NewBeginning: my withdrawal story

[Newbeginning]

Cutting 10% a month is too fast, I think...

 

I was tolerating 10% so far. Keep in mind I take Prozac too. My last cut was 5% and I didn't tolerate it...In the future, I might need to cut less than 10% for Effexor.

 

Lexy: I count beads. Once I get to where one bead is more than 10% I'm planning on using a compounding pharmacy. If we weight them, we still can't cut beads so compounding or liquid is the only way, right?

[Lexy]

Do your beads vary in size? Mine do Effexor XR brand name, I count and weigh them.

Alto recommends gradually starting the liquid.

[Newbeginning]

Mine are generic. They don't vary that much in size. I don't weight them because so far just reducing 1 bead per cut was not giving me any issues. 

 

My beads have a few smaller beads. I think they might be filler. I avoid taking those and stick to taking the bigger ones that appear to be roughly the same size.

 

I'm not fond of making the liquid. I think it's too easy to mess it up if it doesn't dissolve well or the stability of the solution changes. Id rather work with compounding and it's often covered by insurance and much more precise.

[Newbeginning]

I'm in desperate need of help. Anxiety and depression have gotten much more severe the last few days. At first I thought it was PMS, but today I had the morning panic I was having right after my Effexor cut in January (tapering Effexor and Prozac-never been on benzos before). I'm feeling like as bad as I did in January, but these symptoms had improved a lot over time and after 5 months they were a lot more bearable.

 

I don't know what caused it. I've done EMDR twice the last 2 weeks. I've also been taking a benzo 0.25mg xanax very occasionally (like once every 7-10 days) for the last 8 weeks.

 

I know benzos are not good and I never intended to use them, but after 5 months of severe anxiety and depression and every supplement I tried either not working or making me worse, I thought occasional use would just give me a little peace from the non-stop intrusive thoughts, dread, worry. I didn't react negatively to them (to 1 0.25mg Xanax pill)  right away or after 10 days, so I thought I tolerated them for very occasional use.

 

Anyone else reacted negatively to EMDR or ocassional benzos in antidepressant withdrawal? How long did it last once I quit? This is HELL. I don't think I can survive months of this. I'll end up in a hospital. 

 

Please help! Any advice is appreciated.

[bubble]

I'm sorry things are rough for you but I really don't think it will last long.

 

This could well be Xanax but I will check with other mods. This might be why we are so strongly advising against occasional use. 8 weeks is a pretty long time and every 7-10 days can be pretty disruptive for the brain.

 

What is important when we experience panic is not to panic. Much easier said than done but this is your opportunity to practice coping skills. Deep breathing, focus on breath and grounding are my first aid for panic and when I'm going through it. Grounding means focusing our attention on let's say 5 things you can see around you, 5 things you can hear, touch, smell. Maybe something to taste. Regular practice of mindfulness helps a lot when panic strikes (and other symptoms).

 

The second thing is conciously working on countering secondary fear. One of the basic ingredients of a panic attack is fear. It feels like we are dying and losing our mind. So counteracting this means reminding ourselves: these are just chemicals flooding my system, they will run their course and they can't harm me. The other thing is working on countering catastrophic thoughts: this isn't going to last for months and I'm not going to end up in hospital because I will calmly observe what is going on knowing it won't hurt me and it will pass.

 

Lately I added listening to a guy called Mooji which incredibly calming and compasdionate voice and messages. Will look for one video that Shep posted for me. 

 

Hang in there. This will pass.

[Newbeginning]

Thank you Bubble. After my last cut in January, the panic lasted 5 months!! Even when it got better, anxiety and depression were not gone. So even after a 6 month hold, I'm still in withdrawal. I'm under quite a bit of stress, but even with that I never thought withdrawal from a 5% cut would last this long! That's why I'm scared of how long it will last...

 

Sometimes I think I'm in a real depression now and it's not just withdrawal at this point. I've been in therapy (individual and group) since January, but it has not helped that much.

 

I do use mindfulness techniques of observing/describing intrusive thoughts/emotions and deep breathing. For me they don't work as well during morning terrors. I think they might help me when anxiety is more moderate, but not sure. The intensity is so high in the morning that deep breathing doesn't seem to touch it much. Trying to focus on the breath is hard too because I get sensations of dread/doom that are very distracting. I will keep trying. Maybe will make myself get out of bed and put on a guided meditation. Maybe that will help more than doing it on my own. I don't know. 

 

I do tell myself it's withdrawal, but I have some real life stress and when I'm having the morning terrors, those very real worries attack me and I can't tell myself it's just chemical because the things I'm worrying about are real. 

[bubble]

3 hours ago, Newbeginning said:

I'm in desperate need of help. Anxiety and depression have gotten much more severe the last few days. At first I thought it was PMS, but today I had the morning panic I was having right after my Effexor cut in January (tapering Effexor and Prozac-never been on benzos before). I'm feeling like as bad as I did in January, but these symptoms had improved a lot over time and after 5 months they were a lot more bearable.

 

You see how a wave can make us see like we've been very bad always and like we always will be? Just look at what you wrote above.

