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Tolerance or "poop-out" or Tachyphylaxis


stan

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thanks, that does make sense..

 

treatment resistance was another thing that i used to get unreasonably scared from - it seems to me, since learning about w/d that maybe it is a case more of prolonged withdrawal

 

hopefully i won't keep bouncing around - and i certainly wont be trying other medications

Started in 2000 - On 150mg most of the time, (but up to 225mg at highest dose for 6 months in the beginning)
Reduced off easily first time - but got depressed (not too much anxiety) 6 months later
Back on effexor for another 9 months.
Reduced off again with no immediate w/d - suddenly got depressed and anxious ++ again 3 or 4 months later.
Back on effexor - this time for 3 years
Reduced off over a month - 6 weeks later terrible anxiety - back on.
Rinse and repeat 4 more times - each time the period before the anxiety comes back got shorter and shorter
Jan - July 2012 75mg down to 37.5mg;, 8/3/12 - 35mg. 8/25/12 - 32mg. 9/11- 28mg, 10/2 - 25mg, 10/29 - 22mg, 11/19 - 19.8mg; 12/11 - 17m,
1/1- 15.5mg; 1/22 -14mg, 2/7 14.9mg, 2/18 - 17.8mg - crashed big time: back to 75mg where i sat for 2 years....

4th  March 2015 - 67.5mg;   31st March - 60mg;  24th April - 53mg; 13th May - 48mg; 26th May - 45mg;  9th June - 41mg; 1 July- 37.5mg; 20 July - 34mg; 11 August - 31mg; 1st Sept - 28mg;  1st Dec - 25.8mg;  28th Dec - 23.2mg; 23rd Jan-21.9mg; Feb 7th- 21mg; March 1st - 20.1mg, March 30th - 18mg

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Thanks, Altostrata. I found very little about this psych doctor to engender confidence or faith. My dread at having to find another doctor who will not give me the same chemical imbalance routine is already making me anxious. Funny that when my gynecologist questions my menopause symptoms and tells me I need hormone replacement I'm able to demur and refuse his prescription. I know my symptoms aren't debilitating, like some women's are, and I know my body will find its balance.

 

But AD's? Holy cow. Even as I listen to him explain that my brain needs lifetime medication (of course, the insulin comparison) my inner voice says,"I can heal without this. I can deal with all of the stress of being human. My breakdown in 98 was because of months and months of pile-on that would have broken a 5 star general. Or a saint. Let alone an average, sort of worrier woman like me."

 

The elephant in the room, of course, was severe withdrawal I experienced by tapering off of 100 mgs zoloft in 6 weeks. The fear of another breakdown kept me on zoloft; the fear of severe discontinuation is keeping me on lexapro. Even though his dropping me from 20mgs to 15mgs gave me nothing but a bit of fatigue. Still I fear the next drop and am very afraid to do so unless and until a psychiatrist will say it's ok.

 

Sorry to ramble. You guys are the only people in my life I can talk about this to.

Zoloft 50--100mgs Oct 98 through Oct 06.

4 week taper with every WD symptom then crash.

Dec. 06 went on 20mgs lexapro

July 2012 15mg

August 10 mgs

Sept 5 mgs

Began using scale to taper

Oct. .18 mgs

Nov. .16 mgs

Dec. .15 mgs

Jan. .14 mgs

Feb. .13mgs

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Poop-out (tachyphylaxis) means the drug has stopped working. Since with antidepressants "working" means a lot of things, this is a little ambiguous.

 

I haven't heard of tolerance withdrawal much with antidepressants, although when I experienced Paxil poop-out I had spells of weepiness, which might have been withdrawal symptoms, I guess. Pre-Paxil, I was not weepy.

 

Thanks for this.. I've been scratching my head, virtually speaking. :lol:

As always, LISTEN TO YOUR BODY! A proud supporter of the 10% (or slower) rule.

 

Requip - 3/16 ZERO  Total time on 25 years.

 

Lyrica: 8/15 ZERO Total time on 7 or 8 yrs.

BENZO FREE 10/13 (started tapering 7/10)  Total time on 25 years.

 

Read my intro thread here, and check the about me section.  "No matter how cynical you get, it's almost impossible to keep up." Lily Tomlin

 

 

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But AD's? Holy cow. Even as I listen to him explain that my brain needs lifetime medication (of course, the insulin comparison) my inner voice says,"I can heal without this. I can deal with all of the stress of being human. My breakdown in 98 was because of months and months of pile-on that would have broken a 5 star general. Or a saint. Let alone an average, sort of worrier woman like me."

 

Do psychiatrists think we are born with low serotonin, or that stress depletes our brain of serotonin, or both? It baffles me that so-called professionals still perpetuate the "chemical imbalance" myth. I learnt it was a myth in my undergraduate neuropsychopharmacology class before I left...

2003-2011: Paroxetine,Citalopram,Effexor; Aug/Sept 2011: Effexor to Mirtazapine; Oct 2011: C/T Mirtazapine back to Effexor; Nov/Dec 2011: Fast Tapered Effexor - w/d hell; Feb 2012: Reinstated Effexor 37.5mg; June 2012: Dropped to 35.6mg; Jan 2016: Propranolol 2.5mg per day for general anxiety; Feb 2016: Finasteride 0.25mg per week to slow hair loss; 18th May - 8th June 2019: Started Vyvanse 7.5mg and increased by 7.5mg weekly to 30mg (lowest “therapeutic” dose for adults).; 21st June 2019 - 12th July: Cross tapered from venlafaxine brand Rodomel to Efexor (1/4 > 1/2 > 3/4 weekly before ditching Rodomel); 13th July 2019: Cut Vyvanse dose to 15mg; 15th July 2019: Akathisia returned after years of being free; 16th July 2019: Went back up to Vyvanse 30mg

Supplements: Omega-3, Vitamin D, Zinc, Phosphatidylserine 

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Do psychiatrists think we are born with low serotonin, or that stress depletes our brain of serotonin, or both? It baffles me that so-called professionals still perpetuate the "chemical imbalance" myth. I learnt it was a myth in my undergraduate neuropsychopharmacology class before I left...

 

I'm suspicious docs know the chemical balance bit is incorrect, but lacking any other reason, they parrot the one that 'works' (keeps people from questioning further).

