George11: 3 weeks off anafranil (clomipramine)

[Fresh]

Could you update your signature please - I was thinking you had been med free since 12 october 2014.

Thanks

[george11]

Hello i am still here.I am 1 year and 1 month off med's but i am getting worse and not better.I had anxiety and been on med's for 7-8 years but now i have less anxiety and starting have depression.The depression is getting worse with the time!Is this normal?I don't want to go again on med's!

 

I will be thankful to listen what you think!

 

Thanks in advance!

[KarenB]

Welcome back George - it's been a while. 

 

What would be most helpful as we start to help you again is filling out a signature – drugs/dates/dosages etc - so we can see your situation easily whenever you post.  Include everything you've taken in the last few years or are taking now, even if it's only occasionally, and also how you stopped taking the drugs a year ago.  Thanks.

 

Are you taking either Fish oil or Magnesium?  Many people find them useful during withdrawal.  And in terms of managing depression there are many ideas here: 

Non-Drug Techniques to cope with emotional symptoms.

 

I know it's really hard when withdrawal keeps on going for so long - when you feel like you've already dug really deep and tried so hard.  So I want to reassure you that if you keep going, you will continue to find what you need to get you through this.  Do you have any self-care things in place - maybe meditation, gentle exercise, dietary things? 

 

Karen

[Petunia]

Welcome back George,

I'm sorry you're still not feeling recovered, some people can take quite a long time to recover from the effects of taking psych drugs and stopping them too fast.

 

Its good that your anxiety has decreased.

 

When you say you are now feeling depressed, could you explain a bit more about that. Depression can mean different things to different people. Also, is there a pattern to your symptoms, like do you feel worse at certain times of the day?

 

Are you taking any medications at all now? Do you still take clonazepam occasionally?

 

Petunia.

[george11]

Welcome back George - it's been a while. 

 

What would be most helpful as we start to help you again is filling out a signature – drugs/dates/dosages etc - so we can see your situation easily whenever you post.  Include everything you've taken in the last few years or are taking now, even if it's only occasionally, and also how you stopped taking the drugs a year ago.  Thanks.

 

Are you taking either Fish oil or Magnesium?  Many people find them useful during withdrawal.  And in terms of managing depression there are many ideas here: 

Non-Drug Techniques to cope with emotional symptoms.

 

I know it's really hard when withdrawal keeps on going for so long - when you feel like you've already dug really deep and tried so hard.  So I want to reassure you that if you keep going, you will continue to find what you need to get you through this.  Do you have any self-care things in place - maybe meditation, gentle exercise, dietary things? 

 

Karen

Thanks for the reply Karen.The most drugs drugs i stopped them cold turkey or very fast.I am not on drugs since 5 April 2015!

I tried for a while fish oil and magnesium but i didn't feel any change.I have psychotherapy for 8-9 months now but for me it didn't help i don't know!!

[Alia02]

George, I am half way coming off Anafranil (Clomipramine) I have tried to come off it faster before, which resulted in a complete physical and mental breakdown for me. Now I am doing it much slower. It is a complex drug which affects every part of the nervous system. I think you are amazing that you have come off it completley, but sadly, probably your new symptoms are as a result of the quick withdrawl. Hang in there and keep in touch. There are far more experienced people on the site who can give you a lot of advice. (PS. All the symptoms you have talked about I have experienced especially when I came off quickly)

[george11]

Welcome back George,

I'm sorry you're still not feeling recovered, some people can take quite a long time to recover from the effects of taking psych drugs and stopping them too fast.

 

Its good that your anxiety has decreased.

 

When you say you are now feeling depressed, could you explain a bit more about that. Depression can mean different things to different people. Also, is there a pattern to your symptoms, like do you feel worse at certain times of the day?

 

Are you taking any medications at all now? Do you still take clonazepam occasionally?

 

Petunia.

