will be like?

 

I'm getting so I dread going to bed because I know the anxiety will be there to greet me in the morning. Changing the clonazepam to about 1000 has helped with that but I get pretty anxious before 1000 and then the wait time for it to give me a bit of relief. At least it gives me some relief, I'm so grateful for that!! 

 

I did a bunch of reading on Taurine and Inositol. Do you have any experience with either of these? I'm not sure I'm ready to try anything new but I do actually have these in the house as other people use them. 

 

Tomorrow, if I follow my schedule, I am supposed to increase my fish oil by 300mg. I've just read that for a lot of peoplel Fish Oil can cause depression and/or anxiety. I've been taking it for years but when I increased by 300 this last week I did have an increase in depression for awhile and then the anxiety got really bad. Maybe I need to reduce the fish oils? Sigh. I think I'll have to go over my journal with my husband and get his thoughts on it too. http://mentalhealthdaily.com/2015/03/20/fish-oil-causing-depression-or-anxiety-consider-acetylcholine/The blog underneath the article is quite interesting too, with all of the people who were negatively affected by the fish oil.

 

I hope you are having a great day. Thanks for looking over my stuff. Any suggestions or thoughts are greatly appreciated as my own cognition is not as good as it used to be currently. I will get it back though

 

Thanks again.

[AliG]

Tntd.  A couple of things jumped out at me after reading your latest posts with your daily schedule  : drugs & supplements. I won't touch on the drugs as Wellness & Alto have been helping you with evening this out , but I'm concerned at the number of supplements that you are taking and the possible interactions and effects that you might be getting from them .

 

You're taking a lot of supplements and I'm just not quite sure how you would be able to ascertain at this stage ,what is helpful and what is not . You are taking a B complex which can often be too stimulating in withdrawal as well as increasing your fish oil which can sometimes be troublesome as well. You said your anxiety had been increasing after taking it and yet still considering upping it.

Also , you're using CES  which you say can make anxiety worse at times and you have also increased this, as well.

 

I understand the tendency in W/D to throw a lot of supplements at it , and hope that something works and I did it myself at one point but unfortunately as I came to see, it becomes almost impossible to " tease " out what supplement is having what effect at what time  and I was off all drugs at the time. If you throw them into the mix as well , as is the case with you , then to my way of thinking it just becomes one giant chemistry experiment . 

 

I cut my supplements down to the bare minimum , with Magnesium being the main player. I'm not saying that you necessarily should do that , but just please be aware of the pitfalls of multi - supplementing. It can at times be counter - productive and so confusing, not to mention time consuming and expensive.

 

It was just a thought worth exploring and thinking about as I feel I have been down this road before, too. Something to watch and perhaps think about.

 

Ali

[tntd]

Hi Ali,

 

Thank you for thoughts on this. I have been wondering about all the supplements myself. I have been taking most of them for years for different ailments. I have asked about them and so far the consensus I have gotten is that if you were already taking them before you went into withdrawal it should be ok. Did you have a different experience? It looks like you may have been taking supplements before you cold turkeyd and it helped you to cut most of them out?

 

The CES has always helped with the anxiety it just doesn't seem to last past using it. I only use it twice a day where I was using it three times a day. Sorry if that wasn't clear. 

 

The fish oils I have stopped upping because I am unsure if they are helping or hurting at this point so I definitely agree with you on that. I'm actually just holding and debating what to do at this point. 

 

Right now anything I do I do only one thing at a time and then hold with it for at least a week.

 

I appreciate your concern for me. I have been asking some of the same questions. I do find magnesium helpful as well.

 

How are you doing with your withdrawal? I see you cold turkeyd every time. That has to have been hard. I hope that things are improving for you. I have to say, that is one of the things that really scares me is that I had to cold turkey off my med. It makes everything so uncertain.

 

Thanks again and I hope you have a good weekend.

