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cannabis, THC or marijuana to ease withdrawal symptoms


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#73 oskcajga

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Posted 01 July 2015 - 11:26 AM

oskcajga, that doesnt sound outlandish, but is some truly heavy s***.  ive read about several experiences like that online before i considered trying it for myself years back, and the notion has stayed with me.  for myself, in withdrawal states, ive found that one big hit can do more damage (short or long term upset) than smaller successive hits---your giant hit was the maximum possible damage there, probably...just 2-3 seconds is enough time for your system to adjust a bit before further chemical inundation.

 

before i was in withdrawal, i took in way too much at once (more than ever before in my life, probably, of the strongest weed i had ever smoked and kept around because i loved its high THC register)...it was a homemade rig (and also a small 4/20 observance in the middle of the night), and i went into a state i had never even encountered before then, or after to that extent.  a new dimension, like i was inside a black hole.  i had a lot of crazy psych and medication experiences in my many years of being sick, but that was a new one, and supremely terrifying...it was beyond the experience of panic attacks or fear states or anything like that---it was a new dimension that was basically like a portal to hell.  and i was telling my friends that i was trying to keep myself closer to this end of it instead of letting my mind get sucked down into the vortex, because, whatever was there, i didnt have any confidence i could ever return.  it subsumed my entire field of vision, thought processes, emotions, and memory...essentially a spiritual experience except that the environment was utterly acidic.  it might have just been my own psyche---i was rather self-loathing in those days; maladaptive.

 

your statements should definitely give some notion of gravity to the people who would take withdrawal smoking casually, though i dont usually read of that anywhere on here.  i also wanted to say, i can definitely relate to a 12 hour long panic attack.  i had a 72 hour long (three solid days, my longest ever before withdrawal) because of geodon, an antipsychotic.  after like a day or two, i wrote my psychiatrist an emergency email.  he said NOT to reduce the dose, and to KEEP TAKING the medication.  lunacy.  i had a fit of laughing for 30 minutes---no pauses whatsoever.  i nearly passed out and my muscles were sore for days and days because of the contractions involved...the hardest and most ceaseless fit ive ever experienced.  i might have vomited, i dont even know anymore.  i had a 2-3 week long panic attack in the first few months of total withdrawal, but i had little rest periods in there (a few minutes a day, if i was lucky) so it wasnt the same as 72 straight hours of pounding.

 

drinking can also be a problem for me (tolerance got tanked in withdrawal, even before i tapered off the last few meds).  and i agree that its important to note that weed can cause the same kind of neurological dependency as antidepressants.  it has fewer side effects and greater benefits for many individuals, but it is a psychotropic substance---just like psych meds in that it musses around in our brains, and continual use does create a physical or even psychological dependency in people.  it can be very mild for some, but i had a friend who smoked at least once pretty much every day for a good many months (for anxiety and depression), and she had a debilitating withdrawal reaction when she was unable to get any for a few days.  she got really sick, and didnt previously know that it was addicting in that sense, but anything modulating your internal chemistry on a continual basis is bound to be capable of that.

 

i rarely smoke these days, as i rarely see the risk as being justified since it can touch off a less than ideal reaction that i cant always predict the potential for (and thus just avoid if i can).  but i do try to cope with the dystonia, dopamine crashing, or other symptoms with it on occasion, and it works like nothing else has for me (supplements, psych meds, foods, exercise, rest, etc).

 

------------------------

 

as for the other posts...scientists dont yet understand the architecture behind seizures, but some strains of weed have shown to help stave off or reduce the severity of many peoples seizures.  its a lot like the situation with 'belligerent' autistic kids.  i figure that most neurological issues are somewhat related, and since weed is a very multi-focal drug, it can influence the healing of a variety of situations.

 

 

hash oil can be created at home, though its a bit labor-intensive and also requires at least one small specialized item.  it can be a little complicated to refine properly, and youd still need CBD-predominate bud to start off with, and so i dont imagine its necessarily an option in limiting circumstances.  i also dont want to suggest potentially illegal ventures or procuring of paraphernalia in bulgaria.

 

 

weed couldnt really be patented (im not sure if new hybrid formulae can be---maybe only methodology), and thats part of why prohibition began in america after weed was legal for such a long time: there are ties to lobbying against the competition of hemps industrial applications (nothing to do with smoking) in addition to the temperance movement type ideology.

 

 

there are CBD-only pills available clinically in some places, but that is not really the same as a CBD-heavy or "CBD-only" marijuana dose.  isolating the CBD both reduces its effectiveness and also its reach---so you can minimize some of the potential side effects, but at the cost of efficacy or thoroughness.  isolating it can also have formerly unseen effects, positive or negative, because thats taking a fish out of water, essentially.

 

 

"synthetic marijuana" is basically satan and i dont advise even healthy recreational drug-lovers to try it.  terrible ingredients, terrible reactions, and also nothing like pot at all.  it was basically just marketed that way to fill a void created by the legal system, kind of like other dangerous drug switch-ups we observe when enforcement cracks down (or the boon in street sales of prescription medications---the legalized forms of generally illicit substances like amphetamines, opioids, etc).

 

 

so far as i understand, most pot-related incarcerations are due to the person holding over a certain amount (a lot of legislation revolves around escalating weight categories), or having paraphernalia around that can get them nailed as distributors, or crossing boundaries (like state or county lines, school zones, whatnot) with personal stashes or the aforementioned suspicious, framed, or truly entrepreneurial setups.  our jails are so full that we are releasing many small-time offenders, and some cops will let a small pot violation go if you arent being a d*** about it (though my experiences largely revolve around medical-legal states, and some areas are WAY less tolerant, in america and abroad).  sometimes they wont even confiscate what you have, though some are in a position of legal obligation they intend to uphold due to personal or social accountability.  pot-related stuff is a common add-on charge to make sentences more severe (or more likely), or to try to get otherwise uninteresting criminals off the streets for a while, so that is much more common than a marijuana-centric rap sheet in convicts not running a serious grow, transport, or sale operation.  they (the feds) really like to jail the medical marijuana doctors and cooperative managers when they attract more than just a small clientele, though, regardless of their level of legitimacy...  obama said hed be hands-off, but has the pattern of waffling on his hardline issues (not a political statement, just a relevant point, and largely a product of a multi-party system of government).

 

 

theres a nice variety of discussion in here; im glad people are hitting so many different angles of the issue, and sharing their positive and negative stories.  i guess i had unfollowed this, so...pardon the catch-up.

 

Thank you for this well articulated and interesting response.  I suppose that you and myself are in the "I've had a panic attack that lasted longer than 10 hours" club.  Your experience with the antipsycotic sounds similar to what happened when I smoked the marijuana.  You made a lot of good, interesting points that I can't really respond to in one response, but I read your full post and found it very interesting.  I'll try to respond to them in the future when I'm feeling a bit better.

 

Thanks again.


8 Words of Wisdom about Adverse Effects and Psychiatric Drug Withdrawal Syndrome:

 

1.  Please do learn about this condition by thoroughly reading 1) Dr. Healy's website and SurvivingAntidepressants.

2.  Please read books like: 1) Anatomy of An Epidemic and 2) Mad in America.

3.  Success Stories do exist.

4.  Please be extremely cautious about reinstatements, recreational drugs, supplements.  Even low doses can complicate matters.

5.  Transfer all financial assets into your own name (hint: relationships end).  Do not spend money wastefully.  Keep your job as long as possible.

6.  Psychiatric drug "withdrawal" and adverse effects are serious neurological reactions to powerful "drugs" - do not take this condition lightly.

7.  These conditions almost never recognized by any medical doctors - hospitalization/appointments can be futile/potentially injurious.

8.  PSSD, anhedonia (no emotions), memory loss, brain zaps, etc are scary - don't worsen them by taking more drugs, supplements, and medications.

 

Stimulant free since September 20th, 2014; SSRI free since September 1st, 2013


#74 Iamfine

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Posted 01 July 2015 - 02:03 PM

I'm surprised to find this thread here and even more surprised how many of you think it's okay. I used to smoke weed myself and it worked better for me than any of my psych meds ever did. I could smoke it once and feel better for two or three days after. I agree with an earlier post though, if you haven't experienced it before starting to taper this is definitely not the time to try, there are way too many responses, some people get super paranoid on it. I quit because I want to go back to a completely chemical free natural life.
My Story
In 2014-15 I tapered off Lithium 1200 mg (ct), Lexapro 40 mg, Lamictal 150 mg, Seroquel 500 mg, Klonopin 3 mg (ct), and had a short stint with Viibryd that lasted about 2 weeks. I also had about a month on Brintellix during this time.
Currently taking 60 mg prozac, 100 mg Seroquel (ri 8/4/16), 3 x 20 mg Ritalin, 2 x 0.5 Klonopin, and 120 mg Geodon. Will finish tapering off Geodon next.
Psych drugs tried: Prozac, Paxil, Wellbutrin, Effexor, Celexa, Lamictal, Lexapro, Viibryd, Brintellix, Pristiq, Zoloft, Seruquel, Zyprexa, Geodon, Abilify, Latuda, Ritalin, Adderall, Valium, Klonopin.

#75 InvisibleUnless

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Posted 01 July 2015 - 04:54 PM

i feel like i have to note...weed is not any less 'natural' or 'chemical-composed' than any (unadulterated/organic/unprocessed) food youd eat or drinks you might have, like water or juice or whatnot.  i dont think you should feel a need to use such a substance if its not to your benefit, or not to your preference, i just dont feel comfortable with potentially/ambiguously categorizing weed as 'unnatural' or 'involving chemicals in ways every other natural ingestant does not' in a thread that might be informing posters about its qualities.

 

also, some central human foods and drinks, like breastmilk for babies, have cannabinoids in them.  this means they affect the brain in some of the ways pot does, but it is not the same as toking a joint or eating a brownie or anything like that, even if they can cause some similar reactions.

 

im with you on how smoking a bit here and there would help me more than any of the psych meds ever did, even for anxiety (which the wrong kinds of weed can kick into high gear).  but now that i dont feel anxious/depressed all the time like i used to, i like to reserve it for spiritual purposes when not taking it solely to combat withdrawal symptoms.  i think it can be a great move to distance yourself from it, so i hope you dont take my addition as calling into question your personal decision.  and woah, i just now read your med history...we have a fair amount in common, more than some members on here.


from 2005-2012, i spent 7 years taking 17 different psychotropic medications covering several classes.  i would be taking 3-7 medications at a time, and 6 out of the 17 medications listed below were maxed or overmaxed in clinical dosage before i moved on to trying the next unhelpful cocktail.
 
antidepressants (SSRIs, SNRIs, NDRIs, tetracyclics): zoloft, wellbutrin, effexor, lexapro, prozac, cymbalta, remeron
antipsychotics (atypical): abilify, zyprexa, risperdal, geodon
sleep aids (benzos, off-label antidepressants & antipsychotics, hypnotics): seroquel, temazepam, trazodone, ambien
anxiolytics: buspar
anticonvulsants: topamax
 
i tapered off all psychotropics from late 2011 through early 2013, one by one.  for all 5 years since quitting, ive been cycling through severe, disabling withdrawal symptoms spanning the gamut of the serious, less serious, and rather worrisome side effects of these assorted medications.  previous cross-tapering and medication or dosage changes had also caused undiagnosed withdrawal symptoms.
 
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#76 oskcajga

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Posted 01 July 2015 - 05:21 PM

i feel like i have to note...weed is not any less 'natural' or 'chemical-composed' than any (unadulterated/organic/unprocessed) food youd eat or drinks you might have, like water or juice or whatnot.  i dont think you should feel a need to use such a substance if its not to your benefit, or not to your preference, i just dont feel comfortable with potentially/ambiguously categorizing weed as 'unnatural' or 'involving chemicals in ways every other natural ingestant does not' in a thread that might be informing posters about its qualities.

 

also, some central human foods and drinks, like breastmilk for babies, have cannabinoids in them.  this means they affect the brain in some of the ways pot does, but it is not the same as toking a joint or eating a brownie or anything like that, even if they can cause some similar reactions.

 

im with you on how smoking a bit here and there would help me more than any of the psych meds ever did, even for anxiety (which the wrong kinds of weed can kick into high gear).  but now that i dont feel anxious/depressed all the time like i used to, i like to reserve it for spiritual purposes when not taking it solely to combat withdrawal symptoms.  i think it can be a great move to distance yourself from it, so i hope you dont take my addition as calling into question your personal decision.  and woah, i just now read your med history...we have a fair amount in common, more than some members on here.

