How good are naturopaths and other alternative practitioners?

[Janie]

I agree. I went to a holistic place and had mixture of feelings about it. I tried some of the herbs they recommended that helped me get by for awhile (magnolia bark /seditol and saffron bought at grocery store - there is a post on that) Doc also put me on replacement hormones to help calm me and it has helped some.  BUT they also suggested cocktail herbal pills like Kavenance and Travacor.  I knew enough thanks to Alto to try only one thing at a time in small dose. Do not try more than one thing because something could be bad or good and you would not know which one was doing what.  One holisitic doctor tried to give me Neurontin!  She called it gabapentin so at first I thought it was GABA - an amino acid or something rather harmless. I'm so glad I didn't purchase it on the spot since they were selling it there. I wanted to research it first on my own and glad I did.  When I asked if it was an amino acid, she just said 'it will calm you'   I hate when they do not explain things and expect you to blindly swallow whatever they prescribe.  .

 

I did a saliva test for  cortisol but it didn't show anything that out of wack!  I'm not sure what can be done for that anyway.  We already know we have anxiety and cortisol or something off the chart. The test did no good for me.  For sleeping, sometimes I could only sleep with the tv on or trying to read.  Brain needed to be occupied and get so tired I'd nod off. If I am just laying there, the flight or fight response is too turned on it seemed.

 

So yes, you have to be very careful with these types of doctors too. And they are horribly expensive. You can definitely get more help on this website!  I have recently been much improved after starting coQ10 enzyme. It might be a factor, or maybe I am just at the healing point.  You may want to consider that if not already taking it. start with low dose. There are posts on this supplement.

 

For allergy tests, you can order your own at EnteroLab (depending on what state you live-no doctor needs to order).  Multi-tests can get expensive but if you suspect one thing like wheat, an individual test is like $100.  A comprehensive allergy test  might cost the same as one or two visits to a holistic doctor.   Might be money well spent. I don't know if allergies can cause insomnia.

[Aria]

I wanted to thank all of you for your replies. I was looking for some info from others who'd tried the Naturapathy route. I had no idea of the extensive blood testing or the weekly sessions, maybe the ND was trying to have a nutritional intervention. I had my first visit, it wasn't what I thought and I'm not returning. Would be too pricey and from all you've written about your experiences it doesn't work well for anyone with severe w/d issues plus the paradoxical issues using the supplements.

 

I'm not familiar with herbal supplements and will search here for what may work for me. I don't have anxiety, it's problematic insomnia. Not sleeping has impacted my life and being to tired to drive or think is hard.

 

[Altostrata]

Please see our topics about sleep http://survivingantidepressants.org/index.php?/topic/604-important-topics-about-symptoms-including-sleep-problems/

[dekiru]

I saw a naturopathic doctor a couple of weeks ago and she did bioresonance testing on me. It basically proved what I thought was happening; low immune system, hormones messed up, slight infection etc.

She recommended that I take a supplement called NT Factor Energy. It's supposed to help with mitochondrial function and immune system. But it's so expensive and she says I would need to take it for 2-4 months at the least.

Part of me wants to try it as fed up of pain and feeling faint etc, part of me knows my body healing itself and doesn't want to add another supplement into the mix.

Agh.

What to do?

[compsports]

I definitely understand the desperation.   But as someone who wasted alot of money on supplements, I fear you would be going down a path you don't want to go down, particulary since systems are very hypersensitive in withdrawal.  And I would be very leery of spending alot of money on something that has no guarantee of working.

 

Good luck with your decision.

 

CS

[Altostrata]

These expensive special supplements are always suspicious. What are the ingredients?

 

(If they won't give you the ingredients, it definitely is a scam.)

[Petunia]

I don't know what 'bioresonance testing' testing is.  But unless this naturopath has a lot of experience with how these supplements effect people who are dealing with psychiatric drug withdrawal, I would be very careful with any advice or recommendations, and especially be cautious about any herbs/supplements they try and sell to you. 

 

These supplements may be harmless to a healthy, stable nervous system, but most of us here are in a sensitized state due to withdrawal and even the smallest amount of a vitamin, mineral or herb can cause unpredictable effects, often unpleasant ones.

[dekiru]

Thanks, all.

I decided not to try as it's too expensive and she says I'd need to take it for 2-4 months!

I just wish the withdrawal would end and I could feel well again.

I seem to be going through a bad patch at the moment.

[Altostrata]

I have a big basket of supplements I haven't been able to use because they caused bad reactions.

[SouthernFreeze]

I went to a nuturopath just for two sessions. It kind of felt weird her asking my spirit if i need b vitamins and things (apparently it's just what they do) i don't really believe in that stuff.

Anyway, she was great at helping with my digestive problems and helping find ways of cutting out my over indulgence in sugar and things.... a **** load better than any drug pushing doctor i have ever seen. But i don't she would have been able to help me through the drugs withdrawals like she boasted.

As someone said earlier, i think this site is the best help ya can get. I don't think i would be able to find any doc or naturopath in my country who would understand withdrawal enough to know how to deal with it properly.

[Altostrata]

At a respected alternative medicine center here, I recently saw an MD, a former psychiatrist (!!!???) who has taken the naturopathic route, for food sensitivities (histamine intolerance). I told him I had been taking aspirin daily on the advice of my cardiologist, and I believed it had damaged my gut (aspirin is famous for this).

 

He ignored what I told him about my history, which included an emphasis on how I'm hypersensitive to drugs. Without even asking what my current symptoms are, looking at tests that were over a year old, he told me:

 

1. I must have some genetic abnormality since I had such a very rare bad reaction to Paxil withdrawal. We must get to the bottom of this. (Fat chance, doctor. And you're wrong about withdrawal syndrome being rare.)

