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Dr Ken Gillman says Mirtazapine is not an anti depressant


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#1 Boardwalk

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Posted 03 October 2016 - 05:43 PM

Research Dr. Ken Gillman saying that Mirtazapine (Remeron) is actually not an anti depressant.

 

Unbelievable.

 

I am just starting to taper from 7.5 mg and will experiment a little with the % that I cut to see how it feels.

 

 


I was prescribed Effexor 150 mg for 15 yrs ending 2014 when I titrated slowly down, using Prozac the last month to stop.  The whole titration took about 1 year.  I had been lowered to 75 mg Effexor for the last 3 yrs before the titration began.

I used the counting beads method, and gained great help from supplementling with  Prozac the last month. 

 

In Jan 2016 I began ingesting strong skunk weed, in the form of edibles, and then stopped abruptly July 1, 2016. My daily dose of weed was a dash (spoon size of the measuring spoon I have) daily.   My reaction was acute anxiety.  July 5th I was prescribed Remeron 7.5 mg in the evening and Xanax 1mg twice per day ... 

 

August 4th my Xanax was replaced by Clonazepam .5 mg twice per day as the goal was to titrate, using a longer

acting benzo.  Titration on Clonazepam is expected to begin August 10th.


#2 AntiDFree

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Posted 03 October 2016 - 08:25 PM

Thank you for posting this topic.
I am still on 45mg of mirtazapine. I was prescribed it 12 years ago as an antidote to the sexual dysfunction experienced from the prozac. It worked. I expect that I will be tapering from that at some point after I'm finished with the prozac withdrawals. I've done some reading of the scientific data on mirtazapine and I'm not sure how deeply it has gripped my brain. I hope not as much as the Prozac did. It seems to be a different breed for lack of a better vocabulary regarding these drugs. I think the prozac has been the real "masking" drug for my normal sense of feelings and responsible for my inability to really feel and process normal emotions.
Thank you again for posting this.
Mark
Stopped Klonazepam .05/twice/day November 2014 after a 2 week taper. Had been using it for twenty years.
Stopped Prozac with a two month taper in June to August of 2015 after being on it for 20 years.
As of November 24, 2016 I am still abstinent. Emotional surges have subsided to only occasional, mild and brief rawness.
The Universe supports you in your effort to become free of your psychmeds and works through your body to bring healing. Sometimes it's very trying and painful, but it is worth the journey through the emotions!!!

#3 Hopefull

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Posted 05 October 2016 - 01:10 AM

I am coming off Mirtazapine as well.
If Mitrazapine is not an antidepressant, what is it?

DRUG HISTORY:

 

November 2013- Zoloft, ( Bad reaction).

January 2014 - March 2014 Seroquel.( Quit Cold Turkey).

January2014- Mirtazapine, I was taking 15mg at one stage, reduced to 7.5mg, Pgad reactions to Mirtazapine. Doctor kept increasing it to 37.5mg, until July 2014. No improvement, experiencing panic attacks, on 37.5 mg. I had enough by October 2014. Began tapering.

October 2014- Started tapering Mirtazapine from 37.5mg.

September 2015- Down to 4mg of Mirtazapine. Crashed.

September 16th- Up dosed to 5mg. Held this dose for almost 5 months. Stabilised.

February 2016- Began tapering again. From 5mg to 4.5mg of Mirtazapine. (Rocking the boat, again)! Lol. :(


#4 compsports

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Posted 05 October 2016 - 02:08 AM

His explanation which is way above my pay grade.  :)

 

http://www.psychotro...tranylcypromine

 

No matter what he wants to call it, I still found it very hard to get of even with a slow taper.

 

CS


Drug cocktail 1995 - 2010
Started taper of Adderall, Wellbutrin XL, Remeron, and Doxepin in 2006
Finished taper on June 10, 2010

Diagnosed with sleep apnea 2012 and on pap machine

Dealing with protracted sleep issues


#5 Boardwalk

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Posted 07 October 2016 - 12:20 PM

I am coming off Mirtazapine as well.
If Mitrazapine is not an antidepressant, what is it?

The doctor, who is well versed in this subject, calls it a simple, although strong anti histamine.....