 

Not to be a pain, but one quick factual correction is that there are cannaboid receptor all over the central nervous system, but that's much different from THC which is one of the main active ingredients in marijuana.  TCH acts upon the cannabanoid receptors to produce its effect.

 

Marijuana is definitely "natural", and so is cocaine, heroin, alcohol, nicotine, hashish, ephedrine, magic mushrooms, etc.  One of the reasons I think that pharmaceutical drugs affect our brains so much more profoundly than heroin, or cocaine, for example, is that the SSRIS and antipsycotics act VERY SPECIFICALLY on one mechanism.  This specificity results in profound neuroadaptations, which may or may not actually reverse completely.  Moreover, there is no evolutionary defense mechanism built into the brain for strong seritonergic or dopanergic drugs, because no naturally occurring compounds exist, so our ancestors, or even DISTANT ancestors (e.g., monkies) never happened upon a cymbalta, or a halidol in the natural environment - and therefore never developed any sort of defense against it.  The closest naturally occuring compounds are things like st. johns wort, or valarian root, etc, which have much MUCH lower affinity for sertionergic and GABA mechanisms than their new pharmaceutical counterparts.

 

This is just one reason I think that people can FULLY recover from heroin abuse within a couple of months but cannot recover from antispycotic, benzos, or ssris in as short of a time. 

 

If I had to suggest to someone who never was exposed to SSRIS or antipsycotics, what to do - 9/10 I'd recommend pot, alcohol, maybe a little cocaine here and there.  Especially if they were INSISTANT upon using drugs to cope.  If you're going to use a drug, better off using the natural ones - RARELY does a person not fully recover.  That being said, I wouldn't recommend synthetic derivatives, such as crack coacaine, amphetamines, oxycodon, cigarettes.  I'd recommend tobacco, but not cigarettes because of all the pharmaceutical garbage they throw into these things.

 

It's really disturbing and messed up that in the USA and parts of Europe we're so ANTI DRUGS, but have no trouble giving kids strong amphetamines, antidepressants, and antipsycotics.  The anti drug movement in the USA is foolish and completely out of line when you consider that the LEGAL drugs are PROFOUNDLY more dangerous than SOME (not all) of their "illegal" counterparts.  Some illegal drugs need to be illegal, such as ecstacy, amphetamines, crack cocain, because they really are terrible drugs and can cause just as much brain damage as the prescribed pharmaceuticals.  But naturally occuring drugs, such as cocaine, nicotine, alcohol, heroin, etc, are not that hard to recover from IMO.  People have been using low doses of these chemicals for THOUSANDS upon THOUSANDS of years without any ill effect.  Obviously, if you shoot up heroin IV you're going to get pretty messed up, but that's not exactly how nature intended us to use it. 

 

If they were to legalize all drugs all of a sudden, I doubt pharmaceutical sales would be as high as they are now.  Who needs an antidepressant when you can do a little pot, drink a little, do a little cocaine here and there?  The key is to not be moronic and abuse these drugs.  Some people are just not very good at controlling themselves and just overdo everything.  I think this is a very AMERICAN attitude.  We tend to overdo things, drugs, sex, money, power, etc.  I'm not sure why, but it's stupid and doesn't make much sense.  I see this culture all throughout college campuses, and highschool campuses. 

 

So that's my opinion on the subject.  I'm not ANTI DRUG by any stretch of the imagination --- but I am anti drug during SSRI or antipsycotic withdrawals.

 

Love and hugs.


8 Words of Wisdom about Adverse Effects and Psychiatric Drug Withdrawal Syndrome:

 

1.  Please do learn about this condition by thoroughly reading 1) Dr. Healy's website and SurvivingAntidepressants.

2.  Please read books like: 1) Anatomy of An Epidemic and 2) Mad in America.

3.  Success Stories do exist.

4.  Please be extremely cautious about reinstatements, recreational drugs, supplements.  Even low doses can complicate matters.

5.  Transfer all financial assets into your own name (hint: relationships end).  Do not spend money wastefully.  Keep your job as long as possible.

6.  Psychiatric drug "withdrawal" and adverse effects are serious neurological reactions to powerful "drugs" - do not take this condition lightly.

7.  These conditions almost never recognized by any medical doctors - hospitalization/appointments can be futile/potentially injurious.

8.  PSSD, anhedonia (no emotions), memory loss, brain zaps, etc are scary - don't worsen them by taking more drugs, supplements, and medications.

 

Stimulant free since September 20th, 2014; SSRI free since September 1st, 2013


#77 InvisibleUnless

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Posted 01 July 2015 - 07:08 PM

corrections are always appreciated, and i was perhaps too unspecific for the content of this thread, just as i was trying to avoid with my comment on the preceding post.  there are multiple types of cannabinoid receptors (very likely more than just the two spoken of most often, C1 and C2), which respond to various different input.  food items can have cannabinoids in them, substances that agonize (or break down into agonists) for cannabinoid receptors can influence our natural regulation through them, and non-food introduction of structures into our body, ala smoking weed, can also influence receptor states.

 

THC is one of many cannabinoids found in marijuana, and while each cannabinoid might have different binding preferences or effects in other ways, pot is not differentiated in biology from other substances that contain cannabinoids, aside from noting its particular assortment compared to the assortments offered in other ingestables.  these cannabinoid receptors are found in many places, and regulate tons of stuff similarly to what we see in receptors like serotonin or dopamine.

 

that, as we seem to agree, is one of the severe dangers of artificial substances that act directly on receptor sites---SSRIs and the like focus with abnormal discrimination and with unnatural balance of impact, which means that they can bring about positive results in one or two areas while throwing the rest into chaos, or at least unbalance.  (antidepressants of any class, and most especially antipsychotics, involve more than just one or two receptor types, but there are various reasons for that scope and its not as important to get into.  just wanted to mention they are not SUPER specific, though far more specific than natural compounds which are more complex and rich.)  and thats not to say that natural products containing cannabinoids inherently entail a balanced interaction, but items like marijuana have a carefully tailored combination of more chemicals and interactive elements than science has even thus far documented which serve to alleviate the negative effects potentially encountered with overspecificity of impact.

 

it doesnt make weed (or even breastmilk) "safe", but it makes them more balanced than a synthetic approach, and is a part of why i said 'synthetic weed' is a really, really bad idea.

 

i think it would be misrepresentative to say that marijuana is 'as natural' as heroin or cocaine.  heroin and cocaine are taken from natural sources and refined through potentially natural processes, but the end product is not something you can just pick up off the ground.  on the other hand, weed flower (bud) is best smoked when it has been dried, but the drying does not change the chemical constituency in the same ways as refining the cocoa plant or extracting and refining opium from opium crops like poppies; if you went into a wild field of marijuana and then threw a weed plant you uprooted into a fire, you could get high.  many of these drugs (which have both a clinical and recreational past spanning thousands of years) act on specific ranges/portions of our nervous system in ways that augment or have traits in common with other forms of ingestion (food and drink), exercise, climate controlled environments (sauna, ice bath, etc), the induction of trance states, etc.  it doesnt mean they are harmless or good to subject ones system to, but they are not generally introducing artificial structures into our bodies in the way unnatural chemical compounds would, ala pharmaceuticals designed to mimic natural substances to evoke similar reactions.

 

you have some great observations there about our culture, and i totally agree on so many points.  i can elucidate some things, as well.  we ban 'natural' drugs and legalize 'unnatural' ones because corporations (who fund the government and regulatory agencies) can much more easily control the methods of production, and also systems of distribution, for unnatural drugs.  anyone can grow shrooms, and thus they are illegal.  cooking LSD takes some knowhow and tools.  making an antipsychotic would be a far more complex and expensive undertaking, in terms of materials and technology.  america is all about having the strongest monopoly you can, and gouging people everywhere you can think to.  you can notice that the growth of hegemonic industry and hierarchical capitalism in america has correlated directly with the criminalization of formerly common and relatively easily produced items of interest, like weed and opium.

 

you can also notice that if we force people to buy medications that are less effective and more expensive (as well as state-recommended AND state-subsidized), the recreational or otherwise superior (in efficacy) aspects of the now-criminalized means make the sales of recreational materials and activities that much easier to control and extract significant profits from.  if you grow some weed in your backyard and find pleasure in observing the constellations and blowing grasses, you are not paying your dues!  we need you to buy a car, and gas, and movie tickets, and popcorn, and soda, and cigarettes for before and after the show.  we need you to go get fast food instead of picking the apple off the tree in your backyard.  your undying allegiance, if not voluntary, will be forced through attrition by denying your capacity to easily or comfortably take care of your own needs.  (this, ironically, pits the means and ends of laissez-faire capitalism against the purported political agenda of rightists that decry the dependence of our population on outside sources of aid and support---fiscal conservatives.)

 

also, i feel like our penchant for things like binge drinking, drug abuse addiction, and even things like 'shopping addiction' or video game obsessions revolve around the supremely unnatural state of our social environment.  we are in artificially constructed dwellings and workplaces and markets made out of fake materials and buying/eating fake food items.  we toil in a completely abnormal and unnatural system of work-wage returns and activities, and this is highly emotionally damaging.  we do not adjust well, a lot of the time, and to the same degree we unbalance our natural instincts and abilities, we seek out a method of coping that can deal with that severity of disconnect.

 

on the other hand, debauchery is pretty much common to all cultures throughout time, and the ability for a society to appropriately sanction and take advantage of debauchery is what differentiates a failing classist structure (like late rome) from a more egalitarian, balance-maintaining culture like many tribal structures.  we think maybe globalism brings us closer to humanity, but we are often missing the human/animal soul in the vastness---our historical and evolutionary focus has been on our immediate environment and tribal interactions...all notions of 'global thinking' or acting are just as classist and limited as our formerly segmented social structure.  we cannot conceptualize on that kind of scale and hope to be both effective and fulfilled.

 

i think there is founded fear about sudden legalization of things, like making all drugs legal overnight, or making our country an anarchist state instead of a governed country.  people take time to adjust, and our entire culture is centered around policies and ideologies that make more mutualistic and natural arrangements both demonized and uneducated.  the mastery of the elements and harmony that our ancestors had stemmed from cultural tradition just as much as genetic knowledge---we cant expect human animals to know how to be human animals without a society to enable their self-understanding, and when deprived of a natural environment and a natural society to teach us, we feel more disturbed and lost than ever before.

 

i hope this doesnt register as being too far off topic...these discussions are pretty relevant to how we conceptualize and treat medicative substances like marijuana.  oh, also, heroin is water-soluble whereas psych meds tend to be lipid-soluble.  that greatly changes the game when it comes to things like tissue growth/storage, dependency, and withdrawal.


from 2005-2012, i spent 7 years taking 17 different psychotropic medications covering several classes.  i would be taking 3-7 medications at a time, and 6 out of the 17 medications listed below were maxed or overmaxed in clinical dosage before i moved on to trying the next unhelpful cocktail.
 
antidepressants (SSRIs, SNRIs, NDRIs, tetracyclics): zoloft, wellbutrin, effexor, lexapro, prozac, cymbalta, remeron
antipsychotics (atypical): abilify, zyprexa, risperdal, geodon
sleep aids (benzos, off-label antidepressants & antipsychotics, hypnotics): seroquel, temazepam, trazodone, ambien
anxiolytics: buspar
anticonvulsants: topamax
 
i tapered off all psychotropics from late 2011 through early 2013, one by one.  for all 5 years since quitting, ive been cycling through severe, disabling withdrawal symptoms spanning the gamut of the serious, less serious, and rather worrisome side effects of these assorted medications.  previous cross-tapering and medication or dosage changes had also caused undiagnosed withdrawal symptoms.
 
brainpan addlepation


#78 westcoast

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Posted 02 July 2015 - 03:05 AM

My pot ups and downs:

 

I got relief, mainly, from smoked marijuana after my final CT of ADs, but it didn't fix me. It took the edge off when I was overwhelmed with thoughts about problems and unable to solve them all at once. I didn't attempt to go to sleep without it but still augmented with OTC sleep aids or benadryl prettty often.

I did not get high from pot when using it in that condition but once or twice. It turned off the anxious thoughts, but didn't add a proper high. I've almost forgotten what that feels like and don't care, either. ...

 

I also experienced deep paranoia on it in the middle of my multi-year psych drug period.

 

I've seen studies that say addiction can occur but I've never known anyone who identified as an addict. I stopped using it because I didn't feel like going to the dispensary one night, and that was it.

The CBD oil that Indigo's mentioned is a different drug. I've never had it, but a friend who wisely avoided prescribed opioids after a knee surgery this year bought some at a dispensary, and said it worked--it let him fall asleep.
 

