powerback: tapering no 2

[peng]

Your profile says you are on 37.5mg, pb, but you are talking about removing a bead/beads.  So what are you on currently?

To me - just my opinion - you sound so desperately suffering like you should have been holding at some dose above 37.5mg.  Remaining on the last plateau where you felt reasonably stable. No?

 

Heck, I am on 112.5mg (tapered from 225mg in a year), am holding due to imminent house move yet think I sound in 80% better condition than yourself.

I am 72 and do flight-of-steps exercise every other day, 118-134bpm.  I have my own demons to fight, but what I hear from you makes me think you have got an unsuitable plan of action in place.

Personally, I have put aside the ambitious thought, or obsession, of getting to zero medication for now.  The sad fact is, I believe, some of us may not be able to completely fulfil that desire.  This is the nature of the beast - whether it be the illness or the chemical.  Doesn't mean we cannot attempt it if circumstances and progress permit, though.

 

If I were on 37.5mg or 75mg and felt OK, I would be delighted with that. 

 

Remember, the key word in WD on here is patience.  Directing hate at doctors, this hellish medication and other things in life, so much, as you seem to be,  will not help at all.

If I am wrong, and it is merely a facet of bitter determination, I hope it sees you through. 

 

Sorry if I sound like I am giving you a good telling off, not really meaning to hurt you, view it as a fatherly jolt to help you sharpen up and check out your tactics.  Rushing forward like a headless chicken is not the best ploy for any of us on here, I would suggest.

 

Best wishes, man.

 

[powerback]

1 hour ago, peng said:

Your profile says you are on 37.5mg, pb, but you are talking about removing a bead/beads.  So what are you on currently?

To me - just my opinion - you sound so desperately suffering like you should have been holding at some dose above 37.5mg.  Remaining on the last plateau where you felt reasonably stable. No?

 

Heck, I am on 112.5mg (tapered from 225mg in a year), am holding due to imminent house move yet think I sound in 80% better condition than yourself.

I am 72 and do flight-of-steps exercise every other day, 118-134bpm.  I have my own demons to fight, but what I hear from you makes me think you have got an unsuitable plan of action in place.

Personally, I have put aside the ambitious thought, or obsession, of getting to zero medication for now.  The sad fact is, I believe, some of us may not be able to completely fulfil that desire.  This is the nature of the beast - whether it be the illness or the chemical.  Doesn't mean we cannot attempt it if circumstances and progress permit, though.

 

If I were on 37.5mg or 75mg and felt OK, I would be delighted with that. 

 

Remember, the key word in WD on here is patience.  Directing hate at doctors, this hellish medication and other things in life, so much, as you seem to be,  will not help at all.

If I am wrong, and it is merely a facet of bitter determination, I hope it sees you through. 

 

Sorry if I sound like I am giving you a good telling off, not really meaning to hurt you, view it as a fatherly jolt to help you sharpen up and check out your tactics.  Rushing forward like a headless chicken is not the best ploy for any of us on here, I would suggest.

 

Best wishes, man.

 

Hi peng your grand I appreciate and welcome any input or criticism ,ye its quiet the mess ,holding or going up doesn't seem to be an option for me ,from what I read going back to 75mg I was on 2 years ago wont stop these symptoms because the damage done to my nervous system .but if it gets any worse I mite have no option but to try something ,lately its getting to the point 95% constant on the brink .

 

because I've had symptoms taking the drug/poop out ,my only options are off or up dose .

 

I just wish I knew this 2 years ago when doctor said ide be fine going from 75mg to 37.5 .so my ego will have to cope with criticism of being a case of what not to do with these drugs .

I always welcome knowledgeable experience input .thanks for your input .

I  must update signature thanks for pointing that out .

Take care .

PB

[powerback]

I have a question and of course I realise no drugs can be recommended ,but peng has made me think of something .

if I'm in such a state do I double my dose to 75mg and hope my symptoms go away and do the long game of 3 years or so with taper  ,or white knuckle the next 6 months on taper ..It has never been perfect the whole time on the drugs so its a disaster .

The irony is these dam drugs mite have to be my reality because I've got such  disturbing symptoms .

