success ☼ Claudius

[Claudius]

Hi fellows,

I see a lot of familiar names here around! Just joined this new forum because PP does not fit me anymore.

In 2002 I was prescribed 20 mg of Paxil/Seroxat for panic attacks and I lowered the dose shortly after that to 10 mg. But nevertheless got hopelessly hooked to it... after several failed attemtps I quit cold turkey again in 2007 just to enter the hell of protracted WD. I got every debilitating symptom you can ever imagine: diarrea, vomiting, congitive shutdown and PTSS in the form of return of my worst nightmare memory of being severely bullied decades ago. I was on the verge of suicide and sought the confrontation with my former bully several times in such an aggrssive and dangerous way that I am deeply ashamed of and got even sued by him. I was even in state of murder.

Now after 3.5 years things are slightly better, some symptoms have vanished but I am still homebound and nasty waves still occur. I am working woth a good therpapist but the fear for very long-term neurological damage is still there.

[Neuroplastic]

Welcome to the forum, Claudius! (great nick, by the way) All that you're experiencing is typical WD. It may take some time before we bounce back, but the process of healing is always there. Just take it easy and you will eventually get back to your old self. It's beyond any doubt. What symptoms have improved for you so far? How are you feeling when in the windows?

[Healing]

Welcome, Claudius! Great to see you here.

 

One of the effects of this SSRI-neuro damage is to make us obsess over past traumas. It's really intense. The past just seems to come alive. You've done a lot of hard work on yourself trying to deal with this obsession, heal the past, and continue to work it through in, I think, a couple of different forms of therapy. That's so admirable.

 

All that work will pay off so much in so many ways. But, you are also healing automatically, and these obsessions will eventually just evaporate. I believe something good will come out of this particular trauma. You just can't quite see it yet.

[Claudius]

Thanks for your reactions. And indeed the ruminating about the past was awful and scary. But that I sought the confrontation with my bully of decades ago is something I can hardly forgive myself. I brought myself and others in great danger by sending him hatemails and posting messages with his name in the internet. I knew this was pretty bizarre and dangerous behaviour but somehow had just to make my point. And not one time but several times throughout my WD period. And I am deeply ashamed that I could not control my emotions and did suych stupid and dangerous things.

 

Right now my anxiety is back and feel pretty weak and exhausted. Also anhedonia is there while this was no original issue for me. But the electrical jolts appear to be better now. SO it is an ongoing shift between symptoms. Way to go....

[Healing]

You have great insight about your behavior. You're working on yourself actively. The intense shame and difficulty forgiving yourself are largely artifacts of neurological damage -- we can't change the channel on our thoughts as we used to, every feeling is amplified 100x. Plus, you're in a bit of a wave right now. All of this will evaporate when you have healed more.

[stan]

But, you are also healing automatically, and these obsessions will eventually just evaporate.

 

i think it will be so with time

[Neuroplastic]

Claudius, the most important thing is to not accuse yourself of certain types of behaviour - we all know how absurdly intensive OCD and ruminations can get. Been there. You're walking in the *right* direction. Night and day. I'd have one more suggestion to you re WD - here's the deal; in the early phase of WD I tended to question the validity of the thesis that food, supplements and vitamins can play such profound role in shaping the waves and windows pattern. Until I found absolute correlation (AND causation) between certain products I eat and the intensity of the waves.

 

That said, food alone won't be enough, what's essential and 100% effective is... time. Still, you may want looking into your diet, and check which ingredients may cause the worseninng of the symptoms. In my case this would, no doubt, be carbs. Suffice it to say, yesterday I had a pizza, today the symptoms got back with vengeance. Yet, in a couple of days it's all going to subside.

[alexjuice]

Thanks for your reactions. And indeed the ruminating about the past was awful and scary. But that I sought the confrontation with my bully of decades ago is something I can hardly forgive myself. I brought myself and others in great danger by sending him hatemails and posting messages with his name in the internet. I knew this was pretty bizarre and dangerous behaviour but somehow had just to make my point. And not one time but several times throughout my WD period. And I am deeply ashamed that I could not control my emotions and did suych stupid and dangerous things.

 

Claudius,

 

I've been preoccupied and obsessed with injustices of years ago... I can relate.

