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Goldensun - my Avanza withdrawal nightmare


goldensun

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Still experiencing the worst akathisia. Have not slept in days and physically can't stop moving at night. Very distressing.  Is decreasing the Avanza the right way to go as everything I have read says that if the akathisia is caused by medication then the best thing is to stop it or reduce it. Havenot tried to go below 21.9 which is where I was last stable. I am too scared that this might push me over the edge. Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

Started Avanza for post natal depression in 2002
Sept 2011 withdrew over a 3 month period
January 2012 crashed badly and had to reinstate at 30m
June 2012 to Dec 2012 made several unsuccessful attempts to withdraw
February 2013 have been reducing on liquid avanza by 0.5 mg a week or fortnightly
Currently at 23.5mg
29/07/13 - 22mg, whoo hoo - 1/4 of the way there
10/08/13 - 21mg
01/11/13 - 21.9mg

Have had around 12-14 Ambien since start of December 2012

Have been taking Propranolol since 6 December 2012 6 tablets a day

Had 1 dose of Seroquel 1 January 2013

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Just another quick question, sorry to be painful, but when I have increased my dose to 22.2mg my other withdrawal symptoms seem to improve but the akathisia does not. Should I use my other withdrawal symptoms as a guide to increasing or decreasing, or should I see what the akathisia does

Started Avanza for post natal depression in 2002
Sept 2011 withdrew over a 3 month period
January 2012 crashed badly and had to reinstate at 30m
June 2012 to Dec 2012 made several unsuccessful attempts to withdraw
February 2013 have been reducing on liquid avanza by 0.5 mg a week or fortnightly
Currently at 23.5mg
29/07/13 - 22mg, whoo hoo - 1/4 of the way there
10/08/13 - 21mg
01/11/13 - 21.9mg

Have had around 12-14 Ambien since start of December 2012

Have been taking Propranolol since 6 December 2012 6 tablets a day

Had 1 dose of Seroquel 1 January 2013

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  • Moderator Emeritus

I'm sorry you still haven't found any relief Goldensun,  if I were you, I would try gradually reducing:

 

I don't believe you can go back to a place where you were stable before, you need to find a new level. I don't know at what level you might find relief from the akathisia. I might keep decreasing slightly every few days, maybe by 0.1mg, until the akathisia abates.

 

I hope you start to feel better soon.

I'm not a doctor.  My comments are not medical advise. These are my opinions based on my own experience and what I've learned. Please discuss your situation with a medical practitioner who has knowledge of tapering and withdrawal...if you are lucky enough to find one.

My Introduction Thread

Full Drug and Withdrawal History

Brief Summary

Several SSRIs for 13 years starting 1997 (for mild to moderate partly situational anxiety) Xanax PRN ~ Various other drugs over the years for side effects

2 month 'taper' off Lexapro 2010

Short acute withdrawal, followed by 2 -3 months of improvement then delayed protracted withdrawal

DX ADHD followed by several years of stimulants and other drugs trying to manage increasing symptoms

Failed reinstatement of Lexapro and trial of Prozac (became suicidal)

May 2013 Found SA, learned about withdrawal, stopped taking drugs...healing begins.

Protracted withdrawal, with a very sensitized nervous system, slowly recovering as time passes

Supplements which have helped: Vitamin C, Magnesium, Taurine

Bad reactions: Many supplements but mostly fish oil and Vitamin D

June 2016 - Started daily juicing, mostly vegetables and lots of greens.

Aug 2016 - Oct 2016 Best window ever, felt almost completely recovered

Oct 2016 -Symptoms returned - bad days and less bad days.

April 2018 - No windows, but significant improvement, it feels like permanent full recovery is close.

VIDEO: Where did the chemical imbalance theory come from?



VIDEO: How are psychiatric diagnoses made?



VIDEO: Why do psychiatric drugs have withdrawal syndromes?



VIDEO: Can psychiatric drugs cause long-lasting negative effects?

VIDEO: Dr. Claire Weekes

 

 

 

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Hi Goldensun,

 

Insomnia due to Avanza/Mirtazapine withdrawal is very tricky. I feel for you!

 

Things to know about this drug:

- For a female the halflife is 40 hours. Due to this the concentration in your body of this drug is dependent on doses approximately 7 days back. This means that changes in dosage take 7 days to become stable in your blood stream. Changing around dosages on a daily basis therefore does not have a simple relationship to sleep and other withdrawal symptoms.

- For me and some others, there is a peak in insomnia approximately 3 weeks after a dose reduction. This makes it hard to evaluate how dose changes effects sleep.

- Other adverse reactions to this drug might have quicker response times and some might go away when you reach a lower dose. For me most of all nausea and all the vomiting went away when i reached 15 mg. So hang in there! Things will get better!

 

Insomnia also depends upon how well you slept the day/days before. Possibly more than a daily dosage change. So give a dosage change a few days at least before evaluating.

 

Sticking to your plan on slow tapering is my suggestion. Hold if insomnia hits bad. Work with all the non drug tools at your disposal as much as possible. Relaxation tapes, eating well, meditation, gentle exercise in the morning if your able, slow walks etc. They help me get 1-2 extra hours of sleep.