(One thing I take issue with in this thread is the tobacco mention. Once an addict, you might never quit. Some people experience a brief dreamy euphoria upon first use, and one study found that they're the ones who stay hooked. I'm one. The euphoria thing peters out and from then on you smoke because cravings are mind-control unrelenting demons. I started when I was 15. A guy on the beach wanted something to roll some hash in and used that. (I more or less went to Ridgemont High.) That one event had me smoking a pack a day within a month. I almost quit, but a store sold single cigarettes, and I chipped my way back up to packs, then cartons, and it took 8 years before I managed quitting. With help from my co-workers I CT'd 30 years ago. Then, 6 years ago, in iatrogenic mania I smoked a bowl of it from a butt left by a friend. I got the euphoria, and within a month I was smoking over a pack a day and distraught over it. I will say this--the feeling is not like an opioid or pot or speed (legal or otherwise). It's stupendous, indescribable, and short-lived (minutes, not even 15 of them). It doesn't work again until the next day. You don't do anything--you just sit and feel it. I couldn't walk properly without holding onto things. I've never used MDMA or Ecstasy; maybe it's like that, but if it were no one would stop using Ecstasy for a minute. I managed to switch to vaping with a major brand of cartridges, but that's little comfort. No one knows the harms of it, and it's a big expense. Until I restarted, having quit was one of my most wonderful facts of life. It meant the world to me, and I had no doubt that taking one puff would drop me back into addict status. Nonetheless I did it while doctorized-crazy and here I am again. It's the most horrific drug on earth, but no government has the guts to ban it.)

 

(JanCarol NOTE: font size and color changed for ease of reading)


2009: Cancer hospital said I had adjustment disorder because I thought they were doing it wrong. Their headshrinker prescribed Effexor, and my life set on a new course. I didn't know what was ahead, like a passenger on Disneyland's Matterhorn, smiling and waving as it climbs...clink, clink, clink.

2010: Post surgical accidental Effexor discontinuation by nurses, masked by intravenous Dilaudid. (The car is balanced at the top of the track.) I get home, pop a Vicodin, and ...

Whooosh...down, down, down, down, down...goes the trajectory of my life, up goes my mood and tendency to think everything is a good idea.
2012: After the bipolar jig was up, now a walking bag of unrelated symptoms, I went crazy on Daytrana (the Ritalin skin patch by Noven), because ADHD was a perfect fit for a bag of unrelated symptoms. I was prescribed Effexor for the nervousness of it, and things got neurological. An EEG showed enough activity to warrant an epilepsy diagnosis rather than non-epileptic ("psychogenic") seizures.

:o 2013-2014: Quit everything and got worse. I probably went through DAWS: dopamine agonist withdrawal syndrome. I drank to not feel, but I felt a lot: dread, fear, regret, grief: an utter sense of total loss of everything worth breathing about, for almost two years.

I was not suicidal but I wanted to be dead, at least dead to the experience of my own brain and body.

2015: I  began to recover after adding virgin coconut oil and organic grass-fed fed butter to a cup of instant coffee in the morning.

I did it hoping for mental acuity and better memory. After ten days of that, I was much better, mood-wise. Approximately neutral.

And, I experienced drowsiness. I could sleep. Not exactly happy, I did 30 days on Wellbutrin, because it had done me no harm in the past. 

I don't have the DAWS mood or state of mind. It never feel like doing anything if it means standing up.

In fact, I don't especially like moving. I'm a brain with a beanbag body.   :unsure:


#79 Katamari

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Posted 05 July 2015 - 05:20 AM

Interesting topic!

After coming off of venlafaxine I got huge help from marijuana. I had really bad nausea and pot took it away completely. I was able to eat food again! It also gave much needed laughter in my life that had positive long term effects as well. 
After six months off, I got so sensitive to about anything, so I haven't tried pot for a while. I've got these depersonalization attacks lately, and there is a risk that pot may trigger more of those. Too bad. I'm also only 25 years old so there is a small consern that I'm developing some kind of mental illness, psychosis or something, since my brain chemistry seems to be upside down already.


My history:
Escitalopram 5-10mg 2006-2008

Fluoxetine 40mg 2008-2010
Venlafaxine 150mg 2010 - December 2014
I tapered off very quickly:
1. week 75mg
2. week 35,5mg
3. week 17mg
4. week 8,5mg
5. week none


#80 oskcajga

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Posted 05 July 2015 - 08:42 AM

Interesting topic!

After coming off of venlafaxine I got huge help from marijuana. I had really bad nausea and pot took it away completely. I was able to eat food again! It also gave much needed laughter in my life that had positive long term effects as well. 
After six months off, I got so sensitive to about anything, so I haven't tried pot for a while. I've got these depersonalization attacks lately, and there is a risk that pot may trigger more of those. Too bad. I'm also only 25 years old so there is a small consern that I'm developing some kind of mental illness, psychosis or something, since my brain chemistry seems to be upside down already.

 

There is quite a bit of clinical evidence that demonstrates a psychosis will resolve itself if you just wait it out over a 3 month to five year period.  I wouldn't term psychosis an "illness", as there's no diagnostic test for it.  It's just a behavioral issue that can be qualified by some specialists - but it's not that much different than, say, a manic burst, or depressive episode.  It's just part of being human.

 

If you're hypersensitive, avoid drugs completely.  There's not much I've found to help me during hypersensitivity.  A good diet, exercise, and stress free life are the best ways to get you through this period.

 

I had a psychotic episode of sorts, where I was very disconnected from reality and saw the world differently.  It lasted the better part of a year or so, but now it's quite manageable.


8 Words of Wisdom about Adverse Effects and Psychiatric Drug Withdrawal Syndrome:

 

1.  Please do learn about this condition by thoroughly reading 1) Dr. Healy's website and SurvivingAntidepressants.

2.  Please read books like: 1) Anatomy of An Epidemic and 2) Mad in America.

3.  Success Stories do exist.

4.  Please be extremely cautious about reinstatements, recreational drugs, supplements.  Even low doses can complicate matters.

5.  Transfer all financial assets into your own name (hint: relationships end).  Do not spend money wastefully.  Keep your job as long as possible.

6.  Psychiatric drug "withdrawal" and adverse effects are serious neurological reactions to powerful "drugs" - do not take this condition lightly.

7.  These conditions almost never recognized by any medical doctors - hospitalization/appointments can be futile/potentially injurious.

8.  PSSD, anhedonia (no emotions), memory loss, brain zaps, etc are scary - don't worsen them by taking more drugs, supplements, and medications.

 

Stimulant free since September 20th, 2014; SSRI free since September 1st, 2013


#81 JanCarol

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Posted 05 July 2015 - 09:38 AM

Oskajga:

 

 

Marijuana is definitely "natural", and so is cocaine,
If I had to suggest to someone who never was exposed to SSRIS or antipsycotics, what to do - 9/10 I'd recommend pot, alcohol, maybe a little cocaine here and there.  Especially if they were INSISTANT upon using drugs to cope.  If you're going to use a drug, better off using the natural ones 

 

Here is one where we differ.  Cocaine, the white powder, is synthesized from a natural substance, as is heroin.  If however, just the opium were used, or just the coca leaf were chewed - as is done in the indigenous culture - that would be more beneficial than the powdered, distilled, refined, potentized extract of the plant. 

 

I sometimes make coca tea instead of black tea.  It is a mild stimulant, pleasant, tasty.  The leaves are legal in US and Australia.  I can recommend the coca tea for a mild antidepressant, or stimulant.  However, there can be - as with any stimulant - backlash for someone in withdrawal.

 

Cocaine is too dangerous and expensive to recommend to ANYone - even someone who is a "cleanskin" and never been drugged before.  Maybe especially them.  The difference between cocaine and crack cocaine is minor - it's just distilled and intensified AGAIN.

 

This is turning into a much better discussion than it was a year ago.


"Easy, easy - just go easy and you'll finish." - Hawaiian Kapuna

 

Holding is hard work, holding is a blessing. Give your brain time to heal before you try again.

 

My suggestions are not medical advice, you are in charge of your own medical choices.

 

A lifetime of being prescribed antidepressants that caused problems (30 years in total). At age 35 flipped to "bipolar," but was not diagnosed for 5 years. Started my journey in Midwest United States. Crossed the Pacific for love and hope; currently living in Australia.   CT Seroquel 25 mg some time in 2013.   Tapered Reboxetine 4 mg Oct 2013 to Sept 2014 = GONE (3 years on Reboxetine).     Tapered Lithium 900 to 475 MG (alternating with the SNRI) Jan 2014 - Nov 2014, tapered Lithium 475 mg Jan 2015 -  Feb 2016 = GONE (10 years  on Lithium).  Many mistakes in dry cutting dosages were made.

 

Currently Lithium Orotate 1.67 mg only.  I will re-evaluate this supplement in 2017.

 

I have been psych drug FREE since 1 Feb 2016!


#82 JanCarol

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Posted 05 July 2015 - 10:31 PM

Interesting from WestCoast:

 

(One thing I take issue with in this thread is the tobacco mention. Once an addict, you might never quit. Some people experience a brief dreamy euphoria upon first use, and one study found that they're the ones who stay hooked. I'm one. The euphoria thing peters out and from then on you smoke because cravings are mind-control unrelenting demons. I started when I was 15. A guy on the beach wanted something to roll some hash in and used that. (I more or less went to Ridgemont High.) That one event had me smoking a pack a day within a month. I almost quit, but a store sold single cigarettes, and I chipped my way back up to packs, then cartons, and it took 8 years before I managed quitting. With help from my co-workers I CT'd 30 years ago. Then, 6 years ago, in iatrogenic mania I smoked a bowl of it from a butt left by a friend. I got the euphoria, and within a month I was smoking over a pack a day and distraught over it. I will say this--the feeling is not like an opioid or pot or speed (legal or otherwise). It's stupendous, indescribable, and short-lived (minutes, not even 15 of them). It doesn't work again until the next day. You don't do anything--you just sit and feel it. I couldn't walk properly without holding onto things. I've never used MDMA or Ecstasy; maybe it's like that, but if it were no one would stop using Ecstasy for a minute. I managed to switch to vaping with a major brand of cartridges, but that's little comfort. No one knows the harms of it, and it's a big expense. Until I restarted, having quit was one of my most wonderful facts of life. It meant the world to me, and I had no doubt that taking one puff would drop me back into addict status. Nonetheless I did it while doctorized-crazy and here I am again. It's the most horrific drug on earth, but no government has the guts to ban it.)

(NOTE: font size and color changed for ease of reading)

 

If you poll a room full of "severe mental patients" - and often 12 steppers too! - somewhere between 65-85% of them will be smoking.

 

When I quit smoking (5 years free of a 10 year habit - that I started when I was 40 and depressed!) I learned a few things.

 

The feeling you describe on the first cig - yes, I had that.  It was a buzzy kind of uplifting sort of thing that could bring my brain out of a funk.  The feeling was short lived, and I lived to smoke for 10 years after that cig. It is nothing like ecstasy!  I can't begin to describe that one - and the last hit of that was decades ago now, so the memory is dim.

 

When I did my research, I found a lot of information about the mild antidepressant effect of cigarettes, and the way the tobacco bound to the serotonin receptors.  The compounds found in cigarettes are not natural tobacco.  Not even in "Native Spirit" cigarettes, which claim "all natural no additives."  Sure, there are no additives, but the blend of tobacco is designed, sprayed, and blended for a certain effect - one which you would not get from smoking straight leaf.  Cigarettes here are rated by how much nicotine per cigarette.  I think it is criminal that this information is not available in the US (sorry, I don't remember the numbers, nor am I about to go looking!).

 

Anyhow, when the light came on about the serotonin, and I looked around me at group therapy and around the Center for Behaving Yourself, as well as all of my friends struggling with mental and emotional issues - it made sense.  Here was a quick little antidepressant they could take without a script, that was short acting (and naturally, addicting).  After my own experience with tobacco, I have become more compassionate towards the users of it.

 

If you have to use it, if you're addicted and cannot come off - vaping (e-cig) is the way to go.  Hot combustion releases the more noxious fumes in tobacco smoke; there is no combustion in e-cigs,   Oddly, vape tobacco cartridges are illegal in Australia, fearing that kiddies will have a new doorway to the habit.  You can buy flavoured "shiksa" cartridges, and some herbal ones which claim they have an "effect" - but to me, cherry and blueberry or vanilla flavored vapes would be more attractive to kids?

 

Some studies done here in Australia (Western Australia, IIRC) shows that the long term damage of cigs is REDUCED by e-cigs.  Not eliminated, but reduced.  The industry is petitioning Australia to take the e-cigs as an interim way to quit for folks.  I do see e-cigs used at community theatre/stage productions (no fire in the hall!), and you can get the pens at the "head shops" - but the tobacco cartridges are not available here.

