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upregulating downregulation....


peggy

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Due to years of emotional abuse I never had any zest for life.

I was not living, just existing and I had no confidence

I had poor concentration and felt vulnerable when around angry people.

Ultimately speed was fake confidence, zest for life, enthusiasm and focus though, but to me, fake was better than none.

I just found the concept of having no speed unthinkable. Once I had got a taste of the fake confience etc I was unwilling to go back to my old tired walking corpse self.

 

So, i had to say goodbye to always having something interesting to do, and hello to depression, anxiety, de-motivation and a whole other nightmare benzo withdrawal symptoms.

I have been speed free ever since.

 

Did you have much by way of withdrawal symptoms in the way we usually think of them? That was what I referring to, though I obviously was unclear.

 

Wow promise, you have my admiration. What a battle you waged. You are more tenacious than most of us. Thanks for sharing.

As always, LISTEN TO YOUR BODY! A proud supporter of the 10% (or slower) rule.

 

Requip - 3/16 ZERO  Total time on 25 years.

 

Lyrica: 8/15 ZERO Total time on 7 or 8 yrs.

BENZO FREE 10/13 (started tapering 7/10)  Total time on 25 years.

 

Read my intro thread here, and check the about me section.  "No matter how cynical you get, it's almost impossible to keep up." Lily Tomlin

 

 

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So, i had to say goodbye to always having something interesting to do, and hello to depression, anxiety, de-motivation and a whole other nightmare benzo withdrawal symptoms.

I have been speed free ever since.

 

Did you have much by way of withdrawal symptoms in the way we usually think of them? That was what I referring to, though I obviously was unclear.

 

Wow promise, my virtual hat is off to you. You have more tenacity than many of us. Thanks for sharing.

 

I never got any withdrawal symptoms that you would normally expect with benzos and other psych drugs, but, then again, when I stopped, I was suffering valium withdrawal symptoms from stopping cold turkey valium.

Niether I, nor my doctor knew I was addicted to benzos because I was not taking valium daily as per her instructions and I was ony taking the zolpidem a week at a time, which my doctor incorrectly told me was not cross tolerant with benzos. (see Ashton manual for citations regarding z-drugs cross tolerance with benzos) http://www.benzo.org.uk/manual/index.htm

 

I used to go for several weeks without speed due to supply issues, and never got withdrawals. I just went back to my natural state which was un-manageable as it was too emotionally intense, yet not moving through these emotions, they just looped round and round.

pregan taper 600mg down to 240mg, daily cuts since xmas

valium, just over 75mg, tapering 0.1 a day, will keep this more udated, cos amounts going down

i have borderline personality, chronic ptsd, and suspected adhd and substance misuse as a symptom, which i am addressing with help of medical staff, drugs agencies & mh sta

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  • 4 months later...
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Does it help you? It looks like serotonergic supplements might cause downregulation etc. if used too long.

This is not medical advice. Discuss any decisions about your medical care with a knowledgeable medical practitioner.

"It has become appallingly obvious that our technology has surpassed our humanity." -- Albert Einstein

All postings © copyrighted.

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I started sleeping somewhat better but I could have just been having a wave that was disrupting sleep prior to starting it. So it's hard to say for sure if the tryptophan made the difference or not.

 

I had started waking more during the night.

 

I've gotten so low on Xanax, soma, remeron and Risperdal (all bedtime meds) that sometimes it's hard to fall asleep, like it was before I started taking Xanax and soma at bedtime.

 

One trick I used before taking those two was to count backwards from 100, I've started doing that again, it works sometimes. Especially if I can't turn off my thoughts.

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I left off the tryptophan last night and did wake up a couple of times. The first wake up wasn't a problem going back to sleep. The second wake up was much more difficult to go back.

 

Dreaming was more vivid again and the dream before the second wake up was the 'thriller movie' type. Also, the second wake up was around 4am.

 

I don't think I will take the chance with the tryptophan.

 

The first night I took it, I slept more soundly than I had for quite some time; if its down-regulating it's not worth it.

 

Thank for starting this thread, Peggy.

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You might want to use it only occasionally, or at a half-dose.

This is not medical advice. Discuss any decisions about your medical care with a knowledgeable medical practitioner.

"It has become appallingly obvious that our technology has surpassed our humanity." -- Albert Einstein

All postings © copyrighted.

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  • 1 year later...

I know this is far too simplified....but....many people dont hit withdrawal until they are many months off ssris (this was the case for me and I was an otherwise healthy young man) I used paxil for 3 years and quit cold turkey...also had a kindling reaction when trying to reinstate the drug..