 

2. I'm most likely gluten-intolerant. Recommendation: A $99 Enterolab test, not covered by insurance. (I looked this up and it's the usual non-validated nonsensical test  http://www.cureceliacdisease.org/archives/faq/why-dont-you-recognize-tests-stool-tests-or-otherwise-for-gluten-sensitivity-that-are-currently-available-through-companies-like-enterolab-or-cyrex I have been on a gluten-free diet since 7/10/14. Gluten is not the cause of my food sensitivities.)

 

3. After we determine I'm gluten-intolerant -- he assumed I would be -- then we'll go after the heavy metals. He prescribes the usual harsh drugs for chelation. (Not having heard that I'm hypersensitive to drugs. For the last 40 years, naturopaths have advised chelation, which can have serious adverse effects, for everything. There is no evidence it helps anyone who hasn't had intense heavy metal exposure, usually in a factory or in the military.)

 

4. The food sensitivities are symptomatic of a leaky gut. We need to heal my gut before I get better. (I agree with him there. But he reeled off a bunch of supplements that were inappropriate for histamine sensitiivity.)

 

5. We need to address my MTHFR polymorphisms. Nobody knows exactly how to do this. It's trial and error. (I told him again I was hypersensitive to B vitamins supplements.)

 

6. Then we'll test my neurotransmitters and get them balanced with the usual extremely expensive NeuroScience supplements. When he got to dopamine as the pleasure chemical, I said "You lost me at dopamine. I don't think this applies to me. My mood is fine." (As you can imagine, at this point I lost patience with him. Balancing neurotransmitters is not any more valid in alternative medicine than it is in conventional medicine.)

 

So wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong. After an hour of this, I felt like a nail that had been hit repeatedly with the same inappropriate hammer. I'm afraid I let my irritation show.

 

The next time I saw him, I started out saying there had been a miscommunication. I was not coming to see him for gluten intolerance, I had histamine intolerance. He had never heard of this.

 

Well, then he said healing a leaky gut was something he could help me with.

 

He suggested I might have insufficient stomach acid, which would mean taking an additional acid, Betaine HCL. I could have an expensive non-covered test to determine this. (Whoa, if you already have stomach irritated from aspirin, this is DEFINITELY NOT something you want to do.) 

 

While Googling about insufficient stomach acid, I found lots of confirmation that regular aspirin can erode the small intestine and even cause ulcers. One danger is that these ulcers will become infected with H. pylori, a nasty bacterium that conventional medicine would treat with a triple antibiotic -- something else I'd have a very hard time with. He missed this possibility completely -- odd for someone who deals with leaky gut a lot.

 

I phoned to request an order for an H. pylori test and he was unresponsive. So I went to the GP who's covering for my doctor while he's on vacation and persuaded him to order the test. (A stool test is much more accurate than a blood test for H. pylori.) I'm waiting for the results. I hope I don't have it!

 

So, folks, all I can say is, it's very, very difficult to find a good naturopathic practitioner. Like conventional medicine, naturopaths are now trying to diagnose from tests instead of a combination of careful listening, common sense, and solid knowledge.

 

Diagnosing from tests works poorly in conventional medicine and even worse in alternative medicine, because many of the tests alternative practitioners use, such as the NeuroScience and Enterolab tests, are hooey. (Forget chelation, please. That was an alternative medicine Hail Mary pass 40 years ago that's become a senseless convention.) And, like an allopathic doctor, if a naturopathic doctor doesn't listen carefully to you, you're wasting your time.

 

Naturopathic doctors don't have any magic, and if you feel like a nail that's been hit by the wrong hammer, that alternative practitioner isn't right for you, either.

[SouthernFreeze]

damn that sux

how many naturopaths have you seen?

[Altostrata]

Over about 15 years, I have seen 4 at that center. The only one that was any good was the first, a female doctor in her 70s who was dedicated to functional medicine, not naturopathic medicine.

[compsports]

Wow Alto, thanks for sharing your experiences.  I am so sorry you went through that.

 

Yup, careful listening has definitely gone out the door with conventional and alternative med folks.   It is pretty discouraging.

[Meimeiquest]

That was ridiculous and inexcusable. I agree, I think the best is an excellent MD trained in functional medicine. But they are few and far between, and expensive. My sister goes to one...a couple of months ago he was scheduling new patients for February. I have been reading a lot of amymyersmd.com on gut health lately. But haven't seen anything on histamine.

[compsports]

That was ridiculous and inexcusable. I agree, I think the best is an excellent MD trained in functional medicine. But they are few and far between, and expensive. My sister goes to one...a couple of months ago he was scheduling new patients for February. I have been reading a lot of amymyersmd.com on gut health lately. But haven't seen anything on histamine.

Unfortunately, I am cynical about doctors trained in functional medicine.  Not that this proves anything about out of curiosity, I did a search of functional medicine and sleep apnea which took me to the sites of two doctors trained in FM.  

 

One correctly said that menopause can increase the sleep apnea risk for women.  Unfortunately, the other one implied that sleep apnea was due to metabolic issues and that if they were corrected, the sleep apnea would disappear.  

 

Not correct as the metabolic issues are from sleep apnea when people have both conditions.  Successful treatment from the apnea can improve or cure the metabolic issues but not always.

 

Wow, the one your sister goes to must be good if he isn't seeing folks until February.   That is great she found someone good.

[alexjuice]

That was ridiculous and inexcusable. I agree, I think the best is an excellent MD trained in functional medicine. But they are few and far between, and expensive. My sister goes to one...a couple of months ago he was scheduling new patients for February. I have been reading a lot of amymyersmd.com on gut health lately. But haven't seen anything on histamine.

I have a lot of experience with NDs and alt doctors. I can give my take via PM if anyone wants my comment.

 

I also know Amy Myers, she's in my thread back in the first 10 pgs but I don't use her name.

