DJones: Celexa kindling reaction

[SquirrellyGirl]

DJ, could you review for me your past usage?

 

In 2013 (June) you were at 20 mg Celexa and wrote you just got worse, but then in July you went down to 5 mg and added the klonopin to try to stabilize. Did you ever stabilize and feel ok before going down to 3 mg as of 5/15?  Was there tapering in between, and if so how did that go? You crashed at .8 mg Celexa and reinstated to 1.1 mg - did that work?  Back down to 0.8 a month later...

 

I'm dubious about updosing the Celexa again as by your sig it looks like it never really helped to do so in the past.  It would help if we could look at those past reinstatements again.  I'm wondering why you dropped back to 0.8 one month after updosing to 1.1 mg from 0.8.

 

I know I could read through your thread to find the info but I think this would be a good place to review the details, what you were experiencing.

 

I'm sorry you are having such a difficult time still, really wanting for things to turn around for you.

 

SG

[Djones1984]

March 2013 I was put back on 40mg Celexa after about 2 months off after a to quick taper. I felt that was way to activating and had adverse kindling reactions from that and the paxil and other drugs they had me on over the course of a few months.

 

I finally went back on 5mg Celexa around July 2015 I stayed at 5mg for over a year and began to taper until now I am at 1.5.

 

I was more stable than I am now at 1.5mg in the past but I am also moving the klonoipn dose times right now aswell.

 

It all got bad when like you said I went to .80 and back up to 1.1mg and back down again. Don't know why I did that I guess I just thought it wasn't enough to make a difference and wanted off but I was wrong.

 

So to answer your question in was better at 2mg or 3mg than I am now. My symptoms are.

 

Akathesia

Panic

Anxiety

Cns sensitive to everything

Neeve pain, pain, burning, tension

Tremors, shaking internal buzzing

Electrical sensations

Numbness

Dizzy Ness

Hearing things, visual issues, floaters

Dp

Brain fog

Mind racing, can't concentrate, feels like it's short circuiting

Agitation

Severe depression

Internal discomfort

Sensitive to food

Exhoust ion

Eye pressure

Terror fear spells

And the list goes on

[Altostrata]

Dj, as you know, my guess is you need to even out the Klonopin dosage rather than tinkering with the Celexa dosage.

 

If you make changes in Klonopin and Celexa at the same time, you will make your situation even more murky.

 

Please work with Dr. Emmons to make your decisions.

[Djones1984]

Alto Dr emmons told me to hold on the klonopin with the 6 hour spread which is what I am doing. He suggested I could increase the celexa to 5mg however I want to do it and stay on until I finish my klonoipn taper whenever that is.

[Djones1984]

I basically have a 6 hour spread on the klonopin now for the last week and I feel worse now than ever. I am tired

[Altostrata]

Dr. Emmons does not want to confuse the situation with changing 2 drugs at once. This is appropriate.

 

You've long been worrying about the Celexa, he's responding to that, isn't he?

 

You need to follow one set of instructions or the other:

• Continue to even out the benzo dosage and keep to the low Celexa dosage; OR
• Stop the benzo changes and increase the Celexa.

Do not change the benzo dosing and increase Celexa at the same time.

 

As you are now working with Dr. Emmons, I suggest you follow his instructions and see what happens. You can let us know how you're doing.

[Djones1984]

Took his advice and Updosed from 1.5mg to 2mg of Celexa on Sunday I am way more messed up now than I ever been. Boy I really screwed up now think it's about all over for me. I will not be taking the 2mg again and staying at 1.5 and holding everything for a good long while. But I think I really screwed myself now.

[FunkyBaboon]

Hello Djones, really sorry to hear that your updose wasn't very successful. What happened when you increased the dose?

[Djones1984]

More akathesia, over sensitivity, pain, nausea, tension, weird sensations in head and the lit goes on.

[Djones1984]

Doctor says to ride it out but I don't think that Is a very good idea I have no idea.

[Djones1984]

Ya I went back to 1.5mg today and I guess I am just going to hold here I am in way worse shape than before hope I dident screw myself up to bad.

