Stormstrong

Discussion about Kelly Brogan, one blogger claims Brogan "is a quack"

24 posts in this topic

I actually feel this nurse has some valid points.  And Dr. Brogan is not without faults.   I had an interaction with her early on in my depression period where I felt quite shamed over the phone for requesting medication for my depression.  I am not throwing out the help she has to offer but I know of another person who was shamed and refused by Dr. Brogan for asking her for a temporary prescription (this person was a patient of Dr. Brogans). 

 

There are many ways to treat depression and cancer.  It is not a one size fits all approach.  A dear friend of mine's life was saved by chemotherapy and radiation and then did some acupuncture once the brain tumor was gone.  I also tried numerous holistic treatments when I was depressed and if one of them had worked for me, I would have committed to that route but I was in such a state of mental free fall that only medication, and many wrongs ones, stopped me from going into a hospital.  I don't like antidepressants, nor do I like how they are prescribed like candy.  However, I feel they crudely shut down the part of my brain that was fried. 

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I see it a little differently from you Hibari.

 

Good on Dr Brogan for refusing to prescribe antidepressants and take such a firm stand. Thats what i say.

Wow what a doctor. We need more doctors like that.

 

Temporary prescriptions have the habit of morphing into a 'need to take for life' prescription very quickly.

 

KB is doing you and many others a big life saving favour.

Sadly i see inspite of KBs nonprescribing  you no doubt found a person who was all too willing to put you on this drug merry-go -round.

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Wow, the RN did a 10 part series refuting Dr. Brogan.   In quickly glancing at it, she sounds like a big time big pharma apologist.   And anyone who questions the studies is anti-science.  Yup, we have seen that movie before.

 

But Hibari, I find your post disturbing having known about holistic psychiatrists who also refused to prescribe psych medication on a temporary basis. So nz11, I have to disagree with you about your position.  If someone is in severe crisis and needs the meds, that should be their choice as long as they are making a fully informed decision.

 

Regarding cancer treatment, I have mixed emotions.   I know someone whose life has been prolonged several years due to chemotherapy.   But I know someone else who never should have had surgery as his cancer was way too advanced.   This person died shortly after having it.

 

I think as long as people are given a fully informed choice, it should be up to them.   Not sure what I would do if I had cancer because I fear I would be prone to all the horrific side effect of chemotherapy that would completely destroy the quality of my life.

 

Anyway, I have some reading to do.

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A search on "quackwatch" gives up nothing.

(I know nussink 'bout her or the blogger.)

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I love healthy discussion of topics like this.  I am writing passionately about it but have no ill will even towards KB in my posts. 

 

No, NZ  from my perspective, KB did not do me a favor.  Since she was unwilling to even listen that closely, I had no chance to explain who I was, a very holistic person who was struggling and unlikely to take medication blindly.  I actually went to 5 different psychiatrist, one being a holistic who also wanted to prescribe Ritalin at the end of the day because I was so down.  I was able to refuse even in the darkest of my despair. 

 

I don't like rigidity in any practitioner.  When KB refused her own patient, I feel she was saying "I don't trust you to know yourself".   In fact, the person I mentioned was not a long term medication person but a person in crisis.   There are many people on this site and on Beyond Meds who have to take a certain medication for a short period, sometimes a benzo, to get through their wd.  I trust them to know what they need.  It's not a failure to need a med to get through something. 

 

If I had started with the last psychiatrist I am with now, my medication journey would have been shorter.  He got , that meds should be prescribed sparingly and for short term.  I had to educate him on the withdrawal piece but I made the decision to come off, not him.  And he did not distrust my choice, just the pace.  But there was no budging on my pat.  

 

I also know that their are psychiatrists,  and I had them, who are just awful and clueless.  Their method of prescribing is criminal.  Again, I am not pro antidepressants.  My own journey of getting off them has been hellish but at the time of my depression, nothing else worked.  

 

Compsport, yes, there are also patients who receive chemo and radiation who don't make it-my father being one of them.  There are also people who should never be pushed to surgery.  I also know of a acupuncturist who had colon cancer and turned to the late Dr. Nicholas Gonzalez, a leader in holistic medicine for cancer.  (I also went to him over 20 years ago, did his detox treatment and he also prescribed a thyroid medication).  Dr. G told the acupuncturist to get surgery rather than try to heal it through holistic means.  She did and is grateful to his suggestion as she is cancer free. 

 

What I am trying to express is that we are to be trusted as individuals.  We have the right to get off meds, we have a right to refuse them, we have the right to ask for them.  We are to be trusted with our own physical and mental health choices. 

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It's not a failure to need a med to get through something.

 

Sadly its this kind of pharmaceutical indoctrinated doctor talk that pushed many on this site into the situation they now find themselves in.

 

I'm all into choosing for oneself but how can a person make an informed decision when the truth is being hidden, data manipulated for marketing purposes risks understated and benefits so exaggerated.  they would no doubt meet the definition of a lie. and lets not forget the dirtiest little secret of all 'addiction' which is completely denied. Look at the McLaren quote in my drug sig on the nature of paroxetine  i can guarantee you people have not been told anything like that.

