Jason: Introduction

[Altostrata]

Jason, people with withdrawal syndrome quite frequently believe they have a dire neurological disorder. This is very, very rarely true.

 

Please see the Symptoms and Self-care forum for suggestions about how to cope with symptoms, including health anxiety.

[Jason]

Jason, people with withdrawal syndrome quite frequently believe they have a dire neurological disorder. This is very, very rarely true.

 

Please see the Symptoms and Self-care forum for suggestions about how to cope with symptoms, including health anxiety.

 

Thank you, Alto.

 

It must be very frustrating as a moderator of these forums to read and re-read these types of posts. I know on the other discussion website for withdrawal I drove many people nuts with my worries. I will take a look at the symptoms and self-care forums and read what I can do to alleviate these fears. Counselling may not be out of the question for me, again, actually.

 

It is so ironic that I never had one single neurological "issue" prior to withdrawal and definitely before drugs, not counting my B12 deficiency (which came about during withdrawal and after I had a bad drug reaction to Prozac to help get me off Effexor - my idea, not a doctor's).

 

I have friends and coworkers see neuros all the time but one friend has migraines and the coworker I know has spine nerve issues related to a car accident. I've seen two neuros three years ago but my problems linger and get worse. I don't know where or how to draw the line.

 

I think anyone taking these drugs should get to have all the free neuro work and their own neuro on hand for when they get off the darn things due to all this nonsense that can happen. I am of course, joking. But boy oh boy, the irony to this all!

 

Jason

[Jason]

Update -

 

Not doing very well at all. Two weeks ago I came down with something. I had fever, chills, severe headaches. What's odd is the first night my mood was dramatically improved. I thought it was withdrawal. But then came the fever and chills. And severe depression with uncontrollable crying spells. Ever since whatever that was I haven't been doing good.

 

I'm really weak now. I can no longer do my dumbbell weights. If I do, I get severe cramping and weakness in both arms. Since I have no idea what is causing this, I have made another appointment for my primary to check this out. This along with all my headaches and dizziness has me worried about something neurological, like a brain tumor or something. Since I'm also not convinced of any of this, I have made an appointment with a naturopath since I think it could all be fungus related. The good news is she takes payment on sliding scale. I need to tell her about my battles with medications and having been exposed to and breathing in mold. Maybe it's all a candida overgrowth now.

 

I also made an appointment with a therapist I used to see. I really need help learning to cope with all these things going on with me.

[alexjuice]

I have had this experience Jason about feeling very good, almost elated at night and then waking up the next day feeling sick. In my case I was eventually able to find out that I had a bug and was able to treat it. I doubt you have a brain tumor man. I get why that'd be scary.

 

I also have a problem with weakness. I can barely lift a gallon jug of water and I have put on 22 pounds since February 2014. I am still too weak. I am working on detoxing mold toxins (still) and it seems like mycotoxins really weaken the muscles.

 

I got a lot worsse earlier in the year when I bought a new organic wool mattress (from the Amish) and it was very contaminated with mold. It took 3 months to get back to stable living.

 

Do you think your environment is at play? Where are you living?

[Jason]

I have had this experience Jason about feeling very good, almost elated at night and then waking up the next day feeling sick. In my case I was eventually able to find out that I had a bug and was able to treat it. I doubt you have a brain tumor man. I get why that'd be scary.

 

I also have a problem with weakness. I can barely lift a gallon jug of water and I have put on 22 pounds since February 2014. I am still too weak. I am working on detoxing mold toxins (still) and it seems like mycotoxins really weaken the muscles.

 

I got a lot worsse earlier in the year when I bought a new organic wool mattress (from the Amish) and it was very contaminated with mold. It took 3 months to get back to stable living.

 

Do you think your environment is at play? Where are you living?

 

Ever since my exposure to mold I have been ill. I'm going to talk to the naturopath about this. Life upside down! As if withdrawal weren't bad enough. Funny thing is, though, it only seems to be affecting my nervous system... gee, I wonder why... (I'm being sarcastic).