I have been tapering this with big cuts, and feel ABSOLUTELY NOTHING.  The doctor is right.

I will continue to reduce slowly, just because it makes sense not to change anything abruptly,

but I can tell you having had a boat load of experience tapering off codeine, methadone and just in the

last month Xanax, which was by  far the worst, that Mirazapine is just what the doctor calls it: 

an antihistamine.


I was prescribed Effexor 150 mg for 15 yrs ending 2014 when I titrated slowly down, using Prozac the last month to stop.  The whole titration took about 1 year.  I had been lowered to 75 mg Effexor for the last 3 yrs before the titration began.

I used the counting beads method, and gained great help from supplementling with  Prozac the last month. 

 

In Jan 2016 I began ingesting strong skunk weed, in the form of edibles, and then stopped abruptly July 1, 2016. My daily dose of weed was a dash (spoon size of the measuring spoon I have) daily.   My reaction was acute anxiety.  July 5th I was prescribed Remeron 7.5 mg in the evening and Xanax 1mg twice per day ... 

 

August 4th my Xanax was replaced by Clonazepam .5 mg twice per day as the goal was to titrate, using a longer

acting benzo.  Titration on Clonazepam is expected to begin August 10th.


#6 Boardwalk

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Posted 07 October 2016 - 12:23 PM

His explanation which is way above my pay grade.   :)

 

http://www.psychotro...tranylcypromine

 

No matter what he wants to call it, I still found it very hard to get of even with a slow taper.

 

CS

If you read it carefully, he says it is an anti histamine.  I have found him to be exactly right as my

taper is going so smoothly, I don't feel ANY problems at all.....Refer to my response to hopeful for more.

I will say it does wonders at night to put one at ease and to sleep.  But it is a harmless antihistamine.


I was prescribed Effexor 150 mg for 15 yrs ending 2014 when I titrated slowly down, using Prozac the last month to stop.  The whole titration took about 1 year.  I had been lowered to 75 mg Effexor for the last 3 yrs before the titration began.

I used the counting beads method, and gained great help from supplementling with  Prozac the last month. 

 

In Jan 2016 I began ingesting strong skunk weed, in the form of edibles, and then stopped abruptly July 1, 2016. My daily dose of weed was a dash (spoon size of the measuring spoon I have) daily.   My reaction was acute anxiety.  July 5th I was prescribed Remeron 7.5 mg in the evening and Xanax 1mg twice per day ... 

 

August 4th my Xanax was replaced by Clonazepam .5 mg twice per day as the goal was to titrate, using a longer

acting benzo.  Titration on Clonazepam is expected to begin August 10th.


#7 dalsaan

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Posted 07 October 2016 - 12:35 PM

His explanation which is way above my pay grade. :)

http://www.psychotro...tranylcypromine

No matter what he wants to call it, I still found it very hard to get of even with a slow taper.

CS

If you read it carefully, he says it is an anti histamine. I have found him to be exactly right as my
taper is going so smoothly, I don't feel ANY problems at all.....Refer to my response to hopeful for more.
I will say it does wonders at night to put one at ease and to sleep. But it is a harmless antihistamine.
That has not been everyone's experience. You have been on Mirtazapine for a very short period of time
Please note - I am not a medical practitioner and I do not give medical advice. I offer an opinion based on my own experiences, reading and discussion with others.On Effexor for 2 months at the start of 2005. Had extreme insomnia as an adverse reaction. Changed to mirtazapine. Have been trying to get off since mid 2008 with numerous failures including CTs and slow (but not slow enough tapers)Have slow tapered at 10 per cent or less for years. I have liquid mirtazapine made at a compounding chemist.
Was on 1.6 ml as at 19 March 2014.
Dropped to 1.5 ml 7 June 2014. Dropped to 1.4 in about September.
Dropped to 1.3 on 20 December 2014. Dropped to 1.2 in mid Jan 2015.
Dropped to 1 ml in late Feb 2015. I think my old medication had run out of puff so I tried 1ml when I got the new stuff and it seems to be going ok. Sleep has been good over the last week (as of 13/3/15).
Dropped to 1/2 ml 14/11/15 Fatigue still there as are memory and cognition problems. Sleep is patchy but liveable compared to what it has been in the past.

