Altoid: 4.5 yr off, bad wave!

[Altoid]

 

Have you tried acupuncture and chiropractic? They helped me when I had nerve pain in my arms and shoulders.

Hey, I am curious what kind of nerve pain in arms and shoulders you guys are talking about.  I have been dealing with bad tendonitis in my left shoulder and slight in my right. The pain is like no other I have ever felt.  Been going to PT and its helping some.  My left arm/shoulder is so weak I can barley pick up anything slightly heavy.  So the pain you guys talk about is that making your arms/muscles weak, or is it just pain??  I have no idea how this all started, I did not do anything to cause it, just kinda came on shortly after I stopped my Effexor.  Any info. would be great! 

 

The pain we are talking about in often a burning nerve feeling, tension/tightness in muscles about the neck/shoulders/back/scalp, which in my opinion, the muscle tightness is squeezing nerves. Stiffness, and just all out pain of a hard to describe type. It often has a weak feeling attached to it, but it's more of a generalized weak feeling, as opposed to just one body part. Sometimes the nerve pain can be in weird places like your teeth! The last month or so the center of my tongue has felt like I burned it on hot food, though I have not.  It's just pain w/o any real source or cause, but it usually has some sort of stiffness with it. At the moment, I feel a medium low grade pain in the deep tissue of my back. If I press on the area, there is no painful spot to be found. To some degree, I've learned to tune it out.

[Altoid]

THATS WONDERFUL NEWS ALTOID, I have been thinking of you, stress can most definitly affect w/d and bring on waves and I suspect that the antibiotic played its part, but its very promising that your reaction has been reletivly short lived and you are already seeing improvement. thanks for telling us, all too often we never hear when things are better and that can present a very bad picture of withdrawal, but I get it, when I have felt better I have moved away from the forums more, when it gets bad I come crawling back begging for help/

 

more healing to you. xx

Thanks for the encouragement. After having felt so much better for months, the wave was a huge blow to me. I really thought that was all behind me forever. 4 months has felt like a very long time. I am now comitted to not pushing myself like I normally would.  Pushing, over-doing, A/Bs, getting sick, twice, and all that was just too many straws on the camel's back. I too appreciate it when people come back with an update, Esp when it's encouraging. But I can see distancing yourself from it all when you are feeling good too, I have done it myself. You just want to forget it!!

[Iggy131313]

well lets hope that was your last horrah!

 

the further you get from it Im sure the less reaction you will have to all those factors, allow yourslef to move away from it again now and enjoy life and how precious it is.

 

much love

 

caroline x

[Fitby50]

 

 

Have you tried acupuncture and chiropractic? They helped me when I had nerve pain in my arms and shoulders.

Hey, I am curious what kind of nerve pain in arms and shoulders you guys are talking about.  I have been dealing with bad tendonitis in my left shoulder and slight in my right. The pain is like no other I have ever felt.  Been going to PT and its helping some.  My left arm/shoulder is so weak I can barley pick up anything slightly heavy.  So the pain you guys talk about is that making your arms/muscles weak, or is it just pain??  I have no idea how this all started, I did not do anything to cause it, just kinda came on shortly after I stopped my Effexor.  Any info. would be great! 

 

The pain we are talking about in often a burning nerve feeling, tension/tightness in muscles about the neck/shoulders/back/scalp, which in my opinion, the muscle tightness is squeezing nerves. Stiffness, and just all out pain of a hard to describe type. It often has a weak feeling attached to it, but it's more of a generalized weak feeling, as opposed to just one body part. Sometimes the nerve pain can be in weird places like your teeth! The last month or so the center of my tongue has felt like I burned it on hot food, though I have not.  It's just pain w/o any real source or cause, but it usually has some sort of stiffness with it. At the moment, I feel a medium low grade pain in the deep tissue of my back. If I press on the area, there is no painful spot to be found. To some degree, I've learned to tune it out.

 

Thanks Alto!  I guess that's kinda what I have been having too.  My shoulder blades and back seem tense all the time, and some days I have that burning weak feeling in my whole body.  My shoulder problem is probably just being made more intense by the w/d issues.  I have pretty much cut all sugar out of my diet bcuz I know it can cause inflammation in the body.

