damnnardil: Anyone on MAO's? Nardil?

[Guest damnnardil]

I was on Nardil over 22 years. I slowly weaned off. After failing to deal with withdrawal syptoms that were too intense when I tried 1/4 of a pill a week, then trying 1/4 every fourteen days, the only way I was successful was to cut a 1/4 of a tablet every twenty one days!! It took me over two years to wean off of the drug. After six months of being off of it, I made the big mistake of running back to it soon after my wife and I divorced. Now I am weaning again at the same pace I did the first time after trying quicker programs like before. This time I am having pretty severe ups and downs or I should say mood swings that bring me to a state of intense anxiety and sometimes hopelessness. Then in about three days I go back up to a decent level but still am experiencing all kinds of withdrawal symptoms such as vivid nightmares, lethargy, fatigue, muscle soreness, etcetera. I also exercise at least three times a week which brings me out of the anxiety and depression temporarily but I fall back down in one to two days. I eat a very strict healthy diet. Lots of omega 3's etc. Any help or someone that has familiar symptoms and is on Nardil, please respond. Thanks. John

[Altostrata]

Hello, DN. Welcome to our community.

 

I moved your introductory topic here, to Introductions.

 

I'm not sure if we have any others on MAOIs. They are not as often prescribed as the newer antidepressants.

 

The same principle would hold for Nardil as the others: If you have withdrawal symptoms, they're a sign you should go slower, with smaller decrements.

 

The withdrawal symptom pattern you have now may be different from the one you had before. The nervous system moves on, and you are older now.

 

It's hard to get very precise dosages from cutting up tablets. You may wish to get a digital jeweler's scale to weight those tiny pieces, see http://survivingantidepressants.org/index.php?/topic/235-tapering-techniques/

 

How did you cope with that special diet all these years? You must be a good cook.

[Guest damnnardil]

Thank you for your reply. I believe you are right about the changes that take place in our nervous system. I am going through hell as we speak. I have major mood swings, going from very down in the dumps to pretty much normal but their is a constant anxiety of a peculiar existence in the "backround" and I have a long way to go before I see substantial relief. Do you know if , when the drug is lowered in dosage and is below the therapuetic dose, whether the drug still crosses the BBB and do the withdrawal symptoms get less intense? Also any encouragement that you can give me to hang in ther would help. I have been stuck with a kind of suicidal ideation which comes and goes. I have a great psychiatrist who has been with me for over twenty years. He is a USC medical professor and a diplomat of psychiatry but that does not help my emotions that are cause by this drug. I agree also that I can use this information from other members and the drug I'm taking is no different as far as the withdrwal syndromes we experience. Thanks for reading this. Sincerely John

[Altostrata]

How much Nardil are you taking now? What was the schedule of this last taper?

 

The background agitation may be akathisia, see http://survivingantidepressants.org/index.php?/topic/32-akathisia-or-agitation/page__pid__14131__st__30#entry14131 It's a sign you've tapered too fast.

 

There is no such thing as a "therapeutic dose." That's a fiction derived from arbitrary dosing decisions in studies done on very small numbers of people.

 

Any dose of a psychiatric drug crosses the blood-brain barrier. The molecules are designed to do this. You'd be surprised how many molecules there are in .01mg -- enough for some sensitive people to feel them.

 

The withdrawal symptoms are due to the absence of the drug, not its presence in any amount. The medication causes adaptations in the brain and nervous system. Taking the medication away means the brain and nervous system need to re-adapt. The sensations of withdrawal occur while this adaptation is taking place.

 

The faster the discontinuation, the more stress is put on the brain and nervous system to re-adapt. They can't keep up with the changes, hence worse withdrawal symptoms.

 

Very gradual, slow tapering enables gradual adjustments in the nerve cells, which should result in fewer withdrawal symptoms.

[Guest damnnardil]

Took post down cause of bad spelling

[Barbarannamated]

DN,

 

Glad you found the group.

Would you be willing to share the name of your doc? Please feel free to send me a private message if you prefer.

[Guest damnnardil]

Hi Alostrata. Thank you very much for your reply. You seem quite knowledgeable regarding psychotropic medicine. What are your credentials or experience, if I may ask?