 

While I'm immensely glad I quit - it was the beginning of my journey to "take charge," I feel compassion for anyone trapped in that 5 minute trap.  Be kind to yourself - if you're vaping, you have already improved your lot.


"Easy, easy - just go easy and you'll finish." - Hawaiian Kapuna

 

Holding is hard work, holding is a blessing. Give your brain time to heal before you try again.

 

My suggestions are not medical advice, you are in charge of your own medical choices.

 

A lifetime of being prescribed antidepressants that caused problems (30 years in total). At age 35 flipped to "bipolar," but was not diagnosed for 5 years. Started my journey in Midwest United States. Crossed the Pacific for love and hope; currently living in Australia.   CT Seroquel 25 mg some time in 2013.   Tapered Reboxetine 4 mg Oct 2013 to Sept 2014 = GONE (3 years on Reboxetine).     Tapered Lithium 900 to 475 MG (alternating with the SNRI) Jan 2014 - Nov 2014, tapered Lithium 475 mg Jan 2015 -  Feb 2016 = GONE (10 years  on Lithium).  Many mistakes in dry cutting dosages were made.

 

Currently Lithium Orotate 1.67 mg only.  I will re-evaluate this supplement in 2017.

 

I have been psych drug FREE since 1 Feb 2016!


#83 InvisibleUnless

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Posted 05 July 2015 - 11:56 PM

i wanted to add that vaping alters the toxic profile of cigarettes, partly in eliminating the actual combustion of materials, but is not really a 'cigarettes lite'.  the toxic profile of vaped nicotine products often contains higher concentrations or intake of some chemicals, and might even include chemicals that 'traditional' cigarettes do not have.  as there arent any real 'long term' studies of its overall effects because its such a new phenomenon in terms of pronounced commercial usage, i would express a similar concern for vaping as smoking proper.  i do think it can be a helpful between-step, and possibly a less damaging alternative in some ways, but you cant go a truly natural route in that realm.

 

that is, cartridges are inherently trademarked chemical suspension recipes, whereas vaping unadulterated herbs or other plants (like marijuana bud or other potential intoxicants/stimulants/relaxants) involves the natural plant in question and nothing more.  you can roll natural/chemically untreated/organic tobacco into your own cigarettes, or smoke it from a pipe, and have a better idea of what you are putting into your body as compared to vaping cartridges.  its not necessarily healthier, i am just meaning to point out that there is a give and take in any situation, and qualifying something as being overall 'better' for you is potentially misleading wording for people who do not remember to consider the costs of each method.  for instance, weed has localized and also systemic cancer-preventing/cancer-fighting capabilities, but that doesnt mean that it doesnt or couldnt increase your risk of certain diseases, including certain kinds of cancers; the body is more complicated than that, especially with the variety we see in the administration of substances like tobacco or pot.

 

its very interesting that cartridge sales are so restricted some places.  id imagine that is at least partly political.  some ecig companies are funded by the mainline tobacco industry (to keep the fight in both angles of the situation), but some are up-and-comers that were basically designed to serve the population in ways and places that normal cigarettes cannot, given recent legislation that is pretty restrictive of smoking locations in america and perhaps other places (as well as the ever-present 'sin tax' that might be partly avoided through the repackaging of tobacco consumption as vaping).

 

the ties between depressed/anxious people, struggling addicts, institutionalized patients on psych meds, and cigarette usage are quite relevant.  i do not fully understand it right now, especially not being a tobacco user myself, but studies show a number of interesting links, one of which JanCarol mentioned.  i havent read on it in a while and now isnt the time to brush up, but if anyone else wants to volunteer some collected thoughts, i think itd be pertinent in here.


from 2005-2012, i spent 7 years taking 17 different psychotropic medications covering several classes.  i would be taking 3-7 medications at a time, and 6 out of the 17 medications listed below were maxed or overmaxed in clinical dosage before i moved on to trying the next unhelpful cocktail.
 
antidepressants (SSRIs, SNRIs, NDRIs, tetracyclics): zoloft, wellbutrin, effexor, lexapro, prozac, cymbalta, remeron
antipsychotics (atypical): abilify, zyprexa, risperdal, geodon
sleep aids (benzos, off-label antidepressants & antipsychotics, hypnotics): seroquel, temazepam, trazodone, ambien
anxiolytics: buspar
anticonvulsants: topamax
 
i tapered off all psychotropics from late 2011 through early 2013, one by one.  for all 5 years since quitting, ive been cycling through severe, disabling withdrawal symptoms spanning the gamut of the serious, less serious, and rather worrisome side effects of these assorted medications.  previous cross-tapering and medication or dosage changes had also caused undiagnosed withdrawal symptoms.
 
brainpan addlepation


#84 JanCarol

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Posted 06 July 2015 - 10:16 PM

I just read that tobacco can CHANGE (reduce) the uptake of neuroleptic drugs!  O - M - G !

 

 

TEN BIGGEST MISTAKES PSYCHIATRISTS MAKE, from:  http://thelastpsychi..._2.html#c040722

 

3. Ignore smoking cessation

or at least make it a secondary outcome.  Also applies to soda/juice/calorie reduction. 

This may seem trivial.  It’s not—after the treatment of the initial presenting acute symptoms and treating drug and alcohol abuse, this is more important than almost anything in psychiatry.  The logic is as follows: 

1. Smoking is obviously and severely detrimental to one’s health, arguably more damaging than hypertension and depression combined.  Its effect on life expectancy rivals, well, arsenic.

2.  It is an addiction, so it is psychiatry’s business. 

3.  It is highly comorbid with psychiatric disorders, and may be a relative symptom of them.  (For example: half of all people who commit suicide smoke.) 

4.  Smoking itself has a significant impact on other medications (e.g. did you know it reduces Haldol by half?)

5.  What the hell else are you doing with the session?   Especially in the “maintenance” phase of psychiatric treatment (where symptoms are relatively controlled, etc). 

All of this applies equally to soda consumption or even diet in general. Drinking 2 liters of soda a day may not seem like a psychiatric issue, but most of the medications used have the propensity to increase appetite, and excess eating, smoking, soda drinking are hardly psychologically meaningless behaviors.  If your psychiatrist asks you to keep a mood chart or teaches you about “serotonin dysfunction,” but doesn’t tell you to quit smoking, run.  He has missed the forest for the trees.

 

 

Like a way to remedy some of the awful feeling from being overdrugged on them!  Hmmmm.  It seems like the ones who are more drugged up - seem to be the heaviest smokers.  I thought it was a function of the brain damage caused to the judgement / impulse control frontal lobe by the neuroleptic, but there may be other factors at play here.

 

I didn't post this quote to hammer on smokers - it turns out I disagree with much of what this guy (The Last Psychiatrist) posts - but Item #4 was very very relevant!

 

And that's in addition to the chemical compounds.

 

Yes, I agree with you that e-cigs / vaping is still a designer chemical compound.  And they SHOULD - like they do with ciggies here in Australia - tell you the strength of the cartridges.  The preliminary study in West Australia was about using them as a bridge to quitting smoking - and it found that - whatever chemical compound it was - was better than combustion.  Or, not as bad for you, anyway.  OF COURSE, the nicotine and myriads of other chemicals cross the blood-brain barrier (or we would never get addicted to it), and there are no long term studies, or anyway to check the changes made in the brain by those chemicals.  But the lungs seem to be better.

 

Here's another weird one for you:  did you know that I could get in MORE trouble here for growing my own tobacco, than for growing my own pot here?  It is just as illegal!  (how's that for a corporate rort?  Probably goes back to the day when the Queen owned the tobacco, and taxes....)

 

As for the chemicals, "rollies" (roll your own) are very popular here, and it's my understanding that is just tobacco leaf, no sprayed additives (but how do we know?)

 

I had culture shock watching people making rollies around me - I kept thinking: "he's rolling a joint in public!" Until I realized, that 25% of cig smokers here roll their own.

 

Now if only we could design our own vape cartridges....You can always use a specialized vape for dry material, but they are bulky, expensive, and not as sleek as an e-cig.  (listen to me, talking like I still smoke!)


"Easy, easy - just go easy and you'll finish." - Hawaiian Kapuna

 

Holding is hard work, holding is a blessing. Give your brain time to heal before you try again.

 

My suggestions are not medical advice, you are in charge of your own medical choices.

 

A lifetime of being prescribed antidepressants that caused problems (30 years in total). At age 35 flipped to "bipolar," but was not diagnosed for 5 years. Started my journey in Midwest United States. Crossed the Pacific for love and hope; currently living in Australia.   CT Seroquel 25 mg some time in 2013.   Tapered Reboxetine 4 mg Oct 2013 to Sept 2014 = GONE (3 years on Reboxetine).     Tapered Lithium 900 to 475 MG (alternating with the SNRI) Jan 2014 - Nov 2014, tapered Lithium 475 mg Jan 2015 -  Feb 2016 = GONE (10 years  on Lithium).  Many mistakes in dry cutting dosages were made.

 

Currently Lithium Orotate 1.67 mg only.  I will re-evaluate this supplement in 2017.

 

I have been psych drug FREE since 1 Feb 2016!


#85 InvisibleUnless

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Posted 07 July 2015 - 12:57 AM

the lung issue is an interesting one...vaping can be better for the lungs, but more agitating of the airway if you arent vaping a liquid or semi-liquid.  tobacco smoking reduces lung functionality, but pot smoking increases functionality in the way of capacity due to the general practice of large 'hits' and holding your breath a long time.  this may be why you see far more career-type athletes smoking weed than smoking tobacco products.  having clearer lungs (due to, and) for vaping chemical cartridges might increase their toxic effect, but i believe, at the moment, they have an overall more limited damage profile, even if there are some chemical spikes compared to other recreational tobacco.

 

thats very interesting, the varying punishments for drugs.  they are almost always disproportionate (to each other and themselves) when it comes to criminality per potential damage or effectiveness.  self-rolling is only meaningful if you find a tested and accountable place to purchase your tobacco from.  the few people i have known that were into it had to get it mail-ordered, so its kind of like specialty organic meats or whatnot, grown small-time and under more ideal conditions for the few people truly that interested in a superior and less toxic product.

 

actually, i bet you COULD cook up something that would vape more cleanly than standard cartridges.  and it would not be too hard to refill the reusable cartridges with it (like refilling your own printer ink cartridges when they are not the use-and-toss kind).  it would take some genuine science to make sure you arent introducing something even more toxic into your system, but a nicotine suspension is easier to cook up than something generating a more holistic and addictive buzz.  also, as you noted, you dont necessarily have to use the ecigs---more traditional vaporizers might suit a healthier approach better, and would not even necessarily require inventing your own solution methods.  the increasing commercial interest in drug paraphernalia has made catalogue/online ordering or store-purchasing of vaporizer alternatives easier and more competitively priced than ever here.  a decent quality one might run you more money than a crappy pocket-deal, but its generally worth it.  many users report vaping as a different high, for ecigs as well as weed, but there are interesting things (like prolonged storage of vaporized material in breathable form) that you can achieve with vaporizing that can create an advantage over combustion consumption.

 

and to return to the initial comment for all of this, i agree with your assessment of the cigarette situation in terms of counteracting the effects of debilitating medications.  they seem to have a mild stabilizing effect on those taking neuroleptics but also often bring a greater sense of balance to individuals with unmedicated diagnoses of schizophrenia and disorders on the anxiety and depression spectra.  i dont know the biology of it all, but i figure that stimulation and competitive reuptake are both present factors, as they tend to be in herbal treatments that are administered through inhalation.