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Ok, the nurse is alleging that Brogan will fire patients for not adhering precisely to the recommended protocol.    True or not?

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On 2016-12-19 at 0:29 PM, nz11 said:

It's not a failure to need a med to get through something.

 

Sadly its this kind of pharmaceutical indoctrinated doctor talk that pushed many on this site into the situation they now find themselves in.

 

I'm all into choosing for oneself but how can a person make an informed decision when the truth is being hidden, data manipulated for marketing purposes risks understated and benefits so exaggerated.  they would no doubt meet the definition of a lie. and lets not forget the dirtiest little secret of all 'addiction' which is completely denied. Look at the McLaren quote in my drug sig on the nature of paroxetine  i can guarantee you people have not been told anything like that.

 

You raise some good points NZ11 but many people don't need data to know they need a rescue med temporarily.

.

Edited by scallywag
restored quote because it wasn't the post immediately above this one

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Ok, the nurse is alleging that Brogan will fire patients for not adhering precisely to the recommended protocol.    True or not?

I don't know about that.

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It's not a failure to need a med to get through something.

 

Sadly its this kind of pharmaceutical indoctrinated doctor talk that pushed many on this site into the situation they now find themselves in.

 

I'm all into choosing for oneself but how can a person make an informed decision when the truth is being hidden, data manipulated for marketing purposes risks understated and benefits so exaggerated.  they would no doubt meet the definition of a lie. and lets not forget the dirtiest little secret of all 'addiction' which is completely denied. Look at the McLaren quote in my drug sig on the nature of paroxetine  i can guarantee you people have not been told anything like that.

Yes, I agree there are many psychiatrists and doctors who use this line right before they prescribe a medication.  It is a terrible thing to say to someone who is already struggling.  And how these drugs end up affecting us is also horrible.

 

The real point I was trying to make,  and it comes from my personal journey,  is that rigidity in any doctor is not helpful.  I have run into both holistic doctors who were rigid and closed to their patient's experience and the same with western medical doctors.   When I said, It is not a failure to need a med to get through something, I meant it as Compsport interpreted it.  We are to be trusted with knowing what we need and don't need.  No one should feel that they are viewed through a specific lens and that lens only. 

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Well i had a read of some of that stuff in the link from the op and it seems to me its the usual pharma response.

 

 

 

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Agreed. Rescue med ?  What is that ?

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Agreed. Rescue med ?  What is that ?

It means taking a med if things are so out of control that nonmed coping techniques don't work and you are in danger of being hospitalized.    Jim Gottstein gives a good example of this as he talks about taking medication on a PRN basis.

 

http://www.mindfreedom.org/personal-stories/gottsteinjim

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That might be a " slippery slope" but in extreme cases maybe it's warranted if all else fails. Not sure. I would hope that it doesn't get to that stage - ever.

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It could be a slippery slope but it seems to work well for Mr. Gottstein.     Another person who takes them on an as needed basis but rarely is  Keris Myrick, former President of NAMI and a past blogger on the MIA site.   She has a diagnosis of schizoaffective and obsessive compulsive disorder. 

 

https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/mad-in-america/201111/rorschach-test-psych-meds

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That article was in 2011 be interesting to hear from that person today.

Anyone who takes this stuff on an as needed basis is playing with fire.

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I realized I never said this clearly in my first post.  I don't think Kelly Brogan is a quack.   I try to view each practitioner as fairly as I can and now that my mind is clearer from dropping down on my meds, I can see what works for me.  As they say in program, "take what you like and leave the rest". 

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I just wanted to say that i don't like the title of this thread.

 

It would be great if the op could request it to be changed.

This title will appear in google searches and may influence others to believe untruths.

 

KB says that she does not prescribe and for that she is a hero. She is one of us, she is on our side. She 'gets it'.

 

nz11

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Wow. Amazing how much energy that blogger put into defending what she calls "science," which implies objectivity, when we know that the science she's talking about is subject to the financial concerns of the pharmaceutical companies that are carrying it out. I wish she had read Anatomy of An Epidemic instead of A Mind of Your Own.....she'd get some real science there. 

 

Interestingly, I came across one point on which I completely agree. She writes, " Dr. Brogan’s very detailed and specific meal plan is not only expensive but would take a lot of energy to put into to place and follow on a daily basis. Dr. Brogan states that she will fire a patient if they don’t follow her meal plan, which would effectively weed out any of the clinically depressed or financially strapped patients who lack the energy or finances to complete her program. If a doctor demanded that all of his patients with Parkinson’s disease be able to jog one mile a day before they could continue to be under his care, then it would be easy for that doctor to claim that he has found the cure for Parkinson’s Disease as he has weeded out all of the progressed cases in which a patient would not be able to jog and therefore didn’t fit into his narrowly selected, one-sided views of the illness he has claimed to found a cure for."