[peng]

Please, wait for mods to answer your question about updosing or not, powerback.  They know best.

 

Personally, from my own experience, I would think you need to updose, but I am sure going up to 75mg would not be approved.

They will probably suggest an amount in beads.

 

Anyway, thanks for being so big-hearted about my, hopefully helpful, criticism!  That style should stand you in good stead for your getting to a new stable platform from which to further proceed.  Remember, the 37.5 and 75 are just numbers and someday you can tackle making them smaller.  Diminishing your prevailing pain and anguish is the main priority.   Attacking the numbers with renewed strength and stability when you feel more settled is something for the future.

 

Best wishes for you!

[powerback]

16 minutes ago, peng said:

Please, wait for mods to answer your question about updosing or not, powerback.  They know best.

 

Personally, from my own experience, I would think you need to updose, but I am sure going up to 75mg would not be approved.

They will probably suggest an amount in beads.

 

Anyway, thanks for being so big-hearted about my, hopefully helpful, criticism!  That style should stand you in good stead for your getting to a new stable platform from which to further proceed.  Remember, the 37.5 and 75 are just numbers and someday you can tackle making them smaller.  Diminishing your prevailing pain and anguish is the main thing.   Attacking the numbers with renewed strength and stability when you feel more settled is something for the future.

 

Best wishes for you!

yep its such a dilemma I mite have to try the 75 ,my problem has been I've become so brain dead for way to long its hindered my decision making .

last year I got by with symptoms but my brain snapped in November [I refused Zyprexa and hospital admission ]

there has been stressors and diet the last month that have contributed to this level of severity but it is becoming impossible .

 

from some reading here going up doesn't guarantee anything .

 

my noise sensitivity is back to were it was in November after the withdrawal induced breakdown

 

the irony of the situation is tragic to be honest ,these drugs have wreaked havoc on me and its what I mite need to get peace.

 

there's one or two symptoms that I need to watch out for if they happen again I need to be  sedated let alone an antidepressant .

Anyhow I keep trucking as they say .

 

Glad to have your insight .

PB

 

[powerback]

Could a moderator give me there take on this .

 I have never been  stable taking the 37.5 for more than 2 years .

November =somewhat of a breakdown [refused Zyprexa and hospital]

lately I'm getting into extreme states of panic on a daily basis .

cognitive functioning debilitating

I'm well aware my damage was originated from 75mg to 37.5 without taper [sadly I was under the spell of doctors trust and belief in there rhetoric at the time  ]

from what I read here ,all bets are off after so long ?

I've genuine concern I'm loosing my marbles

much respect

PB

[scallywag]

When we say stable, we don't mean no symptoms or light symptoms. We mean that your symptoms don't vary wildly within a day or day to day.  Are your symptoms changing or more of a "new day, same level of awful" ?

[powerback]

18 hours ago, scallywag said:

When we say stable, we don't mean no symptoms or light symptoms. We mean that your symptoms don't vary wildly within a day or day to day.  Are your symptoms changing or more of a "new day, same level of awful" ?

hi scallywag thanks for reply

waking up has been the same for a good while now ,anxiety and panic has increased with intrusive thoughts .

Probably just keep going if I want off the drug I suppose .

[powerback]

Hi folks , I need to be pinched ,yesterday I woke up and I was experiencing a decent sense of myself of old and had a decent day  ,but this morning I woke and I'm unnerved but extremely happy ,the first time in maybe a year I've  felt "normal". This is just brilliant for me to feel human ,of course I've a long road ahead like us all but this will go into my memory bank for the future fight .

I'm thankful for glimpse of what life can be so never give up .

PB

[ChessieCat]

That's great news and I'm glad you posted about it so you can refer back to it in the future if needed.

[peng]

Yes, great news, pb.  Hope for more of these. 

It would be wonderful if you have broken the back of this long hold at 37.5mg.

[powerback]

thanks Peng/chessie  cat .there was a scorpions tail aspect to it ,but it has to be taken in a positive light and keep on the path .

[Distraut]

Powerback, that is wonderful news and I am so pleased for you!  It just shows that things CAN change in unexpected ways, even after feeling particularly bad.