2010: Mirtazapine 30mg followed by Zopiclone 7.5 mg for sleep post surgery due to pain.
2012-> Tapering Mirtazapine and Zopiclone at different rates unsuccessfully.
2013: Hospitalized 10 days due to complete Insomnia. Forced back up to 45mg Mirtazapine, 7.5 mg Zopiclone and also Theralene 1 ml.
2013-03: Lab showed Vitamin D deficient. Found the vitamin d and insomnia connection. Supplementing vitamin d. Sleep improved by 1-2 hours
2013-04: Dropped mirtazapine to 30 due to severe side effects. Quit Theralene. Zopiclone 7.5.
2013-05 - 2013-11: Mirtazapine taper monthly 25 20 15 11 8 4 2.5 mg
2013-12 Holding M at 2.5. Need to taper Zopiclone due to daytime nausea and vomiting. Taper zopiclone 1/4 red every 5 d. Last Z 2013-12-19
2013-12-31 M:2.5. Reinstated Zopiclone 3.75 due to Insomnia
2014-01-06 M:2.5. Taper Z 1.9 ... 2014-01-14 M:2.5. Z 1 mg.
Jumped of Zopiclone 01-20. Jumped mirtazapine 02-16.

Theralene: 10mg 02-09. 8mg 03-09. 5mg 03-15. 4mg 03-24. 3mg 04-08. Jumped 04-21.
Zopiclone free for 251 days. Mirtazapine free for 224 days.

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Thanks everyone for your replies. Alto I really need your help on this one. Yesterday the akathisia was that bad that I was unable to sit down for at least 19 hours because I had to keep pacing, the agitation was unbearable and the suicidal thoughts running through my head was never ending. I reduced my medication last night from 22.1 to 21.9 and took it at about 11.30pm. This seemed to make a huge difference. I  was able to relax this morning, until about 1pm today when the agitation started again. So what you said previously makes sense, as I am sentitised to the Avanza, my body responds to a drop in dose (even when very little), but then later on reacts to the drug being in my body.

 

Alto can you please reassure me that I will find a dosage where the akathisia will stop, or at least be manageable. I am at the end of my tether in dealing with this. I need some long term relief here. If the akathisia episodes only lasted a couple of hours, I would be able to deal with it. But we are talking periods of days. I am taking paraponolol 3 times daily to help with the racing heart Do you think it would be alright to decrease my dosage 0.2mg say every 2 days until I reach the point where the akathisia will stop. I am worried that I will destabilise my central nervous system even further if I do big drops too often, but I am desperate to find relief.

 

I would really appreciate a response as I am really desperate and want to ensure that I will not be doing myself more harm than good by reducing too quickly. Will this stop when I am off the drug completely. If the drug isn't in my body then I can't react to it, but then I am worried major withdrawal symptoms if I come off the drug too quickly. I am very happy to stay on a very small dose if need be, but I am hoping that will not be necessary

 

I need to know that I am going to get through this

Started Avanza for post natal depression in 2002
Sept 2011 withdrew over a 3 month period
January 2012 crashed badly and had to reinstate at 30m
June 2012 to Dec 2012 made several unsuccessful attempts to withdraw
February 2013 have been reducing on liquid avanza by 0.5 mg a week or fortnightly
Currently at 23.5mg
29/07/13 - 22mg, whoo hoo - 1/4 of the way there
10/08/13 - 21mg
01/11/13 - 21.9mg

Have had around 12-14 Ambien since start of December 2012

Have been taking Propranolol since 6 December 2012 6 tablets a day

Had 1 dose of Seroquel 1 January 2013

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Can anyone please help me, I am getting more desperate by the minute and would really appreciate a reply from someone.

Started Avanza for post natal depression in 2002
Sept 2011 withdrew over a 3 month period
January 2012 crashed badly and had to reinstate at 30m
June 2012 to Dec 2012 made several unsuccessful attempts to withdraw
February 2013 have been reducing on liquid avanza by 0.5 mg a week or fortnightly
Currently at 23.5mg
29/07/13 - 22mg, whoo hoo - 1/4 of the way there
10/08/13 - 21mg
01/11/13 - 21.9mg

Have had around 12-14 Ambien since start of December 2012

Have been taking Propranolol since 6 December 2012 6 tablets a day

Had 1 dose of Seroquel 1 January 2013

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I am guessing that as I am this sensitized to my Avanza then starting an antiphysotic such as Seroquel as suggested by my GP, will only compound the problem. I am getting really really desperate and don't want to make the situation worse, but I am running out of options here. Does anyone think that trying Seroquel would be a good idea?? Could someone be kind enough to answer my questions especially the ones in the post above. Thanking you in advance.

Started Avanza for post natal depression in 2002
Sept 2011 withdrew over a 3 month period
January 2012 crashed badly and had to reinstate at 30m
June 2012 to Dec 2012 made several unsuccessful attempts to withdraw
February 2013 have been reducing on liquid avanza by 0.5 mg a week or fortnightly
Currently at 23.5mg
29/07/13 - 22mg, whoo hoo - 1/4 of the way there
10/08/13 - 21mg
01/11/13 - 21.9mg

Have had around 12-14 Ambien since start of December 2012

Have been taking Propranolol since 6 December 2012 6 tablets a day

Had 1 dose of Seroquel 1 January 2013

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goldensun, you will get through this.