>My intro post is here - http://survivinganti...ic/2250-dalsaan

#8 compsports

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Posted 07 October 2016 - 01:03 PM

Thanks Dalsaan for precisely echoing my thoughts.

 

I was on that "harmless antihistamine"  :rolleyes: for years which caused horrific rebound insomnia when I tried to get off of it even with a very slow taper.  And of course, all the other cognitive issues that come with withdrawal.   And being on it caused weight gain and contributed to a hearing loss.

 

The only reason I didn't get dismissed from a temp job when I was trying to get off of this "harmless drug"  :rolleyes: was I had a very understanding supervisor.   


Drug cocktail 1995 - 2010
Started taper of Adderall, Wellbutrin XL, Remeron, and Doxepin in 2006
Finished taper on June 10, 2010

Diagnosed with sleep apnea 2012 and on pap machine

Dealing with protracted sleep issues


#9 AntiDFree

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Posted 07 October 2016 - 01:46 PM

I started a sharp taper 8 weeks ago after I ran out. My Dad had a reserve supply of 15 mg tabs, which he takes for sleep. I started taking them when my 45mg tabs ran out. I began experiencing strong anxiety and increased emotional sensitivity, then increased my dose. I went back to my Dr. And got resupplied for 6 months. I quickly got back on them because they were exacerbating my Prozac withdrawal symptoms, which had began a steep increase of wave after wave of intense emotions. I will wait for months for the Prozac WD's to subside first then taper. My instincts tell me that Mirtazapine WDs', if I have them, will be milder and less intrusive. Although others have posted adverse reactions, I don't think my body is going to have as hard of a time as Prozac. I also benefit from the sedative side affect by taking it at bedtime, but like my prozac, I don't want my emotions and normal body sensations masked.
I like to feel what is going on inside me. I count it a blessing, even when the feelings are sadness or pain- that's normal to feel, just not necessarily in the measure that the WDs' are delivering. I have moments of more normal levels of emotional movements and they are often absolutely delightful to "feel," whereas before dropping the prozac and Klonazepam a felt disconnected from my emotions and they rarely surfaced unless in response to something very intense.
I guess it is safe to say that everyone is different in the way their body responds. My body is very sensitive to medications and it's own feelings, as I'm learning. The upside to increased sensitivity is that when I feel positive emotions like love, and connection to others, it is enriching rather than bland. I'm learning to be more and more open to the (so-called) negative emotions and realize that they too are necessary and go hand-in-hand with the positive emotions (Yen and Yang).
Stopped Klonazepam .05/twice/day November 2014 after a 2 week taper. Had been using it for twenty years.
Stopped Prozac with a two month taper in June to August of 2015 after being on it for 20 years.
As of November 24, 2016 I am still abstinent. Emotional surges have subsided to only occasional, mild and brief rawness.
The Universe supports you in your effort to become free of your psychmeds and works through your body to bring healing. Sometimes it's very trying and painful, but it is worth the journey through the emotions!!!

#10 Altostrata

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Posted 07 October 2016 - 06:40 PM

Boardwalk, why is this meaningful to you? Do you think you're tapering an antihistamine?

 

You are tapering a drug with some action as an antihistamine and strong effect on the nervous system. Some people interpret these effects as antidepressant. Mirtazapine is widely prescribed as an antidepressant. FDA information about mirtazapine https://www.drugs.co...ne-tablets.html

 

As others have noted above, a successful rate of taper is highly individual. When the taper is too precipitous, rebound insomnia can result, as well as other withdrawal symptoms typical of antidepressants: Surges of anxiety, nausea, depersonalization, dizziness, etc.


This is not medical advice. Discuss any decisions about your medical care with a knowledgeable medical practitioner.

