Sally3: Prozac and Klonopin

[Sally3]

Hi - I haven't been here for awhile. I have been tapering my Prozac and am now down to 5 mg...yahoo. But still a ways to go.

My blood pressure readings have gone up in the last month or so. I have taken blood pressure meds for 20 years...when I c/t'd off the Klonopin 26.5 months ago, my blood pressure dropped way low as I lost 40 lbs...so they decreased my bp meds by half. That is where I stayed for these two years.

Now while tapering off the Prozac for the last 18 months, things were fine bp-wise. Now the bp has gone up and they upped my dose by 10 mg - from 20 to 30 mg of Lisinopril. That didn't seem to make a dent in it, so they told me to go up to my 40 mg (which has been my dose for 20 years). The 40 mg is making me very depressed and is not changing the blood pressure at all.

So I am wondering if this could possibly be due to the taper of the Prozac? Has anyone else had any bp issues like this?

Thank you for reading this and any thoughts/comments would be very much appreciated.

Sally3

[lundeliz]

Hi Sally3, Yes my withdrawal from Cymbalta has definitely caused my BP to go up. I switched from Cymbalta to Celexa in May,

 

and have been having withdrawal symptoms since. I reinstated 10 beads of Cymbalta, then came off that in October. As a result

 

my BP skyrocketed. I've been to the ER twice since that time with very high BP. I have also been on BP meds for many years, but

 

it was always well controlled. I ended up reinstating 8 beads of Cymbalta (less than 3mg) earlier this month . My bp seems to have

 

finally levelled off. I had also been on lisinopril, and was switched to losartan during this recent episode. I've also noticed my meds

 

didn't have a lot of effect during this time. My bp reached some scary points. In the future, I plan to come off those 8 beads VERY VERY slowly.

[Sally3]

Thank you Lundeliz, for your response. That helps alot...I am going pretty slowly off the Prozac but it is just good to know that others are dealing with this too and I am hoping that this is the cause of this sudden increase in the bp....Thank you so much.

Sally3

[Jemima]

I tapered off of Lexapro way too fast almost a year ago and during withdrawal, which entailed insomnia and anxiety, my blood pressure was all over the board. It never got dangerously high, but it most definitely went up and down for no reason other than withdrawal.

 

How are you doing with the Prozac withdrawal? If that's causing a lot of emotional upheaval or physical problems it might be wise to updose a bit and come down more slowly. My blood pressure never got into the danger zone, but if yours has, it would be wise to get it into a safer zone before proceeding with the Prozac taper. Getting off Prozac a few months faster definitely isn't worth risking a stroke.

[Skyler]

Thank you Lundeliz, for your response. That helps alot...I am going pretty slowly off the Prozac but it is just good to know that others are dealing with this too and I am hoping that this is the cause of this sudden increase in the bp....Thank you so much.

Sally3

Hi Sally... I just checked your sig line. Your last drop was more than 10% the previous dose, and you need to go slower now... 5% for the next cut would be wise, and maybe your BP will settle down.

[Sally3]

Thank you for your reply Jemima...I definitely don't want to updose on the Prozac but I will stay where I am for a while.. I am going to call the doctor on Monday and see what we can do about the bp meds. She won't understand about the Prozac I am sure. I don't want to have to increase the bp med either as the increase is making me very depressed...so we'll have to figure out something.

The readings are high but not real bad - 150 over 90....sometimes lower than that...and not much higher than that. Thank you so much for responding - I really appreciate it.

Sally3

[Sally3]

Schuyler - thanks so much for checking on that - I am going much slower than that - that is a fairly old signature - guess I should update it....I am down to almost 5 mgs...but held for a long time and it took me several months to get from 7 to 5.. I was going a bit faster between 9 and 7mgs...but slowed down. I definitely do not go down 1 mg per month...more like 1 mg every 10 weeks and I hold when I feel it.

But appreciate your adding your advice here...thank you so much.

Sally3

[Nikki]

Hi Sally....

 

So much in common. I have HBP. I did run in my family. When I first went on SSRI's my blood pressure went up. I think, and I could be wrong, maybe it was due to the weight gain from Paxil.

 

I take Lisinopril. Started at 10 > 20 > 40> and now 60. I have an appointment with the Doctor this week. I can feel that the 60mgs. may have helped, but I need to get a reading.

 

Genetics - stress - weight - ssri's. Could all of this be the cause? I was told and read that Estrogen contributes to HBP. I take HRT which I am in the process of lowering.

 

I think weight may be the true reason behind it (for me). I am not heavy, but I am not at my ideal weight.