Mirtazapine is really a very tricky drug. And for people with sensitive nervous system there could be many paradoxical and unpredictable reactions, so it's really hard to tell what's causing what and what to do. I've been like that very often during my psych journey. When I was in psych ward I had developed a gradual overdose of not really big dose of antipsychotics, I felt beyond awful and beyond suicidal, extreme psychological akathisia (not a physical one, but I had a physical akathisia many times prior to that as well) and anxiety. Even pdocs in hospital didn't know what to do with me and I was fully dependant on them and their decisions and I didn't have this forum. I was in pure agony 24/7. But IT PASSED. And so will you get through this.

 

I haven't read your topic fully, haven't you tried some common remedies or meds for akathisia? In your situation you probably could consider even trihexyphenidyl as a short time treatment. 

Feb2012-Nov2012 - flupentixol 1mg

Nov2012-Jun2013 - amisulpride 50mg for 1mo, seroquel 300mg for 1mo, olanzapine 10mg for 4mo

Jun 2013: CT olanzapine

 

Jul 2013 - Oct 2013: mirtazapine 30mg

Nov 2013: 4 week taper down to 0.1mg

Nov 2013 - Feb 2014 - 0.1mg

Feb 2014: updosed to 1mg 

March 2014 - now: updosed to 5mg and holding

 

25 years old

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  • Administrator

goldensun, I can't say for sure what's going on with you.

 

I believe I read that at lower doses, the adrenergic effect of mirtazapine is more pronounced. This might be what's happening.

 

Do not skip doses.

 

goldensun, my guess is your system became destabilized because of the jump up from 21.9mg to 27mg.You are sensitized to the effects of mirtazapine. You get relief when you decrease because of this, but then your system reacts to the drug again.You were not becoming unstable at 21.9mg. I think Petu was correct that you experienced a wave.I don't believe you can go back to a place where you were stable before, you need to find a new level. I don't know at what level you might find relief from the akathisia. I might keep decreasing slightly every few days, maybe by 0.1mg, until the akathisia abates.

This is not medical advice. Discuss any decisions about your medical care with a knowledgeable medical practitioner.

"It has become appallingly obvious that our technology has surpassed our humanity." -- Albert Einstein

All postings © copyrighted.

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Thanks Altostrata I don't know what that means I am sorry, could you please explain it to me. What am I going to do??

Started Avanza for post natal depression in 2002
Sept 2011 withdrew over a 3 month period
January 2012 crashed badly and had to reinstate at 30m
June 2012 to Dec 2012 made several unsuccessful attempts to withdraw
February 2013 have been reducing on liquid avanza by 0.5 mg a week or fortnightly
Currently at 23.5mg
29/07/13 - 22mg, whoo hoo - 1/4 of the way there
10/08/13 - 21mg
01/11/13 - 21.9mg

Have had around 12-14 Ambien since start of December 2012

Have been taking Propranolol since 6 December 2012 6 tablets a day

Had 1 dose of Seroquel 1 January 2013

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  • Administrator

That mirtazapine can be stimulating. It sounds like it's having that effect on you.

 

Reducing it may help, that's only my guess.

This is not medical advice. Discuss any decisions about your medical care with a knowledgeable medical practitioner.

"It has become appallingly obvious that our technology has surpassed our humanity." -- Albert Einstein

All postings © copyrighted.

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How much do you think I should reduce it by? Reducing by 0.1 or 0.2 does not seem to be enough. Should I just go cold turkey. Anything would have to better than this.

Started Avanza for post natal depression in 2002
Sept 2011 withdrew over a 3 month period
January 2012 crashed badly and had to reinstate at 30m
June 2012 to Dec 2012 made several unsuccessful attempts to withdraw
February 2013 have been reducing on liquid avanza by 0.5 mg a week or fortnightly
Currently at 23.5mg
29/07/13 - 22mg, whoo hoo - 1/4 of the way there
10/08/13 - 21mg
01/11/13 - 21.9mg

Have had around 12-14 Ambien since start of December 2012

Have been taking Propranolol since 6 December 2012 6 tablets a day

Had 1 dose of Seroquel 1 January 2013

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  • Administrator

I am suggesting 0.1mg every few days to reduce the risk of additional destabilization from withdrawal symptoms. It's up to you. Please do not go cold turkey.

This is not medical advice. Discuss any decisions about your medical care with a knowledgeable medical practitioner.

"It has become appallingly obvious that our technology has surpassed our humanity." -- Albert Einstein

All postings © copyrighted.

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I can't get through this Alto, 0.1mg every few days isn't giving me any relief. 0.2 mg the first day some relief for a few hours but then it all started again.

Started Avanza for post natal depression in 2002
Sept 2011 withdrew over a 3 month period
January 2012 crashed badly and had to reinstate at 30m
June 2012 to Dec 2012 made several unsuccessful attempts to withdraw
February 2013 have been reducing on liquid avanza by 0.5 mg a week or fortnightly
Currently at 23.5mg
29/07/13 - 22mg, whoo hoo - 1/4 of the way there
10/08/13 - 21mg
01/11/13 - 21.9mg

Have had around 12-14 Ambien since start of December 2012

Have been taking Propranolol since 6 December 2012 6 tablets a day

Had 1 dose of Seroquel 1 January 2013

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  • Administrator

You might try reducing 0.1mg per day.

This is not medical advice. Discuss any decisions about your medical care with a knowledgeable medical practitioner.