 

it seems to me that the problems may start due to the UPREGULATION of the serotonin receptors after discontinuing the drug, and this is also why taking the drug again will not help as the serotonin system is far too sensitized (upregulated)

 

I was also a chronic marijuana smoker and last year found that although smoing it helped for a short time, after a while it turned on me in a massive way, all the studies I have read say that Marijuana upregulates serotonin receptors...it left me back at square 1 in my withdrawal

 

also...as I have severe akathisia...I cam across this on the mechanism behind ssri endued akathisia

 

There are several drugs that have no affinity for the  D2 receptor, but do cause akathisia. The most well known are the SSRIs. It has been suggested that SSRIs induce akathisia (and parkinsonism) by indirectly stimulating serotonin (5-HT)2A receptors, which results in inhibition of DA release.1,11 This is in line with the hypothesis that atypical antipsychotics give rise to less akathisia than classical drugs by blocking these serotonin 5-HT2A receptors.1,11,13

 

 

Many people and sites point to downregulation being the issue, and we are waiting not so patiently for serotonin receptors to upregulate...however the start up effects of these drugs are the same as the withdrawal, where it was TOO MUCH serotonin casuing the exact same symptoms, not too little, it appears to me that dopmaine is what we (or I) am lacking in, and not serotonin, but by administering more dopamine when its likely the amounts and receptors are normal (perhaps) would cause dopamine downregulation as the brain would be flooded....is there a way to block the serotonin receptors?? and therefore redirect the dopamine to the cirrect brain areas?

 

I have corresponded with many people, many many years off who are not healed which leads me to doubt that in more severe cases time with correct this damage...or over sensitisation of serotonin receptors, just throwing this theory out there :)

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oh, and I say this also as I have found ANYTHING that increases serotonin make my symptoms a zillion times worse....foods, fish oils, anything

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Once you've developed post-acute discontinuation syndrome, anything might cause kindling. Serotonin upregulation or downregulation is not the key, the hypersensitivity is due to a more far-reaching nervous system dysfunction.

 

There are dozens or maybe hundreds of neurotransmitters beyond serotonin, dopamine, noradrenaline, GABA, etc. Any psychiatric drug affects far more than the "target" receptor. 

 

Serotonergic downregulation in acute withdrawal syndrome provides the environment for nervous system dysfunction later. It's like a chain of falling dominoes. Nervous system dysfunction can continue long after serotonergic downregulation has corrected. After the acute phase, serotonergic downregulation is a moot issue.

 

It's unfortunate that because of the prevalence of the discredited "chemical imbalance" theory, people continue to think in terms of a few neurotransmitters, forgetting that the nervous system and body are much more complex and function on hundreds of hormones working in concert.

This is not medical advice. Discuss any decisions about your medical care with a knowledgeable medical practitioner.

"It has become appallingly obvious that our technology has surpassed our humanity." -- Albert Einstein

All postings © copyrighted.

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Thanks Alto!

 

Yes, to what she said. The nervous system is indescribably more complicated than the cartoonish ways it's talked about in TV commercials and magazines and the media. And nothing happens in isolation; everything interacts with everything else in complex feedback loops that occur in microseconds. 

Started on Prozac and Xanax in 1992 for PTSD after an assault. One drug led to more, the usual story. Got sicker and sicker, but believed I needed the drugs for my "underlying disease". Long story...lost everything. Life savings, home, physical and mental health, relationships, friendships, ability to work, everything. Amitryptiline, Prozac, bupropion, buspirone, flurazepam, diazepam, alprazolam, Paxil, citalopram, lamotrigine, gabapentin...probably more I've forgotten. 

Started multidrug taper in Feb 2010.  Doing a very slow microtaper, down to low doses now and feeling SO much better, getting my old personality and my brain back! Able to work full time, have a full social life, and cope with stress better than ever. Not perfect, but much better. After 23 lost years. Big Pharma has a lot to answer for. And "medicine for profit" is just not a great idea.

 

Feb 15 2010:  300 mg Neurontin  200 Lamictal   10 Celexa      0.65 Xanax   and 5 mg Ambien 

Feb 10 2014:   62 Lamictal    1.1 Celexa         0.135 Xanax    1.8 Valium

Feb 10 2015:   50 Lamictal      0.875 Celexa    0.11 Xanax      1.5 Valium

Feb 15 2016:   47.5 Lamictal   0.75 Celexa      0.0875 Xanax    1.42 Valium    

2/12/20             12                       0.045               0.007                   1 

May 2021            7                       0.01                  0.0037                1

Feb 2022            6                      0!!!                     0.00167               0.98                2.5 mg Ambien

Oct 2022       4.5 mg Lamictal    (off Celexa, off Xanax)   0.95 Valium    Ambien, 1/4 to 1/2 of a 5 mg tablet 

 

I'm not a doctor. Any advice I give is just my civilian opinion.