 

I saw a movie "Put Down the Fork" - a documentary about people who got off their medicines and stuck to a meatless - dairy free diet and lost weight and their sugar/HBP/cholesterol numbers dropped way down and they did not need medicine. You can google this.

 

Hugs

[Sally3]

Hi Nikki - Thanks for your input....did you see any change in your mood when increasing to the 60 mg of Lisinopril? When I went from 30mg to 40 - it was like being hit with a sledgehammer - I became very very depressed, suicidal thoughts...etc. I am thinking it is because I am also tapering off the Prozac i.e. less Prozac, less help with keeping the depression gone ....someone here suggested I updose...oh I hate so much to do that as I've worked so hard and long to get down to where I am...but if I need to increase it to keep my BP low, then I guess i I will Just wish I knew if that would work before I updosed...and I really wish I had a doctor who understood all of this...

I think I need to take my BP when I am in a window - which isn't real often...but there is no depession or anxiety during a window and if my BP was also lower, then I would know that it is the "wave" state that pushes my BP up high.

Do you think that the drug w/d's that you did are part of your increased need for BP meds?

Thanks again!

Sally3

[Sally3]

This is such a crazy question but I am so discouraged at what is happening to me. I am 28 months out from a benzo-free cold turkey. I have been tapering Prozac since August 2011 and have gone from 20 mg down to a little bit under 6 mg. I have been tapering so so slowly - .01 mg every 4 to 5 days or so. It is usually right at the 10% mark or a little under.

I have been having some new sx - headaches, foggy feelings in the head, nausea and of course, some former symptoms from throughout the whole Benzo w/d...body jerks, stomach lurching which I then feel an emotional hit in my brain...body jerks etc. I think I have even felt some brain zaps lately...and of course depression! However on the good side - most of my physical sx from the Benzo w/d have diminished. My feet don't burn as muchno real fluctuations in body temperature any longer and some others are better as well.

I don't know if the sx are now due to Prozac w/d and does it really matter? But how do I know if the symptoms I am having now are due to tapering and if I will be much worse when I am finally all the way OFF Prozac? I am very frightened...I don't think I can handle the depression and worry that if I get worse, I may be in danger.

Perhaps I should have never gotten off the Prozac. I just don't know. I don't feel like I was having any issues with the Prozac and indeed, I thought it was helping me. I decided to taper because a Psychiatrist told me that it was probably causing my anxiety and shaking and that I should get off of it. Now I just don't know .... maybe it was a mistake to taper off...maybe my depression will just get worse as I go further down in dosage. This is all so complicated and painful. Any thoughts on this from anyone? Thanks for listening...

Sally3

[jr1985]

Sorry you're having such a hard time, Sally! Maybe you should hold for a few months just to give yourself a much needed rest? You say your benzo symptoms have diminished, but are they still present in some form? Maybe you should wait until you're recovered from that before you finish tapering off Prozac?

 

Remember, it's not a race, go as slowly as you need to, you could even try 5% tapers, or even less (when you're ready, of course). But if you decide not to come off at al,l I'm sure everyone here would still support you, we all understand how nightmarish withdrawal can be!

[dalsaan]

Hi Sally

 

Sorry to hear things havent been going well for you. I would read that as your system saying it needs a rest. I would hold for a while and see if your new symptoms calm down. I dont think you are in a good place to decide whether you should or shouldnt have tapered off prozac. Hold for a month at least and reassess then. I think the closer you get to zero and the longer you have been tapering without significant holds, the more chance that at some point your nervous system will say Ive had enough for now thanks

 

Dalsaan

[Jemima]

It's difficult to know what's going on between the benzo cold turkey and the Prozac. Probably the best course of action is to updose the Prozac to a point where you were comfortable, before these withdrawal symptoms started. After some time at a stabilizing dose we should have a better idea of what to do next.

 

I'm so sorry that you're feeling this bad.

[primrose]

I don't think I can handle the depression and worry that if I get worse, I may be in danger.

Hi

 

I would also agree with Jemima, especially as you said the above.

I am not experienced in coming off AD's but it's good that you stabilise and take it from there.

I am really sorry the meds are giving you such horrible symptoms, and hope that you feel better soon.

[Altostrata]

Agree with all the above. Your choice:

• You may wish to hold until symptoms stabilize, then taper less aggressively.
• If a 10% taper is too much, taper with smaller decreases.
• It's possible you can updose slightly, stabilize, and taper more gradually from there.

[angie007]

Hi Sally,

 

I also agree with all the suggestions above, and would like to say something to you, which i think you should keep in mind also when making decisions about tapering and sx,

1) slow taper does not GUARANTEE symptom free wd ------ i slow tapered for almost 5 years to get off 20mg, i had every listed symptom for paxil wd.