[SquirrellyGirl]

At least it wasn't a bigger up-dose, so I'm sure you will settle down and not have screwed yourself up :-)  That is why we recommend such small reinstatement doses or up-doses, so that if things go wrong it won't have been such a big perturbation.  Hang tight, DJ

 

SG

[Djones1984]

It seems to me after updosing the celexa for a few days and all the symproms that are bothering me got way worse as it is telling me it's way to activating and my body is rejecting it. So wouldn't it make sense that if I threw the stuff in the garbage I would be better off than I am now on it? I have no idea I guess I just need to hold but something is telling me staying on the celexa is doing me more harm than good. I took an extra dose of klonopin to make it through the other day and felt better so I don't really believe I am getting paradoxical reactions from that.

[Altostrata]

As you know, Dj, we have been urging you to even out the benzo dose and stop worrying about the Celexa. This you have not done.

 

You have to decide what you want to do. Communicate your decision to Dr. Emmons and please work with him.

[Djones1984]

Alto thank you I have evened my benzo dosing out I have been steady on a 6 hour spread for awhile now. I am seeing emmons next week I will just keep holding as any other option just makes it worse.

[Altostrata]

When did you get to an every 6-hour dosing?

[Djones1984]

Suppose it's been about 2 weeks alto.

[Djones1984]

I take my night dose at 12am so not exactly but pretty close.

[Altostrata]

Please continue the discussion in your Benzo forum topic http://survivingantidepressants.org/index.php?/topic/11087-djones-klonopin-withdrawal-symptoms/page-6#entry223452

 

DJ, I do not monitor the Benzo forum. Wellness and Skyler are far more knowledgeable about benzo tapering than I am.

 

What has been your daily symptom pattern since you evened out your benzo dosing (sort of) and your drug dosing, including the Celexa?

 

This is the only way to tell if something is working or not. When you keep on making changes, the pattern cannot settle out.

 

Please stop asking for advice about changing your Celexa dosing until your benzo dosing settles down. Having activity in your two topics at once adds to confusion.

[Djones1984]

I have been feeling almost the worse off I have ever been since upping the celexa dose from 1.5mg to 2mg for 3 days. I hope I dident completely ruin any recovery I may have had. I am so scared right now it went from bad to really bad real quick.

[Djones1984]

Dr wants me to quit taking the celexa he says after 3 years it's just prolonging healing and might be making me worse.

[Vonnegutjunky]

Djones - just read your whole story - I almost wonder if your in withdrawal and the small dose of celexa has just got you In a perpetual kindling? Or maybe the small dose isn't doing anything and your just in withdrawal? Which would explain 3 years of this -

 

I know one thing from my experience - id rather feel sh*tty off the drugs than sh*tty on the drugs (which I did feel horrific when I reinstated and kindled )

 

I wouldn't go off benzos but consider this - my father is on kolonopin for 15 years, and a year or so ago, he would get withdrawal symptoms on his kolonopin while regularly taking them, and increasing his dose was the only thing that fixed it ( yea tolerance wd now he's on like 3mg a day. - horrible)

 

So maybe since you no longer have to celexa to boost the k-pin? Maybe you are sorta in wd from both meds??

 

Maybe mods can come on here and correct me if I'm thinking about this wrong?

 

The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results- ❤️

 

Please make and informed decision w your doc, waffling about it is obviously prolonging your suffering - time to get brave - ❤️

 

Also we have a group on fb if you would like to join us _ it's private and we are there just for social support not really for med advice but we compare war stories and it can help you feel less alone

 

https://www.facebook.com/groups/1644493302486833/

[Djones1984]

Thanks Vonne! Here's the deal I believe I have been in tolorance withdrawl from the klonopin since December. I have spread my doses and have not felt any better and really have no hope of feeling better since I am in tolorance withdrawl. As for the celexa since upping dose to 2mg I know that I kindled again and probably kindling everytime I take it to a certin extent. I feel the longer I hold and just keep going on the same path like you said it's the definition of insanity.

[Vonnegutjunky]

Yes - time to make a change and get brave - its horrible and it's going to be tough but if you go really slow it could be worth it- you might start feeling better - if you went this long in. Kindling you can do the rest - your pretty freaking strong to have come this far!!