"It has become appallingly obvious that our technology has surpassed our humanity." -- Albert Einstein

All postings © copyrighted.

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No cold turkey! That might make things very awful! For me lowering to fast insomnia gets worse, but other symptoms better. It is hard to give advice regarding what dose you should take. For me stability always won. Becoming stable on a dose takes several days. It takes 7-10 days for a new dose to get stable in blood serum.

 

Are you taking buscopan now? When I where at higher dose of mirtazapine i did not tolerate other medications, and had severe reactions to all of them. Buscopan is a strong medication, like scopolamine. It might change your tolerance to mirtazapine.

 

propanonolol have been used to treat akathisia, i have also found information somewhere that it could work opposite. When where your start of this medication in relation to your akathisia?

 

I would so very much like to be able to help more!

 

I found the best help when i was at my lowest from doing all the small support things, and time became my stabilizer/healer. Listening to favorite music, exercises for the lower back, watching favorite movies and series. Slow walks, with meditation. For me many symptoms became better at lower doses (15 mg), so you might not be so far from there. There is hope!

 

I had severe IBS like symptoms. Food went through undigested. All sorts of bowel trouble at higher doses. The best thing for this i found was to eat things that are easy digested like Swedish meat soup. Cook diced meat for on hour, add diced vegetables, carrots, potatoes and cook 10 minutes more till they are done, add salt, pepper, herbs, coconut fat if you have it. This is the most easy digested food i have found. It settled my IBS and gastrointestinal pain.

 

For lower back pain i have three simple exercises that are very helpful. I you like i can post them.

 

Bear hugs,

Wulfgar

2010: Mirtazapine 30mg followed by Zopiclone 7.5 mg for sleep post surgery due to pain.
2012-> Tapering Mirtazapine and Zopiclone at different rates unsuccessfully.
2013: Hospitalized 10 days due to complete Insomnia. Forced back up to 45mg Mirtazapine, 7.5 mg Zopiclone and also Theralene 1 ml.
2013-03: Lab showed Vitamin D deficient. Found the vitamin d and insomnia connection. Supplementing vitamin d. Sleep improved by 1-2 hours
2013-04: Dropped mirtazapine to 30 due to severe side effects. Quit Theralene. Zopiclone 7.5.
2013-05 - 2013-11: Mirtazapine taper monthly 25 20 15 11 8 4 2.5 mg
2013-12 Holding M at 2.5. Need to taper Zopiclone due to daytime nausea and vomiting. Taper zopiclone 1/4 red every 5 d. Last Z 2013-12-19
2013-12-31 M:2.5. Reinstated Zopiclone 3.75 due to Insomnia
2014-01-06 M:2.5. Taper Z 1.9 ... 2014-01-14 M:2.5. Z 1 mg.
Jumped of Zopiclone 01-20. Jumped mirtazapine 02-16.

Theralene: 10mg 02-09. 8mg 03-09. 5mg 03-15. 4mg 03-24. 3mg 04-08. Jumped 04-21.
Zopiclone free for 251 days. Mirtazapine free for 224 days.

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As things were not getting any better at the lower doses, I increased my dosage from 22mg to 23mg in one go. The akathesia stopped the next day on 23mgy. I still felt very agitated and restless but I was able to sit down at least and lie down at night time. The only sleep I seem to be getting is when I have a sleeping tablet (find I am becoming rather dependant on them). I am also taking 20mg of propranolol 3 times a day. I feel that this could be keeping me awake at night, even though it slows my heart rate down, I still feel very wired and find it hard to close my eyes. I feel I should maybe try and stabilise on 23mg for now and possibly cut my propranolol to 10mg, 3 times a day. Alto could you please let me know your thoughts on what I should. Is it possible that too much propranolol could be having a paradoxical effect and actually be increasing my agitation, even though it does initially slow my heart rate down, and do you think that I should try and stabilise on 23mg as the akathisia has seemed to have settled. Just a quick question, if 23mg is still overdosing, can the body adapt to a level that is too high, just as it adapts to a cut in dosage. I ask this because even though the akathisia seemed to have settled at 23mg my other withdrawal symptoms have seemed to have increased. I know this sounds really confusing but I really value your advice. Thank you

Started Avanza for post natal depression in 2002
Sept 2011 withdrew over a 3 month period
January 2012 crashed badly and had to reinstate at 30m
June 2012 to Dec 2012 made several unsuccessful attempts to withdraw
February 2013 have been reducing on liquid avanza by 0.5 mg a week or fortnightly
Currently at 23.5mg
29/07/13 - 22mg, whoo hoo - 1/4 of the way there
10/08/13 - 21mg
01/11/13 - 21.9mg

Have had around 12-14 Ambien since start of December 2012

Have been taking Propranolol since 6 December 2012 6 tablets a day

Had 1 dose of Seroquel 1 January 2013

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  • Administrator

It's possible propranolol is causing a paradoxical reaction. Your guess is as good as mine.

 

Please don't make dramatic cuts in propranolol. Try a small reduction in one of your doses and see if it helps.

 

Do your symptoms have any daily pattern?

This is not medical advice. Discuss any decisions about your medical care with a knowledgeable medical practitioner.

"It has become appallingly obvious that our technology has surpassed our humanity." -- Albert Einstein

All postings © copyrighted.