2) Instead of raising the dose, why not sit at this dose now until you stabilise, using that time to take a break from tapering.

3) Reduce by much smaller amounts , i shaved my tab away with a metal nail file lol, the aim is to make this as easy on your body and mind as you can,

4) psyche medication are NOT forever drugs, at some point your body will reach tolerance to it, and you will display symptoms of wd at therapeutic doses - it happened to me.

5) Know that with Patience and TIME you will get there, wd recovery is a very slow, gradual process.

6) And of course when deciding the best route to take you have to consider what your ultimate goal is?? is it to live a drug free life????

 

I hope you can reach some stability with sx, i wish you well sal x

[Sally3]

Thank you all so much for your thoughts, and advice. I am holding now and will stay here and hopefully will stabilize soon. I had a window yesterday - is that considered stabilizing? Today all the anxiety/depression came back....but yesterday was a bonus day for me. That is what confuses me. Since I do get windows, I feel that I am healing even with the tapering of the Prozac. I get so confused over all of this and that is why I just want to get off. But I know that hurrying will only cause me more pain. So I'm just holding for now.

Thank you all again. Appreciate so much your responses to me.

Sally3

[Sally3]

PS - Also just wanted to add that in my window day yesterday, there was no depression of any kind...so that gives me hope that when I am off the Prozac and healed from both drugs that I will NOT be depressed. I was never a depressed person anyway - I went on the Prozac for chronic neck pain which has since been healed....

[Altostrata]

That depression is a withdrawal syndrome, and a sign you should go slower with your taper.

 

Do not think you have to rush to get off Prozac to fix the depression, you will make it worse.

[Sally3]

Thank you Alto for that advice....good to know and I definitely will not rush and I am holding where I am for now....this is taking so bloody long but if I can feel better even while I am tapering, it won't matter. My goal is ultimately to be off the Prozac but my true goal is to just get back to normal and if it takes staying on the small amount of Prozac I am on for a longer time period, then that is what I will do. Just yearning so much for my life to come back to me...

Thank you

Sally3

[Skyler]

Hi Sally... just to let you know, I posted the following in your Off-Topic thread, but think you may be more likely notified here.. so I'm reposting the following. Hope you are doing well.

 

Hi Sally... I wonder how you are doing?? Just to say you might want to stop by this thread in the benzo sub forum when you return. Alto suggested we give you an invite, a little overdue I'd say!! Welcome.

You might want to put a link thru to your intro thread from your sig line to get there easily!

[Sally3]

Hi all - I haven't been here for a while as I have been tapering and it has been going well....until now...so I'm back witha question...

Someone said that there is no "tolerance withdrawal" from SSRI's. Is that right?

Here's an update..

I have been tapering Prozac for 20 months now...started at 20 mgs in Aug of 2011... In March I was down to nearly 4 mg. I was getting increased windows in March while I was still tapering but my waves seemed to be more intense...so I thought I would hold for a month and see if I could stabilize. I am sure I was still healing from a c/t of Klonopin in Sept 2010 as well. But on April 8 I was at 4 mg (1 ml) and stopped tapering.

April brought me more windows - 11 days of windows and 11 days of waves and 9 days of mixed wind/waves...yesterday I was in what I thought was a normal wave and thought I'd be better today...but woke at 3 AM so so depressed, suicidal, anxious,crying all day...totally over the top for my normal waves.

My question is could holding or staying at one dose for almost a month cause this? Could it mean that my brain is wanting me to continue to taper...could it be tolerance withdrawal? Does my brain want me to increase the drug because 4 mg just isn't enough...or as I asked above, do SSRI's not work that way?

I don't know whether to continue holding at 4 mg or start tapering once again? At a loss as to what to do....any thoughts would be very much appreciated..

Sally3

[Altostrata]

Not to worry, it's a wave. Continue holding -- sounds like those windows are becoming more frequent. This is a good sign.

 

Eventually, you'll be stable enough to reduce again.

[Sally3]

Hello - I have the hardest time getting around this site...I'm sure it's not hard but it seems it has changed a bit since the last time I was here and I am a bit lost. I did find all my posts on my profile and I added a post there but no one has commented so I'm thinking that it is not seen and not sure where to post.

I am down to 4 mg of PRozac - and have been holding there since April 8....I am 33 months off of a Klonopin c/t and have been tapering the Prozac for almost two years from 20 mg down to where I am now.

I get dangerously depressed...and it frightens me and I'm thinking that perhaps I need to updose and just stay on the prozac instead of trying to get totally off.  I am just not sure how to updose - should I go extremely slowly - the same way I tapered down or should I go up by larger doses? 