[Jason]

update -

 

I have been off antidepressants since February 20, 2012. That means over three years now. I wish I could say that I feel better, but I most certainly do not.

 

I had to switch to Prozac to get off of Effexor as the withdrawal was too deep and too strong. The Prozac was at a low dose, and when I started to feel sick and depressed, I tried to up the dose to only 10 mg with a good psychiatrist. I had a severe adverse reaction affecting my spine and moods. I quickly went back down and tapered off, again, last day, on February 20, 2012.

 

What's been puzzling me are these symptoms. I was diagnosed with B12 deficiency and got it treated. I was diagnosed with D deficiency and also had that treated. That's literally all else that has been wrong with me since the Effexor to Prozac switch, the adverse reaction to Prozac, and the withdrawal from antidepressants altogether. All my bloodwork comes back normal. But I am so ill.

 

I went to see a naturopath who did with me this breathing exercise when I went in to see her. That night I felt all this immediate relief, but felt a sharp pain in my spine, and I attribute this to information that had gotten locked up in my spinal column finally being able to flow. Since that experience, however, now I always have pain in my upper back, spine, and muscles, and it comes and goes, and this is a symptom that I had back in 2011 and 2012. I had it a little bit in 2013, almost never had it in 2014 and didn't have it for the first part of 2015, but now all of a sudden it is back.

 

I just don't know what to do or what to think anymore. I worry that this could be undiagnosed cancer, which is why I had B12 and D deficiencies from the cancer sucking the life out of me. I get so weak, confused, dizzy, and my back now hurts real bad from time to time.

 

I really don't know what is wrong with me, and if it really is all withdrawal related, why did the symptom disappear for almost 2 years only to come back? Is there really something going on in my back? A mass of tissue that is robbing me of my vitality? How can that be? Wouldn't bloodwork find that???

 

My naturopath said there is definitely hope for me when I asked her if I am a lost cause. She said she didn't think I am a lost cause that there is of course hope for me. but I don't know. I don't see it. Sometimes.

[stan]

maybe...because i have back pain and read several testimonies

psy meds act on muscles contraction or relaxing, there is a balance between meds and body with years, the homeostasy

 

when we stop the antidepressants or benzos, the muscles are no more in homeostasie, so people have rigidity or opposite(because when you take a med, one will become skinny, and another super fat, it goes in one side or the other, but not in the middle, good balanced as before swallowing brain meds, it is same for blood pressure, or high or too low, and skin, too much grow(psoriasis) ot too less, without oil ....)

 

and for me spine keeps with muscles, so when we stop, cold turkey or not, spine moves too much and it gives pains, we are earlier old

[Jason]

Yes, but I've been off close to four years now. Still I am having symptoms? I get very thin, wasting away, pains, these are classic cancer symptoms. The only thing that doesn't make sense is if the symptoms went away for a couple years and come back. Cancer doesn't do that. But withdrawal would.

 

Something very very bad happened to my body in 2011. Will never ever know what it was. I'm sure it's this (wd), but really? How can that be??? How on earth can that be? Can anybody answer that for me? Nobody can. And it pisses me off. (Sorry, but I'm angry and scared and weak and tired.)

[Jason]

I have not chimed in on this board in over a year, but I wanted to post a message.

 

I haven't been doing well. At all. So poorly, in fact, that I've actually sought help from traditional psychiatry again. I've been prescribed some hydroxyzine for anxiety that I can use as needed as an alternative to benzodiazepines, and, I requested to go back on an antidepressant. I know that I have struggled with antidepressants in the past and had a hard time coming off of them, but, to be honest my quality of life and general ability to function lately have rendered me very ill. I have plenty of support in the medical field with my decision, and it is not one I made lightly. I've decided to give citalopram (Celexa) another try. Honestly, it was one of the only times in my adult life that I was truly happy, and I never experienced as much difficulty with that one as I had with Effexor (severe withdrawal) and Prozac (adverse reaction). All my providers know this about me and are definitely willing to work with me.