As always, LISTEN TO YOUR BODY! A proud supporter of the 10% (or slower) rule.

 

Requip - 3/16 ZERO  Total time on 25 years.

 

Lyrica: 8/15 ZERO Total time on 7 or 8 yrs.

BENZO FREE 10/13 (started tapering 7/10)  Total time on 25 years.

 

Read my intro thread here, and check the about me section.  "No matter how cynical you get, it's almost impossible to keep up." Lily Tomlin

 

 

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Gladstone,if you find a psychiatrist who will work with you and not tell you fairy tales, please post in http://survivingantidepressants.org/index.php?/topic/988-recommended-doctors-therapists-or-clinics/ The closest doctors we have listed are in Atlanta.

This is not medical advice. Discuss any decisions about your medical care with a knowledgeable medical practitioner.

"It has become appallingly obvious that our technology has surpassed our humanity." -- Albert Einstein

All postings © copyrighted.

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I absolutely will. I'm trying to be optimistic; ironically I live in a university town with an entire academic and medical facility that studies nothing but the brain. Still it may be a wild goose chase. Hope, however, springs eternal.

Zoloft 50--100mgs Oct 98 through Oct 06.

4 week taper with every WD symptom then crash.

Dec. 06 went on 20mgs lexapro

July 2012 15mg

August 10 mgs

Sept 5 mgs

Began using scale to taper

Oct. .18 mgs

Nov. .16 mgs

Dec. .15 mgs

Jan. .14 mgs

Feb. .13mgs

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Perhaps that post can still be re-phrased to the effect that you believe that the idea that holding a dose causes tolerance withdrawal, to prevent others from being misled in the future? (If that's not possible, maybe an explanatory post on the other thread would prevent future misunderstandings on the part of those who might not see this thread.)

 

Hi Brandy.. a few months back we had an exhaustive discussion about tolerance withdrawal. Please refer to My link See what you think? I started out agreeing with your position but after an exhaustive discussion have come away with a different point of view. Getting my head around this after being helped by a major benzo forum for 2 years was very difficult for me, but I finally managed to hold my diazepam taper without fear, and benefited as a result.

 

 

Merged with our existing "poop-out" topic.

 

Yes, one can have withdrawal symptoms (or other symptoms) when an antidepressant or benzo reaches tolerance. This is "tolerance withdrawal."

 

This happened to me with Paxil. I got to tolerance and had weepy spells. Not really withdrawal symptoms, but symptoms the drug was not benefiting me.

 

(We don't believe applying the term "tolerance withdrawal" to withdrawal symptoms that emerge during a taper is correct -- those are withdrawal symptoms.)

 

I agree with Alto who is referring to symptoms that occur at the start of a taper. I was told tolerance withdrawal occurs when a person holds for a prolonged time (more than a month.. this referring to benzo use). The problem is that the risks of holding too long are far outweighed by the risks of tapering too quickly when a prolonged hold is needed, when the primary concern should be avoiding further damage done by neurosensitization. Cases wherein symptoms appear during holds are due to lag time catching up, which accumulates when cuts have been to fast further up the taper.

 

Schuyler, it's very important that I correct the error (either mine or from the software when cutting and pasting with the quotes) that occurred in my post.

 

I was not in any way expressing a position. I certainly wasn't telling you what to say.

 

If you read what I wrote again, I was trying to help you clarify what you were trying to say in terms that people whose experience with AD forums would understand. The main sentence I wrote doesn't even make sense structurally. Essential words were omitted.

 

This is an AD forum. For reasons I'll try to explain another time (too busy now) I think it's extremely important that Alto has started a benzo forum for people using both meds. That is badly needed.

 

But it seems possible that many benzo forums have given different definitions to terms that not only have been widely-used for a long time by AD forums, but in many cases have their origins in alcohol/opiate withdrawal, dating back to before any internet groups even existed.

 

As far as I know, most people in this group have not participated in benzo forums, and most or many are or were active in AD and non-benzo med groups. Others are new to withdrawal groups.

 

I've been thinking of posting for some time the possible need to establish common-ground vocabularies, and beyond that maybe to establish new ones that are less misunderstood by the medical profession and in many cases by patients.

 

But that is a different matter. This was just the fact that an essential phrase was omitted from my post.

 

Not the first time, and the fact that I haven't been catching these glitches at the time has me very concerned, so I think my resuming posting more in forums was premature. I'm not feeling well and hadn't wanted to mention it. I'm not as alert as I should be. Probably best to focus on finding what's wrong with me and best possible treatment for that.

 

But please know that I was only trying to help you phrase your (repeat, your) thoughts in ways that those of us who do not come from benzo forums will comprehend without dangerous confusion. It is not an accident that although I have read on benzo forums over the many years since I went off paxil, I've never joined any, until just recently joining one small group with a totally different approach to benzo withdrawal. To be honest, I've been horrified at what I feel to be (predominantly) didactic misinformation (or at best unsafe advice) I've seen on various benzo sites when I'd occasionally glance at them.

 

I had read the thread you linked to while it was active, and that confirmed my concerns about those groups.

 

I have had to so some cutting and pasting in this post. I don't see any glitches in it but I never do at the time. I hope there are no problems in it.

 

Basically, from what I've seen, in most groups "tolerance" and "tolerance withdrawal" are used interchangeably (with only a slight degree of difference, if that) with the colloquial "poop out" and refer to something that occurs unexpectedly while still taking the med - not tapering. I was just trying to ensure that people familiar with the original and common usage of the terms be validated that this is a real phenomenon and not to be discounted or dismissed. The medical profession recognizes tolerance/tolerance withdrawal, but are not likely to use the term "poop out." It's a very real and unfortunate phenomenon.

 

So I thought it might prevent frustrating and worse problems in communication here if you amended your post to clarify that the idea that holding at a dose causes tolerance withdrawal is a myth. Not tolerance withdrawal itself.

 

I'm just hoping so much that I didn't make more errors (glitches) in this post. I'm so weak and spacy I'm not catching those things til too late, and I have to type in increments much of the time due to severe carpal tunnel syndrome. Can't always feel the keys of the keyboard. When I'm a little more alert I'll reply to my thread in the benzo thread. I've been reading it and appreciate the replies. Other than that, I think my usefulness to these boards may be over, at least for the foreseeable future, and I'm sorry for any confusion I may have caused.