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Thanks Altostrata. I will try cutting out just one tablet, on the night time dose as this is the one closest to bed time. That means that I take 2 in the morning and 2 at about 2pm and I will only take 1 at 7pm instead of 2 which is my night time dose. Alto at the moment my symptoms are all over the place and have not been able to find a pattern, but it is around 10pm at night that my symptoms seem to abate for at least a little whileI know that I have increased to 23mg the akathesia has abated, but I am still very agitated and anxious. Should I stay at this dosage for now. Thanking you again in advance.

Started Avanza for post natal depression in 2002
Sept 2011 withdrew over a 3 month period
January 2012 crashed badly and had to reinstate at 30m
June 2012 to Dec 2012 made several unsuccessful attempts to withdraw
February 2013 have been reducing on liquid avanza by 0.5 mg a week or fortnightly
Currently at 23.5mg
29/07/13 - 22mg, whoo hoo - 1/4 of the way there
10/08/13 - 21mg
01/11/13 - 21.9mg

Have had around 12-14 Ambien since start of December 2012

Have been taking Propranolol since 6 December 2012 6 tablets a day

Had 1 dose of Seroquel 1 January 2013

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Alto when I took the 23mg 2 days ago the next day the akathesia had subsided but as the day progressed my nausea and back pain got a lot worse. Does this indicate to you that maybe that maybe it was too much of an increase and I should try and decrease say 0.1mg to I find a balance where the akathisia is no longer present and the other symptoms get less, or should I just try and stay on 23mg and try and stabilise. I just feel that I have to find the right dosage between akathisia, and being able to sleep. My sleep is real big issue and therefore thought maybe that the propranolol maybe coming into play.

Started Avanza for post natal depression in 2002
Sept 2011 withdrew over a 3 month period
January 2012 crashed badly and had to reinstate at 30m
June 2012 to Dec 2012 made several unsuccessful attempts to withdraw
February 2013 have been reducing on liquid avanza by 0.5 mg a week or fortnightly
Currently at 23.5mg
29/07/13 - 22mg, whoo hoo - 1/4 of the way there
10/08/13 - 21mg
01/11/13 - 21.9mg

Have had around 12-14 Ambien since start of December 2012

Have been taking Propranolol since 6 December 2012 6 tablets a day

Had 1 dose of Seroquel 1 January 2013

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Hi Alto I really would like to get off the propranolol as I think it is keeping me awake. I am taking 2 tablets 3 times a day currently. I do feel a definite lowering of my heart rate when I take it. Would cutting out one tablet a week at a time be a good idea. Maybe starting with the night time dose and only take one tablet then, and then after a week take one less tablet at the afternoon dose and so on till I am off them completely. I have been taking the tablets for about 3 weeks and have been having mostly 6 tablets a day (60mg).

Started Avanza for post natal depression in 2002
Sept 2011 withdrew over a 3 month period
January 2012 crashed badly and had to reinstate at 30m
June 2012 to Dec 2012 made several unsuccessful attempts to withdraw
February 2013 have been reducing on liquid avanza by 0.5 mg a week or fortnightly
Currently at 23.5mg
29/07/13 - 22mg, whoo hoo - 1/4 of the way there
10/08/13 - 21mg
01/11/13 - 21.9mg

Have had around 12-14 Ambien since start of December 2012

Have been taking Propranolol since 6 December 2012 6 tablets a day

Had 1 dose of Seroquel 1 January 2013

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  • Administrator

Thanks Altostrata. I will try cutting out just one tablet, on the night time dose as this is the one closest to bed time. That means that I take 2 in the morning and 2 at about 2pm and I will only take 1 at 7pm instead of 2 which is my night time dose. Alto at the moment my symptoms are all over the place and have not been able to find a pattern, but it is around 10pm at night that my symptoms seem to abate for at least a little whileI know that I have increased to 23mg the akathesia has abated, but I am still very agitated and anxious. Should I stay at this dosage for now. Thanking you again in advance.

If your symptoms abate at 10 pm, why do you think the propanolol is the problem? What other drugs do you take in the evening?

 

Alto when I took the 23mg 2 days ago the next day the akathesia had subsided but as the day progressed my nausea and back pain got a lot worse. Does this indicate to you that maybe that maybe it was too much of an increase and I should try and decrease say 0.1mg to I find a balance where the akathisia is no longer present and the other symptoms get less, or should I just try and stay on 23mg and try and stabilise. I just feel that I have to find the right dosage between akathisia, and being able to sleep. My sleep is real big issue and therefore thought maybe that the propranolol maybe coming into play.

It's possible 23mg is a little too high. BUT -- don't change 2 drugs at once!

 

I would not decrease daily propanolol from 6 tablets to 5 tablets. That's too big of a drop. If propanolol is the problem, I would decrease by 1/2 tablet to start.

This is not medical advice. Discuss any decisions about your medical care with a knowledgeable medical practitioner.

"It has become appallingly obvious that our technology has surpassed our humanity." -- Albert Einstein

All postings © copyrighted.

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I am a terrible mess and can't seem to find a way out of this. I started Seroquel yesterday under the doctors supervision and akathesia is back with a vengeance. I am at a total loss.