"It has become appallingly obvious that our technology has surpassed our humanity." -- Albert Einstein

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#11 Terry4949

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Posted 08 October 2016 - 08:05 AM

I have been in protracted withdrawel for 3 years and I have just come of lyrica 75mg cold turkey as my doctor said that as I am getting no benifit from it we might as well stop it , and ibelieve it has set me back even further , believe it or not he has given me klonopine to help reduce the anxiety , but I am not going to take it , the thing is about mirtazapine wether he thinks they are a antidepressant or not I have reduced from 30mg to 15mg and it has been as bad as when I withdrew from Effexor , all these drugs effect the cns and when it is distabilized like ours , caution is always the best policy , I hope to get of Mirt as I hate it and I believe it is hampering my recovery , but I have always felt that it has had no effect on depression ,
100mg Effexor 2000 untill jan 2015 severe withdrawals . Tapered 4weeks.
Jan to end of Feb 4 weeks on 15mg mirtazapine 20mg quetiapine , tapered of both 2 weeks , severe withdrawals , still some from Effexor possibly
End of Feb 2015 to end of July 30mg citolapram tapered 2weeks severe withdrawal , anxiety high , bouts of sever depression , severe emotional moods
Currently on 30mg mirtazapine appx 5 months , high anxiety, March cut dose 22.5 mg going on to liquid still no improvements with the depression , also started sept 2015 200mg pregabalin , currently on 22.5mg mirtazapine tablet form doing really badly. Cut beginning of May remeron 20mg still bad anxiety,August 15mg remeron ,100mg pregablin , severe depression headaches anxiety , oct 2016 doctor stoped pregablin c/t , 15mg mirtazapine still no let up in physical symptoms ,high anxiety ,Nov 2016 remeron 13.5 mg , Jan 2017 mirtazapine stopped flouxetine20mg added by hospital admission, no choice , doing really badly , akathesia suicidel ,, Flouxetine c/t by hospital after 7 weeks 20mg daily , currently on nothing , God help me

#12 Boardwalk

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Posted 08 October 2016 - 12:15 PM

Boardwalk, why is this meaningful to you? Do you think you're tapering an antihistamine?

 

You are tapering a drug with some action as an antihistamine and strong effect on the nervous system. Some people interpret these effects as antidepressant. Mirtazapine is widely prescribed as an antidepressant. FDA information about mirtazapine https://www.drugs.co...ne-tablets.html

 

As others have noted above, a successful rate of taper is highly individual. When the taper is too precipitous, rebound insomnia can result, as well as other withdrawal symptoms typical of antidepressants: Surges of anxiety, nausea, depersonalization, dizziness, etc.

This is meaningful to me because I have to taper off of it and having heard this news that Mirtazapine does not affect serotonin levels in the brain made all the difference to me.  Like they all say, everyone is different and I have been reducing by 10% daily and felt nothing.

My apologies if others experiencing difficulties.


I was prescribed Effexor 150 mg for 15 yrs ending 2014 when I titrated slowly down, using Prozac the last month to stop.  The whole titration took about 1 year.  I had been lowered to 75 mg Effexor for the last 3 yrs before the titration began.

I used the counting beads method, and gained great help from supplementling with  Prozac the last month. 

 

In Jan 2016 I began ingesting strong skunk weed, in the form of edibles, and then stopped abruptly July 1, 2016. My daily dose of weed was a dash (spoon size of the measuring spoon I have) daily.   My reaction was acute anxiety.  July 5th I was prescribed Remeron 7.5 mg in the evening and Xanax 1mg twice per day ... 

 

August 4th my Xanax was replaced by Clonazepam .5 mg twice per day as the goal was to titrate, using a longer

acting benzo.  Titration on Clonazepam is expected to begin August 10th.


#13 scallywag

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Posted 09 October 2016 - 06:58 AM

Just a note for future reference: Boardwalk is tapering mirtazapine quickly because he has been on the medication for only 4 weeks. This pace, 10% daily, is not recommended, and especially not recommended for anyone who has been on Remeron/mirtazapine for longer than 4 weeks.


This is not medical advice. Discuss any decisions about your medical care with a knowledgeable medical practitioner.
1997-1999 Effexor; 2002-2005 Effexor XR 37.5 mg linear taper, dropping same #beads/week with bad results
Cymbalta (brand name), 60 mg 2012 - 2015; 20 mg to 7 mg in 2016, exact doses and dates in this post;
2017: 6.3 (58 beads) Feb. 1; 5.6 mg (52) Feb. 22; 5.4 mg (50) Mar. 15; 5.1 mg (47) Mar. 25; 4.9 mg (45) Apr. 5; 4.5 mg (42) Apr. 14; 3.5 mg (32) Apr. 26;
Current dose: 2.6 mg (24) 2017-May-17
+ Supplements: fish oil (1500 mg EPA/500 mg DHA), Vitamins: D3, K2, C; Minerals: Mg, Se, Cr, I, V
scallywag's Introduction
Online spreadsheet for dose taper calculations and nz11's THE WORKS spreadsheet