 

I have done many silly, stupid, dangerous, reckless, embarrassing, top-secret, life-threatening, jail-threatening, health-threatening and just plain bizarre things during my ordeal on Drugs and during w/d.

 

Technically, I did those things. However, I now know that it wasn't really ME by any reasonable standard. The medications that were used on me are very potent and have been proven to alter behavior in so many ways for so many who take them (and/or stop them).

 

Today I sometimes get relief by imagining that I might myself experiment on a powerful person, like a former world leader such George W Bush or Bill Clinton. I imagine playing the role of Doctor, taking a former president, submitting him to a variety of high-dose pharmaceutical therapies, starting his meds and then changing course, cold-turkeying him, instigating w/d, then restarting on a new medication, and so on. I imagine 'tinkering' with him until eventually, given enough time for trial and error, I alter his behavior through w/d or therapy so much that the world labels him 'disabled' or 'nuts'.

 

This is probably a weird thing to think about to cheer myself up. But it makes me feel better to think that the highest functioning people on earth are no different from me -- they need a brain that is undisturbed to be 'themselves'.

 

And, like me, they would be mostly defenseless against a concentrated campaign to scramble their neural eggs.

 

Alex.I

[Claudius]

Claudius,

 

I've been preoccupied and obsessed with injustices of years ago... I can relate.

 

I have done many silly, stupid, dangerous, reckless, embarrassing, top-secret, life-threatening, jail-threatening, health-threatening and just plain bizarre things during my ordeal on Drugs and during w/d.

 

Technically, I did those things. However, I now know that it wasn't really ME by any reasonable standard. The medications that were used on me are very potent and have been proven to alter behavior in so many ways for so many who take them (and/or stop them).

 

Today I sometimes get relief by imagining that I might myself experiment on a powerful person, like a former world leader such George W Bush or Bill Clinton. I imagine playing the role of Doctor, taking a former president, submitting him to a variety of high-dose pharmaceutical therapies, starting his meds and then changing course, cold-turkeying him, instigating w/d, then restarting on a new medication, and so on. I imagine 'tinkering' with him until eventually, given enough time for trial and error, I alter his behavior through w/d or therapy so much that the world labels him 'disabled' or 'nuts'.

 

This is probably a weird thing to think about to cheer myself up. But it makes me feel better to think that the highest functioning people on earth are no different from me -- they need a brain that is undisturbed to be 'themselves'.

 

And, like me, they would be mostly defenseless against a concentrated campaign to scramble their neural eggs.

 

Alex.I

 

Well never thought of that... I had the fantasy of doing something terrible to my former bully and even wrote this on the Net (and of course he found it). Not a very smart action and I won't defend myself, but at least this was a person who DID do much harm to me without any reason. I would never think of doing something nasty to an innocent person. Whatever you may think of George Bush, he was an elected (and even re-elected) president.

But I can get your point but would rather use it against the money-greeding Big Pharma people and the shrinks who pushed this brain-poisoning stuff to us.

I read from your profile that you had an awful experience with literally tens of poisonous drugs. That makes your situation probably more complicated than mine, though I doubt whether it is possible to be sicker than I was during the first 18 months or so... I think all these poisons are able to dstroy a person, but a mix of drugs makes it even more complicated to get off and heal.

Anyway wish you all the best, and hope you will be finally drug-free too!

[alexjuice]

Well never thought of that... I had the fantasy of doing something terrible to my former bully and even wrote this on the Net (and of course he found it). Not a very smart action and I won't defend myself, but at least this was a person who DID do much harm to me without any reason. I would never think of doing something nasty to an innocent person. Whatever you may think of George Bush, he was an elected (and even re-elected) president.

But I can get your point but would rather use it against the money-greeding Big Pharma people and the shrinks who pushed this brain-poisoning stuff to us.

I read from your profile that you had an awful experience with literally tens of poisonous drugs. That makes your situation probably more complicated than mine, though I doubt whether it is possible to be sicker than I was during the first 18 months or so... I think all these poisons are able to dstroy a person, but a mix of drugs makes it even more complicated to get off and heal.

Anyway wish you all the best, and hope you will be finally drug-free too!

 

Thanks, Claudius...

 

I don't mean any former president any harm. I only meant that any person, even a powerful and healthy person, could have their lives traumatized if they were subjected to what I was. It makes me feel better when I get on a pity party or feel like there's something wrong with me to realize that it coulda been anyone.