  I have had windows where I was totally normal with no depression, but those windows have practically stopped...I get lesser type waves now which I feel is the Klonopin c/t w/d still.  But the depression scares me and I am now afraid to go any lower. 

  I would appreciate any suggestions, comments or thoughts...thank you!

Sally3

 

 

[Altostrata]

Hi, Sally.

 

I merged a couple of your topics in this one and made it your Intro topic. This is a place where you can keep track of your progress, a kind of journal, and ask questions about your particular situation. Please bookmark it so you can find it again.

 

You can see in this thread that we've discussed the depression before.

 

It's up to you whether you want to hold or updose slightly by a fraction of a milligram to see if that helps.

 

Yes, the site software was updated recently.

[Sally3]

Thank you Alto for replying.  I am wondering if I do manage to taper down and get off the drug, and I become extremely suicidally depressed, which I have been experiencing some of the time now, whether I can go back onto the Prozac or not.  I know with Benzos, going back on is not always possible...so just dont know if a/d's work the same way. 

  And if I do go back up a very small micro amount and it does nothing, then can I keep tapering up?  I just don't know what to do...I have waited since April to stabilize...it's just not happening and I am so very afraid to be suicidally depressed...thank you for any thoughts you have on this...

  I would love to ask a knowlegeable medical practitioner but I don't know one or how to find one...and I realize that any comments given to me here are NOT medical advice...

Sally3

[Rhiannon]

Sally, I know "since April" feels like a long time to you, but it can take many months to stabilize from a too-rapid taper. "Since April" is no time at all.

 

In fact, for people who have tapered too rapidly, it can be a year or more before they feel themselves again.

 

The only difference between you and someone who went all the way down too fast is that you aren't all the way off, but from what you've described it sounds to me like you've been coming down too fast, especially once you hit the doses under 8-10 mg or so. I know that 20 mg in two years sounds slow, but we have found that many people have had to go much more slowly than that, especially if they have a past history of medication changes, like your benzo withdrawal.  (I think, given what I've seen with benzo withdrawal, that you were still not stable from that when your Prozac taper began.) And a lot of people find they really have to slow to a snail crawl as the doses get lower.

 

It's clear that depression is a common withdrawal symptom, and in my opinion that's probably what's going on for you. It's possible that a small updose would help. I think it's fairly certain that holding your dose and just stopping your taper for a while, at least four months but probably more like six months, would help. 

 

I do understand your dread of those horrific suicidal depressions. I've had those too, during my years on psych meds and trying to quit them too fast. It's awful.

 

I've been tapering Celexa for three and a half years, down from 10 mg to 1.6 now, along with some other meds, and I've had no problems with depression, except for occasionally, at which time I stop my taper and focus on lifestyle adjustments (exercise, sleep, social support, getting enough sunlight). So far not only has that always worked, but I find that I am now less suicidal and more happy to be alive than I have been in 20 years. 

 

Only you can say when things have reached the point where it's worth going back up on the Prozac. I certainly do recommend that if you choose to do it, you do it slowly and stepwise and in very small increments (like a quarter of a miligram), and don't expect immediate results.

 

I do think, given the history you describe, that if you feel you can hang in there and focus on the lifestyle tweaks, you will actually find yourself feeling much better in a few months.  

 

Once you feel better, I would recommend waiting another couple of months before continuing your taper, and then restarting it at a slower pace with smaller cuts.  So it takes you four years to get off Prozac, so what? It's better than being stuck on it the rest of your life. And you will find that once you stabilize, you will actually feel much better at the lower doses. But you need to taper more slowly at lower doses too.

[Rhiannon]

Oh, and one more thing: in AD withdrawal it seems to be pretty common for people to experience a "relapse" depression at about three to six months out. It's so common that I'm pretty sure there's something going on neurologically in that time frame. That fits so well with your time frame--you got to the low doses within the past three to six months--that I think that's more support for the idea that what you're experiencing now is due to withdrawal.

 

Again, I think what you need is really mostly just time, and patience, and realistic expectations.  At 4 mg down from 20 mg you are going to have to cut your taper speed down. That's just how it is at the lower doses.  And a corrective hold for a too-fast taper can be more like six months than six weeks. Hang in there.

 

Of course if you find yourself actively suicidal, you need to do whatever it takes to get out of that state, then stabilize for a long time before you start tapering anything again. Only you can say when you have reached that point. But I do think that with a proper taper you will find the suicidality will gradually go away, unless it was something you experienced commonly before you ever took Prozac to begin with.