 

it brings us back to how western medicine quite often focuses on treating symptoms instead of causes.  issues like obesity or addiction can certainly cause further health problems in their own right, but we often completely ignore the underlying architecture and try to trade one addiction or problem with another.  i dont mean to knock the validity of the aid that some can find in things like medications or addiction organizations, but AA is another lifestyle addiction, and relying on drugs to be an 'appropriate' weight is not any safer than remaining obese, except for some (and not all!) of the further complications obesity can cause.  obesity is one of those things that is primarily non-visual/aesthetic...its not just our body bulk, its our blood, our organs, our visceral encasement, our serotonergic stimulus response system, etc---you can change how it presents, but that is quite different from actually treating the problem, and reducing the overall risk factors caused by it.  people marvel at the success of western medicine by citing how most people over 40 are on medications that they will have to take for the rest of their lives...how is chronic treatment, instead of curative measures, a ringing success?  i feel like we have lost touch with hope itself.


from 2005-2012, i spent 7 years taking 17 different psychotropic medications covering several classes.  i would be taking 3-7 medications at a time, and 6 out of the 17 medications listed below were maxed or overmaxed in clinical dosage before i moved on to trying the next unhelpful cocktail.
 
antidepressants (SSRIs, SNRIs, NDRIs, tetracyclics): zoloft, wellbutrin, effexor, lexapro, prozac, cymbalta, remeron
antipsychotics (atypical): abilify, zyprexa, risperdal, geodon
sleep aids (benzos, off-label antidepressants & antipsychotics, hypnotics): seroquel, temazepam, trazodone, ambien
anxiolytics: buspar
anticonvulsants: topamax
 
i tapered off all psychotropics from late 2011 through early 2013, one by one.  for all 5 years since quitting, ive been cycling through severe, disabling withdrawal symptoms spanning the gamut of the serious, less serious, and rather worrisome side effects of these assorted medications.  previous cross-tapering and medication or dosage changes had also caused undiagnosed withdrawal symptoms.
 
brainpan addlepation


#86 strongereachday

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Posted 17 July 2015 - 01:32 AM

Hi guys wanted to see if anyone has been through this experience its quite scary for me. So I smoked pot almost a month ago. Basically since then I've had much worse depersonalization derealization crazy thoughts and anhedonia. It's like my brain was already slow and damaged and the weed elevated it. Am I going to be okay. I'm in alot of pain. I'm almost 18 months out and I've made so much progress but this weed has really set me back

#87 JanCarol

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Posted 17 July 2015 - 02:12 AM

Okay, I have several collected bits about cannabis, I will post them from my notes.  There are a variety of opinions expressed in these - none of them are "official SA" nor are they "recommendations"  This is just a discussion of issues around the use of cannabis as a medicinal for mental illness and withdrawal.

 

* * *

Will Hall says, to use cannabis while trying to withdraw is to ensure that it is unsuccessful.  He says there is nobody that he has counselled, who used cannabis, who was able to go fully off the psych drugs.

 

Sean Blackwell used to say it was counterproductive, but now works with anyone willing to "do the work," whether they are using cannabis (or other psychoactive drugs) or not.

 

Many of the stories in SA speak of "recreational drugs when young," and many of those stories ended up in years of psych drugged fog.  The recreational drugs (e.g., cannabis and entheogens) hasten the "spiritual emergency," which can become too intense to bear, especially when you are young and trying to get a degree or work a new job or start a new relationship.  There is never, really, a good time for a spiritual emergency.  There are other ways, besides psych drugs, through spiritual emergency, but transpersonal psychology is rare and difficult to find.

 

In Australia, cannabis for any mental health patient is forbidden.  Cannabis is regulated, decriminalized in a few areas.  It is illegal in the majority of places, with differing levels of punishment in different locales.

 

This is one place where I believe with Thomas Szasz, that doctors and policemen should not have control over what we put in our bodies.  People have been ingesting entheogens for millenia, and it is part of what made humans who we are.

 

However, it's illegal, and I don't recommend black market.  Not only is a jail term inconvenient - it is also a variable source of drug which is difficult to control the effect.  It has been classified as a stimulant, then a depressant, then a hallucinogen.  It is all of these, and more.

 

In California, it is  prescribed for PTSD and depression, as well as chronic pain and epilepsy.  I've heard claims that it is anti-inflammatory, anti-cancer, neuroprotective, anti-diabetes.  Some of these claims even have studies to point to them.  And it's not easy to get permission for  a cannabis study, since it's so tightly controlled, worldwide.

 

It's even being considered for blood sugar regulation in diabetes: 

http://healthland.ti...rticle-mostpop1

 

Keep in mind there are prohibitions against cannabis in most countries and states, and at least 49% of people in the USA believes it is damaging.  The percentage goes higher when you are talking about psych people.  100% of psych practitioners here in Australia believe it is evil (but then they prescribe neuroleptics and such), and a trigger for many mental and emotional problems.

 

Here's 2:  http://www.madinamer...-schizophrenia/

and:  http://www.madinamer...risk-psychosis/

 

It affects dopamine and serotonin and cannabinoid pathways.  That said, it is prescribed for PTSD and depression in California.  However, California has special medical strains so that you can control the balance of the CBD to THC ratio, and other cannabinoids  for different conditions.  Street dope does not have that benefit.  That said, it cannot be as bad as olanzapine, for example.

 

Pasted from <http://survivinganti...mminent/page-30>

 

 

http://www.madinamer...-population.pdf

 

Marijuana use is “associated with a fivefold increase in the risk of a first diagnosis of bipolar disorder.” One-third of new bipolar cases in the Netherlands result from it.

 

Pasted from <http://www.madinamer...ipolar-illness/>

 

It is "known science" that young males aged 15-25 have a greater risk at "developing schizophrenia" or having psychotic episodes when they partake of cannabis.

 

Harvard Health says that all teens double risk of psychotic episode if they have smoked at least 5 joints before:  http://www.health.ha...is-201103071676

 

In Scandanavia, they found a 4 to 1 incidence of schizophrenia in cannabis users,

with a more abrupt onset of schizophrenic symptoms than nonusers:  http://onlinelibrary...C4941C6B.f02t02

 

On the flip side of this, in Sydney, they are testing CBD (Cannabidiol - more in a moment) as mood stabilizers and antipsychotics:  https://www.neura.ed...s-antipsychotic

 

Another article from New Zealand about smoking pot (I said smoking, here) lowering IQ in teenagers (the danger zone of brain formation) - or was the IQ loss (studied in Norway) more about social factors associated with smoking of pot? :  http://www.foxnews.com/health/2013/01/15/does-pot-really-lower-iq/


Edited by JanCarol, 17 July 2015 - 09:19 PM.
Correct broken link

"Easy, easy - just go easy and you'll finish." - Hawaiian Kapuna

 

Holding is hard work, holding is a blessing. Give your brain time to heal before you try again.

 

My suggestions are not medical advice, you are in charge of your own medical choices.

 

A lifetime of being prescribed antidepressants that caused problems (30 years in total). At age 35 flipped to "bipolar," but was not diagnosed for 5 years. Started my journey in Midwest United States. Crossed the Pacific for love and hope; currently living in Australia.   CT Seroquel 25 mg some time in 2013.   Tapered Reboxetine 4 mg Oct 2013 to Sept 2014 = GONE (3 years on Reboxetine).     Tapered Lithium 900 to 475 MG (alternating with the SNRI) Jan 2014 - Nov 2014, tapered Lithium 475 mg Jan 2015 -  Feb 2016 = GONE (10 years  on Lithium).  Many mistakes in dry cutting dosages were made.

 

Currently Lithium Orotate 1.67 mg only.  I will re-evaluate this supplement in 2017.

 

I have been psych drug FREE since 1 Feb 2016!


#88 indigo

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Posted 17 July 2015 - 06:40 AM

"On the flip side of this, in Sydney, they are testing CBD (Cannabidiol - more in a moment) as mood stabilizers and antipsychotics:  http://www.smh.com.a...826-108p12.html"

I was unable to find anything on CBD when clicking this link. I have been prescribed CBD oil for withdrawal anxiety in California so am very interested in all CBD studies.


On 20 mg of Prozac for about ten years. Sept 2012 started reducing 10% a drop using gram scale, with average of one month holds.

When I'd reached the half way mark, taking 10 mg  powder out of the 20 mg capsules, I switched over to 10 mg capsules and cutting

down from those. Withdrawals got harder the lower I dropped.  May 2013 changed to 5% drops, holding until all withdrawal symptoms gone.

January 2015 changed to liquid prozac (concentration of 20MG per 5 mL) using a 1mL oral syringe.

Current dose of fluoxetine solution equivalent 3.4 mg. Any effort to drop below this has been disastrous so for the time being I'm staying at this level.
Adding 200 mg Tryptophan and 200 GABA a day has helped with anxiety.
Also take 1,300mg Omega- 3,  875mg  Magnesium, 1800mg Curcumin, 1000mg Vit C, 5000 Vit D.
 

 


#89 indigo

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Posted 17 July 2015 - 04:37 PM

As I posted before, I had been trying CBD cannabis oil to help relieve intense anxiety and sadness from withdrawal. 

It certaily seemed to work in that regard. An hour after I took it, I felt way better for the rest of the day.

However I began to notice that next day I felt worse. Sort of crashed. At first I didn't connect it with taking the CBD oil.

I thought the worse dark moods might be just part of withdrawal from my last drop in prozac, and also as I mentioned I'd been really stressed by having my house (very remote) broken into. Anyway, I decided to stop taking the oil for a week or so to see if I stabilized. After a week without it, I do seem to be steadier. Less up and down. Still studying the process. It will take longer than a week to tell. I'll let you know.

By the way, to re-iterate,  medical, organic  CBD cannabis oil in a prescribed legal dose for anxiety, is not at all the same as smoking pot. It definitely does not get you high. Just relaxes.

I definitely think it would be great for someone with regular anxiety or depression.

However I'm  still not convinced it's a good thing for someone in SSRI recovery with hyper-sensitive neuro-transmitters trying to find equilibrium.


On 20 mg of Prozac for about ten years. Sept 2012 started reducing 10% a drop using gram scale, with average of one month holds.

When I'd reached the half way mark, taking 10 mg  powder out of the 20 mg capsules, I switched over to 10 mg capsules and cutting

down from those. Withdrawals got harder the lower I dropped.  May 2013 changed to 5% drops, holding until all withdrawal symptoms gone.

January 2015 changed to liquid prozac (concentration of 20MG per 5 mL) using a 1mL oral syringe.

Current dose of fluoxetine solution equivalent 3.4 mg. Any effort to drop below this has been disastrous so for the time being I'm staying at this level.
Adding 200 mg Tryptophan and 200 GABA a day has helped with anxiety.
Also take 1,300mg Omega- 3,  875mg  Magnesium, 1800mg Curcumin, 1000mg Vit C, 5000 Vit D.
 

 


#90 JanCarol

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Posted 17 July 2015 - 09:14 PM

Sorry about the link - I'll try and fix.  The research in my notebook was about a month old.

 

Okay, here is a corrected link, and I have replaced it in the above post, as well

 

https://www.neura.ed...s-antipsychotic


"Easy, easy - just go easy and you'll finish." - Hawaiian Kapuna

 

Holding is hard work, holding is a blessing. Give your brain time to heal before you try again.

 

My suggestions are not medical advice, you are in charge of your own medical choices.

 

A lifetime of being prescribed antidepressants that caused problems (30 years in total). At age 35 flipped to "bipolar," but was not diagnosed for 5 years. Started my journey in Midwest United States. Crossed the Pacific for love and hope; currently living in Australia.   CT Seroquel 25 mg some time in 2013.   Tapered Reboxetine 4 mg Oct 2013 to Sept 2014 = GONE (3 years on Reboxetine).     Tapered Lithium 900 to 475 MG (alternating with the SNRI) Jan 2014 - Nov 2014, tapered Lithium 475 mg Jan 2015 -  Feb 2016 = GONE (10 years  on Lithium).  Many mistakes in dry cutting dosages were made.

 

Currently Lithium Orotate 1.67 mg only.  I will re-evaluate this supplement in 2017.

 

I have been psych drug FREE since 1 Feb 2016!


#91 degen12

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Posted 17 July 2015 - 09:38 PM

On DP/DR forums, using marijuana is probably the most commonly cited factor for initiating depersonalization. The good news is that it doesn't seem to stick. I've spent a lot of time on depersonalization forums, and those who got it after smoking pot seemed to be the most likely to recover. Keep yourself occupied, try not to read too much about depersonalization (that is probably the number one aggravating factor), and I think you will get better with time. One month out is not that long. Withdrawing from prescription drugs could draw things out, but I wouldn't worry about it being permanent. That leads to a lot of unnecesary panic. I'm not an expert in depersonalization, but few are.


April / 2016: Cipralex 10 mg, Mirtazapine 30 mg, Lyrica 600 mg, Diazepam 20 mg, Bystolic 5 mg

April / 2016: Mirtazapine 30 mg -> 15 mg


#92 degen12

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Posted 17 July 2015 - 10:12 PM

On the topic of vaping...

 

While nicotine is not addictive, the combination of nicotine and certain other chemicals in tobacco smoke is highly addictive. While nicotine by itself is not directly carcinogenic, it can be considered a co-carcinogen because it promotes cell prolifferation and the growth of pre-existing tumors.

 

Better than smoking, but abstinence is best.

 

/opinion

 

As for marijuana, it causes my mind to race. I envy others who say it mellows them out. Maybe I've just had bad experiences with over potent strains. I would really like to try a strain with a low THC/CBD ratio.