[tiredofremeron]

Thinking of seeing an integrative/functional doctor for analysis of everything.  I am 19 months off benzos and 3 months off Remeron, and after two slow tapers, now having nasty symptoms which are not settling down.  Can anyone say that they saw such a doctor, did all the testing, followed the recommendations, and that they got better , or at least hastened the healing from those recommendations.  I'm not wanting to continue chasing treatments, therapies, etc, when we've been told all along that only time will help the withdrawal process.      I'd love to hear if integrative medicine recommendations either did nothing, or helped a lot.      Thanks

[Meimeiquest]

I went to one in 2009 who was not able to help me, although he did teach me some things. He missed my sleep apnea (we discussed the possibility) and he dropped my Zyprexa dose by 50% and didn't think I did well off of it. I quit going because I wasn't getting better despite all the testing and supplements...I think it was more irritation about that which made him think I hadn't recovered from the Zyprexa cut four months later.

 

In May I went to a subset of integrative doctors, those who practice "orthomolecular medicine" which has been soundly renounced by the American Psychiatric Association. They have been awesome (there is a thread on them, Mensah Medical). Which doesn't mean they would necessarily be awesome for you, it was just my experience. Also, I am still tapering. The supplements have raised my baseline of how I feel substantially, but they did not make tapering easier or faster. They do not believe protracted withdrawal happens, they believe the symptoms are from an underlying physical issue that needs to be resolved (I'm not saying I agree, it's just their position).

 

I have been just once to an integrative psychiatrist in my city, who has had some exposure to orthomolecular medicine. He seems like an awesome person. I guess it remains to be seen how much value he can bring...I am way past just following doctor's orders. He did not order any labs (but I've had a bajillion between the two other places) and he doesn't sell any supplements, which is reassuring and unusual. His blog is firstnopharm.com, if you want to read it. He is in effect switching me from a benzo to inositol, which is really, really speeding up the benzo- reducing process, but I don't know what problems it may cause me down the road.

 

JanCarol goes to an orthomolecular doctor in Australia, if you want to check out her thread.

 

My sister goes to a wonderful integrative doctor in Colorado (TriLife Health). But he took her off Prozac with a two week "taper" and that hasn't gone well.

 

The "muscle testing" thing is popular in integrative medicine right now. You might want to research that before you go to someone, and know what your thoughts and questions are about it (I did it with chiros in the distant past, but none of the docs above do it.)

 

Good luck in your decision!

[compsports]

Thinking of seeing an integrative/functional doctor for analysis of everything.  I am 19 months off benzos and 3 months off Remeron, and after two slow tapers, now having nasty symptoms which are not settling down.  Can anyone say that they saw such a doctor, did all the testing, followed the recommendations, and that they got better , or at least hastened the healing from those recommendations.  I'm not wanting to continue chasing treatments, therapies, etc, when we've been told all along that only time will help the withdrawal process.      I'd love to hear if integrative medicine recommendations either did nothing, or helped a lot.      Thanks

Tiredofremeron,

 

As one who was also on remeron, I would be very leery of seeing one as many of these folks, like convention med docs, have no clue about withdrawal and you will end up with supplements that might worsen your condition.   By the way, I do understand the desperation and have unfortunately, due to insomnia issues, purchased supplements against my better judgment because of this.  Easier said than done, I know.

 

Best of luck with your decision.

 

CS

[mammaP]

Thinking of seeing an integrative/functional doctor for analysis of everything.  I am 19 months off benzos and 3 months off Remeron, and after two slow tapers, now having nasty symptoms which are not settling down.  Can anyone say that they saw such a doctor, did all the testing, followed the recommendations, and that they got better , or at least hastened the healing from those recommendations.  I'm not wanting to continue chasing treatments, therapies, etc, when we've been told all along that only time will help the withdrawal process.      I'd love to hear if integrative medicine recommendations either did nothing, or helped a lot.      Thanks

Tired, I have moved your question to this exisitng thread about doctors and clinics. It is one thread per person in the intro forum. 

There is a wealth of information here but sadly the search facility on this software is not very good. If you have questions, tyoe

the keywords in to google followed by survivingantidepressants.org.  I just typed in integrative doctors and this thread was at the top

of the first page! I knew it was here but it saved time going through the list. 

[Altostrata]

merged related topics.

[Rhiannon]

I went to a naturopath last summer and when I started talking about my taper, she pulled out a brochure about balancing neurotransmitters using supplements. I didn't go back. Haven't tried any others in the past five years, so there may be some good ones out there, but my limited experience so far indicates that alternative practitioners are no more knowledgeable about psych drugs causing problems than conventional docs are.

[freespirit]

I think there are a lot of naturopaths out there who operate on a western model, doling out supplements like docs dole out pills. I personally would never see someone like that.

 

I started working with a naturopath a couple of years before I went off the AD. In the 4 1/2 years I've worked with him, I've come home with 1 supplement. It was a mutually agreed upon probiotic that I started taking in January. He is extraordinarily wise, and very humble. He wants to know how I'm doing physically, emotionally, and spiritually. He respects what I'm doing healing wise, and also, what I know about my own body.

 

I've worked primarily with homeopathy with him, plus some bodywork on accupressure points, and a number of meyer's cockails (it sounds exotic, but it's IV vitamins--vit C, glutathione, magnesium, b vitamins, and other things, depending on how I'm doing). I know the vitamins would probably be too stimulating for some, but for me, I feel a wave of calm wash over me..and it has helped enormously with everything from muscle pain to insomnia. I know many people would think homeopathy was hokey, and I had my doubts at the beginning..but I'm  a pragmatist, with a healthy dose of skepticism. If something works, I'm willing to continue.

 

He has never done tests, nor suggested weekly visits. When things are more difficult, I see him every 4-6 weeks..when things are better, I go a few months between visits. When I feel unwell, I see him first....my MD is way down the list. If I broke my leg, I'd of course go to a western doc..for most other things, no.

 

He isn't very knowledgeble about WD, but he listens and says he's learning things from me.

 

There are a few good ones out there...but it is very much buyer beware.