 

I have only taken two days worth of the citalopram, at only 10mg a piece. I will stay with this dose for 1-2 weeks, then move up to 20. 

 

This is not meant to deter anyone coming off. Trust me. I understand. I don't think anyone really wants to be on these drugs. And maybe someday I can come off again. And maybe I won't. But for now, my mind is made up as to my life at this point in time. 

[scallywag]

Is your doctor suggesting the increase in 2 weeks to 20 mg?  Have you considered asking about remaining at 10 mg for 4-6 weeks to see if you get symptom relief?

 

With any medication, it's rarely harmful to try to find the lowest effective dose.

[Jason]

Is your doctor suggesting the increase in 2 weeks to 20 mg?  Have you considered asking about remaining at 10 mg for 4-6 weeks to see if you get symptom relief?

 

With any medication, it's rarely harmful to try to find the lowest effective dose.

 

Yes, that's correct. And you're right. I could stay at 10 mg if I felt safer. No one would advise against it I am sure. 

[ChessieCat]

I realise that these have tapering in the topic title but I still think you may find some helpful tips about how to talk to medical professionals.

 

How do you talk to a doctor about tapering and withdrawal?

What should I expect from my doctor about withdrawal symptoms?

[Jason]

I realise that these have tapering in the topic title but I still think you may find some helpful tips about how to talk to medical professionals.

 

How do you talk to a doctor about tapering and withdrawal?

What should I expect from my doctor about withdrawal symptoms?

 

Thank you for sharing these, Chessie.  It can be hard to talk to some doctors about this, especially when they don't realize the depth. I will say this, however.  I have noticed more and more medical professionals coming around with regards to realizing that withdrawal from SSRIs is real and sometimes not as manageable as they once thought. The doctors I have seen during my taper off many years ago were somewhat awakened.  And the psychiatrist who helped me taper off said he always lets the patient go off as slow as they want. Super super slow.

[mammaP]

Hi Jason, doctors almost always start on a low dose then double it in a short time. There is nothing to say that you will be any better with 20mg and could be stable at 10, its just something the drug companies have recommended. I hope everything goes ok for you.

[Jason]

Hi Jason, doctors almost always start on a low dose then double it in a short time. There is nothing to say that you will be any better with 20mg and could be stable at 10, its just something the drug companies have recommended. I hope everything goes ok for you.

 

Thank you, mammaP. 

[andy013]

Hi Jason, I just read a few of your posts here and you seem to be in a similar situation to me. I too have long term damage from these drugs. I just wondered exactly what symptoms were you still experiencing? Were you able to work and live a normal life? I too often think about reinstating the SSRI to see if it would help me, but of course after what has happened to me the first time I am terrified it would make me even worse. I hope it goes well for you.

[JanCarol]

Andy013:  Please be careful with the word "damage."  Long time dependency is probably more accurate.  Most "damage" can be healed, recovered from.  Neuroplasticity and all that.  My husband has recovered 99% from a hole in his brain due to stroke.  The hole is still there, but he walks, he talks, he does complex calculations.  Neuroplasticity is real.

 

 I'm concerned about the Vistaril, too, Jason.  It's touted as an alternative to benzos, but it can be just as addictive and just as hard to come off.

 

If you are going to take them, it would be better to take a low dose every day, instead of PRN, based on this Cochrane review:

https://www.nationalelfservice.net/treatment/medicine/cochrane-find-no-evidence-for-as-required-prn-medication-for-mental-health-inpatients/

Anecdotal evidence suggests that access to PRN may complicate the clinical picture, on occasions leading to dependency associated with benzodiazepines. Benzodiazepines themselves are generally considered a safe medication in the short term. However, they can cause people to act in a more disinhibited manner causing further behavioural disturbances. PRN is potentially a trigger point to more coercive interventions, particularly when requests for extra medication are denied by staff or service users choose not to accept them. This often leads to forced medication, restraint or seclusion (Bowers et al, 2012).