 

Alex.I

[Rhiannon]

Thanks for your reactions. And indeed the ruminating about the past was awful and scary. But that I sought the confrontation with my bully of decades ago is something I can hardly forgive myself. I brought myself and others in great danger by sending him hatemails and posting messages with his name in the internet. I knew this was pretty bizarre and dangerous behaviour but somehow had just to make my point. And not one time but several times throughout my WD period. And I am deeply ashamed that I could not control my emotions and did suych stupid and dangerous things.

 

hey you know what? you're not the only one. I don't want to tell the story yet, but believe me, I have done some VERY stupid and dangerous things, on psych meds and in w/d (well, during the many years I was on psych meds I was usually in w/d one way or another as well because I hated them and was always trying to quit them).

 

Including something kind of similar to what you are describing.

 

I am learning to forgive myself because now that I'm tapering and dosing very regularly and down to mostly"subtherapeutic" doses I am realizing that--That. Was. Not ME. Because I'm starting to remember who "me" is, from time to time, in my better moments.

 

I'm sure it varies from person to person, but for me, the cognitive, perceptual distortions, the ways these drugs warp my actual thought processes, what I believe, what seems real and appropriate, as well as the extreme obsessiveness I have experienced--it's absolutely amazing.

 

Anyway, nuff said, just wanted to say, over here, pssst...you're not alone.

 

--Rhi

[Claudius]

Thanks Rhi! I know many people have done some stupid things. But I was close to getting sent to jail. I almost must be grateful to my former bully he did not actually sue me, though sparing me for jail won't have been his primary reason for this...

I look back on my hidious actions which hindered my recovery soo much! But I could not do else, so you are right: this WAS NOT ME!

I am too getting closer to "ME" again but still have a road to go, I am pretty depressed and anxious right now. On next Friday I go on a pleasant holiday for 5 days, hope I will make it and do not feel too bad...

[Claudius]

41 months off

 

Still pretty rough, but compared to the first 2 years I must admit this is almost a walk in the park!

-Intestinal mess is 99% gone, sometimes during a bad wave, I have diarrea for one day, but the day after it is normal again.

-The nasty headaches, feeling like being "hit on the head" are gone since a few months, sometimes I feel a residual headache-like feeling which is bearable and does not take long.

-My almost comlete and life-threatening derealization and depersonalization is much better, I do not feel like a psychotic anymore, but looking back at the dangerous things I did, even as late as 2010, still baffle me and fill me with shame and fear that I risked my life to make my point to my former abuser. I just have to live with it and it will probably have no consequences.

-My natural interest are back for a big part, I read again, make cryptograms and Sudoku puzzles and do not feel any decrease in my power solving them.

-Concentration power varies a lot, due to the waves (see below) it is very bad due to the tinglings and creeppy feeling. During the windows, it is almost normal

-The very VERY nasty electric feeling in the left chest, radiating into the arms, is my prevalent tortuous symptom. It prevents me from resuming work and when it is really bad, I cannot study or work on my ICT projects. It still makes me feel far from healed, but I know when this is gone too, I will almost 100% healed

-Still feel pretty exhausted and tired, altough some days it is better. Yesterday it was a sunny and warm day and I was with 2 friends at a lake, and we lied in the sun and swam a big distance. I enjoyed the day and looking at the clounds in the sky (my eyesight is completely unaffected) And it felt almost great....

-Depression hits during waves, but is gone for now, and I really look forward to my 4 day trip to France tomorrow!

Way to go... but definately healing.

[stan]

hi Claudius,

 

you seem very very better when in windows, there is this electrical feeling left chest to arms which is harming you since a while until the state to not be able to work,

 

i wish you it goes away as all is gone, 41 months is much, i never though in your case (little taken)it will be so long but i am trusting

where do you go in France ?

[Claudius]

THanks Stan, it is indeed a very long time but I have some confidence in a happy end...

I think dose really does not matter. MAny people were on 10 mg and had atrocious WD. And many others were on higher doses, went down pretty easily to 10 or even 5 mg an were then hit by the devil of WD.