I was "TryingToGetWell" (aka TTGW) on paxilprogress. I also was one of the original members here on Surviving Antidepressants

 

I had horrific and protracted withdrawal from paxil, but now am back to enjoying life with enthusiasm to the max, some residual physical symptoms continued but largely improve. The horror, severe derealization, anhedonia, akathisia, and so much more, are long over.

 

My signature is a temporary scribble from year 2013. I'll rewrite it when I can.

 

If you want to read it, click on http://survivingantidepressants.org/index.php?/topic/209-brandy-anyone/?p=110343

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So I thought it might prevent frustrating and worse problems in communication here if you amended your post to clarify that the idea that holding at a dose causes tolerance withdrawal is a myth. Not tolerance withdrawal itself.

 

I'm just hoping so much that I didn't make more errors (glitches) in this post. I'm so weak and spacy I'm not catching those things til too late, and I have to type in increments much of the time due to severe carpal tunnel syndrome. Can't always feel the keys of the keyboard. When I'm a little more alert I'll reply to my thread in the benzo thread. I've been reading it and appreciate the replies. Other than that, I think my usefulness to these boards may be over, at least for the foreseeable future, and I'm sorry for any confusion I may have caused.

 

Withdrawal symptoms once one reaches tolerance ("tolerance withdrawal") are possible, particularly with benzos. (Our member Goldy had this, one symptom was epilepsy-like seizures.)

 

I haven't heard of tolerance withdrawal much with antidepressants, although when I experienced Paxil poop-out I had spells of weepiness, which might have been withdrawal symptoms, I guess. Pre-Paxil, I was not weepy.

Brandy I don't take offense. Discussing the topic is difficult because the terminology is so convoluted. I thought Alto did a good pick up and would hope to see any omission of mine corrected.

 

I'm sorry to hear you are feeling so poorly and hope to you feel improved soon.

As always, LISTEN TO YOUR BODY! A proud supporter of the 10% (or slower) rule.

 

Requip - 3/16 ZERO  Total time on 25 years.

 

Lyrica: 8/15 ZERO Total time on 7 or 8 yrs.

BENZO FREE 10/13 (started tapering 7/10)  Total time on 25 years.

 

Read my intro thread here, and check the about me section.  "No matter how cynical you get, it's almost impossible to keep up." Lily Tomlin

 

 

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  • 1 year later...

Right before I got off of Effexor, I was starting to have panic attacks.  Most of them was caused by my heart skipping, and the fear of that would seem to bring that on.   This only began a few months before I decided to get off of Effexor.  My question is, I know there's "poop out", but is there a tolerance withdrawal effect on antidepressants?  If  you take the same mgs of an AD for years, can your body adjust to this amount, and begin to experience withdrawals since I know panic attacks are very common withdrawal effects.  I did find out that the heart skips were from side effects of the Effexor.  While I was on them, it would happen when I would get aggravated, or physical exertion. After I went cold turkey and then went back on them, this side effect never happened again.

On Venlafaxine XR 75mg > 20 years, because a general MD decided to try these new "calming pills" taken from his sample closet because my pulse was a little high since I get nervous going to the doctor.

 

June 2010 - Cold turkey

September 2010 - Sudden onset of EXTREME anxiety, constant terror and fear that got marginally better at night.  I had no idea what or why this was; had no idea it was the quitting of Effexor. 

December 2010 - reinstated 75mgs Effexor XR, felt no better months later

January 2011 - Began 5% taper every month

2012 - Anxiety began improving by had many windows and waves

January 2014 - Fell back into sudden onset of same anxiety, fear as in 2010; realized I was tapering too quickly.  I was not allowing withdrawal effects to dissipate before another taper.  Began 2% taper every 6 to 8 months

2016 - Fear, anxiety began to wane

2017, 18 & 19 - Constant Fear & anxiety stopped, just occasional minor bouts that lasted 3 days or so

December 2020 - Now at ~31mgs Effexor XR, 5mgs Crestor 

November 2022 - Added 6% minoxidil and 0.3% finasteride topical. Used for a year. Got systemic side effects. Quit 11/19/2023. Also intermittently used 10 to 20mgs propanolol for adrenaline surges/pvcs. Stopped them also on 11/19/2023.

 
 
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John, please read this topic. Please use Search more before starting topics.

This is not medical advice. Discuss any decisions about your medical care with a knowledgeable medical practitioner.

"It has become appallingly obvious that our technology has surpassed our humanity." -- Albert Einstein

All postings © copyrighted.

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  • 4 weeks later...

Is there any difference? I have looked through threads and cannot come across many who have pooped-out on an antidepressant with severe withdrawel effects? Is it safer to maybe speed up tapering in pop-out considering the drug is no longer doing its job?

2008 - Doctors appointment with stress induced anxiety led to Citalopram prescription.

Severe adverse reaction

Mirtazapine prescribed - adverse reaction but told to stay on.

Poop out - December 2013

15mg

Currently on 13.5mg,

April 12mg

May 10th - 11mg

June 10th - 10mg

July 8th - 9mg

September - 0mg

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Hi Muddles, I wonder if you came across this thread? I put poop-out and tolerance into the search box. http://survivingantidepressants.org/index.php?/topic/437-tolerance-or-poop-out-what-happens/?hl=poop-out

As always, LISTEN TO YOUR BODY! A proud supporter of the 10% (or slower) rule.

 

Requip - 3/16 ZERO  Total time on 25 years.

 

Lyrica: 8/15 ZERO Total time on 7 or 8 yrs.

BENZO FREE 10/13 (started tapering 7/10)  Total time on 25 years.

 

Read my intro thread here, and check the about me section.  "No matter how cynical you get, it's almost impossible to keep up." Lily Tomlin

 

 

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  • 4 months later...

Because I have hit poop-out, does this mean it will take longer for my receptors to bounce back?

 

Will It take longer for me to get my emotions back - compared to those who have not hit poop-out?

2008 - Doctors appointment with stress induced anxiety led to Citalopram prescription.

Severe adverse reaction

Mirtazapine prescribed - adverse reaction but told to stay on.

Poop out - December 2013

15mg

Currently on 13.5mg,

April 12mg

May 10th - 11mg

June 10th - 10mg

July 8th - 9mg

September - 0mg

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Thanks Skyler.

2008 - Doctors appointment with stress induced anxiety led to Citalopram prescription.