 

See - here's the quandry - while Vistaril is not a benzo, it does a similar thing.  You are uptight, you take a chill pill, and it works.  For awhile.  Until it doesn't anymore, and then you need more of it to get the effect.

 

So - based on my understanding of the dangers of PRN, if you have to take Vistaril, consider taking a low dose every day, instead of saving it for those "tense times," because you will find that those "tense times" come more frequently using PRN, and you are likely to PRN more often over time.

 

It would be much better for you to use:  Dr. Claire Weekes - Recovering from a Sensitized Nervous System instead of a PRN

 

or:  http://www.getselfhelp.co.uk/music/FirstAidPanicF.mp3  (upload it to your phone so it is available to you anytime)

 

As for 10mg vs. 20 mg of Celexa?  The difference on plasma occupation is negligible, but if your goal is to someday come off of it, it would be better if you can stick to the lower dose.
 

"Therapeutic doses" are determined by drug companies who have a vested interest in keeping you on higher doses of their drugs.  (the "baseline therapeutic dose" for Celexa is 20 mg, but we have members who are doing well on a lot less than that.)

 

If 10 mg is enough to make you feel better, then stop there.  Don't let the doctor bully you into conforming to "therapeutic doses" given to him by the drug companies!  (I'm glad to see you don't think this will be a problem.) Just tell him you want to be on the lowest possible dose.

 

Additionally, if you are having to take the Vistaril to deal with the side effects of the Celexa, that's not a good sign, either.

 

Breathe, you can get through this - just think about "minimum possible doses," and that will help.

Please update your signature so that we can know what is happening with you!

 

I hope you see the sun today!

[Jason]

Hi Jason, I just read a few of your posts here and you seem to be in a similar situation to me. I too have long term damage from these drugs. I just wondered exactly what symptoms were you still experiencing? Were you able to work and live a normal life? I too often think about reinstating the SSRI to see if it would help me, but of course after what has happened to me the first time I am terrified it would make me even worse. I hope it goes well for you.

 

Hi andy,

 

Trust me you do not have long-term damage from them. I used to think that way, too, but that really does not happen. I think the worst thing that actually happens to the nerves is there is abnormal activity at the synapses and that's about it. It is not damage at all. Nerves change and grow (called branching) all the time. So just focus on that if you can rather than on what the drugs may have "done" to you. 

 

I really don't advocate restarting an SSRI. I tried during withdrawal and it did not work well for me. As for me right now, I can honestly say I am probably not in withdrawal anymore. I am at my baseline, and if you can believe it, it actually is worse than when I was in withdrawal. I have no appetite, pervasive low mood with negative harmful thoughts. I can't make friends or build relationships. I can't think. I have been having a hard time driving anywhere without severe panic and doom. These are things that before I had ever even started drugs were happening to me. Maybe not as bad as they are now, but they were happening to me. I'm pretty sure I'm at my baseline, and I just can't muster through it right now. It may just be a rough patch for me. 

[Jason]

Andy013:  Please be careful with the word "damage."  Long time dependency is probably more accurate.  Most "damage" can be healed, recovered from.  Neuroplasticity and all that.  My husband has recovered 99% from a hole in his brain due to stroke.  The hole is still there, but he walks, he talks, he does complex calculations.  Neuroplasticity is real.

 

 I'm concerned about the Vistaril, too, Jason.  It's touted as an alternative to benzos, but it can be just as addictive and just as hard to come off.