Hi Petunia, its a bit difficult to explain what i feel.I wake up in the morning and i feel no energy,low mood and maybe little anxiety.At various time of the day i feel worse and other time little bit better(maybe for some minutes).I have no desire to do anything but i do everything against what i feel.I do not enjoy anything from long ago but i hold there!I feel everything it rotates in a circle!I feel oppression in the head.A few months ago i had more anxiety and less depression.For example i had anxiety for 3-4 days or more(feeling on edge and want to stay all the day outside the house and do something all the time) and then i have 1 day with less anxiety and more depression and then again the same like a circle.The last time i feel less anxiety and more like depression,i don't have energy,motivation....

I feel worse at night from what i see.I'am not taking any med's since 5 April 2015.I'am not taking clonazepam too since then 5 April!I threw it!!

[george11]

George, I am half way coming off Anafranil (Clomipramine) I have tried to come off it faster before, which resulted in a complete physical and mental breakdown for me. Now I am doing it much slower. It is a complex drug which affects every part of the nervous system. I think you are amazing that you have come off it completley, but sadly, probably your new symptoms are as a result of the quick withdrawl. Hang in there and keep in touch. There are far more experienced people on the site who can give you a lot of advice. (PS. All the symptoms you have talked about I have experienced especially when I came off quickly)

Thanks for reply Alia!I wonder if my depression is from the med's or it is my condition!!

[Petunia]

Thank you for explaining more about how you are feeling. It sounds like you are going through the windows and waves pattern of recovery. Although at the moment your windows are only lasting for a few minutes, which is good, it means you are starting to heal.

 

You have only been drug free for just over a year, many people here are still not feeling well a year after a going cold turkey off drugs. I've had the same pattern as you. I feel more anxiety for a few days and then I kind of crash into depression type symptoms. I was going through this pattern most of last year. But then I had some weeks of really good windows where I felt completely healed. Then I went back to the symptoms again.

 

Most of this year so far I've had high anxiety, but for the last 2 weeks I've felt a little bit better without the depression. This is what recovery is like, lots of changing patterns of symptoms in a windows and waves cycle. I also stopped several drugs too fast and I'm going through this recovery process. We get better in time, but it can take quite a long time for some people. The important thing is not to take any more drugs and to live a healthy life getting plenty of sleep, good food and some gentle exercise and in time we start to feel better.

 

It can take a long time to heal from the effects of these drugs because they change the way the brain and nervous system work and everything has to change back to the way it was before. When we are feeling symptoms, that's a sign that our nervous system is working hard to make some of those changes.

 

Here is something written by Rhi, one of our moderators which explains it better than I can.

 

Brain Remodelling (Rhi's Description of Brain Healing)

 

and here are some videos which also explains how recovery happens: 

 

 

 

You wrote that you are wondering if your depression is from meds or your condition. If you didn't have depression before you started taking drugs, then its most likely being caused by drug effects and will improve as you continue to recover. I didn't have depression before I took antidepressants for my anxiety, but the drugs caused me to feel very unhappy, sad and unmotivated. I lost all my energy and motivation for life. I have  been feeling like this in cycles as I'm recovering, its part of the process for some people and will go away in time.

[george11]

Thank you for explaining more about how you are feeling. It sounds like you are going through the windows and waves pattern of recovery. Although at the moment your windows are only lasting for a few minutes, which is good, it means you are starting to heal.

 

You have only been drug free for just over a year, many people here are still not feeling well a year after a going cold turkey off drugs. I've had the same pattern as you. I feel more anxiety for a few days and then I kind of crash into depression type symptoms. I was going through this pattern most of last year. But then I had some weeks of really good windows where I felt completely healed. Then I went back to the symptoms again.

 

Most of this year so far I've had high anxiety, but for the last 2 weeks I've felt a little bit better without the depression. This is what recovery is like, lots of changing patterns of symptoms in a windows and waves cycle. I also stopped several drugs too fast and I'm going through this recovery process. We get better in time, but it can take quite a long time for some people. The important thing is not to take any more drugs and to live a healthy life getting plenty of sleep, good food and some gentle exercise and in time we start to feel better.