 

I understand everything you said. I have been on Nardil for 22 years and I have read every book by Dr. Breggin and unfortunately I have allot of experience with antidepressants, including withdrawal.

 

I am wondering if you are aware of the catastrophe that Pfizer caused concerning Nardil in 2003. Their is a large group of people that depended on Nardil as a life long cure and I can tell you from my own experience that Nardil is a very unique antidepressant. When it does kick in, it is like night and day and the response is instantaneous.

 

Thousands of people felt so good on it that they continued to take it and felt that it was necessary to take it indefinitely to stay the way they felt which was a very intense euphoria.

 

In 2003, Nardil was sold to Pfizer by Parke Davis and they completely changed the formulation, and taking out crucial ingredients to change the half life from 12 hours to 1 hour. This cause thousands of people to FALL BACK INTO THEIR DEPRESSION OR ANXIETY AND AS I SPEAK THIS FORUM STILL CONTAINS SEVERAL die hards that still are trying to convince all the people higher up to change the drug back into the original formula.

 

We have all been ignored by everyone including Pfizer and they refuse to acknowledge this huge problem.

 

Nevertheless, I believe that medication is no way to solve any emotional problem but the original reason I decided to wean off of Nardil was because it blew me up from 180 to 295 and this eventually got to me in more ways than one.

 

To answer your question, I was cutting my tablets of 15 mgs into fourths and taking 1/4 every three weeks or 21 days and it took me about 2 and 1/2 years to complete the wean.

 

Six months later I jumped back on it because of my divorce and now I fully realize what a big mistake this was.

 

I am now weaning at about the same rate, give or take a day or 2 and I am going through periodic hell as I am encountering intense mood swing that I can almost actually them coming.

 

I will feel quite well for about a week or ten days and then for no good reason I will suffer a pretty intense mood swing going down almost as if I developed something a little bit milder than Bipolar or manic, although I do not get manic I just go from a "normal" state down to a low state and I get very anxious like their is pressure on my brain, which I did get a cat scan to see if I had any type of inflammation or brain tumor but this came back negative and I also realize that anti depressants cause this type of false thought process.

 

Another way to put it is it is as if I have a bit of a split personality. I am sick of this poison.

 

My memory has gotten to the point where I cannot remember very well what I did early morning by the time it is evening but this is not all the time but it is very hard to remember what I did the day before and maybe that is because lately I do not do much of anything because I cannot commit to anything that requires persistence because of my mood swing.

 

I dropped out of my martial arts class for the time being, hoping that thing would improve with my mind> I want to go back to school but again I do not enroll because in one of my down swings I am liable to quit.

 

I want this to be over but I have a long road.

 

To answer your other question. I am on 90 mgs a day plus quarters ands I will be going to 8 and 1/2 tomorrow because it will be 19 days since my last cut.

 

I know I am over the maximum according to the books but as my doctor and I agree, every single person is different and I have a high tolerance to medicine and I was on 150 mgs when I was taking it regularly.

 

I have allot more information in my brain concerning this whole mess of pharmaceutical drugs, or better put, plain ass poison.

 

This whole society is drug based and I believe the Rockefellers are responsible for starting the whole pharmaceutical movement or western medicine or whatever you want to call it. It's all in the name of money and dummying down the population so they can control all of us.

 

I have gone into deep study concerning conspiracies and as you might think, I am not paranoid but then again I am and I believe their is good reason to be.

 

I also wanted to mention to you that I get that withdrawal symptom of suicidal ideation, which I know I am not going to commit suicide but the though often comes up with my down moods.

 

I really would appreciate any positive feedback you may have to help me through this difficult time that I am going through and this has been more than 30 years I have been caught up in what I conclude was going down the wrong road and dealing with my emotional issues the wrong way but this is the way our family thought that it was the proper way.

 

Going to a shrink was the way to solve your problems and psychotherapy was of little importance back in the day. Ignorance of the truth resulted in the condition I am in now.

 

Please send me and positive response you may have regarding myself and any encouragement you have would be great. My psychiatrist is well aware that I am weaning and is one of the best but he fully admits that like so many others, he knows little about weaning off of psychotropic medicine and he is actually learning from me. Bye for now. John (BAD SPELLING, I KNOW. I CANNOT GET THE SPELL CHECK TO WORK AND WHEN I PRESS DOWNLOAD, NOTHING HAPPENS!?)