April / 2016: Cipralex 10 mg, Mirtazapine 30 mg, Lyrica 600 mg, Diazepam 20 mg, Bystolic 5 mg

April / 2016: Mirtazapine 30 mg -> 15 mg


#93 JanCarol

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Posted 19 July 2015 - 06:07 PM

degen writes:  

 

 

While nicotine is not addictive, the combination of nicotine and certain other chemicals in tobacco smoke is highly addictive.

If nicotine is not addictive, then why all the fuss with the gums, lozenges, patches, inhalers, etc.?  Do these contain the same chemical compounds as tobacco smoke?  That people use them - as awful as they taste - means they are desperate for their addiction.

 

I thought that nicotine was the main addictive component of cigarette smoke - and here's another gross thing:  jail-garettes.

 

I heard about "bans on cigarettes" in Indiana jails, and the inmates took to rolling nicotine patches up with coffee grounds and smoking them......  (ewwww!)

 

This may be another topic - but how do you feel about smoking bans in mental hospitals?  It's like taking away the last thing that people care about (to me).

 

More cannabis to come (I still have unposted notes)...


"Easy, easy - just go easy and you'll finish." - Hawaiian Kapuna

 

Holding is hard work, holding is a blessing. Give your brain time to heal before you try again.

 

My suggestions are not medical advice, you are in charge of your own medical choices.

 

A lifetime of being prescribed antidepressants that caused problems (30 years in total). At age 35 flipped to "bipolar," but was not diagnosed for 5 years. Started my journey in Midwest United States. Crossed the Pacific for love and hope; currently living in Australia.   CT Seroquel 25 mg some time in 2013.   Tapered Reboxetine 4 mg Oct 2013 to Sept 2014 = GONE (3 years on Reboxetine).     Tapered Lithium 900 to 475 MG (alternating with the SNRI) Jan 2014 - Nov 2014, tapered Lithium 475 mg Jan 2015 -  Feb 2016 = GONE (10 years  on Lithium).  Many mistakes in dry cutting dosages were made.

 

Currently Lithium Orotate 1.67 mg only.  I will re-evaluate this supplement in 2017.

 

I have been psych drug FREE since 1 Feb 2016!


#94 degen12

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Posted 19 July 2015 - 08:50 PM

degen writes:  

 

 

While nicotine is not addictive, the combination of nicotine and certain other chemicals in tobacco smoke is highly addictive.

If nicotine is not addictive, then why all the fuss with the gums, lozenges, patches, inhalers, etc.?  Do these contain the same chemical compounds as tobacco smoke?  That people use them - as awful as they taste - means they are desperate for their addiction.

 

Nicotine can help to stop cravings in people who are already dependant on tobacco (although not very well). It doesn't appear to be reinforcing, at least in rats. Combined with MAO inhibition, which tobacco smoking produces, it is. It's kind of a moot point though, since nicotine is harmful on its own, something a lot of e-ciggarrete proponents don't like to admit.

 

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/16177026

J Neurosci. 2005 Sep 21;25(38):8593-600.
Monoamine oxidase inhibition dramatically increases the motivation to self-administer nicotine in rats.
Guillem K1, Vouillac C, Azar MR, Parsons LH, Koob GF, Cador M, Stinus L.

Abstract

Nicotine is the major neuroactive compound of tobacco, which has, by itself, weak reinforcing properties. It is known that levels of the enzymes monoamine oxidase A (MAO-A) and MAO-B are reduced in the platelets and brains of smokers and that substances, other than nicotine, present in tobacco smoke have MAO-inhibitory activities. Here, we report that inhibition of MAO dramatically and specifically increases the motivation to self-administer nicotine in rats. These effects were more prominent in rats selected for high responsiveness to novelty than in rats with low responsiveness to novelty. The results suggest that the inhibition of MAO activity by compounds present in tobacco smoke may combine with nicotine to produce the intense reinforcing properties of cigarette smoking that lead to addiction.

PMID: 16177026 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

April / 2016: Cipralex 10 mg, Mirtazapine 30 mg, Lyrica 600 mg, Diazepam 20 mg, Bystolic 5 mg

April / 2016: Mirtazapine 30 mg -> 15 mg


#95 degen12

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Posted 19 July 2015 - 09:19 PM

This may be another topic - but how do you feel about smoking bans in mental hospitals?  It's like taking away the last thing that people care about (to me).

 

I started smoking in a "mental hospital", after a long hiatus. It took me several months to kick the habit once again. Tobacco was banned at the hospital, but the more stable (sedated?) among us were granted unwatched outings several times a day. Since most people who end up in a mental hospital smoke, they all tend to gravitate to one spot just outside of the hospital's property, and smoke. Being the only company we had (and generally good people themselves), us non-smokers went with them as well. I watched two people who had never smoked in their lives (and are now good friends of mine) start this way. Only one has quit.

 

That's my problem with a lot of anti-smoking regulations. It's important to protect people from second-hand smoke, but I think regulations meant to engineer smokers to quit by isolating them tends to backfire. If you smoke, and everyone around you smokes, it's hard to quit. Regulations that relegate smokers to specific areas increases social cohesion amongst those groups.


April / 2016: Cipralex 10 mg, Mirtazapine 30 mg, Lyrica 600 mg, Diazepam 20 mg, Bystolic 5 mg

April / 2016: Mirtazapine 30 mg -> 15 mg


#96 JanCarol

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Posted 21 July 2015 - 06:00 AM

Yah, and this gets back to cannabis:  I think that prohibition in general makes things worse.  At least tobacco smokers don't end up in prison for it!

 

I promised more cannabis notes, here ya go:

 

* * *

VAPING NOTES: 

Smoking anything is not good for your lungs, however some studies show that people who smoke cannabis and tobacco have lower cancer rates than those who smoke tobacco only.  At worst, other studies show that those who smoke cannabis only, have lower cancer rates than those who smoke tobacco only.

 

The new trend is vaporizing, or "vaping."  On my last trip to California, I saw many people with vape pens around their neck, and they were not for tobacco.  Vaping heats the essential oil of the plant without combustion.  It is the combustion of the plant which releases the carcinogens.  Additionally, vaping changes the "buzz," making a smoother ramp up and down from the "high."

 

People with IBS, muscle spasm, or even akathisia might find vaping useful, as it would relieve the spasms.   However, be cautioned, that it is, even when it is oh-so-gentle, a psychoactive substance.  Fortunately, it is relatively short acting, compared to other street drugs, or pharmaceuticals.  If you try it, and it causes problems, just wait.  It will be over in a matter of hours, maybe even minutes.

 

Even so, in my own experimentation, when I have had serious pain or IBS, I cannot vape enough to do more than just "take the edge off."  The correlation between how much you can take in, and how high you get - is very real.  I find that taking in enough to ease the pain or spasm, is too much "high" for my mental and emotional comfort.  Smoking makes me "higher" than vaping, but vaping still "gets you high."

 

* * *

The Orthomolecular docs say that people with strong emotions and sensitivity are attracted to cannabis because it increases cadmium, which blocks copper receptors, and "smoothes" the emotions - however, this strategy causes more problems with cadmium and copper toxicity in the long run.  It seals the receptors, so there is more free copper running around, much in the way that SSRI's upregulate receptors.

 

* * *

If we think about it the way pharma does - CBD is a very effective anti-seizure medicine.  It is more potent when coupled with THC.   THC is dangerous to hyper-sensitive people in withdrawal, but CBD could be helpful for akathisia, tics, and maybe even anxiety.

 

Thinking like big pharma, if anti-seizure medicines are "mood stabilizers," it would follow that CBD is a mood stabilizer as well.  But - that is thinking like Big Pharma - using a class of drugs to create an effect, not considering the cause of the original problem.

 

I would think that cannabis, especially high THC cannabis, would continue to mask the mood problems.  "Escape" them, as it were.  In a very similar way to psych drugs.  Plus, with the added effect of psychosis enhancement.

 

Unfortunately, because of the legalization of cannabis in 2 states, the medicinal value of cannabis is being overlooked.  Cannabis is being hybridized for effect, for "buzz" and "high", much like big pharma.  This means higher THC content, and even more volatile psychoactive compounds for greater "highs".  There are at least 9 cannabinoid compounds in cannabis. 

 

Sometimes, more is not better.  Sometimes, balance is better.

 

If I could, I would create a cannabis with just a tiny tiny amount of THC, perhaps 1/2 of 1%, with a high CBD content, up to 40% if I could get it.  Maybe this kind of stuff is available in California.  But it certainly is not an option here, unless you are willing to break the law in a big way.  

 

There is one fellow here, who is doing much what Rick Simpson did / does.  He gives the oil away to patients in need.  He has been busted, released, busted again (I'm not up on his tale)  http://www.mullaways...annabis.com.au/  I have no hope that Australia will follow the USA in decriminalization, legalization or medicalization any time soon:  it is a moral thing here:  cannabis = "bad."  Even though there is a cannabis subculture based around Nimbin (http://www.nimbinmardigrass.com/ )  For some reason, it's okay here to drink until you are faceless and falling in the gutters or kicking your best friend to death, but it is not "acceptable" to use cannabis, no sir.

 

I would make it into an oil that could be taken orally, by the drop (Rick Simpson style).  Or, for people who were still concerned about psychoactivity, I would recommend juicing it, as heat releases the psychoactive compounds in cannabis.

 

I liked SouthernFreeze's simplified oil recipe - not as volatile or dangerous as the flammable Rick Simpson oil.  There would be some "buzz" to it, but not in the tiny amounts needed to control pain.

 

Someone here also mentioned juicing cannabis leaf - like wheat grass juice.  This is not psychoactive at all, as the cannabinoids must be heated to be psychoactive.  I have seen case after case (though no clinical trials) of chronic autoimmune, seizure, and pain disorders helped - even remitted or cured - using cannabis juice.  The difficulty is the quantity of plant needed for juicing, and the limits of the legality of that.  Fresh juice requires easily a pound a week of fresh plant.  The article below recommends planting a plant a day, and harvesting a plant a day.  Because of this, and the status of illegal in my state, I have never tried fresh juicing.

 

Info on the chemistry of this here:  http://www.alchimiaw...cannabis-juice/

 

I have tried taking a gel-capsule full of raw plant, but I suspect it doesn't break down very well - Southern Freeze's method would make it psychoactive.  Not "feeling" an effect, it was difficult to assess the result.  Overall, I would say that there was a reduction in pain (bowel pain, in my case), a reduction in muscle spasms - but it was not a "cure," nor was it a "solution."  Just a tiny step in the right direction.

 

* * *

I just came from a chronic pain forum, where they were talking about the "contract" to get pain drugs in the USA.  You have to use just one chemist, submit to drug testing, etc. etc.  ONE patient told his doc up front:  I don't want to take the test, I use cannabis.  The doc (it was a non-cannabis state, apparently) said, "That's okay, you've been up front with me.  I won't test you without fair warning."  After a year of treatment, the doc asked the patient:  "So, you still use cannabis?"   The patient said yes.  Doc answers:  "I thought so."  Patient says, "How did you know?"  Doctor said:  "THE PATIENTS WHO USE CANNABIS DO NOT NEED INCREASES IN THEIR PAIN DRUGS.  You have not asked for an increase, so I assumed you were still using cannabis."

 

(NOTE:  we do not know the means of taking the cannabis, it was most likely smoked.)

 

Food for thought.

 

* * *

 

Many people have tried the "edibles" for pain and cancer.  Again, the states which are hybridizing, are breeding for "buzz," not medicine.  The first danger of edibles is that the ramp up is long and slow.  You might eat too much and find out too late.  Stoners call this "creeping," or "creeper dope."  Carl Sagan judged drugs by this ramp effect.

 

If you took a puff of cannabis, you know pretty much within a few minutes what is going to happen to you.  If you eat an edible, you may not know what the effect is for 2 hours of more.  This is why Carl Sagan deemed LSD and other drugs to be dangerous, because they took so long to take effect.

 

The next danger of edibles - they have been baked, so the psychoactive elements have been released.  They are highly psychoactive.  I had a cousin with horrible throat cancer, and in his desperation to ease her pain, her husband bought her some edibles.  She tried half of one cookie - but - because she'd never been "high" before, she was afraid of the cookie, and wouldn't finish it.  Additionally, because she was not "experienced," she found the psychoactive "high" to be most unpleasant.

 

Again, this could be eased by releasing edible products which are higher in CBD and very little THC, but that is not the trend that is happening.

 

As the breeders strive for higher, more potent cannabis, I fear that our young men (especially, as the risk is greatest for males aged 15-30) will be thrown into the hands of the psych institutes faster than ever.  Especially if they have a history of ritalin or other psych drugs under their belts, as is more and more common.