Started Avanza for post natal depression in 2002
Sept 2011 withdrew over a 3 month period
January 2012 crashed badly and had to reinstate at 30m
June 2012 to Dec 2012 made several unsuccessful attempts to withdraw
February 2013 have been reducing on liquid avanza by 0.5 mg a week or fortnightly
Currently at 23.5mg
29/07/13 - 22mg, whoo hoo - 1/4 of the way there
10/08/13 - 21mg
01/11/13 - 21.9mg

Have had around 12-14 Ambien since start of December 2012

Have been taking Propranolol since 6 December 2012 6 tablets a day

Had 1 dose of Seroquel 1 January 2013

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  • Administrator

I can understand you very much want to do something about your condition but adding in yet another drug has made it even more complicated.

 

Usually, if you're sensitized by withdrawal and a drug makes you worse, it's not a good idea to keep taking it.

This is not medical advice. Discuss any decisions about your medical care with a knowledgeable medical practitioner.

"It has become appallingly obvious that our technology has surpassed our humanity." -- Albert Einstein

All postings © copyrighted.

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What about Ambien Alto,  I have been using it for sleep with success. I really need to take this to be able to function and I am always much better the day after and the akathisia is way less. Should I continue to take it if it appears to be helping or will it in the end make the akathisia worse as well???

Started Avanza for post natal depression in 2002
Sept 2011 withdrew over a 3 month period
January 2012 crashed badly and had to reinstate at 30m
June 2012 to Dec 2012 made several unsuccessful attempts to withdraw
February 2013 have been reducing on liquid avanza by 0.5 mg a week or fortnightly
Currently at 23.5mg
29/07/13 - 22mg, whoo hoo - 1/4 of the way there
10/08/13 - 21mg
01/11/13 - 21.9mg

Have had around 12-14 Ambien since start of December 2012

Have been taking Propranolol since 6 December 2012 6 tablets a day

Had 1 dose of Seroquel 1 January 2013

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  • Moderator Emeritus

I also understand how you are desperate to get relief from your symptoms, many of us are.  But using drugs to relieve unpleasant symptoms was what got us into problems in the first place.

 

We don't support adding more drugs for symptom relief because although they can 'sometimes', provide some temporary relief of current symptoms, they cause more harm in the long run and add another drug which then needs to be tapered off.  Often, in a destabilized nervous system, new drugs turn paradoxical and increase the chaos.

 

How long have you been using Ambien, do you take it every night?

 

Please would you add the Propranolol, Seroquel and Ambien to your signature.

 

 

 

 

I'm not a doctor.  My comments are not medical advise. These are my opinions based on my own experience and what I've learned. Please discuss your situation with a medical practitioner who has knowledge of tapering and withdrawal...if you are lucky enough to find one.

My Introduction Thread

Full Drug and Withdrawal History

Brief Summary

Several SSRIs for 13 years starting 1997 (for mild to moderate partly situational anxiety) Xanax PRN ~ Various other drugs over the years for side effects

2 month 'taper' off Lexapro 2010

Short acute withdrawal, followed by 2 -3 months of improvement then delayed protracted withdrawal

DX ADHD followed by several years of stimulants and other drugs trying to manage increasing symptoms

Failed reinstatement of Lexapro and trial of Prozac (became suicidal)

May 2013 Found SA, learned about withdrawal, stopped taking drugs...healing begins.

Protracted withdrawal, with a very sensitized nervous system, slowly recovering as time passes

Supplements which have helped: Vitamin C, Magnesium, Taurine

Bad reactions: Many supplements but mostly fish oil and Vitamin D

June 2016 - Started daily juicing, mostly vegetables and lots of greens.

Aug 2016 - Oct 2016 Best window ever, felt almost completely recovered

Oct 2016 -Symptoms returned - bad days and less bad days.

April 2018 - No windows, but significant improvement, it feels like permanent full recovery is close.

VIDEO: Where did the chemical imbalance theory come from?



VIDEO: How are psychiatric diagnoses made?



VIDEO: Why do psychiatric drugs have withdrawal syndromes?



VIDEO: Can psychiatric drugs cause long-lasting negative effects?

VIDEO: Dr. Claire Weekes

 

 

 

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I have probably had 12 sleeping tablets in the last 4 weeks and never had 2 nights in a row. have only had one dose of seroquel. I have been taking the propranolol for 3 weeks, anywhere between 4 and 6 tablets a day.

Started Avanza for post natal depression in 2002
Sept 2011 withdrew over a 3 month period
January 2012 crashed badly and had to reinstate at 30m
June 2012 to Dec 2012 made several unsuccessful attempts to withdraw
February 2013 have been reducing on liquid avanza by 0.5 mg a week or fortnightly
Currently at 23.5mg
29/07/13 - 22mg, whoo hoo - 1/4 of the way there
10/08/13 - 21mg
01/11/13 - 21.9mg

Have had around 12-14 Ambien since start of December 2012

Have been taking Propranolol since 6 December 2012 6 tablets a day

Had 1 dose of Seroquel 1 January 2013

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I have been pacing for over 12 hours now and it was 19 the other day. There is no reprieve except maybe a few hours when I have

had some Ambien. Someone please help me.