[Djones1984]

You mean go slow off the celexa or the klonopin? I am just going to quit the 1.5mg no slow taper there I am just prolonging my suffering and I have been kindled this whOle time I believe.

[Altostrata]

DJ, as usual, we need your daily symptom pattern, when you take your drugs, and their doses.

 

Also, do this:

 

Please continue the discussion in your Benzo forum topic http://survivingantidepressants.org/index.php?/topic/11087-djones-klonopin-withdrawal-symptoms/page-6#entry223452

 

DJ, I do not monitor the Benzo forum. Wellness and Skyler are far more knowledgeable about benzo tapering than I am.

 

What has been your daily symptom pattern since you evened out your benzo dosing (sort of) and your drug dosing, including the Celexa?

 

This is the only way to tell if something is working or not. When you keep on making changes, the pattern cannot settle out.

 

Please stop asking for advice about changing your Celexa dosing until your benzo dosing settles down. Having activity in your two topics at once adds to confusion.

[Djones1984]

 

Klonopin: .125mg 7am .125mg 1pm .125 7pm .125 12am

 

Celexa: 1.5mg 830am fish oil and vit e same time.

 

Will track my symptoms next few days.

[cymbaltawithdrawal5600]

You should have been tracking your symptoms this whole time. Some people do a spreadsheet, someone made one up some time ago. Maybe one of the mods can find it.

 

I've read your thread off and on over the years. I believe you are mistaking changing the dose (increasing) as something that 'undos healing'. I believe not true. Your body is adapting to different doses of the drugs and it takes a long time for you to SEE the results of that adaptation. You change the dose and it has to change courses AGAIN. Some bodies work very slowly.....

 

No mention of taking other stuff like OTC drugs, nasal sprays, tylenol (none of which are any good for you in wd). Diet? Gentle exercise? Caffeine intake? There might be something you are doing which is causing interference (likewise something you are not doing...) A stressful job and family life can cause upset too.

 

You are taking Vit E, maybe not such a good idea? Most fish oil contains E anyway to keep the fish oil stable and E is not an innocuous vitamin. Too much makes people feel vaguely sick, it did that to me. In fact it made me real sick till I realized it was in 2 of the formulations I took years ago. They made a mistake and said high doses were good for you and now they realize they are NOT.

 

What do you think you should do? I see Alto's continual exhortations to keep your drug doses steady and to work with your doc. That's the key to success in this game, steady and slow and give your body time to adjust. If you go cold turkey off everything you'll feel worse I am sure but will you be able to handle that? You can't keep see sawing doses, up down on off, the body revolts. That is what retards healing, healing is just another word for the body bringing its systems back to the normal functioning. Takes years to complete, some is just not visible for a long time. You have to do the rest, the emotional healing.

 

Leave off the concept of 'kindling' and what do you think is happening? Kindling is just a guess in some cases and it might not really accurately describe the cause for your inability to stabilize. Changing dosages and lifestyle could be applicable too.

 

No one likes to see anyone suffer, I am concerned about you.

[Djones1984]

Thanks cymbalta! I am scared for me too I own my own construction business and it's stressful as hell and I also do alot of pysical work in the sun with load noises but I try to wear ear plugs when I can.

 

I take no otc drugs, no caffeine, diet is good, no alcohol I do Smoke cigarettes which I want to quit but now is probably the wrong time.

 

I have no idea how I continue to work it is just plan brutal.

 

The doctor that is helping me thinks I should just stop taking the celexa as he thinks it prolonging my recovery. I don't know who to believe or what to do anymore. I have just had it with all this.

 

My symptom pattern for most days is:

 

7am take .125mg klonopin wake up with anxiety/akathesia and electrical sensations.

 

730am usually brief window of feeling better

 

830am 1.5mg celexa and trader joe fish oil

 

9am akathesia, anxiety, dp, panic sick feeling while driving dizziness.

 

1030am usually a little better but dp/Dr remains some anxiety pain akathesia, dizzyness

 

1pm .125mg klonopin eat lunch worsening of symptoms after eating just a salad even

 

2pm slight window of symptoms lasting a few hours

 

5-6pm akathesia, dp, anxiety come back some.