[Meimeiquest]

Dear Altoid,

 

Welcome! Just a random thought, we know that abx are hard on the gut flora, and that gut flora makes a large percentage of the body's serotonin (I had the joy of a colonoscopy yesterday so thinking about this stuff).

[Altostrata]

It is interesting to me to learn Vit D is needed to make serotonin... I have noticed a lot of people in withdrawal have low serotonin.  ....

I'm sorry, I doubt anyone has low serotonin, in withdrawal or elsewhere. The gut is filled with liters of serotonin. Serotonin is all over the body. Potentiall low serotonin in the brain has been thoroughly explored but no evidence of it has ever been found.

 

This is a legacy of the "chemical imbalance" theory. There's no there there.

[Nikki]

Altoid....

 

I had back surgery after switching from Paxil to Lexapro.  I was doing well with the crossover and then after the surgery I was a wreck.  The Ortho told me that the anesthesia is a mixture of drugs and they affect the receptors in the brain which set off the WD which if did not have before the surgery.

 

For me, antibiotics, pain medication and anesthesia affecte me in a bad way.  I was always sensitive to drugs, but  that changed Big Time from antidepressants.

 

I would not be at all surprised if this is what has happened to you.  I took amoxicillian many, many times as a child and adult.  Now all of a sudden I get hives.  Go figure............

 

I remember your name from---------.org

 

Celeste aka Nikki

[Altoid]

Hi Nikki,

 I remember you too!

 

Alto, correct me if I'm wrong:

 I thought the cause of w/d is that by taking at a/d, you are causing the receptors to be flooded with serotonin, and over a period of time, the body figures out it doesn't have to make so much serotonin anymore, so it gets lazy in that dept. and also the receptors eventually atrophy from being flooded with serotonin, and not having to 'work' anymore.

The way out of w/d is by those damaged receptor to either be replaced by new one, or repaired, which can take a really long time, and vary greatly from person to person. 

So when a person says to someone in w/d, "Isn't that stuff out of your system yet"? That is not the problem at all, the problem is the damage the drug caused.  Your body not only has to fix the damage to the receptors, but has to remember how to make and use the serotonin, once the drug in removed from the picture.

[Iggy131313]

altiod, no one really knows what w/d syndrome is, thats a pretty good guess and what alot of us think, alto has written a great piece on w/d syndrome..its in symptoms and self care what is withdrawal syndrome.

 

I asked David Healy about receptors, he said to me that much reseach has been done on receptors and nothing has been found (I was slightly dubious about this) he said if anyone talks about receptors ignore it!!

 

also if it was as simple as that then people would have the same kind of symptoms and recover in a more linier way, I deffo think thats part of the issue here, but its what happens to the rest of the bodys processes once its dealing with the receptor issues, 

 

I wish we uderstood it, it would help take soon of the mystery (and therefore fear) away, but I guess we have to cope with the unknown. x

[Rhiannon]

It's correct that there's a lot of serotonin in the body. It does other things besides act as a neurotransmitter. 

 

Iggy, you're so fortunate to have gotten to talk to David Healy. I would love to have a good long conversation with that man.

[Iggy131313]

thanks rhi, he is my Dr, hes lovely although he doesnt send very long emails back lol

[Altoid]

I would bet that the drug companies have a LOT of information as to what these drugs do, that has never and will never be relseased.

I agree, there must be something more to it that only receptor damage, otherwise, how can it be explained that a person can be going along relatively fine for a perid of time, then suddently relapse? 

People do recover from things at different rates though. Like two people that both get a cold, and one is over it in a couple of days, and the other had it for weeks.

I have know people who could take any drug a doctor dished out with no side effects at all. I have not been one of them!

[Altoid]

Well poo......................

Just when I thought the wave was over.............. Today has not been so good!!!!

 

Ugg...............

 

Just had to vent!

[lexicon]

Thinking of you Altoid.

I am so sorry you had a bad day ..Tomorrow will be a better day ..

I will pray for your wellness and healing.

Stay strong ..xx

Lexi

[Altoid]

Thanks Lexi. I have you in my prayers too.

BTW: My name is Dawn <><

[btdt]

 

It is interesting to me to learn Vit D is needed to make serotonin... I have noticed a lot of people in withdrawal have low serotonin.  ....