Started Avanza for post natal depression in 2002
Sept 2011 withdrew over a 3 month period
January 2012 crashed badly and had to reinstate at 30m
June 2012 to Dec 2012 made several unsuccessful attempts to withdraw
February 2013 have been reducing on liquid avanza by 0.5 mg a week or fortnightly
Currently at 23.5mg
29/07/13 - 22mg, whoo hoo - 1/4 of the way there
10/08/13 - 21mg
01/11/13 - 21.9mg

Have had around 12-14 Ambien since start of December 2012

Have been taking Propranolol since 6 December 2012 6 tablets a day

Had 1 dose of Seroquel 1 January 2013

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It is just painful to read your thread.

 

If you have to pace, when it is day, you might want to walk slowly barefoot...an idea called grounding. When I had mental akathisia, just being outside was helpful. Be sure your sleeping area is completely dark, quiet, cool. I know those aren't full solutions, it seems it just has to run it's course. I'm thinking of you.

1st round Prozac 1989/90, clear depression symptoms. 2nd round Prozac started 1999 when admitted to dr. I was tired. Prozac pooped out, switch to Cymbalta 3/2006. Diagnosed with bipolar disorder due to mania 6/2006--then I was taken abruptly off Cymbalta and didn't know I had SSRI withdrawal. Lots of meds for my intractable "bipolar" symptoms.

Zyprexa started about 9/06, mostly 5mg. Tapered 4/12 through12/29/12

Wellbutrin. XL 300 mg started 1/07, tapered 1/18/13 through 7/8/13

Oxazepam mostly continuously since 6/06, 30mg since 12/12, tapered 1.17.14 through 8.26.15

11/06 Lithium 600mg twice daily, 2.2.14 400mg TID DIY liquid, 2.12.14 1150mg, 3.2.14 1100mg, 3.18.14 1075mg, 4/14 updose to 1100mg, 6.1.14 900 mg capsules 7.8.14 810mg, 8.17.14 725mg, 8.24.24 700mg...10.22.14 487.5mg, 3.9.15 475mg, 4.1.15 462.5mg 4.21.15 450mg 8.11.15 375mg, 11.28.15 362.5mg, back to 375mg four days later, 3.4.16 updose to 475 (too much going on to risk trouble)

9/4/13 Toprol-XL 25mg daily for sudden hypertension, tapered 11.12.13 through 5.3.14, last 10 days or so switched to atenolol

7.4.14 Started Walsh Protocol

56 years old

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  • Administrator

Is this a new symptom since you took the Seroquel?

This is not medical advice. Discuss any decisions about your medical care with a knowledgeable medical practitioner.

"It has become appallingly obvious that our technology has surpassed our humanity." -- Albert Einstein

All postings © copyrighted.

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No AltoI have been severly pacing for 2 months now everyday. I have noticed that my symptoms seem to get a lot worse in the

afternoon. As I take my medication at night does this indicate that I am underusing and my body is looking for an increase in the Avanza. I thought if I was using too much then, as the next day progressed I would begin to feel better not worse as the medication wore off.

Started Avanza for post natal depression in 2002
Sept 2011 withdrew over a 3 month period
January 2012 crashed badly and had to reinstate at 30m
June 2012 to Dec 2012 made several unsuccessful attempts to withdraw
February 2013 have been reducing on liquid avanza by 0.5 mg a week or fortnightly
Currently at 23.5mg
29/07/13 - 22mg, whoo hoo - 1/4 of the way there
10/08/13 - 21mg
01/11/13 - 21.9mg

Have had around 12-14 Ambien since start of December 2012

Have been taking Propranolol since 6 December 2012 6 tablets a day

Had 1 dose of Seroquel 1 January 2013

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I just don't know if I should be increasing or decreasing. I am trying to follow my symptom pattern and that is, in the night when I take my Avanza my symptoms seem to get better and in the morning they are ok, but as the day progresses my symptoms get worse. I feel that this indicates that I am getting relief when I take the dose, then as time goes on I am craving more, If I was using

too much in the beginning wouldn't I feel worse straight after the dose and then as time went on would feel better as the medicinewore off. Alto could you please give me your best opinion on this. I am so desperate to get some relief. I have had this for 2 months now, and can't take anymore. Please help me. Is it normal for someone to have akathisia this bad. I am only sleeping maybe onenight a week for 3 or 4 hours and the episodes of pacing and wanting to kill myself last for 20 hours or more somedays.

Started Avanza for post natal depression in 2002
Sept 2011 withdrew over a 3 month period
January 2012 crashed badly and had to reinstate at 30m
June 2012 to Dec 2012 made several unsuccessful attempts to withdraw
February 2013 have been reducing on liquid avanza by 0.5 mg a week or fortnightly
Currently at 23.5mg
29/07/13 - 22mg, whoo hoo - 1/4 of the way there
10/08/13 - 21mg
01/11/13 - 21.9mg

Have had around 12-14 Ambien since start of December 2012

Have been taking Propranolol since 6 December 2012 6 tablets a day

Had 1 dose of Seroquel 1 January 2013

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Golden sun, I hope Alto will ruthlessly critique this, but will throw this out.

 

I started metoprolol, similar to atenolol, this fall when my BP spiked. The smallest dose was ok, when doubled my sleep was really torn up. My feeling is that this level of insomnia is very dangerous. Have you tried an Epsom salt bath? If that doesn't work, I personally would try a benzo (which work for me although Ambien doesn't). I read once that well-placed benzo use has prevented many serious episodes.