[tntd]

Thursday was a good day as I had mentioned but Friday I ended up having extreme anxiety again and couldn't get myself to go for a walk. Did I do too much on Thursday. My anxiety was starting to go up shortly before we headed home on Thursday. I'm still struggling with hypersensitivities and trying to learn my limits with that.  The hypersensitivity is so confining. 

 

How do we know how much to do when we are feeling ok? I didn't think I was pushing too much but my set back the next day, and so far today, seems to say maybe it was too much?

[JanCarol]

Hey tndt, 

 

It looks like you are getting excellent suggestions from Alto, Ali, Scally and Wellness. 

 

I'll try and read between the lines and find questions that I think haven't been answered.  I have quite a few notes, so this will take a few posts, but I hope I can find some things that help you.  

 

First - Ali said you were on B vitamins?  They can be very activating - even if you did take them before withdrawal.  Additionally, if they are in a compound (B-Complex) the ratios of B1 - B3 - B5 - B6 - B12 - may not be the ratios you need.  I am an advocate for anyone who has symptoms to quit their B complex, and when they feel better, try adding them back ONE at a time....

 

You wrote:

I did take the .25mg clonazepam after I left my appointment and I actually had a really good rest of the day. There were anxiety surges but I was mostly anxiety free the rest of the day. This morining I used a sleep mask and was able to sleep in with less of the anxiety break throughs but the anxiety went way up once I was up and doing things so I took .25mg of clonazepam at about 8:30 this morning. I have been experiencing break through anxiety, or spikes, periodically. Unfortunately I am now experiencing depression as well. They swing back and forth currently. The dreary day outside doesn't help I'm sure. Not having any friends in the area is also a problem. 

 

I agree with Alto, this sounds like interdose withdrawal, or rebound anxiety.   I know you are under Wellness' care in the benzo forum, but is she satisfied that you are getting 24 hour coverage with your dosing of clonazepam?  

 

Please be extremely careful increasing your benzo with symptoms.  Try and hold at the same level of benzo, always.  It will still mediate some of the SSRI withdrawal symptoms, but if you keep increasing the dose, you run the risk of an extended taper there, too.  But Wellness has probably given you a good education about it - she's good that way (yep, she's a she!)

 

You wrote:

I have been using many of the techniques like deep breathing and mindfulness. They seem to last only as long as I am using them. This anxiety is unlike my normal anxiety and about the only thing I can do to escape it is to distract myself with surfing the internet or some other brain absorbing activity.

 

Sometimes the techniques aren't as effective for the big bad symptoms - but look at it this way - WHILE you were DOING them, you were FREE, so - you know you can get a BREAK sometimes, by doing a technique.  This is awesome news, and points to the possibility of Windows coming your way.

 

And, in fact, you have started to have windows, which is an excellent sign at just over 30 days off Wellbutrin.

 

You asked:

 We also had a really bad thunderstorm last night that gave me a headache, vertigo, and body aches. Could that be a trigger? 

 

On this one, I can only comment on my personal experience and what others have said.  I have found that changes in pressure, especially to low pressure zones (foul weather) is more difficult on symptoms, especially mood symptoms, but also pain, too.

 

Additionally, some people can tie their symptoms in to Geomagnetic storms.  I haven't tracked my symptoms this way, but if I go through a period, where it seems like a lot of my friends are suffering, I check this site to see if there are any geomagnetic storms about.  

http://www.tesis.lebedev.ru/en/magnetic_storms.html

 

Not much you can do about it, but it might ease your anxiety to know that it's bigger than you and just ride the wave.

 

I have great hope for you - you've had some windows and hints of more windows, so you are healing.  It gets better from here.  

 

I have more notes too, but I'll get to them soon.

 

I hope you see the sun (and get your toes in the grass!) today.

 

ps.  I have been doing my tai chi barefoot on the grass in the sun - I really like the feeling of that.

[tntd]

Hi JanCarol,

 

Thanks so much for your help. 