Edited December 4, 2011 by Altostrata
added paragraph breaks

[Altostrata]

John, I added paragraph breaks. Big chunks of text are hard to read online.

 

Spellcheck, as I understand it, is part of your browser. The site software doesn't provide it. Don't worry about your spelling. Not sure what you're pressing when you press Download. Are you trying to download something?

 

My credentials are 7 years of withdrawal syndrome, during which I've read many of the journal articles on it and participated in a large online support forum. (Ideological schism caused me to start this site.) I also have work experience analyzing medical research and designing clinical trial software for a biotech company. And writing. And software design. Etc.

 

I am also in contact with a very knowledgeable medical doctor. I get to ask him maybe one or two questions a month.

 

I didn't know about that history of Nardil. I'm not surprised that pharma screwed patients. I personally think the MAOIs are heinous drugs because of the obvious metabolic effects.

 

You'll get through this. Don't blame yourself, every single person on this site fell for the hype about the drugs. In withdrawal, I had what I called the "black holes" of the deepest melancholia and horrible visions of self-destruction. This is what a surge of cortisol does to your brain.

 

For me, after a while, the black holes went away by themselves. I learned meditative breathing and that helped a lot with the waves of anxiety and melancholia.

 

Also, regular exercise like walking every day is important to regularize the autonomic nervous system.

[Shanti]

Hi John,

 

Welcome to the forum. I agree with you about the conspiracy to dumb us down. I feel like Paxil, and other drugs like this are truly sinister. I feel this is even intentional. But, I have to say that I am diagnosed Schizophrenic, and have had a lot of paranoia in my past. But this I know is how it is. "Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get you!" I was really into the conspiracies for a lot of years. Then I became spiritual and it saved my sanity.

 

Sending you lots of positive energy to feel better. You'll make it and be free of all this.

 

Oh, a tip about paragraphs. I used to make one big paragraph too. Then when someone told me to break it up, I had no clue how to. So I just started breaking them up every three sentences or so. No discretion, just guessing when it's a good time to break it. It's worked out pretty good.

[Guest damnnardil]

Thank you Shanti

[Guest damnnardil]

Shant. Hi. Did you think "the power of myth" was a good book?

[Shanti]

Shant. Hi. Did you think "the power of myth" was a good book?

 

I haven't read that. Who is it written by? Is it good?

[Guest damnnardil]

I assumed you read it because did you not quote Joseph Campell at the bottom of your taper history? he wrote the book.

[Guest damnnardil]

Hi everyone.I have been on Nardil for over 20 years because of plain old "depression". This is the 2nd time I will be weaning off of it. What I have noticed that is diffrent in my symptoms than most everyone else on here is that I have definite mood sings where I will feel very good and my mood feels Normal. After this, I will go into a deep depression that will last 4 or five days. Have I developed bipolar or hypomania from the meds and if so, will getting of of them eventually bring me back to normal?? Thanks. John

[Altostrata]

DN, please add updates to your existing topic. Do not start any more topics in Introductions.

 

Exaggerated depression is a withdrawal symptom. It sounds like yours is following a recognizable course after you make a decrease. At least it's temporary. It shows that your nervous system is adjusting.

 

No, this does not mean you have become bipolar.

[Guest damnnardil]

Dear Altostrata, I really appreciate the fact that you have acknowledged me.

 

These last couple weeks have been very difficult for me. I am very confused

as to what is going on with my brain. For the past few days, I have been a bit

terrified by the suicidal ideation that has been going on in my brain.

 

I wonder

if I'm doing this to myself or it is the effects of the withdrawal? Also as I

mentioned, I start to

believe that I have developed hypomania or bipolar 2.

These last few days have sort of changed my mind about whether I am bi polar or

 

not because I am not having those good moods any more lately and it is all

 

depression with suicidal ideation. I also lately have been in that familiar

state where I don't feel like doing much of anything and this always puts a good

scare in me because it makes me feel like I am going back into a regular

 

depression that will not change. I would give the world to be "normal" like it

seems that most other people out in society are. I know they all have problems

 

too but I believe allot of the time that mine is different and I am in the

minority as far as a person that is walking around the mall or grocery store and

is weaning off of an anti depressant. I have also lately become pretty irritable

and feel like every one doesn't like me or hates me and I felt that you hated me

 

because of the conflicts that we have had. I really am a very good person and I

have a big heart and I am sorry for any trouble or any reason that I caused you

to dislike me. I am really hanging by a thread these days and your little

comments was enough to make my day and change my attitude about my condition.