[awakeandaware]

Unfortunately, there are a lot of people out there who will use any opportunity they can to take advantage of people and make a buck. This does not mean that alternative medicine is not genuinely helpful, just that some of the practitioners are not generally helpful, or genuine. A true healer will want to charge less, and give you more, not the other way around. If these phonies could pretend to be real doctors, they would do that. But it is a lot easier to pretend you know about energy bodies and herbs. I am sorry that you had such a negative experience. 

[JanCarol]

Aw heck, just lost what I started.  I have many stories to share of the good and bad of "natural" and "alternative" practitioners.  Sorry, this will take several posts.  I agree with Alto - you have to be careful with *any* practitioner, and Gia - that you have to listen to what your body and intuition and bullhockey detectors are telling you.

 

Alex started this thread:

 

This was a very upsetting experience because some of the things Magic Nancy said actually made sense to me. However some advice didn't ring true at all.

 

and

 

The cutting edge of quantum physics research and application is on a gravel road behind the market in Williamson County Texas, who knew!? In a trailer home to boot!

 

Wow Alex, you are braver than I!  I draw the line at muscle testing (and iridology, for reasons I'll explain later).  So hey - it was brave of you to try!

 

It's astonishing to know that the cutting edge research in quantum physics is happening in a trailer in Texas!  

 

The parts that "ring true" remind me of my time reading tarot for money.  I came to think of them as "marks" and knew by reading them, what to say to them to elicit the response I wanted - whether I wanted emotional response - or to invoke hope - or fear - or whatever.  It's the reason I gave up reading, because it was dehumanizing to me and them.

 

The thing about reading tarot - or whatever psychic reading you want to do (and that's what Magic Nancy claimed, that her psychic quantum ability was informing her of your solutions) - is that you will HIT at least 25-40% of the time.  IF you can make that 25-40% stick, or if you get lucky and read say, a 60% accurate reading, then the "mark" will remember the hits, and forget the misses (unless the misses are glaring or dramatically wrong).

 

So I look at a lot of natural practices this way.  Are they "hitting" more than just a psychic reader would?  Could I do better myself?  Do they correlate with other tests and knowledge that I have?  (this is where Magic Nancy failed your test, as you knew better than to CT your benzos!)

 

I look at MagicNancy like this:  she's insecure, or she wouldn't need to be so bossy.  She must have control issues, and you are good to be free of her.  Any chance you can free your mother, too?

 

Karma wrote:

 

 I had an excellent experience withBiomeridian, but I think one reason my experience was good was due to the certified nutritionist that used to the tool. She used blood testing in association with the tool and consulted with an integrated physician

 

I had a similar electrical resistance test like Biomeridian, and it blew my skull open.  It made me feel vulnerable and angry and upset my balance for a week or so while I processed the information.  I still don't believe in it - but like Alex said - it was very accurate - I'd say 70% accurate - even though I don't get how electrical resistance can read precise values for over 200 nutrients and physical conditions!

 

Like you, I correlated it to the blood and spit tests from my orthomolecular doc, and took the naturopath's recommendations with a grain of salt.  I MUST ADD that I did NOT PAY for the test, as she is a friend and a student - and wanted to test her machine on someone.  I had my blood tests there and could confirm or deny what her machine told me.

 

I walked around in a daze for days, shaking my head, wondering how that worked.

 

I decided that it was a very good psychic reading.  And the caring of my friend in administering the tests and the results.  I really wish I'd gotten a printout from that.  But it was free, so I'm not complaining.

 

At some point, I might be open to paying her to testing it again.

 

cmusic writes:

 

I was offered a 'plan' to take 5-HTP (which puts my anxiety through the roof), several proprietary blends of taurine, magnesium, etc., and some stuff that I realized after I bought it was Phenibut. Phenibut - he looked me right in the eye and said - it's not habit forming, we're dealing with the precursors to GABA, etc. 

 

and

 

Doing a little more research, I realized that the IgG tests they use for food 'allergies' are not even proven to indicate allergies. 

 

 

Wow.  Those are some heavy supplements you were offered!  OMG!  Anyone who blithely offers 5-HTP, Sam-E, and St. John's Wort for someone in withdrawal - really, really, really doesn't know what they are talking about.

 

The IGg test, as Alto pointed out, has scienfitic inconsistencies, and rarely produces the same result twice.  Here is my understanding of this, and if I'd been told this BEFORE I took the test, it would've helped immensely:  the IGg picks up on foods you have eaten recently.

 

So, for example, the night before I took my sample, I had a smoothie with almond milk, almonds, pineapple, and banana.  The IGg showed me reactive to almonds, pineapple and banana.  But that may have been just because my system was recently overloaded with a big dose of them.  So if you get an IGg it is VITAL to keep a FOOD DIARY of the foods you ate 3 days before the test.  

 

When I mentioned this to my orthomolecular, she shrugged, and just said what Alto said:  not the most reliable test.  But I believe it can be more useful if you have that food log, and match it to what shows up on the test.

 

I am grateful to the IGg, as it showed me HOW MUCH dairy was making me sick.  It makes me very sad to do without dairy, I still have small bits, but I know now to be careful.  The question is, how careful.  Not even lactase seems to help with it.  And coconut milk is helpful in smoothies, coffee and tea, but less so for just drinking.  For me, it was easier to look at the extreme reaction to dairy on the IGg than it was to try the 30 day elimination thing.

 

More in a bit, there is much to tell.

[JanCarol]

Okay, throughout my life I've preferred natural practitioners.  But remember - my best friend went through medical school, giving me "evidence based tinted glasses."  

 

cmusic and Alto talked about the Vision clinic, and whether or not it should be included.  

 

My first thought was my attempts to get someone for hubby.  His best mate goes to an older doc, JR - who uses herbal / enzymatic / nutritional attempts to control cholesterol.  Hubby is suffering from myopathy, memory, energetic, and muscle problems with a very low dose of statin.  Well, he couldn't get in to see JR, so he picked someone else, also recommended from the practice.  This doctor just looked at his blood test and put it on the pharmaceutical statin chart - and INCREASED his statins.  He is an MD.  These are "alternative" MD's (though not functional medicine or ortho).