I'm sorry, I doubt anyone has low serotonin, in withdrawal or elsewhere. The gut is filled with liters of serotonin. Serotonin is all over the body. Potentiall low serotonin in the brain has been thoroughly explored but no evidence of it has ever been found.

 

This is a legacy of the "chemical imbalance" theory. There's no there there.

 

Interesting Alto I think you may be right as I have come to expect you usually are.  I have been gathering information and looking for accepted causes for the depression that affects anyone who goes cold turkey is there any sold reasoning for what causes this if it is not related to serotonin?  

 

I quoted a scientific article way back sorry don't have a link for you too beat up to look for it just now... 

it was an explanation for withdrawal... which you have just pointed out has not be confirmed... 

 

I recently re thought the entire premises of calling this "withdrawal"  maybe it isn't the right term... maybe a better word would be damage. 

 

So forty years post market are we just as much in the dark as we were when the drugs started out.  

I would appreciate any link you could send ...or even better layman termed explanation if you have one and links to back it up... 

Thanks Alto

[btdt]

Hi Canada Member, Sorry, I don't see a 'name'.

The Vit D thing is interesting, and a couple of months ago I stumbled on the info that D is needed to make Serotonin. Of course, a lot of other things are needed as well.

Living in San Diego, and being outdoors a lot, I never gave this much thought. I am kind of a 'vitamin guru', in that I am well versed on them, supplents, natural, etc. My normal daily compliment of vitamins includes 600 IU of D.

A couple of people I know that live in my area found out they were deficient in D, and are now taking higher doses of D. My Doctor said she takes 1000 IU daily, her her husband takes 2000 IU, because he is darker skinned and dark skin she said doesn't make as much D.  So AFTER the wave hit, I added 1000 IU more of D. I capitalize AFTER, so that it's clear taking it didn't cause the wave.

I am not one that reacts much to supplements. Even taking all sorts of stuff like Valerian, Passion Flower, etc. during w/d has had little effect on me at all, though drugs on the other hand, are a different story.

The best way to get D is simply to go out in the sun. I am making concerted effort to make sure I get plenty of sun. I have never subscribed to the theories of sunshine being bad for your skin, and sunscreen which is laden with chemicals being your friend. I just don't use it, God created us to take in D from the sun, and you cannot if you are covered up or covered with sunscreen, hence the modern day epidemic of D deficiency.  The actual cause of skin cancer is not the sun, it's the lack of anti-oxidants in the skin, from a sadly lacking American diet.  I do thinkg there is great merit to getting out in the sun every day. Studies show people who are outside have less depression that those who do not, and that can likely be highly related to D intake. So if you can't take a D supplement, just get outside. Might be a little more challenging in Canada that here. 

So I am not 4 months since the wave hit. I now realize that a series of stressful events likely brought it on. At 4 months from the onset, and I just now getting better days. I trust the end is in sight. 

I live in Ontario the weather is often way too hot here.  I am a moderate weather person... when it gets too hot as it often does here I am home with the air conditioner on.  

[Altoid]

. 

 

I recently re thought the entire premises of calling this "withdrawal"  maybe it isn't the right term... maybe a better word would be damage. 

 

 

 

 

I'm not an expert, but.............If you take and SSRI and it alters they way your brain/receptors use Serotonin, that is damage in my book.  SSRIs keep the receptors flooded with Serotonin. You become accustomed to it. If you withdraw the SSRI, your brain wants to know where it's Serotonin bath went. 

So whether the withdrawal symptoms come from your body freaking out because it wants the Serotonin bath back, or because the brain has been altered by the drug and no longer functions normally, it's all damage. And brain damage takes a long time to heal.

[btdt]

I read an article once about baboon brains having twisted deformed receptors at autopsy 7 years after taking zoloft.  

I have also read articles stating the body damages the receptors because there is too much serotonin... with drugging... and the body stops making as much serotonin... same reason ...too much with the drug.    

The low serotonin idea came from this... when you quit taking the drug and your system has been altered with damaged receptors and your body making less serotonin... cold turkey effects result because your body has not had time to upregulate serotonin production or to grow new receptors.  I would like to hear Altos thoughts on this if if she so desires I will dig up the articles ...