 

A much riskier approach would be to drop your AD faster. In my nervous system, they are the root of all evil.

 

Please wait for someone knowledgeable before you do anything but the bath...Epsom salts needs to be in the home of anyone withdrawing :)

1st round Prozac 1989/90, clear depression symptoms. 2nd round Prozac started 1999 when admitted to dr. I was tired. Prozac pooped out, switch to Cymbalta 3/2006. Diagnosed with bipolar disorder due to mania 6/2006--then I was taken abruptly off Cymbalta and didn't know I had SSRI withdrawal. Lots of meds for my intractable "bipolar" symptoms.

Zyprexa started about 9/06, mostly 5mg. Tapered 4/12 through12/29/12

Wellbutrin. XL 300 mg started 1/07, tapered 1/18/13 through 7/8/13

Oxazepam mostly continuously since 6/06, 30mg since 12/12, tapered 1.17.14 through 8.26.15

11/06 Lithium 600mg twice daily, 2.2.14 400mg TID DIY liquid, 2.12.14 1150mg, 3.2.14 1100mg, 3.18.14 1075mg, 4/14 updose to 1100mg, 6.1.14 900 mg capsules 7.8.14 810mg, 8.17.14 725mg, 8.24.24 700mg...10.22.14 487.5mg, 3.9.15 475mg, 4.1.15 462.5mg 4.21.15 450mg 8.11.15 375mg, 11.28.15 362.5mg, back to 375mg four days later, 3.4.16 updose to 475 (too much going on to risk trouble)

9/4/13 Toprol-XL 25mg daily for sudden hypertension, tapered 11.12.13 through 5.3.14, last 10 days or so switched to atenolol

7.4.14 Started Walsh Protocol

56 years old

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I am trying to follow my symptom pattern and that is, in the night when I take my Avanza my symptoms seem to get better and in the morning they are ok, but as the day progresses my symptoms get worse. I feel that this indicates that I am getting relief when I take the dose, then as time goes on I am craving more, If I was using

too much in the beginning wouldn't I feel worse straight after the dose and then as time went on would feel better as the medicinewore off.

 

 

I think that akathisia is always more pronounced as the day progresses, and not in the morning and of course not straight after the dose. At least it ALWAYS was the case for me. It seems that your assumption is wrong. When I had my first akathisia it started in the evening 7 hours after the dose. Next day in the morning there was no akathisia at all, but after 11 o'clock it gradually started and became very severe again.

I'm sorry I can't offer much help to you, only can suggest to try to add to propanolol some anticholinergic (benztropine, biperiden, trihexyphenidyl) just to see how will you react, as often it will better work in a combo. In Russian wikipedia it is written that beta blocker pindolol is more effective with antidepressant akathisia. Other meds that are used to treat akathisia are benzos, anticonvulsants, weak opiates, vitamin B6.

Feb2012-Nov2012 - flupentixol 1mg

Nov2012-Jun2013 - amisulpride 50mg for 1mo, seroquel 300mg for 1mo, olanzapine 10mg for 4mo

Jun 2013: CT olanzapine

 

Jul 2013 - Oct 2013: mirtazapine 30mg

Nov 2013: 4 week taper down to 0.1mg

Nov 2013 - Feb 2014 - 0.1mg

Feb 2014: updosed to 1mg 

March 2014 - now: updosed to 5mg and holding

 

25 years old

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  • Administrator

Goldensun, I re-read your entire topic, and I must say my mind is reeling. There have been so many changes -- up, down, more drugs, quit drugs, etc. -- it's impossible to tell what's doing what.And wulfgar brings up a very good point, the potential 40-hour half-life of mirtazapine in women. Any changes you make now, you might not feel for several days.The only thing I know is your nervous system is destabilized. It may be reacting badly to any of the changes you make.

It's possible propranolol is causing a paradoxical reaction. Your guess is as good as mine. Please don't make dramatic cuts in propranolol. Try a small reduction in one of your doses and see if it helps. ...

Did you make any changes in propranolol? 

What about Ambien Alto,  I have been using it for sleep with success. I really need to take this to be able to function and I am always much better the day after and the akathisia is way less. Should I continue to take it if it appears to be helping or will it in the end make the akathisia worse as well???

Is it only when you take Ambien that you feel better in the morning? If so, it's because of the Ambien. If not, it's something else, maybe the mirtazapine or the lack of propranolol during the night.What is your propranolol schedule?

This is not medical advice. Discuss any decisions about your medical care with a knowledgeable medical practitioner.

"It has become appallingly obvious that our technology has surpassed our humanity." -- Albert Einstein

All postings © copyrighted.

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Alto I have decided not to change the propranolol schedule for the moment. What and the hell am I meant to do??

Started Avanza for post natal depression in 2002
Sept 2011 withdrew over a 3 month period
January 2012 crashed badly and had to reinstate at 30m
June 2012 to Dec 2012 made several unsuccessful attempts to withdraw
February 2013 have been reducing on liquid avanza by 0.5 mg a week or fortnightly
Currently at 23.5mg
29/07/13 - 22mg, whoo hoo - 1/4 of the way there
10/08/13 - 21mg
01/11/13 - 21.9mg

Have had around 12-14 Ambien since start of December 2012

Have been taking Propranolol since 6 December 2012 6 tablets a day

Had 1 dose of Seroquel 1 January 2013

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