Severe adverse reaction

Mirtazapine prescribed - adverse reaction but told to stay on.

Poop out - December 2013

15mg

Currently on 13.5mg,

April 12mg

May 10th - 11mg

June 10th - 10mg

July 8th - 9mg

September - 0mg

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Prolonged emotion numbness scares me.

2008 - Doctors appointment with stress induced anxiety led to Citalopram prescription.

Severe adverse reaction

Mirtazapine prescribed - adverse reaction but told to stay on.

Poop out - December 2013

15mg

Currently on 13.5mg,

April 12mg

May 10th - 11mg

June 10th - 10mg

July 8th - 9mg

September - 0mg

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merged similar topics

This is not medical advice. Discuss any decisions about your medical care with a knowledgeable medical practitioner.

"It has become appallingly obvious that our technology has surpassed our humanity." -- Albert Einstein

All postings © copyrighted.

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I wanted to start this topic as I believe i experienced tolerance while taking effexor and I have heard other say their drugs other ssri antidepressants had stopped working for them to.  Often after a long term use.  I think one dead give away in knowing your in tolerance is to have withdrawal symptoms while your still taking the med that is why I put the it in the title.  I have talked to others who had this.  It was however not exactly how I experienced tolerance.  This was not the reason I quit effexor either.  

 

I had other symptoms such as one foot dragging and my head dropping to my chest for no apparent reason.  It had to be something big to get me off effexor as i was sure it was my lifeline... which goes to show how messed up my thinking was while on effexor. Yes I had changed while on the drug extreme changes but this topic is about tolerance or pooped out.  I just happened to notice there was not a thread with this title and thought one was needed so we have a place to put issues specific to tolerance where new people experiencing it can come and find the gist of the situation. 

 

I am hoping people will add their experience and expertise. 

peace

WARNING THIS WILL BE LONG
Had a car accident in 85
Codeine was the pain med when I was release from hosp continuous use till 89
Given PROZAC by a specialist to help with nerve pain in my leg 89-90 not sure which year
Was not told a thing about it being a psych med thought it was a pain killer no info about psych side effects I went nuts had hallucinations. As I had a head injury and was diagnosed with a concussion in 85 I was sent to a head injury clinic in 1990 five years after the accident. I don't think they knew I had been on prozac I did not think it a big deal and never did finish the bottle of pills. I had tests of course lots of them. Was put into a pain clinic and given amitriptyline which stopped the withdrawal but had many side effects. But I could sleep something I had not done in a very long time the pain lessened. My mother got cancer in 94 they switched my meds to Zoloft to help deal with this pressure as I was her main care giver she died in 96. I stopped zoloft in 96 had withdrawal was put on paxil went nutty quit it ct put on resperidol quit it ct had withdrawal was put on Effexor... 2years later celexa was added 20mg then increased to 40mg huge personality change went wild. Did too fast taper off Celexa 05 as I felt unwell for a long time prior... quit Effexor 150mg ct 07 found ****** 8 months into withdrawal learned some things was banned from there in 08 have kept learning since. there is really not enough room here to put my history but I have a lot of opinions about a lot of things especially any of the drugs mentioned above.
One thing I would like to add here is this tidbit ALL OPIATES INCREASE SEROTONIN it is not a huge jump to being in chronic pain to being put on an ssri/snri and opiates will affect your antidepressants and your thinking.

As I do not update much I will put my quit date Nov. 17 2007 I quit Effexor cold turkey. 

http://survivingantidepressants.org/index.php?/topic/1096-introducing-myself-btdt/

There is a crack in everything ..That's how the light gets in :)

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Topics merged Btdt.

**I am not a medical professional, if in doubt please consult a doctor with withdrawal knowledge.

 

 

Different drugs occasionally (mostly benzos) 1976 - 1981 (no problem)

1993 - 2002 in and out of hospital. every type of drug + ECT. Staring with seroxat

2002  effexor. 

Tapered  March 2012 to March 2013, ending with 5 beads.

Withdrawal April 2013 . Reinstated 5 beads reduced to 4 beads May 2013

Restarted taper  Nov 2013  

OFF EFFEXOR Feb 2015    :D 

Tapered atenolol and omeprazole Dec 2013 - May 2014

 

Tapering tramadol, Feb 2015 100mg , March 2015 50mg  

 July 2017 30mg.  May 15 2018 25mg

Taking fish oil, magnesium, B12, folic acid, bilberry eyebright for eye pressure. 

 

My story http://survivingantidepressants.org/index.php?/topic/4199-hello-mammap-checking-in/page-33

 

Lesson learned, slow down taper at lower doses. Taper no more than 10% of CURRENT dose if possible

 

 

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  • 5 months later...

 

Sorry nor following this can someone explain the difference between tolerance & poop out please?

there is no difference, it is when the med do not more work,be in tolerance is live taken a med who do not work (only his side-effects)

 

and then the doc double dose or switch

 

In my case Effexor lost it's charm after 2 years ( 2002)  20mg of celexa was added... 2 years of that 150 efffexor and 40 mg celexa(2004) I had somehow had a med increase of 20mg and was not well at all... I quit taking celexa not sure why now... thought it was making me sick.  Had all sorts of health problems in 2004 before and after I quit celexa ct... ended up stopping all meds 2007... if I had been in pooped out from E since 2002

That would be a very sad thing... I know from about then on my behavior was bad and not conducive to a decent life or my real self as I had always known me to be previously.

I am not sure how to know what poop out is other than having withdrawal symptoms but I now wonder what was up with the head dropping and the foot dragging the neurologist immediately said get off effexor but he did not explain his reasoning or if he did I could not comprehend it... I recall taking in a recorder and asking him to speak into it as I said I could not recall conversations... he got all weird on me.. one would think a neurologist who deals with brains and memory issues would have come up against that idea before...