 

It can take a long time to heal from the effects of these drugs because they change the way the brain and nervous system work and everything has to change back to the way it was before. When we are feeling symptoms, that's a sign that our nervous system is working hard to make some of those changes.

 

Here is something written by Rhi, one of our moderators which explains it better than I can.

 

Brain Remodelling (Rhi's Description of Brain Healing)

 

and here are some videos which also explains how recovery happens: 

 

 

 

You wrote that you are wondering if your depression is from meds or your condition. If you didn't have depression before you started taking drugs, then its most likely being caused by drug effects and will improve as you continue to recover. I didn't have depression before I took antidepressants for my anxiety, but the drugs caused me to feel very unhappy, sad and unmotivated. I lost all my energy and motivation for life. I have  been feeling like this in cycles as I'm recovering, its part of the process for some people and will go away in time.

Thanks very much for your reply!I forgot to write that i feel also very tired,sleepiness and (slightly irritable sometimes)

My psychotherapist says following-->panic attacks-->high serotonin then the high adrenaline depletes serotonin then depression occurs where there are no signs of panic!!Depression in this case is an evolutionary mechanism made to deal with the panic-Then follows a period of time which serotonin it rises and adrenaline falls and the condition is normalised.

Antidepressants prevent this cycle, and do not allow serotonin fall and they make endless crises!!

[Alia02]

I too have this thought...is it me or is it the medicines? I have a tendancy towards depression, but beleive me, the symptoms of coming off this drug are just what you are describing. And you idd come off really fast. So...there has to be a large element of withdrawl in there. Hang in there.

[george11]

What do you think about this?

My psychotherapist says following-->panic attacks-->high serotonin then the high adrenaline depletes serotonin then depression occurs where there are no signs of panic!!Depression in this case is an evolutionary mechanism made to deal with the panic-Then follows a period of time which serotonin it rises and adrenaline falls and the condition is normalised.

Antidepressants prevent this cycle, and do not allow serotonin fall and they make endless crises!!

[Petunia]

This is an interesting theory, but its just a theory. There are no studies to show what's going on with neurotransmitters in a human brain during anxiety, panic or depression. Different people react differently to the various antidepressants, some become more anxious, some less, some people become more depressed when taking a serotonin increasing drug which is supposed to reduce depression. There is much more going on than fluctuating levels of serotonin. The human brain is very complex and we understand very little about how it actually functions.

 

The prescribing of psychiatric drugs are just ongoing experiments based on no real science, with the hope that something eventually 'works' to make the inconvenient and difficult feelings and behaviors go away.  If you want to learn the truth about how these drugs were developed and what they actually do I'd highly recommend reading Anatomy of an Epidemic by Robert Whitaker.  Maybe you could show it to your psychotherapist.

 

How are you feeling now George?

[george11]

This is an interesting theory, but its just a theory. There are no studies to show what's going on with neurotransmitters in a human brain during anxiety, panic or depression. Different people react differently to the various antidepressants, some become more anxious, some less, some people become more depressed when taking a serotonin increasing drug which is supposed to reduce depression. There is much more going on than fluctuating levels of serotonin. The human brain is very complex and we understand very little about how it actually functions.

 

The prescribing of psychiatric drugs are just ongoing experiments based on no real science, with the hope that something eventually 'works' to make the inconvenient and difficult feelings and behaviors go away.  If you want to learn the truth about how these drugs were developed and what they actually do I'd highly recommend reading Anatomy of an Epidemic by Robert Whitaker.  Maybe you could show it to your psychotherapist.

 

How are you feeling now George?

Thanks for your reply Petunia!How i am feeling now?Thanks for asking!!Every day is different!Some days i feel bad and some days i feel better but i am not feeling fully good!Everything it rotates in a circle!