 

So - different doctors at a center might have different modalities of treatment.

 

I've always had massage therapists - some good, some bad.  Some got a little too close to sexual for my tastes (always men) some were just ineffectual.

 

I was a firm believer that lifestyle and health are deeply intertwined.  If I could just find the connection between diet, supplements, exercise, meditation, yoga and other practices - I would be well.  But after decades of that - and when my MD friend said, "bipolar II" - I let go of all of that.  I am only just finding it again.

 

But during those adventures I have experience with a few things.  As an accountant, I audited a local "natural therapies clinic," with 1 MD, 1 European trained Naturopath, an osteopath, a TCM acupuncturist, an herbalist, and maybe some fluffier, energetic type stuff.  As a business, it was poorly run, and they were embezzled by an employee.  Not relevant to this discussion - other than to emphasize that they weren't very grounded in what they were doing.  The MD no longer takes new patients, so maybe she's doing okay.  The Naturopath was a practicing "doctor" in Europe (Spain, I think) - but was only allowed to do so while supervised by an MD, in the state of Indiana.  I went to the acupuncturist - and she was quite good (also in my circle of friends).

 

What I liked about her was that she spoke English (more in a minute), and communicated to me what she was doing and why.  Other acupuncturists I have been to - especially the Chinese ones - only communicate in grunts, and like to keep the "mystery" of the practice above the healing aspect of it.  So by keeping the "mystery" you have to keep going back to them for treatment.

 

My current acupuncturist speaks English - and her special gift is listening (yes!).  She writes everything down, and even if she doesn't analyze it, or always have "the answer," she incorporates what she just hear into what she knows, and then feels my body and usually nails down what is happening.  It is a maintenance treatment - not an acute treatment.  Because I am on so many supplements, she leaves the chinese herbs alone.

 

 I used to study herbalism, believing that if our society ever collapsed, we might need to use simples from plants.  I still value that knowledge and skill - how to soothe a burn, salve an abrasion, calm an upset tummy, maybe ease a headache a bit.  But I found that modern lifestyles are rarely pure enough to get much benefit from plants.  They work best on people who live very clean, very pure lives - where I was living, that was nobody, as the town was PCB polluted, and the soil and water were toxic.  It is purer here in Australia, but less so all the time.

 

In my studies of herbalism, a friend of mine went to train with an Amish natural pracitioner.  Amish Jake.  That is his real name, but you can really only find him through word of mouth, as he lives in the hills and hollers of southern Indiana.  He used primarily iridology, and Nature's Sunshine products.  He also did some "energetic healing"  which sometimes included holding women's breasts and looking into their eyes hypnotically.  Or feeling them up.  It was gross and disgusting.

 

I was curious about the iridology, but realized (and this is true of nearly all practitioners - it is what distinguishes "art" from "science") that 10 practitioners will get 10 results.  There was a study done with opthalmologists, iridologists, optometrists, and people on the street.  All were shown photographs of eyes/irises, and asked to describe the health problems of the people whose eyes they were.  The people on the street were actually MORE accurate than the eye professionals, though not in a statistically significant way.

 

Then there is muscle testing.  I knew from my experience with yoga, that it is really easy to give body cues and that this test is so subjective - it involves the subjectivity of the patient, as well as the practitioner - as to be useless.  I am interested in the electrical resistance testing of substances, though - that you could, say, hold a banana, and the "cans" might detect if you were uncomfortable with that banana.....there might be something to that.  But I wouldn't spend money to find out.

 

Then there's homeopathy.  At one point, my MD friend, having female troubles, went to a homeopath.  She said he "smelled European" as in, didn't bathe enough for her comfort.  He took her off of all mint, and some other substances, as they "interfered" with the homeopathic treatment. I went to one of his lectures - one of the complaints of homeopathy is it is so personalized that it is impossible to do random controlled trials (RCT) because EACH CASE is individual, different.

 

I liked the explanation that, if you have a fever, you are trying to burn out an infection, so what you need it not to decrease the fever, but to INCREASE it.  That's the "homeopathy" - like treats like - premise.

 

But I looked into it more, and discovered that the dilutions of homeopathy no longer include any of the plant matter they are made from.  Not one molecule of them.  Water and sugar pills, with the "vibrational essence" of something that is long gone.

 

For withdrawal patients who are reactive, perhaps homeopathy is a pretty safe thing to try, because of that.  I find it to be useless.  But if the "energetics" of it is enough - it could help.

 

After her treatment with TCM and homeopathy, she fell pregnant, her problem was fixed.  But I tend to credit the TCM, not the homeopathy.

 

Free Spirit writes:

 

I've worked primarily with homeopathy with him, plus some bodywork on accupressure points, and a number of meyer's cockails (it sounds exotic, but it's IV vitamins--vit C, glutathione, magnesium, b vitamins, and other things, depending on how I'm doing). 

 

I'm more inclined to credit the IV vitamins than the homeopathy.....

 

Another item of interest is Flower Essences.  They are all the rage here in Australia.  They are supposed to work (like aromatherapy) more on the emotions and thought patterns than on the physical body.

 

But I can't seem to get past theimage of Dr. Bach running around in the fields "talking to flowers" and intuiting "what they were good for."  This seems to be the "scientific method" behind which flower essence remedies what.  Like, easy - just ask the flower fairy, right?

 

Again, they are likely safer than herbs, vitamins, aminos, etc.  And they do seem to focus on emotions - so they might be helpful - but it would take a darned good practitioner to use them.

[JanCarol]

Alto writes:  

 

For the last 40 years, naturopaths have advised chelation, which can have serious adverse effects, for everything. There is no evidence it helps anyone who hasn't had intense heavy metal exposure, usually in a factory or in the military.