Once again I am done fatigue has beat me I will try to recall to get back to this one...peace all 

WARNING THIS WILL BE LONG
Had a car accident in 85
Codeine was the pain med when I was release from hosp continuous use till 89
Given PROZAC by a specialist to help with nerve pain in my leg 89-90 not sure which year
Was not told a thing about it being a psych med thought it was a pain killer no info about psych side effects I went nuts had hallucinations. As I had a head injury and was diagnosed with a concussion in 85 I was sent to a head injury clinic in 1990 five years after the accident. I don't think they knew I had been on prozac I did not think it a big deal and never did finish the bottle of pills. I had tests of course lots of them. Was put into a pain clinic and given amitriptyline which stopped the withdrawal but had many side effects. But I could sleep something I had not done in a very long time the pain lessened. My mother got cancer in 94 they switched my meds to Zoloft to help deal with this pressure as I was her main care giver she died in 96. I stopped zoloft in 96 had withdrawal was put on paxil went nutty quit it ct put on resperidol quit it ct had withdrawal was put on Effexor... 2years later celexa was added 20mg then increased to 40mg huge personality change went wild. Did too fast taper off Celexa 05 as I felt unwell for a long time prior... quit Effexor 150mg ct 07 found ****** 8 months into withdrawal learned some things was banned from there in 08 have kept learning since. there is really not enough room here to put my history but I have a lot of opinions about a lot of things especially any of the drugs mentioned above.
One thing I would like to add here is this tidbit ALL OPIATES INCREASE SEROTONIN it is not a huge jump to being in chronic pain to being put on an ssri/snri and opiates will affect your antidepressants and your thinking.

As I do not update much I will put my quit date Nov. 17 2007 I quit Effexor cold turkey. 

http://survivingantidepressants.org/index.php?/topic/1096-introducing-myself-btdt/

There is a crack in everything ..That's how the light gets in :)

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  • 7 months later...

Anyone still interested in this topic?

 

I am currently thinking I have reached poop out. I have been taking my AD for 12 years and a while back I started getting quite ill after taking my dose. About an hour after id get slammed with horrid symptoms. This happens after each dose day after day.

 

I have decided its time to get off. Is it best to do a slow taper or can I speed it up as the drugs are making me ill as it is?

 

My body is telling me I'm being poisoned, "get the hell off".

 

 

Anyone?

 

 

I have been bed riden off and on for ages, I would appreciate any feedback.

 

My doctors are useless, I refuse to updose. My doc is famous for trying to take over taper times by cutting dose on my prescriptions. This means I'm on my own with this one.

 

 

Cheers,

 

 

Fonz

Took 5mg Lexapro (Cipralex) for 14 years.

Did 8 Month taper, jumped off December 2017.

 

Took Clonazepam for 10 years. Went through Benzodiazepine Protracted withdrawal. I am five years out but still not fully recovered. I was bedridden for the first two years.

 

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I'd been on various SSRIs over 5 years, and it took me a while to spot what was happening:  Effexor was causing me problems - dizziness, fatigue, anxiety, constipation, headaches, wriggly feet at night, horrid nightmares, intense sadness and hopelessness, hot ears, sensitivity to noise, insomnia.  Things got so weird I started keeping a daily chart, so now I can look back and trace patterns. 

 

I'd say that was tolerance, and it was what made me want to begin tapering. 

 

I read in Anatomy of and Epidemic that people will sometimes have a window of between 6 months and 2 years where the SSRI provides some relief, and then, basically, your time is up.  Looking back that was certainly the case for me, and I should have got the hell off after the first SSRI I was on started to poop-out.  Instead of all this up-dose, down-dose, swap SSRIs, hasty-taper nonsense with the doctor. 

 

Other here who know more than me will better advise you about how to taper.  In my own (limited) experience, I reckon go slow - your body is already in upheaval.  Over time you can adjust to a quicker pace if you discover you can handle it. 

 

I started with a 10% taper, from an un-stable, poop-out place, and it was too much for me.  Currently trying a 1% taper.  Check out the turtle taperers!  Slow and steady wins the race!!

 

Karen

2010  Fluoxetine 20mg.  2011  Escitalopram 20mg.  2013 Tapered badly and destabilised CNS.  Effexor 150mg. 

2015 Begin using info at SurvivingAntidepressants.  Cut 10% - bad w/d 2 months, held 1 month. 

Micro-tapering: four weekly 0.4% cuts, hold 4 weeks (struggling with symptoms).

8 month hold.

2017 Micro-tapering: four weekly 1% cuts, hold 4 weeks (symptoms almost non-existent).

2020 Still micro-tapering. Just over 2/3 of the way off effexor. Minimal symptoms, - and sleeping well.
Supplements: Fish oil, vitamin C, iron, oat-straw tea, nettle tea.

2023 Now on 7 micro-beads of Effexor. Minimal symptoms but much more time needed between drops.

 'The possibility of renewal exists so long as life exists.'  Dr Gabor Mate.

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Thanks for sharing.. I can see 10% being maybe high for some of us, I'm debating trying a 5%. I'm so ill just taking the drug I don't have much to lose.

 

I hope others chime in.

 

 

 

Fonz

Took 5mg Lexapro (Cipralex) for 14 years.

Did 8 Month taper, jumped off December 2017.

 

Took Clonazepam for 10 years. Went through Benzodiazepine Protracted withdrawal. I am five years out but still not fully recovered. I was bedridden for the first two years.

 

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Fonz, I was thinking you could ask about this in the Slowness of Slow Tapers topic, as those with the experience around this will be following that particular topic.  Also, I gained a lot of clarity when I read right through it (and it's pages long).

 

You'll get there,

Karen

2010  Fluoxetine 20mg.  2011  Escitalopram 20mg.  2013 Tapered badly and destabilised CNS.  Effexor 150mg. 

2015 Begin using info at SurvivingAntidepressants.  Cut 10% - bad w/d 2 months, held 1 month. 

Micro-tapering: four weekly 0.4% cuts, hold 4 weeks (struggling with symptoms).

8 month hold.

2017 Micro-tapering: four weekly 1% cuts, hold 4 weeks (symptoms almost non-existent).

2020 Still micro-tapering. Just over 2/3 of the way off effexor. Minimal symptoms, - and sleeping well.
Supplements: Fish oil, vitamin C, iron, oat-straw tea, nettle tea.

2023 Now on 7 micro-beads of Effexor. Minimal symptoms but much more time needed between drops.

 'The possibility of renewal exists so long as life exists.'  Dr Gabor Mate.

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Thanks, I will go check that out!

 

 

Fonz

Took 5mg Lexapro (Cipralex) for 14 years.

Did 8 Month taper, jumped off December 2017.