 

Hey tndt, 

 

It looks like you are getting excellent suggestions from Alto, Ali, Scally and Wellness. 

 

I'll try and read between the lines and find questions that I think haven't been answered.  I have quite a few notes, so this will take a few posts, but I hope I can find some things that help you.  

 

First - Ali said you were on B vitamins?  They can be very activating - even if you did take them before withdrawal.  Additionally, if they are in a compound (B-Complex) the ratios of B1 - B3 - B5 - B6 - B12 - may not be the ratios you need.  I am an advocate for anyone who has symptoms to quit their B complex, and when they feel better, try adding them back ONE at a time....

 

 

 

 

For the B-Complex I'm assuming that you are talking about anxiety symptoms, or are there other symptoms that you would recommend staying away from them for as well? It's so weird that B's are activating because you always here they are great if you are under stress. 

Should I notice a difference when I stop taking them? 

 

 

I agree with Alto, this sounds like interdose withdrawal, or rebound anxiety.   I know you are under Wellness' care in the benzo forum, but is she satisfied that you are getting 24 hour coverage with your dosing of clonazepam?  

 

Please be extremely careful increasing your benzo with symptoms.  Try and hold at the same level of benzo, always.  It will still mediate some of the SSRI withdrawal symptoms, but if you keep increasing the dose, you run the risk of an extended taper there, too.  But Wellness has probably given you a good education about it - she's good that way (yep, she's a she!)

 

 

Ok, this idea of interdose withdrawal or rebound anxiety has me scared. How do I know if it is the clonazepam causing the anxiety or the withdrawal from the buproprion causing it? Am I still in withdrawal from Buproprion then? Also if I am having interdose withdrawal or rebound anxiety is there anything I can do about it? Right now I am taking the clonazepam about 12 hours apart. I usually get a break from all my symptoms in the evening though so maybe I should take them closer together. I think I will take this question to Wellness as well but any info you have would be great too.

 

 

You wrote:

I have been using many of the techniques like deep breathing and mindfulness. They seem to last only as long as I am using them. This anxiety is unlike my normal anxiety and about the only thing I can do to escape it is to distract myself with surfing the internet or some other brain absorbing activity.

 

Sometimes the techniques aren't as effective for the big bad symptoms - but look at it this way - WHILE you were DOING them, you were FREE, so - you know you can get a BREAK sometimes, by doing a technique.  This is awesome news, and points to the possibility of Windows coming your way.

 

And, in fact, you have started to have windows, which is an excellent sign at just over 30 days off Wellbutrin.

 

 

 

I've been wondering how much these windows have to do with the use of clonazepam.  If I am already having windows though does that point to getting through withdrawal a little faster?  I really want to start tapering off of the benzo but I know I need to be through the wellbutrin withdrawal first.

 

 

 

 

 We also had a really bad thunderstorm last night that gave me a headache, vertigo, and body aches. Could that be a trigger? 

 

On this one, I can only comment on my personal experience and what others have said.  I have found that changes in pressure, especially to low pressure zones (foul weather) is more difficult on symptoms, especially mood symptoms, but also pain, too.

 

Additionally, some people can tie their symptoms in to Geomagnetic storms.  I haven't tracked my symptoms this way, but if I go through a period, where it seems like a lot of my friends are suffering, I check this site to see if there are any geomagnetic storms about.  

http://www.tesis.lebedev.ru/en/magnetic_storms.html

 

Not much you can do about it, but it might ease your anxiety to know that it's bigger than you and just ride the wave.

 

I have great hope for you - you've had some windows and hints of more windows, so you are healing.  It gets better from here.  

 

I have more notes too, but I'll get to them soon.

 

I hope you see the sun (and get your toes in the grass!) today.

 

ps.  I have been doing my tai chi barefoot on the grass in the sun - I really like the feeling of that.