 

and

 

Forget chelation, please. That was an alternative medicine Hail Mary pass 40 years ago that's become a senseless convention

 

Here is my understanding of chelation - and this also applies to distilled, alkaline, and reverse osmosis waters:  chelation is a reaming.  It sucks out ALL of your nutrients, vitamins, minerals, everything.  The longer you use it, the more depleted you become.  The same with those waters - 

 

Using them for a short term, acute crisis (like Alto said: extreme heavy metal exposure, or maybe in extreme toxic exposure), can be helpful.  

 

But using them for the longer term - including the waters! - can rip all your nutrients, vitamins and minerals away - leaving you a mess!  Sure, you lose the "toxins," but you also lose your copper, zinc, magnesium, calcium, and microminerals, B vitamins, even fat soluble vitamins.  

 

I would agree with Alto that chelation is VERY DANGEROUS for someone in withdrawal.

 

I'm trying an experiment with an infrared lamp.  I can't afford a sauna, which would be most purifying - but an infrared lamp gently purifies (takes a lot longer) without the dangers of chelation.

 

 

I've had friends take bee stings for neural damage caused by MS.  That was a painful waste of money.  I don't recommend that -

 

There's not much of it I do recommend.  Energy healing, Hands of Light and Reiki stuff is fine - but I refuse to pay for it.  There is too much variability in the practice for me to commit resources to "trying" that. 

 

But I cannot criticize those who do try it.  Humans are amazing, variable creatures, and what works for me, won't work for others and vice versa.  

I'd use the same criterion I would use for any health practitioner.  Am I being listened to?  Respected?  Do I feel better or worse after treatment?  (I was getting Chinese massage for about 2-3 months, when I realized it was making the pain worse, not better).  Do I look forward to seeing the person?

 

And I take charge where I can.  My ortho doc gives me all of my tests, so I can study them, and learn about them, and choose my own way forward.  She is not dictatorial, though I suspect I'm a little frustrating for her - I'm not in her area (gynecology) - but she took me on and I am thankful.

[freespirit]

Free Spirit writes:

 

I've worked primarily with homeopathy with him, plus some bodywork on accupressure points, and a number of meyer's cockails (it sounds exotic, but it's IV vitamins--vit C, glutathione, magnesium, b vitamins, and other things, depending on how I'm doing). 

 

 

I'm more inclined to credit the IV vitamins than the homeopathy.....

 

 

Another item of interest is Flower Essences.  They are all the rage here in Australia.  They are supposed to work (like aromatherapy) more on the emotions and thought patterns than on the physical body.

 

But I can't seem to get past theimage of Dr. Bach running around in the fields "talking to flowers" and intuiting "what they were good for."  This seems to be the "scientific method" behind which flower essence remedies what.  Like, easy - just ask the flower fairy, right?

 

Again, they are likely safer than herbs, vitamins, aminos, etc.  And they do seem to focus on emotions - so they might be helpful - but it would take a darned good practitioner to use them.

 

Thing is, I was at times going 6 months or longer without the iv vitamins and only using homeopathy then. Were the vitamins still helping me over that length of time? Perhaps...or maybe what helps is being in the presence of a caring, humble practitioner..or some combination of those things. I know homeopathy has been "studied"..but I personally don't hold studies with the kind of weight I used to. Has homeopathy been studied on people who have more sensitive nervous systems? Or who is doing the study? In the words of my university statistics prof, "statistics don't lie, liers use statistics". I'm a pragmatist and my body/mind is my laboratory. I study what works and doesn't for me and don't base on what someone else says.

 

You don't need a practitioner to be able to work with flower essences. I've always worked with them on my own, choosing what seems right to me..and yep, maybe it's hard to believe the foundation they came from..but once again, even though I was a doubting Thomas about them, they have proved helpful to me. I think that just because something can't be proved through the western paradigm, that doesn't mean it doesn't exist. It just means we have no way of measuring, or are incapable of seeing something from a different perspective.

[JanCarol]

Awesome Freespirit!  We are our own best practitioners.  

 

When I studied flower essences I only got confused.  But if I were guided through the maze - I might consider them.

 

I am not talking about "medical studies," the thing about homeopathy, is you only ever get case studies - the nature of the beast defies the western model RCT.  That does not mean I'm dissing it - I'm just saying - it's only water and sugar tablets.  For awhile the British NHS would pay for homeopathic treatment, but they pulled it out of the scheme a few years back.

 

Peter Gotzschke has nothing good to say about it - but then, he doesn't like acupuncture, either (and I do).  He just flatly said, "do it if you like, but it doesn't work."

 

These lighter, "fluffier" more "woo" treatments may be MORE helpful for sensitive people in withdrawal, because the risk factor is much lower.

 

And yes, I believe IV vitamin therapy can turn you around for a time - that's kind of the point of it.  I think you're suggesting that the treatment "held" for 6 months, when coupled with homeopathy? 

 

They are talking of making IV vitamin therapy illegal here in Australia.  My Ortho doc practices it, I'll be curious to see what she says.  So many things are illegal here.  Like DHEA.  And Kava kava.  And raw milk.  I hate to see the options restricted, even though I wouldn't recommend anyone I know for it - you never know when you might need something like that.  And then have to do "medical tourism" to get it in Mexico or India or something.

[JanCarol]

Now for a good one:  my osteopath in Indiana, Dr. B.  I have no idea if he understood withdrawal syndrome - fact is he prescribed zoloft and paxil for me back in the early 90's when they were "fashionable."  But he also looked at my thyroid and other causes.  And he was not invested in the drugs - when I went back off of them, he just grunted, and went about his work.

 

What was amazing about him was his hands on work.  We, his patients, called it "bouncing."  We would go to him to get "bounced."  He could take an emotional twist and turn it around physically and energetically.  He used to say of Reiki and such that you can rearrange the energetics of a situation all you wanted - but if you didn't also address the physical thing, the energetics would "snap back" to the physical grid.  He was a former Air Force jet pilot, and that's what it felt like - he would hold your head, or your sacrum, or your clavicles or spine, and you could feel him "flying" his healing jet through your nervous system.  It was like an internal hot tub, only electrical, emotional, mechanical, all at once.  