I think only duration of use matters, together with genetical sensitivity and maybe even an unprocessed traumatic past. And probably each failed WD attempt followed by reinstatement gives the brain an extra shock and damages it more. I remember that my latter CT attempts and reinstatements took much longer to stabilize... And I still feel some fear from peromanant damage but I know now that nasty symptoms CAN disappear without a trace... and indeed when this last miserable symptom is gone I will feel mway better.

I go to Lille tomorrow, in the north of France. It is more a Flemish than a French city but is is France anyway

[stan]

when i was on paxil but better as today, i go once year in Lille at the mega "second-hand"(i do not know the name) in the Lille 's streets, to buy old things

Cosette lives near, i near Paris

 

nice visit !

[Altostrata]

I wish I could go to Lille for the mega-secondhand. Maybe some day we can all meet.

[Neuroplastic]

Maybe some day we can all meet.

Of this I have no doubt. The sky is the limit, Sur.

 

Claudius, so great to read you've been feeling better. You know you're improving. Oh, this absurd pace of it. I know. But, as you rightly wrote, it used to be so much much worse in early WD. You're on the right track. Keep healing!

[Healing]

This is wonderful to hear, Claudius. I am so happy for you! I know you still suffer and have a ways to go, but the healing is obvious!

[stan]

I wish I could go to Lille for the mega-secondhand. Maybe some day we can all meet.

 

do not forget me !

[Neuroplastic]

do not forget me !

Without you it wouldn't count, Stan.

[Claudius]

One more update, unfortunately it is still not a very positive one

Now at more than 45 months, counting from the moment that WD hit, 6 weeks after the last dose.

My remaining symptoms are still torturous, although some other symptoms are better of even vanished. But I feel like having hit the "plateau" phase, and there is no real progression since a year or so, apart from some short windows.

My therapist still supports me but even he does not know much anymore and told me to give it until next Spring (2012) to meet on a 6 weeks base. Today I had a session and was very emotional, the old emotional stuff still pops up but is surely related to the bad neurological stuff. The jolts in the left chest, the eye twitching (mostly left now) and my solar plexus still feels like a painful knot. This is wat still bothers me very much, and deprives me of all concentraional power and makes working still impossible. Also physical exercise costs alot of pain and appears to trigger the nausea, jolts and dizziness.

Approaching the 4 years point I feel desperate and exhausted. THe hope for something of a happy end is almost zero at the moment. I still have financial support but have no idea how long this will last. The last sparks of hope together with the love of my mum and friends still prevents me from making serious plans to end it all. But I cannot let go the thoughts that this cannot go on for years anymore and there is a chance that I have to give in. I still take some pleasure from doing things with friends, reading, making Sudoku puzzles but the impossibility to resume a normal life has driven me nuts.

I know that there is no magic answer. My mother suggest talking to another doctor and see a neurologist (she agrees with me that psychaitriy is no option for me) but what else could they offer than trying some other med to treat the symptoms?

I discovered about WD on the other site about 2 years ago and the information gave me new hope that the turning point could come after 2, 3 years. But no turning point has come altough I felt like being close to it several times. It turned out to be wishful thinking...

Even the good docs tell that the prolbems should take no longer than 3 to 4 years. But there just comes no end to it. I feel lik ehaving failed in life, not only because of my faults (I surely did make some!) but having such extreme bad luck with sadistic bullies, jobs and of course medicine that I really do not see any light at this point. I am so sorry about all this. I know I am not alone in this but I feel completely stuck...

[Altostrata]

I'm so sorry, Claudius. I know what it's like to hold out hopes for turning the corner.

 

You are enjoying some things -- can you focus on that? And you have gotten somewhat better. Perhaps life has gotten smaller for a while, but there are some things that have meaning, and you have the love of your mum and friends. That means so much.

[Claudius]

Thanx Alto... the fact that I can still enjoy so many things is at least the ultimate proof that I am certainly not depressed

Right now I feel way better than last days. And again I have a feeling that the turning point is not too far ahead of me.

But I won't set my expectaions too high... that turning point is just like the carrot hanging in front of the donkey... but just moves as fast as the donkey itself when trying to grab it

[stan]

 

I know that there is no magic answer. My mother suggest talking to another doctor and see a neurologist (she agrees with me that psychaitriy is no option for me) but what else could they offer than trying some other med to treat the symptoms?