 

* * *

Pharmaceutical companies have tried to cash in on the medicinal values of cannabis, like Sativex and Marinol.

 

Users of these substances for epilepsy, chronic pain, cancer, MS, etc. find that they are not as effective as the whole plant substances.

 

And I'll bet you have to promise your first born child to get a script for these.  The main benefit would be that there is no "high" on these drugs.

 

* * *

 

If you asked an 18 year old JanCarol, would she want cannabis without the "buzz," she would have told you how crazy you were for thinking I would want that.  Now I want it more than ever.

 

I wish I could grow and juice, but I am unwilling to go to prison.  I'll have to wait until the prohibition ends.  THEN, I will have a forest, and juice several plants a week.  But only then.


"Easy, easy - just go easy and you'll finish." - Hawaiian Kapuna

 

Holding is hard work, holding is a blessing. Give your brain time to heal before you try again.

 

My suggestions are not medical advice, you are in charge of your own medical choices.

 

A lifetime of being prescribed antidepressants that caused problems (30 years in total). At age 35 flipped to "bipolar," but was not diagnosed for 5 years. Started my journey in Midwest United States. Crossed the Pacific for love and hope; currently living in Australia.   CT Seroquel 25 mg some time in 2013.   Tapered Reboxetine 4 mg Oct 2013 to Sept 2014 = GONE (3 years on Reboxetine).     Tapered Lithium 900 to 475 MG (alternating with the SNRI) Jan 2014 - Nov 2014, tapered Lithium 475 mg Jan 2015 -  Feb 2016 = GONE (10 years  on Lithium).  Many mistakes in dry cutting dosages were made.

 

Currently Lithium Orotate 1.67 mg only.  I will re-evaluate this supplement in 2017.

 

I have been psych drug FREE since 1 Feb 2016!


#97 Wingbatty

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Posted 18 August 2015 - 01:36 PM

I was super surprised when I googled this and it popped up on the site I was just visiting! Thanks for keeping all discussions open!  :wub:

 

Since we've been living in a country that is friendly to pot, I've been experimenting a little bit. Specifically I found that I don't like the feeling of being "high" very much, but if I smoke a very small amount, it completely douses my anxiety attacks.

 

There are two main strains here - indica (said to relax you) and sativa (said to hype you up). The sativa strain gives me straight-up panic attacks, and a friend of mine who is over-using it is starting to have paranoia. Scary stuff.

 

I use maybe 1-2 times a month. I only use a small amount, and only when I'm having very high anxiety - in the evenings, so I can relax and sleep. It has been very helpful so far. When we eventually move away from here, I will miss the availability.


Lexapro/Escitalopram

- many attempts at taper were unsuccessful until I stopped taking hormonal birth control

- successful taper & Lexapro-free as of Dec 2015


#98 manymoretodays

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Posted 26 August 2015 - 06:31 PM

Beyond Meds has a nice summary of different perspectives on pot use today.


Started with psycho meds circa 1988 I think 27 or 28 total.

AD's, antpsychotics, antiseizure mood stabilizers. Lithium, lamictal,benzos, and stimulants. Some med. for narcolepsy once?, Gabapentin........probably more.  Ask me?......I probably was on it.  Haphazard W/D's by Dr. recommend or uneducated self.

10/2014- off Lexapro--had been on highest dose 10 mg. then 5 mg. for a couple of years, went from 5 mg. to 3 mg. liquid and then CT in hospital(voluntary).  I got out of the hospital on a combination of low dose adderal salts x1/day and trileptal 150mg. x2/day.

5/28/2015-off Adderal salts 2.5mg. (I had been on that since hospital 10/2014)

12/2015---just holding, holding, holding, with trileptal/oxcarb at 75 mg. 1/2 tab at hs.  My last psycho med ever!

 

3/21/2016---I did some unwise updosing of trileptal/oxcarbazepine with some stressful stuff......doubled the above dose x2 during this last wave but began liquifying again and on approximately 68mg. starting today.  11/12//2016 24 mg. oxcarbazepine  12/9/2016 off oxcarbazepine/trileptal!!!! :) optimistic

Omega3's,EPA +DHA= approx. 1200/day. Magnesium citrate orally,diluted in a liter of H2O(that I can shake up.....it usually dissolves more completely as the water gets down to room temperature) and/or Epsom salt baths prn.   Vit. C and E.  B12, melatonin 3mcg., and bioidentical hormones sublingually.  Trace mineral drops.  L-lysine.  L-methylfolate=300 mcg. Totally ready for a good long window to hit soon and getting better strings of full days and partial days along the way.  Definite improvement overall since I first arrived on the SA survivor ship.  Herb and alcohol free since 5/15/2016.

 


#99 JanCarol

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Posted 28 August 2015 - 10:30 PM

Is this the article you were speaking of, manymore?

 

http://beyondmeds.co...-mental-health/

 

It also links to:

https://www.madiname...-alcohol-drugs/

 

Both articles by Will Hall, who I referenced above as stating "if you want withdrawal recovery, do not smoke cannabis." - they look like very balanced articles!


"Easy, easy - just go easy and you'll finish." - Hawaiian Kapuna

 

Holding is hard work, holding is a blessing. Give your brain time to heal before you try again.

 

My suggestions are not medical advice, you are in charge of your own medical choices.

 

A lifetime of being prescribed antidepressants that caused problems (30 years in total). At age 35 flipped to "bipolar," but was not diagnosed for 5 years. Started my journey in Midwest United States. Crossed the Pacific for love and hope; currently living in Australia.   CT Seroquel 25 mg some time in 2013.   Tapered Reboxetine 4 mg Oct 2013 to Sept 2014 = GONE (3 years on Reboxetine).     Tapered Lithium 900 to 475 MG (alternating with the SNRI) Jan 2014 - Nov 2014, tapered Lithium 475 mg Jan 2015 -  Feb 2016 = GONE (10 years  on Lithium).  Many mistakes in dry cutting dosages were made.

 

Currently Lithium Orotate 1.67 mg only.  I will re-evaluate this supplement in 2017.

 

I have been psych drug FREE since 1 Feb 2016!


#100 manymoretodays

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Posted 29 August 2015 - 05:51 AM

Thank you for adding the links.  And yes, that was the article I referred to.  Will Hall is full of good wisdom.......

 

Now I have Mad in America bookmarked too!  :)


Started with psycho meds circa 1988 I think 27 or 28 total.

AD's, antpsychotics, antiseizure mood stabilizers. Lithium, lamictal,benzos, and stimulants. Some med. for narcolepsy once?, Gabapentin........probably more.  Ask me?......I probably was on it.  Haphazard W/D's by Dr. recommend or uneducated self.

10/2014- off Lexapro--had been on highest dose 10 mg. then 5 mg. for a couple of years, went from 5 mg. to 3 mg. liquid and then CT in hospital(voluntary).  I got out of the hospital on a combination of low dose adderal salts x1/day and trileptal 150mg. x2/day.

5/28/2015-off Adderal salts 2.5mg. (I had been on that since hospital 10/2014)

12/2015---just holding, holding, holding, with trileptal/oxcarb at 75 mg. 1/2 tab at hs.  My last psycho med ever!

 

3/21/2016---I did some unwise updosing of trileptal/oxcarbazepine with some stressful stuff......doubled the above dose x2 during this last wave but began liquifying again and on approximately 68mg. starting today.  11/12//2016 24 mg. oxcarbazepine  12/9/2016 off oxcarbazepine/trileptal!!!! :) optimistic

Omega3's,EPA +DHA= approx. 1200/day. Magnesium citrate orally,diluted in a liter of H2O(that I can shake up.....it usually dissolves more completely as the water gets down to room temperature) and/or Epsom salt baths prn.   Vit. C and E.  B12, melatonin 3mcg., and bioidentical hormones sublingually.  Trace mineral drops.  L-lysine.  L-methylfolate=300 mcg. Totally ready for a good long window to hit soon and getting better strings of full days and partial days along the way.  Definite improvement overall since I first arrived on the SA survivor ship.  Herb and alcohol free since 5/15/2016.

 


#101 JanCarol

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Posted 02 October 2015 - 09:48 PM

Wow, here is a guy that has the right idea.  In a number of ways - he gave up his license to practice medicine, in order to supply this healing herb for the sick and dying:

 

 

He soaks the crushed plant in MCT oil - very healthy, and effective.  He then exposes the mixture of plant and MCT to a "sonicator," which breaks down and infuses the oil to a very precise degree - 4 mg/ml (I think that's what I heard) - using NO HEAT!  (even Rick Simpson oil uses heat).

 

AND - NOT FLAMMABLE!  Edible, safe, safe, safe!  No dangerous solvents used to make it!

 

This would not be psychoactive at all, and would be very helpful for spasms, chemotherapy, maybe even PTSD or withdrawal!  
And, since it is not pure CBD, it would be more effective (having just a small amount of THC is more effective than CBD alone.)

 

I can get a decent sonicator for just over US $200.  Now, if only I were willing to take the risks that he is, and grow the stuff!  I cannot believe how open he is with it here, when the police tend to crack down very hard on other medicinal suppliers out of Nimbin, and recreational users.  (that said, some of the highest THC pot is grown here, not in Colorado)  

 

The possibilities of this, are intriguing, and bring me hope that some of this cannabis confusion can be cracked.  Australia starts a medical marijuana trial sometime next year.


"Easy, easy - just go easy and you'll finish." - Hawaiian Kapuna

 

Holding is hard work, holding is a blessing. Give your brain time to heal before you try again.

 

My suggestions are not medical advice, you are in charge of your own medical choices.

 

A lifetime of being prescribed antidepressants that caused problems (30 years in total). At age 35 flipped to "bipolar," but was not diagnosed for 5 years. Started my journey in Midwest United States. Crossed the Pacific for love and hope; currently living in Australia.   CT Seroquel 25 mg some time in 2013.   Tapered Reboxetine 4 mg Oct 2013 to Sept 2014 = GONE (3 years on Reboxetine).     Tapered Lithium 900 to 475 MG (alternating with the SNRI) Jan 2014 - Nov 2014, tapered Lithium 475 mg Jan 2015 -  Feb 2016 = GONE (10 years  on Lithium).  Many mistakes in dry cutting dosages were made.

 

Currently Lithium Orotate 1.67 mg only.  I will re-evaluate this supplement in 2017.

 

I have been psych drug FREE since 1 Feb 2016!


#102 apace41

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Posted 22 October 2015 - 08:27 AM

And, since it is not pure CBD, it would be more effective (having just a small amount of THC is more effective than CBD alone.)

 

Spent a little time reading through this thread, JanCarol, and it is clear you are the "Cannibis Queen!"

 

What are your general thoughts on CBD Oil to deal with anxiety, sleep, joint/muscle pain etc. associated with withdrawal.  No THC, no psychoactive, but CBD Oil which has a pretty good/safe track record for those things.

 

Curious to see where you are on this.

 

I'm thinking about trying it out, but hesitant (no shock!).

 

Thanks in advance,

 

Andy


Started Sertraline 50mg and Clonazapam .375mg circa 2000; Sx Spring 2012. increased to .5 Clonazapam - no improvement; Started taper of K November 2012 (benzo sites said "taper benzo first"); increased Sert to100mg no improvement; Finished K microtaper in November 2014
Started Sertraline taper from 100mg in December 2014 by reducing to 75mg; Reduced to 62.5mg on January 1, 2015 and 50mg on February 1, 2015; Held at 50mg through April 5 when I got Rx for liquid Sertraline
Reduced dosage in 10% or less drops from 50mg to 25mg -- at single tablet on 10/5

Held through February with no noticeable change

March 2016 attempted to begin taper again but miscalculated into 1 week accidental updose to 32.5mg; dropped back to 25mg for 1 week; tapered to 22.5mg the following week; hit with symptoms and tried to stabilize between 22.5mg and 25mg.  Transitioned to all liquid for accuracy. Was dealing with horrible insomnia which had me sleeping once every other day.  Went back to 25mg liquid and held until October 1, 2016.  October 1 cut 4% to 24mg.  November 1 cut 8.3% to 22mg. December 1 cut 9% to 20mg.  Not great but functional. 2/1/17 cut 5% to 19mg.  Taking Spray-on Magnesium, Magnesium supplements, D3, Omega 3, curcumin, Co-Q10, Valerian, 81mg Aspirin, L-Theanine


#103 JanCarol

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Posted 29 October 2015 - 11:11 PM

Hey Andy - 

 

I think that CDB is pretty darned safe, if approached with respect and caution.  There have been no overdoses from CBD, no toxic reactions, no "rush to hospital" effects, and most of all, no deaths from any cannabis product ever.