 

He called it "cranial-sacral," but it was unlike any other cranial-sacral treatment I've received.  It effectively aligned physical, emotional, and mental states, and I credit his care for staving off some of my worst moods when I was bouncing like a ball from all the drugs I tried to appease a bad marriage, and bad situation.  Later, when I was with the Yogi (think pseudo-religious narcissist), I was forbidden from seeing Dr. B - and the Yogi would just "undo" all of Dr. B's good work and influence as soon as possible to retain control over my being, so I fell into grave disrepair.

 

Dr. B wrote a book about it, but the thing is - he is the only one I know who can do what he did.  So if you read his book, it just tells you to get these treatments - but as far as I know, he's the only one who could give them.  Even his teachers were surpassed by his method.

 

Sadly, Dr. B is no longer with us - he was killed in a highway crash.  He was a Freedom Rider, escorting dead soldiers home with a motorbike honor guard.  A semi truck crossed the median and plowed into the motorcycles.  They say that, he wouldn't have made it even if he'd had a helmet on.  (I thought it ironic that Mr. Cranial Sacral didn't wear a helmet).

 

I sense that, if he were alive today, he would listen to us, and prescribe to help with tapers, once he understood what was needed.  Sadly, we lost a really good one there.

 

Indianapolis has an osteopathic hospital.  Some of the osteopaths I met were all crystals and light and energetics, and others were more like MD's.  So again, you have to judge for yourself.  But osteopathy is a different way of looking at the system.

 

Sadly, in Australia, osteopaths are not distinguished from chiropractors.  As someone who was injured by chiropractic technique, I don't think too highly of them.  The crunching of bones only inflamed the ligaments that were causing the pain.  

 

Another good one for healing:  Trager massage.  This is a form of massage which, instead of digging around traumatically in sore muscles, gently moves the joints until the muscles release.  It is emotionally gentle, as well as physically stabilizing.  Dr. B wanted me to go to massage - but only to Trager technique. 

 

My MD friend interned with Dr. B for a 6 month period, to try and absorb his methods.  As she put it, she didn't learn to "bounce" the patient, but was able to "nudge" the patient in a good direction.  I had her "nudge" me, and her perception was exactly right.  It was good, but not as potent or as effective as the original, sadly deceased, Dr. B.

 

There are real healers out there.

[freespirit]

Awesome Freespirit!  We are our own best practitioners.  

 

When I studied flower essences I only got confused.  But if I were guided through the maze - I might consider them.

 

I am not talking about "medical studies," the thing about homeopathy, is you only ever get case studies - the nature of the beast defies the western model RCT.  That does not mean I'm dissing it - I'm just saying - it's only water and sugar tablets.  For awhile the British NHS would pay for homeopathic treatment, but they pulled it out of the scheme a few years back.

 

Peter Gotzschke has nothing good to say about it - but then, he doesn't like acupuncture, either (and I do).  He just flatly said, "do it if you like, but it doesn't work."

 

These lighter, "fluffier" more "woo" treatments may be MORE helpful for sensitive people in withdrawal, because the risk factor is much lower.

 

And yes, I believe IV vitamin therapy can turn you around for a time - that's kind of the point of it.  I think you're suggesting that the treatment "held" for 6 months, when coupled with homeopathy? 

 

They are talking of making IV vitamin therapy illegal here in Australia.  My Ortho doc practices it, I'll be curious to see what she says.  So many things are illegal here.  Like DHEA.  And Kava kava.  And raw milk.  I hate to see the options restricted, even though I wouldn't recommend anyone I know for it - you never know when you might need something like that.  And then have to do "medical tourism" to get it in Mexico or India or something.

 

I've always had a more sensitive nervous system and have responded better to more gentle treatments. I don't consider them lighter, fluffier or more woo. I consider that they actually work, and have virtually no negative side effects. I think part of being more sensitive is a deeper awareness of subtle changes that occur. I also work daily with qi gong, which is working with energy. I do that because it's of more benefit than anything else I've ever tried.

 

About the homeopathy...I would see the naturopath and be given some homeopathy. At times, I was in desperation and would walk away thinking, "this is all he's giving me to deal with this??" and within 2-3 days, I would start feeling significantly better. For example, I was having terrible insomnia during grief. He gave me homeopathy that helps the body produce melatonin..and the 2nd night, I started sleeping through the night again.

 

Homeopathy, at least what I take, has no sugar in it...it does not contain a measurable amount of the original substance, at least not measurable by western standards. It has the impression of what was once there, much like the flower remedies.

 

As I said, I don't give a **** what anyone's opinions are, especially a western doctor. My body/mind, my rules. Listening to doctors and others was what almost killed me. I don't go there anymore. My naturopath is not a big fan of supplements and doesn't necessarily agree with me taking vit c and quercetin twice daily. But without them, I can eat almost nothing...so, yep, my body, my rules. He respects it, even if he doesn't agree with it.

 

There are some good practitioners out there, and also some really terrible ones. I've seen some of both.

 

I saw a qi gong practitioner a few months after jumping off. Her "guides" told her I needed to simplify my qi gong practice..by stopping everything I had been doing that got me off 7 medications..and doing "her" way of practice. Even though I've done shamanic practice and other such things where there is guidance coming from somewhere...I cannot abide by someone's "guides" overriding what I know is true for me. I follow an inner guidance, which comes from a lot of experimentation and feeling/trusting what works and what doesn't for me. It's a continually changing, constantly evolving process. I did what I needed to do with this practitioner, which was to run and never go back. I refuse to work with anyone who doesn't respect that I know best what is right for me.