[george11]

Most of people said that the worst of the withdrawal is the first 9-10 months after med's stopped!Then the most people start to have windows!I'am 1 year and 2 months almost without drugs and i don't have any windows,but only waves!!I'am getting worse with time!!One day i'am extremely anxious,the other day depressed!Other time i switch from anxiety to depression for a couple of hours!!I can't understand this!!!If this is a withdrawal where are the windows??

Why i'am getting worse??Maybe is not a withdrawal??

[AliG]

Hi George.  This process is different for everyone, and each is on their own timeline.  There are so many factors that can impact on our recovery time. Each of us has our own level of stress, and what we can deal with during this time.  There is so much going on , in terms of building a new brain that it is disconcerting and unfathomable , at the same time. The wonder of it is that , we can re- build and re- mould our brains and nervous systems, but it can take some time.

It has taken you approximately six years to get to this point .  It could possibly take a little longer than 14 months to recover.  Perhaps, have a read of  " Symptoms & Self- Care" , and see what you can take away from there for your own self- care. It is a mine of information, and a great resource. There are a lot of great ideas to help in your recovery. Have a look at some of the meditation and yoga threads, particularly the guided meditations.  This will help you to manage some of your anxiety, therefore lessening the need for drugs, and possibly opening up a world of natural alternatives, that will give you a great  base to work from , for a drug- free future.

Guided Meditations, Calming Videos, Sleep Hypnosis

 

Ali

[george11]

Hi everyone,i'am almost 2 years without med's.I can say that my situation is getting worse and not better!I don't know if is withdrawal anymore!I started thinking that i may have bipolar disorder i don't know..I had only anxiety but now i have and depression and its getting worse!

 

Sometimes i feel tired but at the same time my brain is wired and i feel need to go outside and not stay at home.I don't like to stay at home i don't know why!My vision is getting very strange only at night maybe is dr/dp i am not sure because is not the same dp/dr like i had before years,its like i have a tension in my eyes, alert and inner tension in my body, its very hard to explain it sorry...I also seeing spinning wheels in my peripheral vision at night for some hours.

 

The last month iam getting mixed depression and anxiety at the same time for couple of hours and i feel inner emotional painMaybe these symptoms are sign of bipolar i dont know anymore........Everyday is different!One day i feel wired brain,anxious and want to be outside all the day and do all my tasks ,other day i feel more depressed and less anxious....... My worse times are at nights.Sometimes also i feel inner tension in my legs when my brain is wired.I never feel normal!!Is this anxiety,depression or bipolar???

Thanks in advance!!

[scallywag]

George11 -- sorry to read that you're still dealing with difficult symptoms that don't seem to have diminished. 

 

About whether it's withdrawal or an underlying condition, the following topics may be helpful:

Withdrawal or relapse?

Delayed onset of withdrawal symptoms

 

It's discouraging when symptoms continue for 2 years. Wouldn't it be wonderful if there was some way out of the suffering other than time? Other people have gone through this and come out the other side feeling well and whole again. You will too.

[george11]

Thanks scallywag for your reply, i think that for 2 years I had to have some improvement and not getting worse i don't know what to think now!Everyday is different,one day depression,the other anxiety i don't know what to expect.......

[george11]

Hi everyone,i'am almost 2 years without med's.I can say that my situation is getting worse and not better!I don't know if is withdrawal anymore!I started thinking that i may have bipolar disorder i don't know..I had only anxiety but now i have and depression and its getting worse!

 

Sometimes i feel tired but at the same time my brain is wired and i feel need to go outside and not stay at home.I don't like to stay at home i don't know why!My vision is getting very strange only at night maybe is dr/dp i am not sure because is not the same dp/dr like i had before years,its like i have a tension in my eyes, alert and inner tension in my body, its very hard to explain it sorry...I also seeing spinning wheels in my peripheral vision at night for some hours.

 

The last month iam getting mixed depression and anxiety at the same time for couple of hours and i feel inner emotional painMaybe these symptoms are sign of bipolar i dont know anymore........Everyday is different!One day i feel wired brain,anxious and want to be outside all the day and do all my tasks ,other day i feel more depressed and less anxious....... My worse times are at nights.Sometimes also i feel inner tension in my legs when my brain is wired.I never feel normal!!Is this anxiety,depression or bipolar???