 

7pm klonopin dose evenings are better than days alot of the time but not always

 

10pm tensiom, anxiety, pain some akathesia not usually as bad.

 

11pm bedtime usually sleep through the night.

[LexAnger]

Hi DJ,

 

Your daily pattern is kind of similar to mine and I believe what I have is a mix of WD and drug toxicity/reaction. Only that you have K in the play making things more complicated.

 

It's a hard place we are in, and to take care of the very opposite two sides. I have been cutting down lexapro regularly to lesson the toxicity while trying to hold as long as possible (7-10 days from each cut) to wait for WD symptoms subside. I have been doing this for 3 months, it looks like the toxicity is getting a bit less after decreasing dose from 3.2 to the current 2.4. My hope is to get to the dose where I can hold longer and taper slower without severe toxicity. I don't think I ever got a true window maybe just 1 day her and there but I'm at least moving down the dose. I feel enduring all the pains and insane symptoms is unavoidable regardless I'm holding or cutting,

 

So you can still work? Brain nonfunctional is one of my main problem from the toxicity.

[cymbaltawithdrawal5600]

ok, I see. I say don't worry about the cigs for now, you need those! Quitting in the middle of this would be A Very Bad Idea.

 

I saw some remeron in your sig... Is that over with? If so, take it out when you can. But if it is still in play how much and when are you taking it?

 

I am going to make a little guess based on the contents of your sig, but that is why we ask you to do them and keep them current, so we don't have to read through your thread to find out what is going on.

 

I don't see drug history prior to 2013 but one is inferred (a 'crash' occurred). Then a really heavy duty drug then the celexa. THEN paxil, THEN celexa again, and let's add a smidge of remeron. Change the dose of celexa a lot (up and down) add in some K, fiddle with the dose of it and then jigger the celexa dose AGAIN, and then AGAIN.

 

This all in the space of a sig spanning 38 months. I think your drug misadventures caused wd syndrome to manifest and reinstatement was not handled well before you got here and it does not seem to have worked in any way since. It may, however, turn itself around if you change NOTHING for a year or more, just take your doses and live with the symptoms and see if they abate. No tapering, no forgetting a dose, no running out of a script. Absolute adherence to a schedule.

 

If you decide you don't want to take the celexa anymore, are you prepared for feeling a lot worse for awhile and know that you cannot go back on it anymore even if the symptoms get worse? Ever? Your body does not like the changing levels of these drugs AT ALL, it cannot figure out what to do when they change. And it may just not like ANY psychoactive drug now or ever. That is what Alto keeps trying to tell you. The body NEEDS stable to GET stable. It takes a long time for it to settle down. I have this analogy that when wd syndrome hits your boc=dy is reacting to the changing levels of the drugs it got used to. You take them away and the body has to return every cell back to factory condition but while you are USING it to live! Ever try to do an engine rebuild while someone is still driving the car?

 

Your doc may be right, no one really knows. There are no learned studies telling us what to do when this happens, and it is your responsibility after all.

 

I actually think, that if you either stick it out and keep the drugs, you may be able to start tapering some time in the future (but after a LONG time, maybe a year or more) OR if you stop the celexa you'll get better too. And it may be worse than now but won't last forever, I am pretty sure. You work outside, you are physically active, you are still sleeping, you arent a drinker or drugger, these are all plusses.

 

Ah but what do I really know. I went cold turkey and it is probably a miracle I survived. But I know what it is like to live through wd and I never listened to those horror stories about not recovering because I know it's an individual thing. And I am lots better but it has taken a long time. SO I know what is possible. And probable. You don't 'undo' healing, it is a process and a lot of it goes on under the level of your awareness anyway.

 

Just keep letting us know how you are doing and what we can do for you, ok?

[Djones1984]

I can kind of work lex there is not a chance I could work a 9 to 5 office job. I have the luxury of starting when I want and leaving when I want but it is rough let me tell you. That toxity is what I feel like with the celexa like I never really stabilized after holding at 5mg for 1.5 years and while tapering after going up for just 3 days to 2mg and every symptom getting twice as bad the doctor thinks I am just prolonging my suffering by staying on aND told me he thinks I should just go off it hold for a good long while and than deal with the klonopin. I don't want to be worse off though and I don't know what to think. There is a chance I could quit it and feel a little better too.