 

If you are going to take them, it would be better to take a low dose every day, instead of PRN, based on this Cochrane review:

https://www.nationalelfservice.net/treatment/medicine/cochrane-find-no-evidence-for-as-required-prn-medication-for-mental-health-inpatients/

Anecdotal evidence suggests that access to PRN may complicate the clinical picture, on occasions leading to dependency associated with benzodiazepines. Benzodiazepines themselves are generally considered a safe medication in the short term. However, they can cause people to act in a more disinhibited manner causing further behavioural disturbances. PRN is potentially a trigger point to more coercive interventions, particularly when requests for extra medication are denied by staff or service users choose not to accept them. This often leads to forced medication, restraint or seclusion (Bowers et al, 2012).

 

See - here's the quandry - while Vistaril is not a benzo, it does a similar thing.  You are uptight, you take a chill pill, and it works.  For awhile.  Until it doesn't anymore, and then you need more of it to get the effect.

 

So - based on my understanding of the dangers of PRN, if you have to take Vistaril, consider taking a low dose every day, instead of saving it for those "tense times," because you will find that those "tense times" come more frequently using PRN, and you are likely to PRN more often over time.

 

It would be much better for you to use:  Dr. Claire Weekes - Recovering from a Sensitized Nervous System instead of a PRN

 

or:  http://www.getselfhelp.co.uk/music/FirstAidPanicF.mp3  (upload it to your phone so it is available to you anytime)

 

As for 10mg vs. 20 mg of Celexa?  The difference on plasma occupation is negligible, but if your goal is to someday come off of it, it would be better if you can stick to the lower dose.

 

"Therapeutic doses" are determined by drug companies who have a vested interest in keeping you on higher doses of their drugs.  (the "baseline therapeutic dose" for Celexa is 20 mg, but we have members who are doing well on a lot less than that.)

 

If 10 mg is enough to make you feel better, then stop there.  Don't let the doctor bully you into conforming to "therapeutic doses" given to him by the drug companies!  (I'm glad to see you don't think this will be a problem.) Just tell him you want to be on the lowest possible dose.

 

Additionally, if you are having to take the Vistaril to deal with the side effects of the Celexa, that's not a good sign, either.

 

Breathe, you can get through this - just think about "minimum possible doses," and that will help.

 

Please update your signature so that we can know what is happening with you!

 

I hope you see the sun today!

 

Hi JanCarol,

 

Wow I never knew this about hydroxyzine. I do notice that I have not been taking it as often, which is good. It is techincally an antihistamine, but I do know that that doesn't mean it isn't without potential for withdrawal effects. I really would not like to take it daily, however. More as-needed but very very very rarely, as if it were benzodiazepines. I will try to focus on more breathing-focused calming going forward, as it does work. 

 

I do have to admit that I think what is going on with me, at least in part, is I had been abusing alcohol somewhat heavily for a period of several months. I started to crash last November and December. I've relayed this to the doctors I have been seeing and they really think that is a part of this. In fact, I notice that when I take a benzo, I feel better, meaning all my GABA levels have been affected by my stupidity in so much drinking. It's my own fault and I am now paying the price.

 

As for the restarting of the SSRI, yes, I want to keep it as low as possible. But, and I can't believe I'm saying this given my overall opinion of these drugs, I really do want to be on one now, at a low dose. I've taken this particular one in the past and had really no "problem" with it. I stayed on it for years and never needed to increase the dose. The only reason I was switched to Effexor is I made the stupid mistake of telling my doctor that I was more depressed since my mother's passing away, and he took that to mean change up the drug I suppose. And at the time, I knew nothing of the potential of these drugs or anything. I just followed doctor's orders and thought nothing of it. 

 

So, bottom line, I will stay on a low dose of citalopram, probably just the 10mg. I will stop using the hydroxyzine for panic or uncomfortable anxiety and try breathing first. If the breathing really doesn't work, I may take one, but not let that become a habit. I will let my brain's GABA naturally re-adjust over time (I've already noticed it starting to do this) by laying off benzo use and heavy use of alcohol. I'll continue therapy as well. 

 

Let me update my signature right now to state that I'm going to try to re-start citalopram at 10.