Once they were stored on my computer before that computer died but I can likely find them again.  

 

Please Alto a comment on this or would you like to read the articles before commenting? 

[btdt]

Link to another post called why is this called withdrawal?

 

Is that all it actually is?

 

http://www.topix.com/forum/drug/effexor/T91RCTO60TE82NMSR

 

 

Is it right to call it withdrawal after all this time?

[Altoid]

I read an article once about baboon brains having twisted deformed receptors at autopsy 7 years after taking zoloft.  

I have also read articles stating the body damages the receptors because there is too much serotonin... with drugging... and the body stops making as much serotonin... same reason ...too much with the drug.    

The low serotonin idea came from this... when you quit taking the drug and your system has been altered with damaged receptors and your body making less serotonin... cold turkey effects result because your body has not had time to upregulate serotonin production or to grow new receptors.  I would like to hear Altos thoughts on this if if she so desires I will dig up the articles ...

Once they were stored on my computer before that computer died but I can likely find them again.  

 

Please Alto a comment on this or would you like to read the articles before commenting? 

 

That is really interesting about the Baboon brains! I don't doubt it, and obviously the drug companies know this. 

I go with this theory that you said, which is the same as what I said. It's not only that the receptors are damaged, but the body is no longer producing enough Serotonin. It had a drug doing for for it, and got lazy. This reminds me of what happens when people take drugs like Prilosec, or Zantac. It makes the body stop producing so much acid, so then the body makes more to try to compensate. Then when the person stops taking the drug, they are in worst condition because now the body is making more acid than ever! The body is an amazing machine, and will compensate however it needs to, to attempt to be 'normal'. And when a drug is forcing all that Serotonin to remain on the receptors, the body just stops making as much, and the receptors atrophy.

 

 On an interesting note: Yesterday I was cleaning out old books, and found a PDR, physician's desk reference, from 1999. I opened up to Paxil. The list of adverse withdrawal symptoms was a mile long! All the stuff people here have and more. One that stuck out was 'Neck Rigidity'. Hmm, how many here have has a stiff neck? This stuff is known in the medical world! So why do most doctors have no clue? It's in a book they should be reading before prescribing drugs. There was also a list of side effects. That too was enough it would scare almost anyone away from taking it. 

 I wish I would have read this book before I ever popped that pill!

[btdt]

 

I read an article once about baboon brains having twisted deformed receptors at autopsy 7 years after taking zoloft.  

I have also read articles stating the body damages the receptors because there is too much serotonin... with drugging... and the body stops making as much serotonin... same reason ...too much with the drug.    

The low serotonin idea came from this... when you quit taking the drug and your system has been altered with damaged receptors and your body making less serotonin... cold turkey effects result because your body has not had time to upregulate serotonin production or to grow new receptors.  I would like to hear Altos thoughts on this if if she so desires I will dig up the articles ...

Once they were stored on my computer before that computer died but I can likely find them again.  

 

Please Alto a comment on this or would you like to read the articles before commenting? 

 

That is really interesting about the Baboon brains! I don't doubt it, and obviously the drug companies know this. 

I go with this theory that you said, which is the same as what I said. It's not only that the receptors are damaged, but the body is no longer producing enough Serotonin. It had a drug doing for for it, and got lazy. This reminds me of what happens when people take drugs like Prilosec, or Zantac. It makes the body stop producing so much acid, so then the body makes more to try to compensate. Then when the person stops taking the drug, they are in worst condition because now the body is making more acid than ever! The body is an amazing machine, and will compensate however it needs to, to attempt to be 'normal'. And when a drug is forcing all that Serotonin to remain on the receptors, the body just stops making as much, and the receptors atrophy.

 

 On an interesting note: Yesterday I was cleaning out old books, and found a PDR, physician's desk reference, from 1999. I opened up to Paxil. The list of adverse withdrawal symptoms was a mile long! All the stuff people here have and more. One that stuck out was 'Neck Rigidity'. Hmm, how many here have has a stiff neck? This stuff is known in the medical world! So why do most doctors have no clue? It's in a book they should be reading before prescribing drugs. There was also a list of side effects. That too was enough it would scare almost anyone away from taking it. 

 I wish I would have read this book before I ever popped that pill!