Thanks in advance!!

[scallywag]

George what non-drug techniques are you using to cope with the symptoms?

 

For some ideas, please read

Non-drug techniques to cope with emotional symptoms.

Change the channel - dealing with cognitive symptoms.

The Dr. Claire Weekes Method of Recovering from a Sensitized Nervous System

[george11]

I had psychotherapy for 1 year but didn't help.....

[scallywag]

ok, please have a look at the topics to which I posted links. Which of the techniques posted in those topics will you try?

[george11]

I don't know there are to many!Can you suggest me something?

Thanks in advance!

There is something that i can't understand!Every day my depression is different!Sometimes is mild and sometimes is hard like now..I can't understand this......

[AliG]

George.  This still sounds like the usual windows and waves pattern of withdrawal and recovery.

 

The Windows and Waves Pattern of Stabilization

 

Dr. Joseph Glenmullen's withdrawal symptom checklist

 

I'm nearly three years without meds and I have windows of feeling normal but also many waves where I experience symptoms similar to yours. It is the way the body is healing and trying to reach a state of homeostasis.

 

I would go back and read the links to the topics posted above and find a few techniques like perhaps meditation that can help you get through the times of extreme distress.

 

We all have different timelines for healing and much as we would like it to end now , we can't make the process any shorter unfortunately. It is what it is and accepting that can help to relieve the stress . It is a better alternative than continually questioning your recovery.

 

The Claire Weekes method has helped many with anxiety - maybe you could familiarize yourself with it to not only help now but in the future also. It's a great tool to help manage everyday life and its' stresses.

 

Let us know how this and the meditation helps. 

[george11]

Thanks AliG for your reply!My worst problem is the depression,it's getting worse all the time...I can say that my anxiety is less now!

Where can i find Caire Weekes method and how to learn to have meditation?

Thanks in advance!

[Happy2Heal]

Thanks AliG for your reply!My worst problem is the depression,it's getting worse all the time...I can say that my anxiety is less now!

Where can i find Caire Weekes method and how to learn to have meditation?

Thanks in advance!

 

http://www.anxietycoach.com/claire-weekes.html

[george11]

 

Thanks AliG for your reply!My worst problem is the depression,it's getting worse all the time...I can say that my anxiety is less now!

Where can i find Caire Weekes method and how to learn to have meditation?

Thanks in advance!

 

 

http://www.anxietycoach.com/claire-weekes.html

Thanks catnapt

[george11]

Hi everyone i experience alternating bouts of anxiety and depression and sometimes both anxiety and depression at the same time.Does anyone else experience the same?

Is this a sign of bipolar?

Thanks in advance!!

[ChessieCat]

You've been drug free for 2 years.  If you read around the site you will find others who have been getting withdrawal symptoms for many years after stopping the drug/s.

 

Are you drinking caffeine or alcohol?  Are you experiencing external stressors?  These can all trigger withdrawal symptoms.  Are you taking any supplements?  Antibiotics?  Sometimes these can cause issues.  Even something that you have taken in the past and it worked can turn paradoxical and become a problem because your CNS has become sensitised.  Some people find that certain foods can be a trigger.

 

Do you Keep Notes on Paper & Rate Symptoms Daily to Check Patterns and Progress.  Doing this may help you to see a pattern or pinpoint what may be contributing to it.

 

From What is Happening in Your Brain:

 

Basically- you have a building where the MAJOR streel structures are [...] to be rebuilt at different times - ALL while people are coming and going in the building and attempting to work.