 

Took Clonazepam for 10 years. Went through Benzodiazepine Protracted withdrawal. I am five years out but still not fully recovered. I was bedridden for the first two years.

 

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  • 3 months later...

Hey everyone, I was looking for some input on antidepressant tolerance or more commonly referred to as antidepressant “poop out”.  Can this happen while attempting to stabilize on a dose while tapering?

2001: Started Antidepressants at age 15.

2001-2010: Put on and taken off numerous Antidepressants when they stopped working.

2010: Sertraline 100mg

2012: Sertraline 150mg

2014: Sertraline 200mg

May 2015: Started Tapering off Sertraline, 25% Reduction to 150mg.

June 2015: Continue at 150mg due to withdrawal, no reduction this month.

July 2015: Psychiatrist told me to do alternating day doses of 150mg and 200mg.

     Tried one week with horrible results and went back to 150mg.

Mid-July 2015: I decided the alternate doses and 150mg were not working so I used a pill cutter for an even 175mg

August 2015: Psychiatrist told me to stay on 175mg for another month.

September 2015: Back to 150mg and tried new doctor. She told me to try Sam-e, taking 200mg daily. 

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Hi Macha-- It can happen but it's not very common.  Poopout tends to happen when you've been on a dose for a long time and the body gets use to having that amount in it and starts to work around it.  The symptoms of poopout will grow on you gradually  over a period of months and not start up suddenly over a few days.

 

Did you start taking the Sam-e that the doctor recommended.  That could be the source of the problems. Sam-e does not play well with ADs and APs and shouldn't be used while tapering.

20 years on Paxil starting at 20mg and working up to 40mg. Sept 2011 started 10% every 6 weeks taper (2.5% every week for 4 weeks then hold for 2 additional weeks), currently at 7.9mg. Oct 2011 CTed 15oz vodka a night, to only drinking 2 beers most nights, totally sober Feb 2013.

Since I wrote this I have continued to decrease my dose by 10% every 6 weeks (2.5% every week for 4 weeks and then hold for an additional 2 weeks). I added in an extra 6 week hold when I hit 10mg to let things settle out even more. When I hit 3mgpw it became hard to split the drop into 4 parts so I switched to dropping 1mgpw (pill weight) every week for 3 weeks and then holding for another 3 weeks.  The 3 + 3 schedule turned out to be too harsh so I cut back to dropping 1mgpw every 4 weeks which is working better.

Final Dose 0.016mg.     Current dose 0.000mg 04-15-2017

 

"It's also important not to become angry, no matter how difficult life is, because you can loose all hope if you can't laugh at yourself and at life in general."  Stephen Hawking

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I took the Sam-e for a while and it didn’t help, possibly made worse. The last three months I have been on the same 150mg dose of Sertraline and Rhodeola. It has been helping and I thought I was stabilized finally at the beginning of last month, now with no change in meds I seem to be having issues again. Maybe I had a long window or something? I wasn’t sure if “poop out” could happen in three months.

2001: Started Antidepressants at age 15.

2001-2010: Put on and taken off numerous Antidepressants when they stopped working.

2010: Sertraline 100mg

2012: Sertraline 150mg

2014: Sertraline 200mg

May 2015: Started Tapering off Sertraline, 25% Reduction to 150mg.

June 2015: Continue at 150mg due to withdrawal, no reduction this month.

July 2015: Psychiatrist told me to do alternating day doses of 150mg and 200mg.

     Tried one week with horrible results and went back to 150mg.

Mid-July 2015: I decided the alternate doses and 150mg were not working so I used a pill cutter for an even 175mg

August 2015: Psychiatrist told me to stay on 175mg for another month.

September 2015: Back to 150mg and tried new doctor. She told me to try Sam-e, taking 200mg daily. 

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This is sounding more like a bad wave brought on by all the dose changes over the summer.  Given a bit more time it should settle down.

20 years on Paxil starting at 20mg and working up to 40mg. Sept 2011 started 10% every 6 weeks taper (2.5% every week for 4 weeks then hold for 2 additional weeks), currently at 7.9mg. Oct 2011 CTed 15oz vodka a night, to only drinking 2 beers most nights, totally sober Feb 2013.

Since I wrote this I have continued to decrease my dose by 10% every 6 weeks (2.5% every week for 4 weeks and then hold for an additional 2 weeks). I added in an extra 6 week hold when I hit 10mg to let things settle out even more. When I hit 3mgpw it became hard to split the drop into 4 parts so I switched to dropping 1mgpw (pill weight) every week for 3 weeks and then holding for another 3 weeks.  The 3 + 3 schedule turned out to be too harsh so I cut back to dropping 1mgpw every 4 weeks which is working better.

Final Dose 0.016mg.     Current dose 0.000mg 04-15-2017

 

"It's also important not to become angry, no matter how difficult life is, because you can loose all hope if you can't laugh at yourself and at life in general."  Stephen Hawking

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  • 4 weeks later...
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Wanting to understand the process of tolerance withdrawal...

 

Someone was on Effexor 75 mg for several years, and tapered off over a year, though probably making relatively large cuts rather than 10%..."Relapsed" 6 months later and went back on 75 mg.  Has been at that dose for four plus months and has been having windows and waves, a good week or two followed by a bad week or two.

 

I'm thinking he has reached tolerance at 75 mg but is it possible to have windows and waves in tolerance?  Is that pretty normal?  And what is happening there?  The dosage is not reduced or removed so what do the windows and waves represent?  I thought W&W represented healing, but how can healing take place when the drug level remains the same?

 

So, the options are to 1) increase with the risk being adverse symptoms, but if it helps then likely tolerance will be reached again or 2) start reducing with a 10% taper, with the hope that WD symptoms would be relieved by reducing.  

 

Is there a proposed mechanism by which tapering relieves tolerance withdrawal symptoms?

 

Just wanting to understand...

SG

Started ADs back around 1995 after bad break-up, starting with Prozac.  Switched to Wellbutrin, and then to Effexor in 2002
Effexor XR 2002-2014 up to 225 mg at one point, down to 37.5 mg towards end but back up to 75 mg in 2014; now realize I had W/D as I dropped down, memory very poor about history.  Extreme emotions, poor concentration as I stepped back down, didn't connect the dots!
Summer 2014 reduced to 0 very quickly, was sick of anhedonia/sexual dysfunction due to meds, depression never controlled if not worse. Didn't recognize WD since symptoms built slowly (thought I had ADD! and menopausal on top of it), starting with severe sweats, very bad cog-fog and memory issues, culminating in weight loss, severe anxiety and depression, panic, severe apathy and insomnia by eight months off.  Saw p-doc who put me on Remeron, increased from 7.5 mg/day to 37.5 mg by May 22, 2015; still doing very badly though able to sleep.