 

You helped me allot. Will this ever end? I was doing what I thought was very

well as I was having a pile of good days where life meant something to me and

now all of a sudden everything has become so drab. I was planning on things

improving as I lower my dose, although I've only lowered it a couple of times in

 

six weeks and these decreases have only been 3 and a half milligrams each time.

I often lose patience in this whole affair and start believing that things will

always be like this and I am damned for life with these ailments that these

poison chemicals have caused. I thank you again for acknowledging my post. Also

 

I am very sorry that I find it so confusing on how or where to type something in

this forum. My brain is spinning and I feel at times that I am going insane.

Please further simplify where I am supposed to begin another comment or thought.

Thank you. Sincerely, John

[tezza]

I'm having the same symptoms coming off Risperdal

[Altostrata]

John, it is unlikely you have become bipolar disorder. That is a diagnosis that is overused, particularly for people who have withdrawal symptoms.

 

What has your taper schedule been?

[tezza]

John, I have some good days just like you and then it's like this black foggy cloud hovers over me all over again. I, too, get to thinking it will never end but we have to hold on. This seems to be the pattern for all of us trying to come off these poisons. Everything you wrote above could have been written by me, even the part where you talk about people not liking you. I feel that way a lot. I hope you are ok. Thinking of you!

[Guest damnnardil]

Can it be possible that I am experiencing continual withdrawal as I am slowly weaning from my anti-depressant? Lately I have had days of no emotion, anxiety, etc. Another important question is, do the withdrwal effects get milder as the dose decreases?

[Altostrata]

Can it be possible that I am experiencing continual withdrawal as I am slowly weaning from my anti-depressant? Lately I have had days of no emotion, anxiety, etc. Another important question is, do the withdrwal effects get milder as the dose decreases?

 

If you've been tapering at 1/4 tablet every 2 weeks, this might be too fast for your nervous system. If this is so, withdrawal effects will not get milder, they'll probably get worse. This is why we say repeatedly to taper at 10% of your dose every month.

 

hi, dave here from Australia ive been on nardil since 1999 , it hasn't been working for me so around 12 months ago I decided to go down on the dosage ..unlucky for me im very sensitive to dose reduction , I worked out through trial and error that the fastest I could reduce it to avoid withdrawals (for me chronic dreaming fatigue ,tiredness) was around 1/4 of one tablet every 4 weeks ..so im half way to being off it . all good so far .

 

Good to hear you found your tolerance, dave. Perhaps you'd like to start your own Intro topic in this forum, to trace your journey?

[Guest damnnardil]

Hi Dave. We are roughly in the same boat. I've been weaning off Nardil for the second time now and I have found that 1/4 tab every 3 weeks works for me although I think I would feel better if I listen to tazziedave66. Well wait a minute tazziedave66. You believe I am on 1/4 tab every 2 weeks but actually it's every 3 and I successfully weaned off of Nardil after being on it for 22 years doing the 1/4 tab every 3 weeks but with allot of the same symptoms as Dave.

 

Yes Dave, I dream oh so frequently like almost every night and some are mild while others are intense nightmares. I'm doing a little better doing 1/4 tab every 3 weeks but it is harder this time. I know everyone is different but I would guess that 1/4 tab a month is good and ample enough time for your situation.

 

I believe that we are going to experience symptoms no matter how long our intervals are between cutting back and I want to get off of this crap completely so I can start really getting my life back together. I am just pushing through, keeping busy, patiently waiting for the light at the end of the tunnel.

 

I am so happy I found someone else that is on Nardil and we should keep in touch. If you have any questions for me, feel free to send a message. Unfortunately I have had about 24 years experience with Nardil. Talk to you soon guys. John

[Guest damnnardil]

I put spaces between this paragragh and when I sent it, It jumped back together!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[tazziedave66]

I had the same problem ...worked out I could handle 1/4 of a tablet reduction every four weeks ...so far ive gone from 90 to 60 mg ..only 16 months to go ...........