[LexAnger]

I know how difficult it is to even do any work while enduring the insane tourture as I'm going through each day just as bad. You must be very strong to still manage some work and business.

 

if I were you and truly believe the toxicity is causing more problem, I would try to test the water by reducing a tiny bit of Celexa while holding K unchanged, rather than CT. As irrational as it sounds, even our body can't take the poison in one way, we are still have dependency on it in another way.

[cymbaltawithdrawal5600]

Lex,

 

I have been trying to help DJ to see that what he is calling 'toxicity' is how withdrawal syndrome manifests in the body, it is what it FEELS like. The drug itself is not toxic but continuing to take it does not feel like it is doing any good. It is just too soon for him even out and feel stable and not so sick or else his body really cannot acclimate to the drug anymore, even in small amounts, to keep it from having symptoms of wd.

 

So one of the ways this happens is by changing the doses of the drugs. To help the body settle down you pick a dose and don't change it until quite some time has passed, to see if you feel less bad and that 'less bad' is what we might call 'stable' and is how you can tell if the addition of the drug in a smaller amount than you were used to can calm wd syndrome down enough to taper off it eventually.

 

We try to get people to reinstate soon enough and at the proper dose to give them a chance to get stable. But they panic and see saw their dose up and down thinking they can find a dose that will make them feel better again, and the body can't do it. They want it to happen NOW, the body doesn't do it that way. I postulate he has had too many drug changes in too short a time and his body is reacting to changes made months ago.

 

Alto told him not to change the dose of his celexa to see if he can acclimate to a lower dose and you've just encouraged him to lower it, change it AGAIN. His doc wants to change it too but his solution is to go cold turkey. He is trying to struggle through his life and has no clue who to listen to: you, Alto or his doc.

 

I did not encourage him either way. I just tried to get him to see how either scenario might play out: stay on dose for maybe up to a year or go off altogether.

 

People get it in their heads these drugs are a poisonous toxin and they are NOT. They are something your body got used to taking and they can't be yanked suddenly away without making you really ill. And once you get ill from them, it is a hard road back to feeling better again.

 

Maybe I should just tell you both to read the KISS topic at the top of the Intro forum and stop wasting time explaining the concept over and over to people when a sticky post is right there for you to read. If you are suggesting/encouraging him to lower his dose, Lex, then you will have to be the one to support him through the consequences of that. Alto told him not to change his dose at all. You would do well not to call it a 'poison' either, that just adds an emotional charge to something better explained as 'withdrawal syndrome' which is what this board is all about.

 

Sometimes if someone explains things in depth to someone they can figure out a better course based on that information. That is what I am trying to do here and for the benefit of ALL who might read this thread.

 

And I forgot, Vonnegut Junky seemed to be urging a cold turkey approach too in her note above. Ok, but if DJ does that then she ought to be here supporting him through that if he chooses that course based on her input.

 

This is all tricky stuff, difficult to get right moreso because docs are not really on board with it. SA is a place where you can get peer support getting off ADs safely and help for you if you have gotten it all messed up and are now suffering withdrawal syndrome. We try not to make it worse but it is up to you what you do.

 

I keep forgetting about this thread, all of this is explained already here in the first post:

 

http://survivingantidepressants.org/index.php?/topic/1160-how-psychiatric-drugs-remodel-your-brain/#entry10415

[Christian]

Hey Djones. Are you doing ok?

[Djones1984]

I am not really ok chirstian. I have started lamictal a few months ago hoping to calm the cns down a bit but has helped a little I think going on and up has been rough and I still question it but the doctor I am seeing now is pretty knowlegable on withdrawl. At this point though when I hit the target dose of lamictal which I am pretty much there I am dropping the celexa all together.

 

It has been 3.5 years since the first taper and still have wicked akathesia. I am down to 1.5mg and been holding around that dose since December and not one thing has really changed for the better I see no point in prolonging the recovery by tapering the celexa for any given amount of time as I had akathesia on the full dose for years prior. I am than going to start an Aston taper off the .5mg of klonopin I need to get off this stuff if I have any pray of the akathesia going away.