 

I am so hoping that something similar will happen for my son Akrontes who has been in a bad way himself over the last few days.  He has no hope at all at present.

 

Rooting for you!

[ShakeyJerr]

On 7/23/2017 at 2:46 AM, powerback said:

Hi folks , I need to be pinched ,yesterday I woke up and I was experiencing a decent sense of myself of old and had a decent day  ,but this morning I woke and I'm unnerved but extremely happy ,the first time in maybe a year I've  felt "normal". This is just brilliant for me to feel human ,of course I've a long road ahead like us all but this will go into my memory bank for the future fight .

I'm thankful for glimpse of what life can be so never give up .

PB

 

Awesome news, my friend!

 

SJ

[powerback]

23 hours ago, Distraut said:

Powerback, that is wonderful news and I am so pleased for you!  It just shows that things CAN change in unexpected ways, even after feeling particularly bad.

 

I am so hoping that something similar will happen for my son Akrontes who has been in a bad way himself over the last few days.  He has no hope at all at present.

 

Rooting for you!

hi distraut and SJ thanks for the comments and encouragement .that episode of feeling "normal" lasted about 2 hours but I needd to post it ,as we all know this withdrawl is an astonishing experience .

take care folks and never give in ,I'm still experiencing a lot of symptoms but the fact I'm on bead number 2 of taper out makes it feel like progress .

 

[powerback]

I'm currently on bead number 2 out of capsule .micro taper

Am I correct in thinking 1 bead =1mg

I wont bore with the symptoms 

[powerback]

does anyone else have the constant feeling of not being able to retain information and needing to constantly remind themselves ,like rebooting the hard drive per say ?

my latest thing is constantly watching videos on kefir ,I have been making my own .

[mammaP]

On 31/07/2017 at 7:15 PM, powerback said:

I'm currently on bead number 2 out of capsule .micro taper

Am I correct in thinking 1 bead =1mg

I wont bore with the symptoms 

How many beads are in the capsule PB?   It might be better if you hold a bit longer before moving on to the next bead. You had a nice window when you were one bead out which is a fantastic sign. Having tapered effexor myself I can ralate to that feeling of wanting off asap but holding can be essential to get off with as little discomfort as possible. It is a difficult drug to taper because at the lower doses and you are taking out beads you can't get 10% of the previous dose which means the cuts get bigger.  Holding is a test of patience, I didn't have that patience and took a year to taper, then had to reinstate because of withdrawal and it took months before I could start to taper again. Those few months were like swings and roundabouts, up and down and round and round with dizzy spells and of course those awful electric shocks in the brain that feel like someone has touched your actual raw brain with an electric cable. Honestly it just isn't worth it!  Hold until you have been stable for at least 2 weeks. You will get there in the end, even snails get where they want to be eventually. (except the one that I accidentally stood on last night, he aint going anywhere now.) 

[powerback]

10 hours ago, mammaP said:

How many beads are in the capsule PB?   It might be better if you hold a bit longer before moving on to the next bead. You had a nice window when you were one bead out which is a fantastic sign. Having tapered effexor myself I can ralate to that feeling of wanting off asap but holding can be essential to get off with as little discomfort as possible. It is a difficult drug to taper because at the lower doses and you are taking out beads you can't get 10% of the previous dose which means the cuts get bigger.  Holding is a test of patience, I didn't have that patience and took a year to taper, then had to reinstate because of withdrawal and it took months before I could start to taper again. Those few months were like swings and roundabouts, up and down and round and round with dizzy spells and of course those awful electric shocks in the brain that feel like someone has touched your actual raw brain with an electric cable. Honestly it just isn't worth it!  Hold until you have been stable for at least 2 weeks. You will get there in the end, even snails get where they want to be eventually. (except the one that I accidentally stood on last night, he aint going anywhere now.) 

thanks Mammap ,I appreciate your reply .

ye ile take heed of what you say about patience and going too fast .

the last time I counted 120 beads in capsule .

 the snails comment gave me a chuckle .

there is still loads of symptoms but I am noticing other little positive changes ,just patience, patience, patience is the goal .

hope you doing well yourself .we can forget in our quest to be better that yous mods are going through this also ,I'm impressed greatly by all of yous .

take care

PB

[powerback]

Question :have  many people looked into the gene test about these drugs .