 

We had another thunderstorm not long after I asked this question and the body aches kicked into high gear, along with mood symptoms. What was interesting is that we had a rainstorm just this past week and it didn't seem to cause me any problems. I do think the pressure changes are a big factor though. Interesting that the last one did not cause me any issues. I've not thought about the geomagnetic storms though, that is an interesting thought. 

 

Thank you so much for your notes and comments. I'm having mood swings today, so a bit of crying and feeling low. I did however get out and put my feet in the grass. The sun is really bright so I had on my sunglasses but I was able to stay out longer than usual and I found that ecouraging despite feeling down. I can only go for slow short walks so far but at least I can do that now. Every improvement is good no matter how big or small it is. (I was an exercise devotee before the withdrawal hit. I did HIIT, weight lifting, cardio, and I loved it.)

 

I'm glad you can get out and do Tai Chi and barefoot in the sun to boot. Can't beat that.

 

Thank you so much for everything. I hope you are seeing the improvements in your health that you want.

 

Hugs

[Altostrata]

TNTD, it doesn't seem you take clonazepam at the same times each day? This can make a big difference.

 

It certainly seems that, at the least, you are having an adverse reaction to your early-morning drugs. Do you always take clonazepam with Buspar or only sometimes? Do you always take Buspar at the same times each day?

 

This is why we need a record for drugs and symptoms over several days.

[tntd]

Hi Alto,

 

I try to take my meds at the same time every day. I sometimes get off on the weekends and end up taking my bedtime meds later. I also sometimes forget my 3:00 Buspar but take it as soon as I remember. Also if I have to be at a doctors appointment and have no one to drive me I have to change when I take the clonazepam. I try to keep things as even as I can though.

 

I take my Buspar three times a day and the Clonazepam two times a day. I take the two together at bedtime but other than that I take them apart from one another but I recently changed that as I was having really bad breakthrough anxiety in the afternoon so I spaced the clonazepam further apart but couldn't change when I take the Buspar in the mornings.

 

        7:00 am Buspar 10mg  Anxiety surges and increaseing anxiety until about an hour after I take my clonazepam. I stay in bed until the dizzyness

        passes.

 

        10:00 am Clonazepam .5mg Slightly reduced anxiety but it doesn't go away. It also increases my fatigue.

 

        12:30 - 2:30 anxiety usually starts to increase sometime during this window. Occasionally I will get depressed instead of anxious. If I get

        depressed it usually lasts through the rest of the day and sometimes into the next day. Daily headache usually starts at some point during this

        window as well.

 

        3:00 pm Buspar 10mg Get dizzy and sometimes nauseas.

 

        5:00 - 9:00 Anxiety usually lifts at some point during this window and I often feel very good when I go to bed. The fatigue also usually lifts in the

        evenings.

 

       10:30 pm Buspar 30mg, Clonazepam .75mg Go to sleep once the meds kick in. If I'm still awake I get extremely dizzy, hot, and feel sick. Have

        always had these side effects with Buspar.

 

 

I am pretty much agoraphobic all day everyday. I have had a few windows when I was not. I also have been able to make myself go out for walks on occasions even when I'm am feeling agoraphobic. I am also hypersensitive to light, noise, and motion, probably why I'm mostly house bound.

 

I always get dizzy with the Buspar which is why I take the largest dose at bedtime so I can sleep through the side effects.

 

Do you want me to write up a few days worth of drugs and symptoms? I can do that on a word doc and then copy and paste it. 

 

Thank you for going through my drugs and symptoms with me. I'm really not sure where to go from here or if I just need to hold with everything.

 

What early morning adverse reaction are you seeing that I am having to my meds?

 

Thank you for your time as I know this is very time consuming. I can't express my appreciation to you and the other moderaters enough.