 

I think doctors just can't remember all they read or maybe they don't read all they should I just don't know there is the idea that drug companies put ads in doc journals that are lies.. yes they do they have had to pay fines for it but by then the damage is done and it is another "cost"of doing business which is booming.  It is hard to know what exactly is going on as so much of it never gets to the light of day.  

As for us thinking this is the way it works... Alto does not agree...

"It is interesting to me to learn Vit D is needed to make serotonin... I have noticed a lot of people in withdrawal have low serotonin.  ....

I'm sorry, I doubt anyone has low serotonin, in withdrawal or elsewhere. The gut is filled with liters of serotonin. Serotonin is all over the body. Potentiall low serotonin in the brain has been thoroughly explored but no evidence of it has ever been found.

 

This is a legacy of the "chemical imbalance" theory. There's no there there." 

 

That is what she said in a previous post and out of respect for her knowledge and sound thinking I am waiting on her to reply to see what she does think.  Maybe what we think is right but there is no proof maybe that his what she is saying don't want to speculate would rather wait and see her reply.  

 

I sure wish somebody would figure out what is going on and how to fix it. 

 

I wonder what they know in the medical world.  I think pharma knows way more than doctors and they don't have to tell us once they buy up the science they own it....

for what they tell doctors well that is another story addressed by one doctor in this utube video... you may like to watch 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RKmxL8VYy0M

[Altoid]

Aside from dissecting brains/bodies, it's pretty hard to prove anything.

There are theories out there, I guess we each can have our own opinion. The baboon brain thing is a pretty convincing piece of evidence though.

 I have read stories from Big Pharma whistle blowers, saying they were paid to go give speals to doctors at conferences about their drugs, and offer them big kickbacks, paid vacations, etc. for prescribing their drugs. These people giving this information were nothing more than trained by the drug companies on what to tell them. There have been doctors that have come forth and confessed that drug companies did pay them huge kickbacks for prescribing their drugs. 

I can personally attest to this, when an allergist I took my son to repeatedly insisted that he take Zyrtec, 24/7. He would not listen to a word I had to say, that he had tried it and it did not help him. He just kept insisting, and finally filled up a bag with samples of Zyrtec, and ended the visit.  He had a huge bowl of it like a bowl of candy! 

Drug companies do allot a certain amount of money to pay off those who sue for damage, and they consider it part of business. By the time anyone is damaged, they will have made millions, or more on their drug. The FDA does little to prove a drug is 'safe' anymore. A drug company only has to submit their OWN testing/trials, to the FDA, showing the drug had a better rate of success than a placebo, and that the drug was safer than a natural way of dealing with the problem. There is no independent clinical trials required anymore.

You can bet the companies know the damage drugs do, but it's all about money.

[alex]

Hello, I want to say that maybe we should try to post things that are positive and reassuring for the members of this forum, instead of baboons twisted brain.

 

I can say for myself, that I have been seeing important improvement in the last few weeks, after 10 loooong and hellish months.

It does get better; there is enough fear already, spreading more fear instead of hope, wont do any good.

 

I am sorry if this sounds a bit blunt, but that is the way I feel it.

 

I AM GETTING BETTER!! This is my message for all my felllow sufferers.

[Altoid]

Sorry Silver Star if this conversation upset you. Was not intended to, we were just discussing the facts, and it led where it led.

Damaged receptors or not, the fact is that brains DO heal. We do heal!! The body is amazing. I am glad you are getting relief.

But for a lot of people, brains can take a long time to heal, and when you are going through it, it feels even longer.

I guess the baboon thing is validation that it's not something 'imagined', which has been suggested many times. Not on this site, but in other places and from doctors.

God bless!

[alex]

It`s ok, it`s just that I think that we should try to focus on the positive; it is very important in this process I think.

If we are having a hard time with symptoms, I think it`s ok to talk about them, but I believe we must try to keep it positive.

 

I am not religious, but God bless you too.

[Altoid]

I have avoided many threads on the 'other' site, in the past, cause they were not productive for me. But the thing is, the person who was making those posts really needed someone to talk to about it. It just was not good for ME to read it. I know it can be hard to guess whats in a thread, unless the topic gives it away. 