June 1. 2015 Reinstated Effexor XR 37.5 mg, Remeron dropped to 30 mg PM. Immediate relief of symptoms, like nothing had ever happened!  Joined SA and began on advice of friend who recognized it was WD all along! Began tapering in July 2015.

Been tapering both meds ever since, focusing on one more than the other or doing no more than 5% of each per month.

12 mg Effexor and 5.8 mg Remeron (mirtazapine SolTabs to make a solution with OraPlus) as of 5/4/2017 

Update 3/14/18: 2.9 mg Remeron and 6 mg Effexor; 6/10/18:  2.6 mg Remeron and 4.9 mg Effexor

 

My intro: http://survivingantidepressants.org/index.php?/topic/9313-squirrellygirl-effexor-withdrawal-etc/page-2#entry196679

This is not medical advice. Discuss any decisions about your medical care with a knowledgeable medical practitioner.

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Sorry for your suffering. I do see you jumping back and forth in your psych med history!

 

I had doctors do subtle switchovers, withdrawals and I suffered. The suffering seems to compound, meaning, first hop, some temporary trouble, second hop, little more, third hop, brain changes, etc...

 

I actually developed chronic anxiety and depression because of compounded hopping.

 

Well, I'd advise to get to something that works, reasonable doses please, and do safe taper.

 

Remember that there is payoff time and if gor example you decide to do 40mg of viibryd (a drug I'm on), you'll need to 10% or whatever works off 40mg making the journey harder and longer.

 

Good luck. Peace ad love.

Latest med schedule and withdrawal (05/17/17):

Seroquel On 125mg 10/28/16 (now, 125 mg), (9/2017, 200mg)

Cymbalta On 27mg 10/28/16 (now, 27 mg), (9/2017, 90mg)

Viibryd On 10mg 10/28/16 (now, 10 mg), (9/2017, 20mg)

Klonopin On 2.5 Start 10/28/16 (now 1.5 night, 1 Morning), (9/2017 1.5 night, 1 morning, .5 midday, total 3mg)

Diovan 160mg On 10/28/16 (now 160mg)

Norvasc On 10mg 10/28/16 (now 0), (1/2017 10mg)

Cytomel (T3 for thyroid) on 11/2017 25mcg

 

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Sorry for your suffering. I do see you jumping back and forth in your psych med history!

 

I had doctors do subtle switchovers, withdrawals and I suffered. The suffering seems to compound, meaning, first hop, some temporary trouble, second hop, little more, third hop, brain changes, etc...

 

I actually developed chronic anxiety and depression because of compounded hopping.

 

Hi ccb73, 

I'm sorry you developed chronic anxiety and depression because of all of this.  I wasn't referencing myself above, someone else's case that i am trying to understand.  

 

I've had my own hoppy history, though.   Went from Prozac to Wellbutrin to Effexor. 12 years on Effexor during which I went probably to 225, and then dropped back down by pill sizes (37.5 mg at a time, maybe even 75, don't remember!) culminating in coming off too quickly over a year ago.  10 months of protracted withdrawal before reinstating 37.5 mg.  I'm doing a micro taper on Effexor, and I mean MICRO since I am also tapering off of mirtazapine primarily.  I am down to 27.5 mg Effexor and feeling more stable than I probably ever was on any higher dose!

 

For this person, his dilemma was what to do, and what was going on with the periods of feeling good and bad.  I'm just trying to uderstand it so I can advise him better.  It sounded like windows and waves, but I'd never heard of that during tolerance.

 

Of course, if I were him, I'd do the 10% or less taper and work towards getting off, rather than updose in hopes of overcoming tolerance. But it is each person's decision to make, hopefully informed.

 

 

 

I see that you are on quite the cocktail, and I am so sorry you ended up with that situation, an all too common one.  Before my crash, I spent a lot of time on the boards at PsychCentral, and I was blown away by how many people on the depression board were polydrugged similarly.  It occurred to me, if you are on so many drugs, why are you still so depressed?  What's up with that?  Now I know!

 

SG

Started ADs back around 1995 after bad break-up, starting with Prozac.  Switched to Wellbutrin, and then to Effexor in 2002
Effexor XR 2002-2014 up to 225 mg at one point, down to 37.5 mg towards end but back up to 75 mg in 2014; now realize I had W/D as I dropped down, memory very poor about history.  Extreme emotions, poor concentration as I stepped back down, didn't connect the dots!
Summer 2014 reduced to 0 very quickly, was sick of anhedonia/sexual dysfunction due to meds, depression never controlled if not worse. Didn't recognize WD since symptoms built slowly (thought I had ADD! and menopausal on top of it), starting with severe sweats, very bad cog-fog and memory issues, culminating in weight loss, severe anxiety and depression, panic, severe apathy and insomnia by eight months off.  Saw p-doc who put me on Remeron, increased from 7.5 mg/day to 37.5 mg by May 22, 2015; still doing very badly though able to sleep.

June 1. 2015 Reinstated Effexor XR 37.5 mg, Remeron dropped to 30 mg PM. Immediate relief of symptoms, like nothing had ever happened!  Joined SA and began on advice of friend who recognized it was WD all along! Began tapering in July 2015.

Been tapering both meds ever since, focusing on one more than the other or doing no more than 5% of each per month.

12 mg Effexor and 5.8 mg Remeron (mirtazapine SolTabs to make a solution with OraPlus) as of 5/4/2017 

Update 3/14/18: 2.9 mg Remeron and 6 mg Effexor; 6/10/18:  2.6 mg Remeron and 4.9 mg Effexor

 

My intro: http://survivingantidepressants.org/index.php?/topic/9313-squirrellygirl-effexor-withdrawal-etc/page-2#entry196679

This is not medical advice. Discuss any decisions about your medical care with a knowledgeable medical practitioner.

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Point well said.

 

I am actually withdrawing too with mood swings and a variety of complaints.