 

 

hi ,

i know a person who had a moment in work high stress and severe dizzy, she go to the ear doc,it give nothing and then to a neurologist,

the neurologist prescribed an antidepressant,

i tell to the person to see my state after antidepressant,

the person has taking nothing, 7 months later all is gone 95 %, she has sometime 5/10 % symptoms, but lives well and works every day

 

courage, time is the only answer, and try to live with your residual symptoms

[Claudius]

I get this Stan, of course your friend has not taken meds and his concition is not comparable with ours.

I agree that we have little other option than time. What bothers me is that I approach the 4 years mark, had little improvements last year and am still unable to work. My fear is that one day I must face the decision: doing nothing, remain unable to work and hope for ongoing financuila support and maybe further recovery, or try some med in eager hope it will lift my prevalent torturous symptoms. Of course I want to postpone this choice at long as possible. I wonder how many people still recover after being sick for almost 4 years. I guess nobody has the answer, but my impression is that most people either recover after 2-4 years, or do not recover at all.

For now I will stay on the course.

[Maybe]

Though, and thank to God for that, your assumption that people do not recover after a period of 4 years is wrong. You surely remember Charly from antidepressantfacts who is back to 100%. It took him 5 or 7 years if I recall correctly.

I read about a guy on the German board, who had major problems with benzo wd and he recovered fully around the 5th year. And what gives me hope to just hang on is the fact that all may end "next month". You never know how you will feel 30 days from now even if it already took that long.

[Claudius]

Thanx Maybe, this gives me some hope.
I had a few windows which occurred almost from nothing. So it can happen each time. My case will be extra complicated because of major life events and some dangerous things I did during WD which created their own stress and fear. But during the windows I was able to study and work at home and right now I am not. Though I have grown to a master Sudoku solver
Yesc I remember the story of Charly G. He is from my country BTW and I read his site. I remember that he needed about 6 years to recover and anther 6 years to deal with the trauma of all this... but I do not know how reliable this info is and I was so lucky to have very fgood tratment for trauma related events... wso when I am over this I guess it will be relatively easy to pick up life again.

Edited August 28, 2013 by Altostrata
name changes by request

[stan]

hi Claudius,

 

your body seems to sleep in recovery since a while, try to give it a boost

 

if you have fear, make you much fear to be hurt and then fight it

hurt you in your symptoms to wake up your nerves body/brain, so as he suffer, he will try to create new nerves paths and other changes against these artificial hurts

[Altostrata]

stan is right, leave those past hurts behind to help your healing now.As I recall, Charly G. said he had fully recovered in 7 years; the emotional part was at the end.Charly is on Facebook. I have asked him to come here and tell his story but so far, no response. Perhaps if more people ask him, even another from his country, he will do it.

Edited August 28, 2013 by Altostrata
name changed by request

[Claudius]

I sent Charly an email about one year ago and he did not react. MAybe he is just finished with the matter and wants to let the issue rest...

My symptoms now are not really anxiety related but purely neurological, and still resudual reuminating thoughts but this is not the worst now.

The strange electric jolt sensations in the heart/chest are the most torturous symptom now, which goes togther with eye twitching. It is still neurological damage.

I decided to quit the sessions with the homeopathic doctor (who prescirbes supplements) and only go on with the massage therapist, as long as he want to work with me

And as told many tomes before, time will be the only healer, but I am petting a pit impatient after having my life manily on hold for more than 3.5 years now...

[Claudius]

One more update, unfortunately still going bad Though emotionally I am surely more stable than the first years, I still feel nauseated, tired and dizzy on a daily base. Even worse is the sensory hypersensitivity which always triggers the torturous jolts in the left chest. There is no progression and I feel really desperate.

I always told myself to give it the full "David Healy" 4 years, and now that point is coming very near, my last dose was 31 August 2007 and because WD hit 6 weeks later I count 15 October 2007 as the start of WD, from that day I got very sick and entered the hellish rollercoaster of WD.

I really do not know what to do, still unable to work although I have a very small voluntary Web project. But my productivity is still not even 10% of what it used to be.

I know we must keep believing but I am thinking about suicide more and more. And not because I want to die but because I do not believe in it anymore, after almost 4 years and very little progress. Though I had a window after about 20 months, now 2 years ago, I feel much worse right now and feel no progression this year... my hope that 2011 would be "my year" is gone completely.