[btdt]

Hello, I want to say that maybe we should try to post things that are positive and reassuring for the members of this forum, instead of baboons twisted brain.

 

I can say for myself, that I have been seeing important improvement in the last few weeks, after 10 loooong and hellish months.

It does get better; there is enough fear already, spreading more fear instead of hope, wont do any good.

 

I am sorry if this sounds a bit blunt, but that is the way I feel it.

 

I AM GETTING BETTER!! This is my message for all my felllow sufferers.

Sorry to freak you out I have been in that place and found these type of articles upsetting too it was not good for me, Yet I was looking for a way to heal myself and felt if I was going to heal I first had to understand the problem ... so I took breaks when I needed to but could not stop looking.  I still want to know... at some points I had to just stop reading any thread except those I  would search about specific issues I was having.  I sorry your caught here too...nobody should be.  I would like to keep talking about this topic and understand that you will not be here to part take please take good care of yourself.  

[btdt]

Aside from dissecting brains/bodies, it's pretty hard to prove anything.

There are theories out there, I guess we each can have our own opinion. The baboon brain thing is a pretty convincing piece of evidence though.

 I have read stories from Big Pharma whistle blowers, saying they were paid to go give speals to doctors at conferences about their drugs, and offer them big kickbacks, paid vacations, etc. for prescribing their drugs. These people giving this information were nothing more than trained by the drug companies on what to tell them. There have been doctors that have come forth and confessed that drug companies did pay them huge kickbacks for prescribing their drugs. 

I can personally attest to this, when an allergist I took my son to repeatedly insisted that he take Zyrtec, 24/7. He would not listen to a word I had to say, that he had tried it and it did not help him. He just kept insisting, and finally filled up a bag with samples of Zyrtec, and ended the visit.  He had a huge bowl of it like a bowl of candy! 

Drug companies do allot a certain amount of money to pay off those who sue for damage, and they consider it part of business. By the time anyone is damaged, they will have made millions, or more on their drug. The FDA does little to prove a drug is 'safe' anymore. A drug company only has to submit their OWN testing/trials, to the FDA, showing the drug had a better rate of success than a placebo, and that the drug was safer than a natural way of dealing with the problem. There is no independent clinical trials required anymore.

You can bet the companies know the damage drugs do, but it's all about money.

yes I am well aware of how the system works thanks to many authors who write the books nobody seems to read until they are damaged... Our Daily Meds was a good one ...one of many I have read.  They all run together after awhile.  Dr Grace E Jackson has a few books... One of the little blurbs has this to say about antidepressants...

"3) the limitations of the neurogenesis theory of antidepressant action (in fact, Dr. Jackson discusses the research evidence which shows that antidepressants damage the hippocampus - the learning and memory center of the brain)"

 

I have not read the book.  

Actually I will post the list as there are other drugs somebody may want info about. 

"Books

[2009] Drug-Induced Dementia: a perfect crime by MD Grace E. Jackson 

1) the causal connection between antipsychotic drugs and Alzheimer's disease 

2) the evidentiary link between stimulants (ADHD drugs) and shrinkage of the brain 

3) the limitations of the neurogenesis theory of antidepressant action (in fact, Dr. Jackson discusses the research evidence which shows that antidepressants damage the hippocampus - the learning and memory center of the brain) 

4) the evidence for mood stabilizers as neurodegenerative, rather than neuroprotective agents 

5) the reasons why existing drug treatments are particularly hazardous for survivors of traumatic brain injury (i.e., soldiers with head injuries)"

 

Dr. Jackson, a Board certified psychiatrist, is a 1996 graduate of the University of Colorado School of Medicine. She holds degrees in biology and political science, as well as a Master's degree in Public Administration. Dr. Jackson completed her psychiatric internship and residency in the U.S. Navy, with subsequent assignment to Bethesda Naval Hospital as a staff physician. Since transitioning out of the military in spring 2002, Dr. Jackson has lectured widely in Europe and the United States, speaking about "The Unintended Consequences of Developing Biotechnologies"; "The History and Philosophy of Attention Deficit Disorder"; "Drug-Induced Psychiatric Emergencies"; and "TheLimitations of Biological Psychiatry". She has spoken at international conferences featuring highly respected clinicians, such as Dr. David Healy (The Antidepressant Era and The Creation of Psychopharmacology) ; Dr. David Stein (Rital in Is Not The Answer) ; and Dr. Bertram Karon (Psychotherapy of Schizophrenia: The Treatment of Choice). Dr. Jackson is currently working as a Locum Tenens psychiatrist, based in North Carolina.