[JanCarol]

Hey TNDT - 

 

B-Complex.  It is not a problem for me - I take tons of B-vitamins and use them to regulate my mood.  But I am not in SSRI withdrawal - my last SNRI drug was about 2.5 years ago now.  Yes, specific B vitamins can be good for specific requirement - niacin for anxiety, B6 for mood stabilization, biotin for skin, etc.  And I adjust my individual vitamins up or down according to symptoms - I recently had to decrease my B6 because it was increasing sleep paralysis and making my nightmares unbearable (for example).  But a shotgun approach to B-vitamins -which is what a complex is - is unhelpful for most mood management, and can be too stimulating for withdrawal.  

 

I know, it seems such a harmless thing.  If you stop your B-vitamins today, you may be able to feel a difference today, or at least within 3 days.  And when you add them back, research them, and choose the ones you think you need, instead of letting the vitamin company just throw a bunch together and say it's good for "stress" or "women" or whatever the complex is.

 

Here's what others have said about B vitamins in withdrawal (and you are clearly in withdrawal):  http://survivingantidepressants.org/index.php?/topic/1068-vitamin-b-complex-supplement-reaction/

 

You wrote:

I've been wondering how much these windows have to do with the use of clonazepam.  If I am already having windows though does that point to getting through withdrawal a little faster?  I really want to start tapering off of the benzo but I know I need to be through the wellbutrin withdrawal first.

 

Certainly, it usually feels good to take a clonazepam.  Until it doesn't.  I have noticed that some of you "get things done" times happen when the clonazepam kicks in.  I'm not suggesting you cut it, I don't think Alto is, either.  Just be aware that it is highly addictive - and I'm confident to have Wellness on the Benzo Forum side manage your taper there.  And I would caution strongly against "extras" or "increases."

 

back to my notes from last night, where you wrote:

Part of the problem is not having any friends in the area and due to my social anxiety issues I don't use the phone or even social media. I'm sure being isolated is not helping my situation any. I feel really scared and alone. 

 

This sounds like your next challenge.  I have always been the new kid in town.  Look through your local paper.  Find something non-threatening, like a flea market to go to first, where you can just go, maybe buy a piece of fruit, and sit and watch people and feel less alone.  Outdoors is better, if you can (fluorescent lights in shopping malls have been known to set people off).

 

(social media is overrated - and often is not very "social" at all - I think it is making our society less social over time!)

 

Gradually build up to a sort of thing where you talk to someone - like a church service, or a volunteer group (the Red Cross or Goodwill is always pretty good), or a social group that plays cards, bingo,  or sings or something esle you are interested in.  We now have "social colouring groups" all over town, just a few years ago it was social knitting and crocheting groups.  (I'd rather knit in public, my colouring is - well - kind of hard to talk to people when I'm concentrating so hard!)

 

It takes time.  It took me 10 years to feel like I have a community around me again.  In my old hometown, it was instant community - but here, it took me a year to understand what people were saying to me - and even longer to understand "pop culture" and have "in common" items of discussion.

 

Some people cruise through the lists at meetup.com and try and find small groups with common interests.  Maybe it's just ladies who go to a Wednesday matinee at the theatre, or have a cuppa to discuss science fiction books - there's a meetup for EVERYthing these days!

 

You may even look in the regional section of SA - to see if there are any SA type meetups or phone groups in your area.  Or - you may "visit" other members threads, to establish contact with people who understand what you are going through.  You visit them, they visit you - you can select people who have experienced Wellbutrin, or anxiety, or suffer from benzo problems, or have just made posts that you find attractive and appealing.  I started by visiting all the people who visited my thread.  There are prayer groups here, and all kinds of different support.

 

Ultimately, we are all alone, but the more connections we make, the more sacred this life becomes.

 

I'm off to do my sun-walk, back in a bit.

 

So start soon, and gradually, you will not feel so alone.

[JanCarol]

How do you know if the "depression" is withdrawal or if it is resurfacing emotion? 

 

What an awesome question!  Most people ask "is it withdrawal or relapse"? And then I send them here:  

 

Is It Relapse or Withdrawal?