[JanCarol]

Well done, Jason for addressing your alcohol thing.

 

Oh yeah, that can take a PAWS and really throw it for a loop - 

 

so it's a comfort that you are reinstating.

 

So your hope is to move the vistaril doses further and further apart?

 

I use an excel spreadsheet to track my use of pain drugs - to ensure that the intervals are (on average) lengthening instead of getting closer together.  Or you can make a mark on the calendar.  I encourage you to track it, so that it doesn't sneak up on you.  The PRN admonishment in the article above is that - nearly everyone ends up increasing their doses and frequency over time.

 

(note:  "antipsychotics" or neuroleptics - are related to antihistamines, too.  As is Mirtazapine.  So - just because it's an "antihistamine" doesn't mean it's good for your brain - and if you are dealing with addiction - well - it's dancing with another devil.  Vistaril is what it is because it has a psych effect.)

 

So - you doing any 12 step?  I've also heard good things from Claudia Christian, who is affiliated with a book called "One Little Pill."  She has a TED talk about it.  I don't struggle with alcohol, and I'm not recommending a drug, I don't know how dire your straits are.  I hope you are getting the support you need, and I'm glad you came to us to fill us in with what is happening.

 

I hope you see the sun today!

[Jason]

Good morning!

 

What does PAWS stand for? I'm gonna guess here, but I'm not sure if I'm right - post antidepressant withdrawal syndrome? Or protracted?

 

Drinking really did throw me for a loop. I was using alcohol at first more socially because I was "feeling better." I really was. Then it became to mask my strange pain symptoms in my upper back. Then the use became out of being bored (I would go out to socialize at bars, not drink alone at home). Then it just spiraled out of control to where I was skipping meals, becoming heavily intoxicated several nights a week. It just fell apart. No 12 step for me. I really never got to a point where I was not functioning, until it made my anxiety and depression so much worse. It is my birthday tomorrow, and I am going to drink tonight, responsibly and sensibly. I no longer go on these binge drinking episodes, which is what my therapist stated I was doing (I didn't know that's what it was). 

 

Yes, my goal with hydroxyzine is quite frankly to not use it at all anymore. It's a great antihistamine but I don't know that I like it so much. It feels weird on a daily basis, and doesn't do a whole lot for severe panic, which I already have klonopin for. Plus I read that long-term use can have negative unwanted consequences such as tardive dyskinesia (spelling???) which sounds horrifying to me. 

 

No side effects from the citalopram. And I suspect I won't have any. I never did when I started this drug way, way back in 2003 or 2004 that I could remember. All it did was improve my mood and lower my anxiety. I'll stay on the lowest possible dose. Bottom line, I don't like taking psychiatric drugs. But I have to be able to function and have a quality of life. I understand that it may mean having to deal with everything this forum is about again at some point. But I have to do what's right for me right now. I can't continue to suffer this much anymore. And if it means taking a small dose of a drug it means taking a small dose of a drug. Deal with things as they come.

[JanCarol]

Klonopin?

 

Please list all drugs in your signature.

 

Or - is this a stash you keep around for severe emergencies?

 

HAPPY BIRTHDAY!

 

 

ps:  PAWS = Protracted Antidepressant Withdrawal Syndrome (you got it!)

[Jason]

Klonopin?

 

Please list all drugs in your signature.

 

Or - is this a stash you keep around for severe emergencies?

 

HAPPY BIRTHDAY!

 

 

ps:  PAWS = Protracted Antidepressant Withdrawal Syndrome (you got it!)

 

Yes I'm sorry. It is just for emergencies only. I do not use this drug daily. For example, I flew to Denver in January. I used one on the way there and one on the way back to Phoenix. For the flight. 

 

I will update my signature to state that I do use this only as needed (I know, again, the dreaded PRN). 

 

Thank you. I hope to enjoy my birthday.  I'll keep everyone posted on how I'm doing.