#14 genlady

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Posted 11 October 2016 - 07:57 PM

I have been in protracted withdrawel for 3 years and I have just come of lyrica 75mg cold turkey as my doctor said that as I am getting no benifit from it we might as well stop it , and ibelieve it has set me back even further , believe it or not he has given me klonopine to help reduce the anxiety , but I am not going to take it , the thing is about mirtazapine wether he thinks they are a antidepressant or not I have reduced from 30mg to 15mg and it has been as bad as when I withdrew from Effexor , all these drugs effect the cns and when it is distabilized like ours , caution is always the best policy , I hope to get of Mirt as I hate it and I believe it is hampering my recovery , but I have always felt that it has had no effect on depression ,

Lyrica is an anti seizure medication and is also used for pain.  It is not an anti depressant.


Medications: Started taking antidepressants in 1981, also benzos off and on; antiphychotics , anti-seizure for years.   Trazodone, Lamotrigine, Klonopin for over 10 years   all at maximum dosages,:Disconcontinued Klonopin in month of February 2011,  discontinued Trazodone and Lamotrigine   in month of March 2011 while in hosptial.  Given Seroquel to "help" go off Klonopin  gradually increased to 600 mg ; doctor took me off 600 mg. Seroquel in two weeks, and switched to Resperidal  because of weight gain on Seroquel, went off Resperidal quickly,   then gradually reinstated  Seroquel to 600 mg. at my request.   Went off Seroquel by myself at 25mg. per month in 2014.     Last medication Seroquel completely off since May 2016. Also went off Morphine at the same time as last 25 mg. of Seroquel in May 2016. Started tapering 40mg. to 35mg. Celexa on 11 Aug. 2016  ; 16 Oct. Celexa 32.5 mg.; 6 Nov. 2016:  30mg. , 50 mg abt. Feb 26 with occasional 30mg.  , 40 mg. Mar 20, 2017; 35mg. May 24., 2017

 

Supplements Magnesium: 400mg. 2x day., Omega 3's: 3,000 mg.Multi-Vitamin,Vitamin D:1,000 mg.   

Medications presently taking:  Celexa 40mg,  Lyrica 150mg. 2x day  , Synthroid 175mcg, Nasonex 2 sprays each nostril, once a day , hydromorphone ..5 mg four times a day and 1 mg. twice a day;  Furosemide 20mg. for 5 days.

 


#15 InvisibleUnless

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Posted 04 December 2016 - 12:29 PM

i dont understand three theories people have mentioned here so far, including the implications in the article under discussion:

 

1. serotonergic changes = antidepressant properties (or the converse, especially given the statistically insignificant clinical trial outcomes for SSRIs)

2. no strong affinity for serotonin receptors = "does not affect serotonin levels in the brain"

3. antihistamine = no worries about withdrawal syndrome

 

each of them is incorrect.  what we classify a medication as is not strictly based on binding activity or experiential results, and does not specify whether a withdrawal syndrome or rebound phenomena may occur during dose reductions or following complete cessation.  so, to clarify:

 

1. no particular focus or action "makes" something an antidepressant - that is strictly a marketing term and no chemical "antidepresses"

2. neurotransmitter activity is intermodulatory between receptor types and systems - histaminic action does not happen in a vacuum, isolated from everything else like serotonergic functioning

3. antihistamines as a class, most of which are very clearly psychotropic, can commonly involve withdrawal syndromes and neuropsychiatric rebound effects

 

as with any drugs, some people have an easier time quitting them than others.  we cannot generalize personal experiences to determine what others will experience, though they should serve as limited information on what can be experienced.  anyone wanting sources for these clarifications is free to make a request.  i am ever in the process of compiling a personal library, and cataloguing relevant links to medical journals.