The last sparks of hope and the fact my mum will be deeply traumatized if I would take my life and the fact I am still lucky to be free from work keep me from still postponing this awful decision.

But knowing that even the worst cases report complete or almost complete recovery after 4 years makes me fear that my case is really hopeless, I am afraid thast the about 5-6 c/t attempts and reinstatement really were too much for my cns to ever come over. And as we know, going to a doctor is useless in our situation.

I am determined to hang on to at least the end of this year. I am so sorry ever have taken these cursed pills which blew my life away.

[ajay]

Claudius, I am so sorry.

 

Perhaps you are an extreme case where it takes over 4 years?

 

I don't want to throw lots of solutions your way - the only thing I can think of is to ask if you have contacted Frank van Meerendonk and/or the Prozac Survivors Support Group (PSSG) in The Netherlands. Just so you know you aren't alone.

 

You have said that some things have improved, and you have been able to enjoy time with friends, swimming in France, sudoku... and that you were going to hang on until spring of 2012, right? I hope that you can see windows of improvement...

 

I send you a big hug and rays of sunshine. I wish you healing and hope.

[Altostrata]

Claudius, I don't believe the 4-year limit is realistic. There are many people who needed longer to recover.

 

It is very difficult when we expect to recover by a certain point but it doesn't happen. Try not to have these expectations, and don't blame yourself.

 

My acupuncturist, who's an MD and a PhD in neurophysiology, suggested my chest symptoms (buzzing, bubbling, plus palpitations and stomach gas) were caused by hyperactivity in the vagus nerve, which is in the middle of the chest and controls the heart as well as stomach.

 

His treatments did calm this down. Have you tried acupuncture?

[btdt]

 

 

Thanx Maybe, this gives me some hope.
I had a few windows which occurred almost from nothing. So it can happen each time. My case will be extra complicated because of major life events and some dangerous things I did during WD which created their own stress and fear. But during the windows I was able to study and work at home and right now I am not. Though I have grown to a master Sudoku solver
Yesc I remember the story of Charly G.. He is from my country BTW and I read his site. I remember that he needed about 6 years to recover and anther 6 years to deal with the trauma of all this... but I do not know how reliable this info is and I was so lucky to have very fgood tratment for trauma related events... wso when I am over this I guess it will be relatively easy to pick up life again.

Just to be sure which site are you speaking of antidepressantfacts.com or is there another site? If so could you post a link thanks. Edited August 28, 2013 by Altostrata
name changed by request

[Claudius]

Ajay and Alto, thanx for your reactions.

Yes I tried acupuncture and in fact all of the non-medical therapy forms. In the first year I visited 3 different therapist, costing me thousands of bugs and to little avail. Later I visisted massage therapist and got some benefit from that. At least it helped to release eomtions, the sad thing is that these were merely "neuro-emotions" caused by the drug. Nevertheless those session were helpful for me. I was very hopeful because the sesions really appeared to touch the damaged places, activate the torturous feeling in the chest (you could even hear it contracting during the sessions) and I was eager to believe this was the road to freedom. But always the symtoms came back with revenge and not less severe than before.

My one remaining therapist now wants to taper down the sessions beause he is working with me now for about 2 years and says he cfannot do much anymore for me and does not want to use me as a money machine. Very honest of him of course. But that leaves me at the point that only time can give salvation.

 

Btw I heared of the Prozac Survivors group but the group does not seem to exist anyomre. The website is down and the telephone numeber not in use anymore. I tried to google Frank van Meerendonk but I cannot find any trace of him. There is another site in the Netherlnds, http://www.stichtingantidepressivavrij.nl (Netherlands free of AD's) which recognizes the problem and wants to help people. I called the founder, he was very kind but told me he had not seen such a severe case before and had no advices.

So again that leaves me with time as the only hope. I can ride it out financially another 2 years or so, let alone seaching a job after being homebound for 5 years or more with a story nobody will believe.

Luckily there are also some windows, my symtoms are purely neurological and I do not suffer from (social) anxiety, can go out, can drive my car (in fact I even could during my darkest and most torturous waves) and enjoy the company of friends. This has pulled me throguh until now.

Again thalks for your replies and best wishes. I still hope this will finally be something of the past...