1 what's the price .[probably expensive ]

2 what results or experience is out there .

3 are doctors going to be defensive about giving the test ,because if it comes back that the test says we shouldn't be on the drugs .it has just undermined there prescription pad .

PB

 

 

 

[powerback]

woke today and depression and triggers unrelenting ,very strong emotional pain feeling  in my chest .

I realised the worst thing to do was stay in bed so got out for a good few hours walk ,nice off the beaten track in nature.

I sat down and watched the birds and it was a nice few hours in the sun .

totally much better the fact I got out and away from society's triggers if only for a few hours .

got to keep pushing through hell I suppose .

I believe we got to try different things even if we are suffering, I was even daydreaming watching the cows munch on grass

PB

[ShakeyJerr]

1 hour ago, powerback said:

woke today and depression and triggers unrelenting ,very strong emotional pain feeling  in my chest .

I realised the worst thing to do was stay in bed so got out for a good few hours walk ,nice off the beaten track in nature.

I sat down and watched the birds and it was a nice few hours in the sun .

totally much better the fact I got out and away from society's triggers if only for a few hours .

got to keep pushing through hell I suppose .

I believe we got to try different things even if we are suffering, I was even daydreaming watching the cows munch on grass

PB

 

You definitely did the right thing getting out of the house! Glad you are feeling better.

 

SJ

[powerback]

14 minutes ago, ShakeyJerr said:

 

You definitely did the right thing getting out of the house! Glad you are feeling better.

 

SJ

ide disagree about  feeling better SJ ,a pretty stinker of a day ,an awful lot of negative emotion resurfacing ,I better find a good way to channel it or it will destroy me and my relationships .but getting out of the house was a must .

some personal stuff going on is eating me apart so I need to act fast to stop it but the usual ruminating is relentless .

thanks for calling by I appreciate it .sorry if there's a trigger in my post .

I hope you get your window soon you deserve it .

[ShakeyJerr]

Feel Better, my friend. You'll get your window!

 

SJ

[powerback]

Just now, ShakeyJerr said:

Feel Better, my friend. You'll get your window!

 

SJ

Thanks SJ  you too we all deserve it .

 

[powerback]

a couple of days in on bead 3 out and the morning mucus is back and the  constant sore throat that I had going from 75 to 37.5 two years ago ,I wont bore with the rest of the symptoms .craving all the unhealthy food ,its a challenge to resist .

[AliG]

PB. I hope you felt stable before you tapered down. It is so important to feel like you are at that stable place first before tapering, particularly if symptoms are re-emerging.There is a tendency to want to go too fast in withdrawal but ultimately it can catch up with you. As always slow and steady wins the race.

 

You asked about gene tests- personally, I wouldn't bother but it's up to you .Most find it's counter - productive and often/ usually reveals nothing.

 

This really isn't about genes - It's about the drugs! It takes time to get off them. In my experience TIME is the great healer and there is really nothing that replaces that in the end. It is what it is and it pays to accept that and forge on regardless. Acceptance and time is key.    

[peng]

Agree with AliG, she is experienced mod and I am just another effexor victim.

I would not remove any more beads for a while.

Relatively speaking, you are hardly on anything, anyway, powerback, and reading your posts each day you do not sound as if you are resting on somewhere stable.

Just sayin'!

Best wishes, bhoy.

[powerback]

3 hours ago, AliG said:

PB. I hope you felt stable before you tapered down. It is so important to feel like you are at that stable place first before tapering, particularly if symptoms are re-emerging.There is a tendency to want to go too fast in withdrawal but ultimately it can catch up with you. As always slow and steady wins the race.

 

You asked about gene tests- personally, I wouldn't bother but it's up to you .Most find it's counter - productive and often/ usually reveals nothing.

 

This really isn't about genes - It's about the drugs! It takes time to get off them. In my experience TIME is the great healer and there is really nothing that replaces that in the end. It is what it is and it pays to accept that and forge on regardless. Acceptance and time is key.    