 

I also confer with top professionals and the concensus seems to be "We don't have the foggiest idea how withdrawal effects a person and there are no experts".

 

Suffices for now... For further discussion.

Latest med schedule and withdrawal (05/17/17):

Seroquel On 125mg 10/28/16 (now, 125 mg), (9/2017, 200mg)

Cymbalta On 27mg 10/28/16 (now, 27 mg), (9/2017, 90mg)

Viibryd On 10mg 10/28/16 (now, 10 mg), (9/2017, 20mg)

Klonopin On 2.5 Start 10/28/16 (now 1.5 night, 1 Morning), (9/2017 1.5 night, 1 morning, .5 midday, total 3mg)

Diovan 160mg On 10/28/16 (now 160mg)

Norvasc On 10mg 10/28/16 (now 0), (1/2017 10mg)

Cytomel (T3 for thyroid) on 11/2017 25mcg

 

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I also confer with top professionals and the concensus seems to be "We don't have the foggiest idea how withdrawal effects a person and there are no experts".

 

 

Ah - they haven't heard of Alto....

2010  Fluoxetine 20mg.  2011  Escitalopram 20mg.  2013 Tapered badly and destabilised CNS.  Effexor 150mg. 

2015 Begin using info at SurvivingAntidepressants.  Cut 10% - bad w/d 2 months, held 1 month. 

Micro-tapering: four weekly 0.4% cuts, hold 4 weeks (struggling with symptoms).

8 month hold.

2017 Micro-tapering: four weekly 1% cuts, hold 4 weeks (symptoms almost non-existent).

2020 Still micro-tapering. Just over 2/3 of the way off effexor. Minimal symptoms, - and sleeping well.
Supplements: Fish oil, vitamin C, iron, oat-straw tea, nettle tea.

2023 Now on 7 micro-beads of Effexor. Minimal symptoms but much more time needed between drops.

 'The possibility of renewal exists so long as life exists.'  Dr Gabor Mate.

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Wanting to understand the process of tolerance withdrawal...

 

 

'Tolerance Withdrawal' is a term usually connected with benzo use. But there is some argument about what it actually is and if it really exists. There's a topic in our benzo section here: Benzo "tolerance withdrawal" during tapering -- does it exist?

I'm not a doctor.  My comments are not medical advise. These are my opinions based on my own experience and what I've learned. Please discuss your situation with a medical practitioner who has knowledge of tapering and withdrawal...if you are lucky enough to find one.

My Introduction Thread

Full Drug and Withdrawal History

Brief Summary

Several SSRIs for 13 years starting 1997 (for mild to moderate partly situational anxiety) Xanax PRN ~ Various other drugs over the years for side effects

2 month 'taper' off Lexapro 2010

Short acute withdrawal, followed by 2 -3 months of improvement then delayed protracted withdrawal

DX ADHD followed by several years of stimulants and other drugs trying to manage increasing symptoms

Failed reinstatement of Lexapro and trial of Prozac (became suicidal)

May 2013 Found SA, learned about withdrawal, stopped taking drugs...healing begins.

Protracted withdrawal, with a very sensitized nervous system, slowly recovering as time passes

Supplements which have helped: Vitamin C, Magnesium, Taurine

Bad reactions: Many supplements but mostly fish oil and Vitamin D

June 2016 - Started daily juicing, mostly vegetables and lots of greens.

Aug 2016 - Oct 2016 Best window ever, felt almost completely recovered

Oct 2016 -Symptoms returned - bad days and less bad days.

April 2018 - No windows, but significant improvement, it feels like permanent full recovery is close.

VIDEO: Where did the chemical imbalance theory come from?



VIDEO: How are psychiatric diagnoses made?



VIDEO: Why do psychiatric drugs have withdrawal syndromes?



VIDEO: Can psychiatric drugs cause long-lasting negative effects?

VIDEO: Dr. Claire Weekes

 

 

 

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So what do we call it then, when a person takes a particular dosage of an AD for some time and it helps, but then they seemingly "relapse" despite the drug and so the dosage is increased?  What causes that phenomenon?  I see it referenced all the time for people on these drugs for anxiety and depression, with those symptoms popping up again, leading to an increase.  "Poop out?"  If "poop out" isn't tolerance withdrawal, then what is it?

 

Reading Anatomy of an Epidemic, we know that the nervous system pushes back against the action of the drug by up- regulating receptors among other things, so trying to wrap my brain around what is happening when the drug seems to stop working?  Is it just that they really don't work to begin with, because the problem isn't caused by low serotonin?

 

I can be a real pain in the #$%@  LOL!

 

SG

Started ADs back around 1995 after bad break-up, starting with Prozac.  Switched to Wellbutrin, and then to Effexor in 2002
Effexor XR 2002-2014 up to 225 mg at one point, down to 37.5 mg towards end but back up to 75 mg in 2014; now realize I had W/D as I dropped down, memory very poor about history.  Extreme emotions, poor concentration as I stepped back down, didn't connect the dots!
Summer 2014 reduced to 0 very quickly, was sick of anhedonia/sexual dysfunction due to meds, depression never controlled if not worse. Didn't recognize WD since symptoms built slowly (thought I had ADD! and menopausal on top of it), starting with severe sweats, very bad cog-fog and memory issues, culminating in weight loss, severe anxiety and depression, panic, severe apathy and insomnia by eight months off.  Saw p-doc who put me on Remeron, increased from 7.5 mg/day to 37.5 mg by May 22, 2015; still doing very badly though able to sleep.

June 1. 2015 Reinstated Effexor XR 37.5 mg, Remeron dropped to 30 mg PM. Immediate relief of symptoms, like nothing had ever happened!  Joined SA and began on advice of friend who recognized it was WD all along! Began tapering in July 2015.

Been tapering both meds ever since, focusing on one more than the other or doing no more than 5% of each per month.

12 mg Effexor and 5.8 mg Remeron (mirtazapine SolTabs to make a solution with OraPlus) as of 5/4/2017 

Update 3/14/18: 2.9 mg Remeron and 6 mg Effexor; 6/10/18:  2.6 mg Remeron and 4.9 mg Effexor

 

My intro: http://survivingantidepressants.org/index.php?/topic/9313-squirrellygirl-effexor-withdrawal-etc/page-2#entry196679

This is not medical advice. Discuss any decisions about your medical care with a knowledgeable medical practitioner.

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