I wonder what Healy thinks of her? 

[btdt]

This from Whitaker if you still with me.

" According to Whitaker's analysis of the primary literature, lower levels of serotonin and higher levels of dopmine "have proved to be true in patients WITH prior exposure to antidepressants or antipsychotics (ie as homeostatic mechanisms) but NOT in patients without prior exposure."[7][8][9][10][1 1][12][13][14][15][16][17][18] [19][20][21][22][23]

So far there is no clear and convincing evidence that monoamine deficiency accounts for depression; that is, there is no 'real' monoamine deficit."

 

From here:

anatomy of an epidemic:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anatomy_of_an_Ep... 
Anatomy of an Epidemic
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Anatomy of an Epidemic
Author(s) Robert Whitaker
Original title Anatomy of an Epidemic: Magic Bullets, Psychiatric Drugs, and the Astonishing Rise of Mental Illness in America
Publisher Crown Publishing Group
Publication date April 2010
ISBN 978-0-307-45241-2
Dewey Decimal 616.89
Anatomy of an Epidemic: Magic Bullets, Psychiatric Drugs, and the Astonishing Rise of Mental Illness in America is a book by Robert Whitaker published in 2010 by Crown.[1][2][3] Whitaker asks why the number of Americans who receive government disability for mental illness approximately doubled since 1987.[4]
In the book, Whitaker tries to answer that question and examines the long-term outcomes for the mentally ill in the U.S. In April 2011, Investigative Reporters and Editors (IRE) announced that the book had won its award as the best investigative journalism book of 2010 stating, "this book provides an in-depth exploration of medical studies and science and intersperses compelling anecdotal examples. In the end, Whitaker punches holes in the conventional wisdom of treatment of mental illness with drugs."[5]
Contents [hide]
1 Synopsis
1.1 Magic bullets
1.2 Psychiatric drugs
1.3 Children
2 Review of data and statistics
3 Reception and media coverage
4 See also
5 References
6 Bibliography
7 External links
Synopsis[edit]
Magic bullets[edit]
Number of Americans who received SSDI and SSI for mental disability in 1987 (blue) when Eli Lilly and Company introduced the antidepressive drug Prozac, compared to 2003 (red).
Whitaker begins by showing that the antipsychotics, benzodiazepines and antidepressants were discovered as side effects during research for antihistamines (specifically promethazine), gram negative antibiotics (specifically mephenesin) and the anti-tuberculosis agents isoniazid and iproniazid respectively. The psychiatric mechanisms of action of these drugs were not known at the time and these were initially called major tranquilizers (now typical antipsychotics) due to their induction of "euphoric quietiude"; minor tranquilizers (now benzodiazepines) and psychic energizers (now antidepressants) due to patients "dancing in the wards."[6] These compounds were developed during a period of growth for the pharmaceutical industry bolstered by the 1951 Durham-Humphrey Amendment, giving physicians monopolistic prescribing rights thus aligning the interests of physicians and pharmaceutical companies. This also followed the industry's development of "magic bullets" that treat people with, for example, diabetes, which provided an analogy to sell the idea of these drugs to the public. It was not until many years later, after the mechanisms of these drugs were determined, that the serotonergic hypothesis of depression and dopaminergic hypothesis of schizophrenia were developed to fall in line with the drug's mechanisms. According to Whitaker's analysis of the primary literature, lower levels of serotonin and higher levels of dopmine "have proved to be true in patients WITH prior exposure to antidepressants or antipsychotics (ie as homeostatic mechanisms) but NOT in patients without prior exposure."[7][8][9][10][1 1][12][13][14][15][16][17][18] [19][20][21][22][23]
So far there is no clear and convincing evidence that monoamine deficiency accounts for depression; that is, there is no 'real' monoamine deficit.