It would be like if the World Trade Center Towers hadn't completely fallen - but had crumbled inside in different places.. Imagine if you were [...] to rebuild the tower - WHILE people were coming and going and [...] to work in the building!  You'd have to set up a temporary elevator - but when you needed to fix part of that area, you'd have to tear down that elevator and set up a temporary elevator somewhere else. And so on. You'd have to build, work around, then tear down, then build again, then work around, then build... ALL while people are coming and going, ALL while the furniture is being replaced, ALL while the walls are getting repainted... ALL while [...] is going on INSIDE the building. No doubt it would be chaotic. That is EXACTLY what is happening with windows and waves.  The windows are where the body has "got it right" for a day or so - but then the building shifts and the brain works on something else - and it's chaos again while another temporary pathway is set up to reroute function until repairs are made. 
And just like the Twin Towers- it's possible - but the buiding is a major effort -and it takes a good year or more sometimes.

[ChessieCat]

And I really like the Rubik's cube analogy.  I've managed to solve the Rubik's cube with the help of a Youtube video.  You get it so that there are only a couple of colours not in the correct place.  To somebody watching the last couple being put into place it looks like you are scrambling the whole thing up completely and will have to start again, but just when it looks like you've messed it up, a few more moves and it is suddenly complete.

 

Video:  Healing From Antidepressants - Patterns of Recovery

[george11]

Thanks for reply chessieCat!I really appreciate your help!!

Iam drinking and coffee and alcohol yes because of my work and my situation sometimes!Iam professional singer and i have stage performance anxiety this is why i am drinking alcohol!!Iam not take any antibiotics or supplements but i took some magnesium and omega-3 without any success!Is this a wave that i have at this moment?I don't want to start the meds again but i am afraid these

alternating bouts of anxiety and depression to not be a bipolar disorder!!!!

Is the alterating bouts of anxiety and depression normal to have them???

Thanks in advance!

[ChessieCat]

Well the first thing I would be doing is to eliminate the alcohol and the caffeine.  They both known for causing issues, even when someone isn't in withdrawal.

 

Secondly, I would be learning non drug techniques for dealing with the anxiety.  There are many ways to do this.  But you may need to try different things to find the one/s that work for you.  And it means doing them at least a few times to give it a chance to see if they work, unless you can tell straight away that they cause more stress.

 

I found that learning and understanding the changes that happened in my body when I started to become anxious has helped me immensely.  Recognising the first signs means that I can do my controlled and concentrated deep breathing and settle myself, and self talk telling myself that I know what it happening and I am safe, whereas before I didn't understand what was happening and I would feel sick in my stomach, I would start breathing quickly and shallowly and if that kept going I would end up in a sobbing heap.  This was because I became scared of the physical signs and would have a full on panic attack.

 

Claire Weekes Is excellent.  The term "nervous illness" is the old fashioned term for anxiety disorder. The “Claire Weekes” Approach to Anxiety

[ChessieCat]

Mod JanCarol says that the legs up the wall yoga position is good for anxiety.  Yoga for calming (very simple poses can help greatly)

 

And I've just read this post:

 

...

 

I've been doing yoga off and on for maybe 30 years, but all I can do now is the gentlest of poses, like the feet up the wall pose, which does wonders for anxiety.  Any kind of strenuous exercise gets me agitated.

 

...
 

[george11]

Thanks for reply chessieCat!

Over the year i think that i have learned a little to calm the anxiety with deep breathing and i don't have anymore panic attacks but only floating anxiety!I began to get used with the anxiety sort of but my main problem now is the depression!I feel that my depression is getting worse!What i see is that i have wave of intense depression that comes for some hours and then goes away!I can call it "depression attack".They can last anywhere from 30 minutes to several hours, and then they suddenly vanish and return to mild depression!Is this normal to happening?Iam afraid that maybe is bipolar

[george11]

i experience alternating bouts of anxiety and depression and sometimes both anxiety and depression at the same time!One day i have more depression and the other day less depression and more anxiety,it's very strange!Every day is different!

I feel also that my depression is getting worse!What i see is that i have wave of intense depression that comes for some hours and then goes away!I can call it "depression attack".They can last anywhere from 30 minutes to several hours, and then they suddenly vanish and return to mild depression!Is this normal to happening?Iam afraid that maybe is bipolar??

Thanks in advance!