from 2005-2012, i spent 7 years taking 17 different psychotropic medications covering several classes.  i would be taking 3-7 medications at a time, and 6 out of the 17 medications listed below were maxed or overmaxed in clinical dosage before i moved on to trying the next unhelpful cocktail.
 
antidepressants (SSRIs, SNRIs, NDRIs, tetracyclics): zoloft, wellbutrin, effexor, lexapro, prozac, cymbalta, remeron
antipsychotics (atypical): abilify, zyprexa, risperdal, geodon
sleep aids (benzos, off-label antidepressants & antipsychotics, hypnotics): seroquel, temazepam, trazodone, ambien
anxiolytics: buspar
anticonvulsants: topamax
 
i tapered off all psychotropics from late 2011 through early 2013, one by one.  for all 5 years since quitting, ive been cycling through severe, disabling withdrawal symptoms spanning the gamut of the serious, less serious, and rather worrisome side effects of these assorted medications.  previous cross-tapering and medication or dosage changes had also caused undiagnosed withdrawal symptoms.
 
brainpan addlepation


#16 btdt

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Posted 10 December 2016 - 11:42 AM

I would not get too excited about this all ADs were based on an antihistamine... most or all as far as I know have anti histamine action which causes the histamine problems when you try to taper off.... also why I don't suggest using an antihistamine for sleep ect in wd ... I did it a couple of times after not sleeping 4 days that was my cut off point... after that I was nut house material... so chose 1/3 of a benadryl over hosp... and it worked I slept but always felt my overall withdrawal was pushed back by taking it. 

 

We have learned a lot since I did hard withdrawal 9 years ago... what surprises me some is a doctor did not know these drugs were all based on antihistamines so will have some of their effects... some of the time so many types now... 

 

from what I read when I was going thru it some people get addicted to antihistamines using them to get thru wd... just replacing one drug for another... 

peace


WARNING THIS WILL BE LONG
Had a car accident in 85
Codeine was the pain med when I was release from hosp continuous use till 89
Given PROZAC by a specialist to help with nerve pain in my leg 89-90 not sure which year
Was not told a thing about it being a psych med thought it was a pain killer no info about psych side effects I went nuts had hallucinations. As I had a head injury and was diagnosed with a concussion in 85 I was sent to a head injury clinic in 1990 five years after the accident. I don't think they knew I had been on prozac I did not think it a big deal and never did finish the bottle of pills. I had tests of course lots of them. Was put into a pain clinic and given amitriptyline which stopped the withdrawal but had many side effects. But I could sleep something I had not done in a very long time the pain lessened. My mother got cancer in 94 they switched my meds to Zoloft to help deal with this pressure as I was her main care giver she died in 96. I stopped zoloft in 96 had withdrawal was put on paxil went nutty quit it ct put on resperidol quit it ct had withdrawal was put on Effexor... 2years later celexa was added 20mg then increased to 40mg huge personality change went wild. Did too fast taper off Celexa 05 as I felt unwell for a long time prior... quit Effexor 150mg ct 07 found ****** 8 months into withdrawal learned some things was banned from there in 08 have kept learning since. there is really not enough room here to put my history but I have a lot of opinions about a lot of things especially any of the drugs mentioned above.
One thing I would like to add here is this tidbit ALL OPIATES INCREASE SEROTONIN it is not a huge jump to being in chronic pain to being put on an ssri/snri and opiates will affect your antidepressants and your thinking.

As I do not update much I will put my quit date Nov. 17 2007 I quit Effexor cold turkey. 

http://survivinganti...ng-myself-btdt/

There is a crack in everything ..That's how the light gets in :)


#17 TeaBea

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Posted 17 March 2017 - 07:29 AM

I'm just now wandering outside the Relationship forum.....  

 

This thing about these meds being "antihistamines"?  My husband has been complaining about his lips getting really red and sometimes full-face "flushing" (blushing) after he gets to work of a morning.  He's a bit embarrassed by it, so he's complained off-and-on about it.  I asked him when he first noticed this happening and it's around the same time-frame as when he started his w/d from Effexor.  I always just thought it was a coincidence.

 

Lips are not red before leaving for work.  He takes his very low amount of Effexor (approx. 9 mg) right before leaving for work.  After getting there, he notices red lips.  Could this possibly be related to Effexor w/d?

 

Thanks.