 

— Stephen Stahl, Essential Psychopharmacology[24]

Another means by which he undermines the magic bullet theory is that he shows that the historical notion that the "invention of the antipsychotic Thorazine" having emptied the asylums is a myth.[25] His case begins by showing that during the late 1940s and 1950s ~75% of cases admitted for first episode schizophrenia recovered to the community by approximately 3 years (Thorazine was not released until 1955).[26][27][28] He then notes that the arrival of Thorazine did not improve discharge rates in the 1950s for people newly diagnosed with schizophrenia. In fact, based on the only large scale first episode schizophrenia study of this era, 88% of those who were not treated were discharged within eighteen months compared to 74% of neuroleptic treated.[29] This is additionally evidenced by the fact that when Thorazine was introduced in 1955 there were 267 thousand schizophrenia patients in state and county mental hospitals, and eight years later, there were 253 thousand, thus indicating that the advent of neuroleptics barely budged the number of hospitalized patients.[30] What he argues actually cleared the asylums was the beginning of Medicare and Medicaid in 1965. These programs provided federal subsidies for nursing home care but no such subsidy for care in state mental hospitals, and so the states, seeking to save money, began shipping their chronic patients to nursing homes.
Psychiatric drugs[edit]
Whitaker favors psychiatric medications but believes that they must be used in a "selective, cautious manner. It should be understood that they’re not fixing any chemical imbalances. And honestly, they should be used on a short-term basis."[31]
Whitaker traces the effects of what looks like an iatrogenic epidemic:[32] the drugs that patients receive can perturb their normal brain function.[33]
Whitaker suggests that the "wonder drug" glow around the second generation psychotropics has long since disappeared. He views the "hyping" of the top-selling atypical antipsychotics as "one of the more embarrassing episodes in psychiatry's history, as one government study after another failed to find that they were any better than the first-generation anti-psychotics."[34]
One of Whitaker's solutions is the style of care documented by professor Jaakko Seikkula at Keropudas Hospital in Tornio in Lapland where drugs are given to patients only on a limited basis, with good outcomes. According to Whitaker, the district has the lowest per capita spending on mental health of all health districts in Finland.[35] He also advocates that those with depression engage in exercise. Exercise for depression is so successful that in the UK the doctor may write a prescription for exercise. In fact, studies have shown that exercise produces a "substantial improvement" within six weeks, that its effect size is "large," and that 70% of all depressed patients respond to an exercise program. "These success rates are quite remarkable," German investigators wrote in 2008.[36][37][38]

 

Not to cut down on his sales but this is about all the book has to say this one read... There are stories of people who have recovered as much as they are going to ...improvement from their drugged days they did this by avoiding shrinks... leaving the system basically.  Anyone who has a  long protracted withdrawal has also left the system in many ways... lack of ability to work and depletion of finances is a big issue for me, that I know for sure. 

[Altoid]

Lot's of info you sent. I'll read it over and get back to you on it. I appreciate the info, and I have a friend in w/d from Effexor, who will probably like to read all this too. I will tell her to take a look.

Dawn <><

[Altoid]

This is a very interesting article about how good gut flora, AKA acidophiles, etc, had a huge positive impact on your brain, including GABA and Serotonin.

 

  http://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2013/06/20/gut-brain-connection.aspx?e_cid=20130620_DNL_ProdTest2_art_1&utm_source=dnl&utm_medium=email&utm_content=art1&utm_campaign=20130620ProdTest2

[btdt]

take it often but not all the time as I find it constipating... have other issues that makes constipation dangerous.... can't believe I am saying this now after such horrid opposite issues for years in withdrawal.

[Altoid]

I can top that! I lost my colon, completely, as the result of Paxil. 

And very sad to report, that during the months of ulcerative colitis, and yes, that IS a listed side effect of Paxil, ( I believe the more current prescribing paper that comes with a bottle of it has noq omitted it), of all the G.I. specialists I saw, they all thought I was bonkers for suggesting that Paxil, or withdrawal could have anything to do with it! How insane is that? !!!

 Odd that probiotics would cause you have have constipation though.

[btdt]

I have needed some surgery so maybe once I am healed from it I will not have the same issues.  I don't like putting anything in my mouth anymore that is not food.  Just where I am at in my life. 

[Altoid]

I don't like putting anything in my mouth anymore that is not food.  Just where I am at in my life. 

I agree!!!!