 

But your question is more subtle.  Resurfacing emotion. 

 

If your emotions have been numbed on the drugs, your brain, your gut, will start "flexing" your emotional muscles, as they have become atrophied with disuse. 

 

Sometimes this can get extreme, as in Neuro-emotion, where a very real emotion gets magnified all out of proportion, and it seems so very real because the seed at the core of the emotion is true.  But the reaction in withdrawal is often more extreme than your natural response.

 

Petunia believes that these emotions resurfacing are from prior traumas, and I read a piece by Dabney Alix in which she actually went into a state of spiritual emergency of feeling the trauma of all of those she had ever shared time with in mental hospitals.  The emergency was horrid (I won't go into graphics), and it was a way of healing her own trauma.

 

Ultimately, only you can decide what these experiences are, but I just wanted to let you know that changes in emotion are perfectly normal in withdrawal, and it doesn't really matter the cause - if you can go through them, and be mindful with them, they can be great teachers.

 

My husband is out doing the grocery shopping for us. He is my superhero. I don't know what I would do without him. 

 

I, too, could not have tapered without my husband to prepare meals, do shopping, organize things, pay the bills, etc.

 

It was my hope when I moved here that, with the greater sunshine and a more natural lifestyle that I could come off my drugs.  I have - but it has been more challenging than I envisioned it in 2000!

 

But it requires more than just hubby - it would be too much burden if I put all of my emotions and symptoms on him.  I come here to SA, I get massage and acupuncture (and lately physio, too), I have lunch with friends, I take yoga and tai chi classes.  I can't always "share" in all of these situations, but sometimes just being among others is a comfort.

 

I encourage him to go out and "do stuff" too, but he's stubbornly resisting.  It's a compliment to me, I guess, that he prefers my company to others, but it would also be a blessing to me if he communicated with anyone besides myself (he is recently retired).

 

Has anyone had that reaction to fish oils?

 

LOL    I don't mean to make light of your question or your reaction - but if there is a substance, and if there are people in withdrawal, someone has surely had a reaction to it.  You can read what others say, here:  Omega-3 fish oil

 

It, and Magnesium seem to be the only supplements which Alto consistently recommends, which means they are the ones she has seen the most benefit from.

 

You seemed to react when increasing your fish oil - what prompted you to increase the fish oil?

 

Also - if you are worried about taking too much oral magnesium, my favourite benzo alternative is Epsom Salts - Another Way to Relax with Magnesium  (I'm not suggesting this instead of a benzo, but if you need to relax, and you are "in between" doses, why not give it a try?)

 

 Does anyone know if Wellbutrin Cold Turkey follows the same trajectory of SS/SNRI taper or cold turkey? 

 

Again,   all of the psych drugs fiddle in the neurotransmitters.  In fact, we can even find a number of non-psych drugs which can mess with your moods, too.

 

Wellbutrin was one of my personal demons.  I kept thinking that with my yoga and meditation and healthy juicing lifestyle I could come off the Wellbutrin.  I started bouncing doses (bad thing to do, but we didn't know anything in the 90's!), trying to get it down from 300 mg to 150 mg.  I could only last on the 150 for a week until I went into hypersomnia.  I slept 18 hours a day, making it hard to hold down a job, so I would bump the dose back up again.  This went on for about 2 years, and I could never get off the buproprion until I crashed completely, slept for a month, and then was switched to low dose effexor.

 

There are a bunch of Intro threads here which include wellbutrin.  If you go to Google, type in "Survivingantidepressants.org" and "wellbutrin" you will get a list, or subsitute "buproprion" or "zyban" (as some people used this drug just to stop smoking, and got caught in the AD trap.).

 

Here's one such story, but there are many:  http://survivingantidepressants.org/index.php?/topic/7124-vetdoc-going-off-valium-and-wellbutrin/

 

More in a mo -