[Mort81]

Somebody who can give you hope is a good healer. When I wake up and feel hopeful about my recovery than I can feel a difference in my day.Ive also been to several NP's and homeopaths, reike practitioners and the only thing that helps is someone telling me its going to keep getting better. None of the supplements worked, in fact they may have agrivated my condition. Even though nobody around me understands Sometimes all I need is someone to listen and emphasize.That's what I believe, our bodies know how to heal and overtime it will happen. The problem is we don't know how long it takes and how do we stay positive and enjoy life when there is a s-----t Storm inside of us. That's the key for me. I found one person who gives me hope and I didn't have to pay for her advice, my mother. She may not totally understand but she gives me hope. I believe in her. She's been through the gauntlet and has seem her fair share of recovery. Hold onto hope

 

Mort

[LEFin]

I wish I was there to assist people struggling with weaning off antidepressants before, but had a lot to figure out myself! I have been on several antidepressants throughout my life (seroquel,paxil,trazadone,apo-methoprazine,zoloft and finally on celexa) It's been a long road, but I want to share how I recently weaned off celexa. It was the best transition off antidepressants thus far. My naturopath assisted me greatly with giving me a solid plan to follow to avoid all the awful side effects. My biggest piece of advice is: As much as you want to be off the horrible stuff..DON'T RUSH IT. It will lead unfortuanitly to a relapse. It makes things much more difficult in the long run.

 

My naturopath suggested in order for my body/mind to properly adjust follow this schedule:

Reduce daily intake by 5mg (eg. first 2 weeks drop to 15mg...then if feeling alright after minimum two weeks, you can drop another 5mg to 10mg dosages/day,etc.)

Continue this process till off celexa ( It took me 3 months to get off celexa)

Most importantly you need to have something effective to replace your serotonin levels, etc. changing through this process.

I was taking a product called Neuropass by a brand called Pascoe ( available at a lot of health food stores/or online) fairly expensive (approx. $60/100 tabs) but worth it!!

Also a supplement called Gaba (tablet) or Glycine (powder to mix with water)

Ashwaganda root is also a great supplement to assist with calming/mood swings

 

Just to give a quick reference :

started at 20mg/day....reduced to 15mg/day - take 1 tablet of neuropass morning and night - 1 tablet gaba, ashwaganda root and vit.D in the morning with food

15mg/day..-10mg/day - take 1 tablet neuropass 3 times per day (morning, lunch, dinner) - 1 tablet gaba, ashwaganda root and vit. D in the morning with food

10mg/day...-5mg/day - take 2 tablets neuropass twice daily ( morning/night) - 1 tablet gaba, ashwaganda root and vit. D in the morning with food

5mg..-discontinued use of celexa - take 2 tablets 3 times per day (morning, lunch, dinner) - 1 tablet gaba, ashwaganda root and vit D in the morning with food.

 

I know this is long, but I sincerely hope it has helped someone struggling and trying to feel hopeful to get off celexa!

Be patient.

 

Laura

Edited January 24, 2017 by scallywag
moved from Celexa tapering topic

[Altostrata]

Good to hear you tapered gradually, LEFin. You got good advice there.

 

I don't know what the expensive supplement Neuropass might have done to help. It does not support serotonin -- it contains some herbs that are supposed to be calming.

 

"Replacing serotonin levels" wouldn't help anyway; contrary to what many doctors believe, withdrawal symptoms are not due to a lack of serotonin but a lack of the specific drug. See What is withdrawal syndrome?

 

Psychiatric drugs establish an artificial balance among all the hormones of the body. When they are reduced, the balance is thrown off and the autonomic nervous system in particular throws off alarm signals we sense as withdrawal symptoms.

 

Most likely, your rate of taper was appropriate for you and it was coincidental that you were taking Neuropass and the other supplements. I hope you will be cautious about taking any other psychiatric drugs. Thank you for stopping by and sharing your information.

 

Please start a topic for yourself in the Introductions forum, which is also a collection of case histories, and post there now and then and let us know how you are doing.

Edited January 24, 2017 by scallywag
moved from Celexa tapering topic

[JanCarol]

I just learned that "bouncing" like Dr. B used, is used in an Australian Therapy called "Bowen Therapy."  Aussies will have heard of it.  I see signs for practitioners of it frequently, haven't tried it myself.

 

One more comment about massage therapists - my lovely one just retired, and she was so otherworldly that I would have a shamanic experience on her table, seeing colors and mandalas, and feeling emotions as things got moved and massaged.  The new massage therapist is more physical, excellent in a physical way - so I guess I need to let go of the fairyland massage and get more physical.

 

BUT - of all the massage therapists I've had before, 2 of them have done permanent damage.  One was right after the ski accident which tore my ACL.  She was the wife of a Chiropractor, and practiced "Alexandrian" technique (I think the home office is in Indiana).  I told her to leave my knee alone, Dr. B had just "knitted" what he could, and with time, I felt I was going to heal totally.  But she decided, for whatever reason, that a manipulation was in order, and she did a thing that popped my knee, causing intense pain, and permanent damage.  I might have healed, but for what she did on that table.  LESSON LEARNED:  speak up in treatment, even if you think you are being "bad" or "rude" or whatever.  It's YOUR body.  That 60 minute massage in 1998 - I am still feeling the pain from, almost 20 years later!

 

Another similar one, the massage therapist decided that my tailbone, my sacral chakra, had a block in it, and she pressed her finger into the base of my tailbone.  It would never happen today, as now you have to wear underwear to a massage (at least in Australia) to prevent accusations of "sexual assualt."  THIS came close to sexual assault, as she was right near my anus, and pressing on my tailbone.  It WAS a massage technique, and I just went with it, assuming that she knew what she was doing.

 

Her fingernail burst a capillary or blood vessel or something, and after that I had a hemorrhoid.  That 60 minute massage, I had the damage repaired 2 years ago by a colo-rectal surgeon.  

 

LOL Free - don't you love it when SOMEONE ELSE'S spirit guides know what is right for you?  As if you are not self aware enough to talk to your own spirit guides, or totem animals, or God, or Body, or Angels, or whatever, and find out what you need for yourself?  That's as arrogant as so many MD's we've run up agains!