 

However, I am an kitchen herbalist first, and cannabis queen second (maybe just a cannabis princess?).  In herbalism, we use the "ensemble" synergistic effect of a plant - because the whole plant - not just extracts of active chemicals - ameliorate side effects, enhance bioavailable uptake, decrease bacterial interference, and increase efficacy of the individual componants.  Just the flute in the orchestra is not nearly as effective as the whole orchestra.

 

If I could get ahold of CBD oil legally, I would try it to see if it helped with IBS, pain, muscle spasms and sleep.  But be careful, there are "pyramid schemes" and "Amway" style deals out there selling CBD, and the prices seem super inflated to me.  I had an old business associate who tried to "get me in at the ground floor" of one of these - at a time when his state didn't even have legal CBD (in other words, the marketers didn't care who signed up, didn't clear what was legal or not - they just sold packages)!  It is an expensive thing to "just try."

 

And then there's the question of "what kind of CBD oil"?  It seems there's a market out there - and very few have "established, vetted sources."  Let me know what you find out - I saw one site that had green, blue, and gold CBD oil at different prices and I have no idea what they meant (except that the green seemed to have more of the whole raw plant in it) or what would be appropriate!  Unless you are among the lucky few who can pop down to the corner market and select a syringe of CBD from an array of descriptions (good for muscles, seizures, pain, relaxation, sleep, etc.)

 

I do think that, with the oil, you'd need to give it a week trial, not just one night, to accumulate some benefits.  It is stored in the fat, and if you have extra (most of us do) it may take awhile before you get the benefit.

 

But in my herbal beliefs, I think that whole plant extract (as demonstrated by "Dr. Pot" above) would be more wholesome, especially if you are looking for anti-inflammatory, healing, repair, and anti-carcinogenic properties.   THC is only psychoactive when heated. (ergo, Rick Simpson oil, which claims to be non-psychoactive - is heated - and would have psychoactive elements).  I first started looking into cannabis science when hubby got cancer.  I couldn't find a non-psychoactive, non-street source for him, but became deeply intrigued by the research and case studies.  

 

On another note - I had hemp seed oil in my salad last night - it was delicious!  (and no brain cells were harmed in the process!)  :D


"Easy, easy - just go easy and you'll finish." - Hawaiian Kapuna

 

Holding is hard work, holding is a blessing. Give your brain time to heal before you try again.

 

My suggestions are not medical advice, you are in charge of your own medical choices.

 

A lifetime of being prescribed antidepressants that caused problems (30 years in total). At age 35 flipped to "bipolar," but was not diagnosed for 5 years. Started my journey in Midwest United States. Crossed the Pacific for love and hope; currently living in Australia.   CT Seroquel 25 mg some time in 2013.   Tapered Reboxetine 4 mg Oct 2013 to Sept 2014 = GONE (3 years on Reboxetine).     Tapered Lithium 900 to 475 MG (alternating with the SNRI) Jan 2014 - Nov 2014, tapered Lithium 475 mg Jan 2015 -  Feb 2016 = GONE (10 years  on Lithium).  Many mistakes in dry cutting dosages were made.

 

Currently Lithium Orotate 1.67 mg only.  I will re-evaluate this supplement in 2017.

 

I have been psych drug FREE since 1 Feb 2016!


#104 apace41

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Posted 30 October 2015 - 04:39 AM

JC,

 

Thanks for the reply.  I did a fair amount of research and wound up ordering a not-too-expensive, not-too-potent product from a pretty long-standing and what seems to be reputable supplier, Cibdex.

 

https://livetobewell...ray-supplement/

 

I figured it would be a decent way to "stick a toe in the water" to see if there were any noticeable benefits and then I could decide whether or not to go to one of the higher concentration CBD products that are on the market (and get way more expensive). 

 

I received my package yesterday (impressed with the speed of (free) delivery) as I ordered on Monday of this week.  Decided not to take it at work where it arrived (even though I intellectually knew different I had this image of me being totally "stoned" at my desk  :D ) and took a couple of sprays when I got home.  Could well be placebo or just tired at the end of the work day, but I was very relaxed shortly thereafter (with no wine or beer -- usually have one glass of something -- with dinner).  So, this morning I took one spray rather than 2 to test the reaction (if I can make it last longer why not, right?).  I didn't notice the same effect as last night but it's a little hard to say at this early stage.

 

I will continue to test it at varying levels and see what results I get and report accordingly.

 

Appreciate your input as always.

 

Andy


Started Sertraline 50mg and Clonazapam .375mg circa 2000; Sx Spring 2012. increased to .5 Clonazapam - no improvement; Started taper of K November 2012 (benzo sites said "taper benzo first"); increased Sert to100mg no improvement; Finished K microtaper in November 2014
Started Sertraline taper from 100mg in December 2014 by reducing to 75mg; Reduced to 62.5mg on January 1, 2015 and 50mg on February 1, 2015; Held at 50mg through April 5 when I got Rx for liquid Sertraline
Reduced dosage in 10% or less drops from 50mg to 25mg -- at single tablet on 10/5

Held through February with no noticeable change

March 2016 attempted to begin taper again but miscalculated into 1 week accidental updose to 32.5mg; dropped back to 25mg for 1 week; tapered to 22.5mg the following week; hit with symptoms and tried to stabilize between 22.5mg and 25mg.  Transitioned to all liquid for accuracy. Was dealing with horrible insomnia which had me sleeping once every other day.  Went back to 25mg liquid and held until October 1, 2016.  October 1 cut 4% to 24mg.  November 1 cut 8.3% to 22mg. December 1 cut 9% to 20mg.  Not great but functional. 2/1/17 cut 5% to 19mg.  Taking Spray-on Magnesium, Magnesium supplements, D3, Omega 3, curcumin, Co-Q10, Valerian, 81mg Aspirin, L-Theanine


#105 JanCarol

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Posted 30 October 2015 - 05:16 AM

Thanks Andy, for being our first CBD explorer!  I looked at the formula, company "looks" like a pharma kinda place.  I imagine they work really hard to look reputable, given the stigma associated with anything cannabis.

 

I wish they didn't need to put stevia in it though, blech!  Hate the stuff!  (wish I didn't)  


"Easy, easy - just go easy and you'll finish." - Hawaiian Kapuna

 

Holding is hard work, holding is a blessing. Give your brain time to heal before you try again.

 

My suggestions are not medical advice, you are in charge of your own medical choices.

 

A lifetime of being prescribed antidepressants that caused problems (30 years in total). At age 35 flipped to "bipolar," but was not diagnosed for 5 years. Started my journey in Midwest United States. Crossed the Pacific for love and hope; currently living in Australia.   CT Seroquel 25 mg some time in 2013.   Tapered Reboxetine 4 mg Oct 2013 to Sept 2014 = GONE (3 years on Reboxetine).     Tapered Lithium 900 to 475 MG (alternating with the SNRI) Jan 2014 - Nov 2014, tapered Lithium 475 mg Jan 2015 -  Feb 2016 = GONE (10 years  on Lithium).  Many mistakes in dry cutting dosages were made.

 

Currently Lithium Orotate 1.67 mg only.  I will re-evaluate this supplement in 2017.

 

I have been psych drug FREE since 1 Feb 2016!


#106 apace41

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Posted 30 October 2015 - 05:21 AM

Thanks Andy, for being our first CBD explorer!  I looked at the formula, company "looks" like a pharma kinda place.  I imagine they work really hard to look reputable, given the stigma associated with anything cannabis.

 

I wish they didn't need to put stevia in it though, blech!  Hate the stuff!  (wish I didn't)  

 

LOL.  They were an early player so I figured if they've made it for several years they can't be too shady!

 

Yes, I drew the line at Stevia.  If it had been Aspartame I'd have cut and run!

 

On other sites that provide reviews, some of the more seasoned CBD customers indicate the Cibdex formulation is weaker that some of the others but that's kind of what I wanted as a test case.  If figured if it's all good and no bad I can go up in grade for the next purchase.

 

Yes, the whole stigma thing is crazy.  It's a real indication of how the government imprimatur on things really colors how we feel.  By way of example, there is no doubt that CBD Oil is more beneficial for humans than smoking cigarettes, but which one is more generally "accepted"? 

 

Seriously?

 

LOL.

 

Andy


Started Sertraline 50mg and Clonazapam .375mg circa 2000; Sx Spring 2012. increased to .5 Clonazapam - no improvement; Started taper of K November 2012 (benzo sites said "taper benzo first"); increased Sert to100mg no improvement; Finished K microtaper in November 2014
Started Sertraline taper from 100mg in December 2014 by reducing to 75mg; Reduced to 62.5mg on January 1, 2015 and 50mg on February 1, 2015; Held at 50mg through April 5 when I got Rx for liquid Sertraline
Reduced dosage in 10% or less drops from 50mg to 25mg -- at single tablet on 10/5

Held through February with no noticeable change

March 2016 attempted to begin taper again but miscalculated into 1 week accidental updose to 32.5mg; dropped back to 25mg for 1 week; tapered to 22.5mg the following week; hit with symptoms and tried to stabilize between 22.5mg and 25mg.  Transitioned to all liquid for accuracy. Was dealing with horrible insomnia which had me sleeping once every other day.  Went back to 25mg liquid and held until October 1, 2016.  October 1 cut 4% to 24mg.  November 1 cut 8.3% to 22mg. December 1 cut 9% to 20mg.  Not great but functional. 2/1/17 cut 5% to 19mg.  Taking Spray-on Magnesium, Magnesium supplements, D3, Omega 3, curcumin, Co-Q10, Valerian, 81mg Aspirin, L-Theanine


#107 apace41

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Posted 12 November 2015 - 05:52 PM

Here's the power of CBD oil in action.

 

http://www.wbrc.com/...cbd-oil-therapy

 
Andy

Started Sertraline 50mg and Clonazapam .375mg circa 2000; Sx Spring 2012. increased to .5 Clonazapam - no improvement; Started taper of K November 2012 (benzo sites said "taper benzo first"); increased Sert to100mg no improvement; Finished K microtaper in November 2014
Started Sertraline taper from 100mg in December 2014 by reducing to 75mg; Reduced to 62.5mg on January 1, 2015 and 50mg on February 1, 2015; Held at 50mg through April 5 when I got Rx for liquid Sertraline
Reduced dosage in 10% or less drops from 50mg to 25mg -- at single tablet on 10/5

Held through February with no noticeable change

March 2016 attempted to begin taper again but miscalculated into 1 week accidental updose to 32.5mg; dropped back to 25mg for 1 week; tapered to 22.5mg the following week; hit with symptoms and tried to stabilize between 22.5mg and 25mg.  Transitioned to all liquid for accuracy. Was dealing with horrible insomnia which had me sleeping once every other day.  Went back to 25mg liquid and held until October 1, 2016.  October 1 cut 4% to 24mg.  November 1 cut 8.3% to 22mg. December 1 cut 9% to 20mg.  Not great but functional. 2/1/17 cut 5% to 19mg.  Taking Spray-on Magnesium, Magnesium supplements, D3, Omega 3, curcumin, Co-Q10, Valerian, 81mg Aspirin, L-Theanine


#108 oskcajga

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Posted 12 November 2015 - 06:02 PM

 

Here's the power of CBD oil in action.

 

http://www.wbrc.com/...cbd-oil-therapy

 
Andy

 

 

Would someone on this thread care to comment on their experiences with CBD oil?

 

E.g.,

 

EXACTLY which brand did you take?  A link would be preferable.

How much did it cost?

What was your dose?

How long did the effects last?

What time of day did you take it?


8 Words of Wisdom about Adverse Effects and Psychiatric Drug Withdrawal Syndrome:

 

1.  Please do learn about this condition by thoroughly reading 1) Dr. Healy's website and SurvivingAntidepressants.

2.  Please read books like: 1) Anatomy of An Epidemic and 2) Mad in America.

3.  Success Stories do exist.

4.  Please be extremely cautious about reinstatements, recreational drugs, supplements.  Even low doses can complicate matters.

5.  Transfer all financial assets into your own name (hint: relationships end).  Do not spend money wastefully.  Keep your job as long as possible.

6.  Psychiatric drug "withdrawal" and adverse effects are serious neurological reactions to powerful "drugs" - do not take this condition lightly.

7.  These conditions almost never recognized by any medical doctors - hospitalization/appointments can be futile/potentially injurious.

8.  PSSD, anhedonia (no emotions), memory loss, brain zaps, etc are scary - don't worsen them by taking more drugs, supplements, and medications.

 

Stimulant free since September 20th, 2014; SSRI free since September 1st, 2013