Hi ALIG thanks for your reply ,ile have to just keep going because I've had symptoms for 2 years [ doctor said 75 to 37.5mg no problem ],so I believe my case is one of the protracted withdrawls .I put up information and try to help others but if I'm honest its been a disaster since Christmas .

so my ability to control my taper has been long gone 2 years ago .if I don't keep going ile end up believing the rhetoric of a chemical imbalance and have to be medicated for life .

diet is improved ,getting better at resting and watching my over exercising .mediation is coming on good .

I have a strong inner restlessness but I don't claim to have akathisia

I will look into therapy in the future to help with the PTSD I now have because of withdrawl .

ye I think ile park the gene testing for know ,I think that will only be of value to someone before they ever go on drugs .

I'm petrified going forward for the next year but it has to be done .

hope you well ,take care

PB

[powerback]

2 hours ago, peng said:

Agree with AliG, she is experienced mod and I am just another effexor victim.

I would not remove any more beads for a while.

Relatively speaking, you are hardly on anything, anyway, powerback, and reading your posts each day you do not sound as if you are resting on somewhere stable.

Just sayin'!

Best wishes, bhoy.

HI peng  thanks for your input .a giant disaster ever touching drugs .I never really got any productive value out of drugs ,and now trying to get off them has left me nearly  destroyed ,but I'm determined to beat it .I've got this far from all my research and the help from this site .

 

I don't think anyone can recover unless we learn to cope with non drug techniques ,change diet ,stress,exersise .there's  a fundamental reason why anyone ends up on these drugs and if they aren't changing that  then how  can we stay off them in my opinion

 

I'm not sure the strength or amount means a whole lot when its pooped out in your system ,that's why people end up on big doses ,the doctor is trying to counter act withdrawl by updoseing and changing drugs ,utterly useless .

 

this is why the newbies need to see my case and others like mine  ,they should never cut a dose or cold turkey [sadly I was in the spell of doctors at the time and I followed he's direction  ,but never again ]

 

we need to be listening to peter breggin  and one of my sites is also beyond meds ,MIA podcast aswel as the site ,if we are not understanding the change and the serious criticism of psychiatry out there ,it will become impossible to get away from big pharma .

in my defence I don't  think I've been overly pessimistic on the site ,i actually think I've a lot to give as in advice and experience .

 

being critical of an industry like psychiatry and medical doctors has nothing to do with cynicism ,its greatly warranted .if it was in fallible we wouldn't need this site or the word iatrogenic illness .

I'm not having a go so please don't think that ,I'm just so passionate about the madness of modern medicine.

but note to self though get more me time and practice more soothing activity's

 

total respect to you Peng and hope you have a good day .

PB

[powerback]

I must add ,the fact I've had this mucus before and it did clear shows that our body's are cleansing itself and this is a total positive .this time around I'm eating much more healthy and this can only be a bonus .

 

[AliG]

I'm so sorry you have had such a bad day/ week / month.

 

Sending much love.

Ali

[powerback]

7 minutes ago, AliG said:

I'm so sorry you have had such a bad day/ week / month.

 

Sending much love.

Ali

Thanks ALiG  you forgot to put year .I've got good support even if there patience is waning .

Adversity really does build character .

there has been good times the last 2 months so I must  remember that .

respect and love to you also

PB

[AliG]

Yes . It's been a big couple of years.

I'm so sorry. I have had to make it through this in such a big way. You will too.

[powerback]

15 minutes ago, AliG said:

Yes . It's been a big couple of years.

I'm so sorry. I have had to make it through this in such a big way. You will too.

YE  I believe I will thanks AIiG .good on you for so long med free .

reading William glasser ,choice theory ,not to much though in withdrawl ,I must take it easy .

he was a  medication critic along side peter breggin from the start .

PB

 

[powerback]

What a day coping and dealing with extreme states of depression ,intrusive thoughts .flu feelings ,craving pizza , paranoia ,the feeling of loosing my mind .

All that being said, all of the techniques and ways I've learned to cope and understanding my situation really does help and works ,I plead with everyone please never give up and learn everything you can because I don't for one minute think I wont get through this .if your in an extreme state ,look up will hall ,he has helped me understand it  so much .

 

enjoying my night time window now for a while ,maybe it last hours or minutes but ile take it .

respect to everyone going through what we all do .

PB