[Sally3]

Thank you so much Rhi for your comments...I didn't feel as if I had tapered fast at all...but maybe so.  I went from 20 mg to 4 mg in approx. 20 months.  But I see how slow you are going.

But I have something new to add to this whole mess.....today I realized that I had tapered by .10 mg sometime back in April or May INSTEAD of the usual .02 that I was doing every four days or so.  No wonder I have been so depressed.  I just misread the line on my plunger and thought I was under the .4 ml mark but I was really under the 5 ml mark....oh how dumb and dangerous of me to do that...

  All this time I felt I was having a setback in either the prozac taper or still due to my K c/t w/d.  Now what should I do...should I updose or tryto stay here where I am and hope to stabilize here? What is the best thing to do...

...and I have made it all worse by trying to add magnesium to my body by trying different brands...and it has made me so much worse.. 

  Cannot believe this has happened...how careless of me...  Advice, comments, thoughts?  Anyone?

[Sally3]

I have posed this question on my question "Should I updose?"  But am posting it here as well so that I can get as much advice as possible.

 

  I was thinking of updosing from 4 mg upwards of my Prozac liquid due to feeling worse and worse.....and posted a question about it. 

But here is what I have found out..  Today I was going through my records and saw that I had accidentally tapered off of .10 ml .... and never knew it until today...I think I did this sometime in April or May.  Things started going dowhill for me in May.  I had been getting good windows but then one day they vanished and horrible waves descended. 

I realize now that when withdrawing my prozac liquid I withdrew it up to .4 ml instead of the .5 ml that I had been taking...I truly thought that I was at .4 but now after looking at my charts, realize I was still at .5 and I mistakenly continued at .4 since some time in April or May....how careless and stupid of me...that is almost a whole milligram!

  No wonder I have been so sick and depressed and suicidal...and on top of all that due to the increased nervousness, shaking and depression, I was trying to take different magensium pillsto help and it only made it ALL worse. 

  So my question is this....should I updose back to where I ws originally in april/May or should I tryto stay where I am and hopefully stabilize.  I could already have a month or more into this dose...

Maybe I should updose just a fraction and see if that makes a difference or do I just suffer through?

Would love your educated opinions...thank you all so much.

Sally3

[areyouthere]

Alto would be the best  to answer this or Jemima. The good news is that you caught this fairly soon. I've made a mistake such as this too... so don't feel bad. It was with a benzo though and they are different.

 

My guess is that you will be advised to up dose.... but to the full amount or part of it I don't know. 

 

If it were me, I would up dose a fraction to see of I felt any better... 

[Sally3]

Thank you areyou there...appreciate your thoughts...

[Rhiannon]

Don't beat yourself up, we all make those kinds of mistakes at one time or another!

 

Have you been taking the lower dose since you went down by that jump? If so I think if it were me I would be likely to just ride it out, since as Alto says, our CNS is not made of rubber, and the more times we tweak and change dosages up and down, it seems, the more of our "slack" points we seem to use up.

 

If it were me in your position, here's how I would probably break it down:  If I felt suicidal to the point that I might be dangerous to myself, I would try going up a bit and see if it helped, and if it didn't, I'd probably try a new med, because surviving is the most important thing. If my symptoms were interfering with my ability to function in such a way that I was in danger of losing my job, I would probably try an increase, because I have no other source of income and no savings.

 

On the other hand if I had some slack in my life and could take a few weeks and just focus on lifestyle adaptations (gentle exercise, regular schedule, good diet, sleep, and plenty of sunlight) I would hold and ride it out.

 

This is actually good news in a way, because it means you're probably doing okay with your taper and this is what threw you off.

 

I do think you might want to take a look at going slower now that you're down to 4 mg or less. But mainly just take some time to get stable right now before moving on with it.

[strawberry17]

Hi, I know I spoke to you elsewhere, I just read Rhi's reply and I think that the most important thing you can do is stick with the dose you decide to go with for a long while, stop tapering for a good while, as you have been micro tapering fairly rapidly and what with the previous Klonopin cold turkey I think your nervous system needs a rest.

[Sally3]

Thank you both for your replies...I see that even in my above comment I wrote down the wrong thing...it was .10 ml not mg...and this morning laying in bed I realized that it was even more than that...because I dose twice a day, so it was .10 ml twice a day ..so it was a total of .20 ml total deleted a day...what a shock to my brain....I feel that I need to go up a bit and try to get stabilized...I have never really messed with any of my doses ever...never went back up during my taper at all...just a steady downward trend....so I hope it doesn't cause me issues by going up now...just going to go up the same way I came down...by .02 every few days...hope it helps...thanks again for your advice and comments...

[Altostrata]

Sounds like a good idea to me.