 

She has a point there. Dr. Brogan's program is really only feasible for someone with a lot of money to spend on food and supplements, and a lot of time and energy to spend cooking (and many women have to cook for their whole families, so this would either mean getting the whole family to agree to radical diet change, or cooking separate meals for herself on top of what she cooks for the family). My bigger issue with her plan, though, is that she does what psychiatry does: reduce depression to an easily identifiable physical cause (inflammation rather than brain chemistry) and claims that it can be eradicated by swallowing something (supplements and better food rather than drugs). 

 

I do admire her a lot and think there's a lot of good information in her book and especially in her blogs, which delve into the spiritual and societal causes of depression that are not even mentioned in her book. Exploring those, for me, is where healing lies. 

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NZ11. my friend feels that taking Trazadone for sleep has made a big difference in her life.  It would be very arrogant of me to say she was playing with fire.   

 

Rachelina, your most recent post is why I find dealing with healthcare providers of all stripes so frustrating.   The mainstream folks like the nurse think drugs are the answer to everything and accuses anyone of questioning their efficiency as being quacks and anti science.

 

But folks like Brogan charge outrageous prices for services and also advocate what I feel are questionable philosophies.   For example, she says this about someone with diabetes:

 

""We also know that the autonomic nervous system and associated individualized differences in pancreatic innervation can dictate whether one person thrives on a high carb (whole food) diet and another tanks on it. I’ll never forget the feeling of shattered nutrition dogma when Dr. Gonzalez discussed with me a patient of his whose insulin-dependent diabetes had resolved on a prescribed high carb vegetarian diet complete with multiple glasses of carrot juice daily. (We will be publishing this case soon!)""

 

Uh, without extensive blood sugar testing on a glucometer, this proves absolutely nothing.  It is also is totally contrary to the experiences of many diabetics who found that even eating "good" carbs greatly spiked their blood sugar.

 

CS

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I agree with compsports and Rachelina.  Just because KB is anti-psych drug doesn't mean she is 'right on everything' and should receive a blank check without scrutiny.  Her book and her website make several claims that are loosely based on science, especially around the burgeoning understanding of 'gut health.'  Some people may point to her degree from MIT as validation for her methods or thoughts except that blindly following the word of people with prestigious degrees is how many of us got to this point to begin with.  Higher education degrees generate highly specialized, singular focused individuals who will often use their degrees as justification for claims outside the scope of their study. 

 

As it pertains to the limited use of psych drugs, before I got into this whole debacle, I was given a benzo twice before two separate surgeries and they worked well (just before anesthesia).  Amphetamines, as well, have legit uses in some circumstances where the benefits outweigh the risks.  Some of these drugs do have legitimate uses (excluding anti-depressants and anti-psychotics in my personal opinion), however, through first hand experience I believe none should be used for an extended period of time.   

 

If there's any hope of reforming the prescribing practices of psych-drugs, it lies in a middle ground that SOME of the drugs have LIMITED reasons for being used and LITTLE TO NONE of the drugs have justification/are safe for long term use. 

 

 

Not to mention KB has positioned herself as an 'exclusive' womens; mental health provider that charges absurd fees.  This alone should raise flags. She is positioning herself as a 'MD celebrity' of the same ilk as the many daytime TV and book-mill doctors whose primary goal is revenue and not science based medicine. 

 

The overarching problem is dogma and/or ideology.  KB most definitely has a dogma all her own, and just because it causes less or no harm compared to psych-drugs doesn't make it true.

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I agree with compsports and Rachelina.  Just because KB is anti-psych drug doesn't mean she is 'right on everything' and should receive a blank check without scrutiny.  Her book and her website make several claims that are loosely based on science, especially around the burgeoning understanding of 'gut health.'  Some people may point to her degree from MIT as validation for her methods or thoughts except that blindly following the word of people with prestigious degrees is how many of us got to this point to begin with.  Higher education degrees generate highly specialized, singular focused individuals who will often use their degrees as justification for claims outside the scope of their study. 

 

I do believe that every doctor who speaks about the dangers of psychotropics needs to preface their message with the fact that those who are already on psychotropics need to do understand that coming off of any psychotropics can be potentially dangerous. I think it was around the 2005-2007 when I was on 10 or 20mg Prozac (depending on how depressed I was) and my life was pretty good, that I started reading more and more articles about the SSRI's not being effective, and so on. This gave me a false sense of security that I could probably stop taking it, as my life was actually quite decent at the moment. This made me naively cold turkey the entire 20mg of Prozac in 2008 for a month (followed by a quick reinstatement), which resulted in a very bleak depression, which I only now understand to have been an SSRI withdrawal. As long as she and all the doctors preface their speeches and talks about the potential dangers of coming off, or provide some guidance (as Dr. Breggin did in his book "Psychiatric Drug Withdrawal"), I am fine with her message.

 

Most mental health advocates like Will Hall, who I greatly respect, have to give out that disclaimer for legal reasons before they can say anything. I don't see why Doctors shouldn't give out the same disclaimer up-front. That also goes for the doctor who prescribed me Prozac first. Informed consent :)

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Thoughts on the well known Holistic Psychriatist, Kelly Brogan?

 

http://kellybroganmd.com/vitalmindreset/

 

seems like she knows her stuff but her online therapy course is $700!!!! Makes me think it's bogus bc it's so much? I don't know! 

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