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Thankyou Altostrata and Rhi

 

I have been reading on the pssd forum who belive that 5ht1 desesnsitisation is behind pssd, they have found by using 5ht1 aginists/antagonists they can relive their symptoms somewhat so there must be things that can help

 

is it possible to recover from kindling or hypersensitivity? Im worried I have gone one step too far with my marijuana use

 

Th term hypsersensitivity worries me also, as I am led to belive that it is that mechanism behind tardive dyskinesia, and that is rarely cured or reversed

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I do not believe SSRIsex has found anything that relieves withdrawal syndrome. Mostly, they are looking for ways to cure PSSD, and they are mostly male.

 

There are a lot of experiments with different drugs and supplements, most doing nothing helpful. If they've found something that reliably diminishes PSSD, I haven't heard about it.

This is not medical advice. Discuss any decisions about your medical care with a knowledgeable medical practitioner.

"It has become appallingly obvious that our technology has surpassed our humanity." -- Albert Einstein

All postings © copyrighted.

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  • 2 years later...

I know this is far too simplified....but....many people dont hit withdrawal until they are many months off ssris (this was the case for me and I was an otherwise healthy young man) I used paxil for 3 years and quit cold turkey...also had a kindling reaction when trying to reinstate the drug..

 

it seems to me that the problems may start due to the UPREGULATION of the serotonin receptors after discontinuing the drug, and this is also why taking the drug again will not help as the serotonin system is far too sensitized (upregulated)

 

I was also a chronic marijuana smoker and last year found that although smoing it helped for a short time, after a while it turned on me in a massive way, all the studies I have read say that Marijuana upregulates serotonin receptors...it left me back at square 1 in my withdrawal

 

also...as I have severe akathisia...I cam across this on the mechanism behind ssri endued akathisia

 

There are several drugs that have no affinity for the  D2 receptor, but do cause akathisia. The most well known are the SSRIs. It has been suggested that SSRIs induce akathisia (and parkinsonism) by indirectly stimulating serotonin (5-HT)2A receptors, which results in inhibition of DA release.1,11 This is in line with the hypothesis that atypical antipsychotics give rise to less akathisia than classical drugs by blocking these serotonin 5-HT2A receptors.1,11,13

 

 

Many people and sites point to downregulation being the issue, and we are waiting not so patiently for serotonin receptors to upregulate...however the start up effects of these drugs are the same as the withdrawal, where it was TOO MUCH serotonin casuing the exact same symptoms, not too little, it appears to me that dopmaine is what we (or I) am lacking in, and not serotonin, but by administering more dopamine when its likely the amounts and receptors are normal (perhaps) would cause dopamine downregulation as the brain would be flooded....is there a way to block the serotonin receptors?? and therefore redirect the dopamine to the cirrect brain areas?

 

I have corresponded with many people, many many years off who are not healed which leads me to doubt that in more severe cases time with correct this damage...or over sensitisation of serotonin receptors, just throwing this theory out there :)

 

I think this happened to me to since I had symptoms of serotonin syndrome after updosing last autumn and I became anhedonic after that. Before updosing I was very very emotional crying and laughing a lot. 

 

Alto said earlier in this thread that drug-induced emotional anesthesia or, in its more persistent version, "treatment-resistant depression," may be an iatrogenic state of maximal receptor downregulation and she also said that others believe the self-regulatory ability breaks; still others think this might happen but the nervous system corrects itself through other receptors (redundancy of systems).

 

So I think that before updosing my body had started to use some other receptors since  I had tapered from 40mg to 4mg and maybe that's why the effect of updosing was toxic to my CNS? So due to that updosing those other receptors became desensitezed too...

Citalopram 40mg from 2003-2015

Jan 2015 started tapering first dropped to 35mgFeb 30mg, March 25mgApril 20mg, May 17,5mg, June 15mgJuly 12,5mg, Aug 12,5mg,

Sep 0mg for 5 days because of stomac flu and after I raised to 7,5mg. All the symptoms of acute WD shaking, diarrhea, vomiting, barely could walk ect. Still didn't realize that it wasn't only stomac flu but I was also going through WD.

Oct 2,5mg and crashed again badly and quickly raised to 4mg. It was then when I knew my symptoms were due to WD.

Then in November after a month holding on 4mg raised to 5mg due to muscle weakness and had a VERY BAD reaction to reinstatement: akathisia(lasted for one or two weeks), insomnia, anhedonia... Drop quicly back to 4mg, Dec 3mg

Jan 2016 2,6mg( in the middle of Jan after I had been on 2,6mg for a week I tried to updose to 2,8mg and immediately had bad reaction to it: akathisia for a day, andehonia got worse. The next day dropped back to 2,6mg), Feb 2,4mg( a new symptom PGAD lasted 24/7 for 2 months after that on and off), March 2,4mg, April 2,3mg, May 2,2mg, June 2,1mg, July 2,0mg( Pgad almost nonexisting, sleeping pretty good, still some anhedonia but there has been a lot of gradual progress), Aug 1,97mg-1,89mg, Sep 1,88mg-1,49mg, Oct 1,48mg- 1,70mg,

Nov 0,65mg- current dose 0,5mg

 

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