 

Also you just can't be in panic for months. Maybe we are using the wrong terms here. I understood you were talking about a panic attack: a short and self-limiting but horribly intense attack of panic and dread with shaking, increased heart bit and breathing and horrible fear we are dying and losing our minds at the same time. This can be repeated over and over again but don't last continuously.

 

I would say the use of xanax triggered it and now you just see everything black and are fed up with all of this. Which is perfectly understandable.

 

Just keep practicing your coping skills. It might not feel like they are producing an immediate effect but they are healing you on the inside.

 

Here is a video by Mooji.

 

Be kind to yourself. The stressful situation you mention is no doubt contributing.

 

Even if this is your 'depression' the same rules apply: you will just have to cope with it.

 

Believe it or not simple breathing, mindfulness, thai chi, etc. can be much more effecient than a hospital. The trouble might be that in your hearts of hearts you still believe hospital (and drugs) are the real thing and all of this is just a mumbo jumbo... have you been following Shep's thread to see the real power of such coping strategies?

 

 

[Newbeginning]

Thanks Bubble. I know it has improved, but it was 5 months of hell. And even after 5 months it was not gone. It was more bearable, but still at 30-50%, depending on the day. Is it common to have withdrawal after a small cut for this long?? I just never thought it would take this long to stabilize.

 

By panic I mean the "morning terrors" that recur for hours. There may be a few minutes in between, but the first 2 hours of every morning they come back every few minutes. The next 2 hours every 20 min, and then it decreases more until they subside on the late afternoon. 

 

I don't think mindfulness is BS, but I've tried the techniques they taught me in therapy and they have not helped as much as I was hoping. I've read there are some yoga poses that can help with the morning terror, but never tried them. I will look at Schep's thread for sure. Don't know how much I can absorb right now because my brain feels drained from dread, depression and lack of enough sleep. If I can't absorb it now, will try again when less distraught.

 

Have you found relief from severe anxiety and severe depression using these techniques? Even withdrawal-induced depression? 

 

Could you expand a bit on how they heal us from the inside, even if we don't see immediate results? I was hoping by observing my thoughts/emotions mindfully, it would improve my mood (depression) and/or decrease the intensity/frequency of intrusive thoughts or of things that triggered anxiety and crying spells. I did feel somewhat more in control when attacked by triggers or intrusive thoughts, but not much more improvement. The intensity and frequency didn't change. And mood didn't improve. 

[Newbeginning]

I was wondering if there is a thread for EMDR? Or could one of the mods tell me if other people have reacted negatively to occasional use of benzos or to EMDR? Trying to figure out what caused this worsening so I can correct it.

 

Also, is there any way to know why it's taking me so long to stabilize from my 5% cut in January? After 6 months, I was still struggling at 30-40% of withdrawal symptoms. Are there other cases of people who take that long to stabilize after such a small cut?

 

I know I should have waited longer after stabilizing from the macca before cutting 5%. I know stress is making withdrawal worse. But after 6 months I don't know that I'll ever stabilize! Is it only going to happen once I have less stress? A lot of this stress is really unavoidable for me right now.

 

Thanks so much.

 

 

[bubble]

Maybe it would be good to start a thread on the benzo subforum here and ask about the effects of occasional benzo use.

 

I hope I'll have more energy for replying to your other questions soon

[Happy2Heal]

Quote

Have you found relief from severe anxiety and severe depression using these techniques? Even withdrawal-induced depression? 

 

I know you were asking someone else, but I thought I might be able to help, forgive me for jumping in, I don't mean to be rude.

 

 

mindfulness, relaxation, meditation all help with symptoms. (I also use a couple of CDs with relaxation and hypnosis that have helped me thru the worst of the panic. I would listen to them over and over again thru the rough hours. Literally I would listen to them all night long) I have  been able to get to a state where I am able to breathe deeply and have a calm body. It takes a lot of practice, but it works if you keep at it.

I personally am less successful with disturbing thoughts but I'm working on that too.

 

here's some suggestions for books that have helped me: anything by Rick Hanson, including "Hardwiring Happiness"

 

"Bouncing Back" by Linda Graham

 

I believe both books explain how meditation etc change your brain. One in more scientific terms than the other, if I recall (Rick Hanson's books go into the science behind it all)

 

it really works, it's just something you need to keep at

you won't notice immediate effects, beyond the fact that working on this is a good distraction. the changes are subtle at first and you may think that nothing is happening, but keep at it, and you will, in time, be amazed at how you can calm yourself instantly by focusing on your breath etc.

 

 

[scallywag]

A quick thought: EMDR is a technique that intends to resolve trauma. Intense therapeutic techniques are sometimes best left until after tapering and withdrawal, perhaps as much as a year of stability after last dose.

[Happy2Heal]

7 minutes ago, scallywag said:

A quick thought: EMDR is a technique that intends to resolve trauma. Intense therapeutic techniques are sometimes best left until after tapering and withdrawal, perhaps as much as a year of stability after last dose.

 

to expand a little on this, I think EMDR needs to be done by a trained psychologist (I had a few sessions of EMDR, it was NOT at all helpful)

 

it *is* intense, I can't imagine it helping anyone in WD.

 

[bubble]

That was my gut feeling after I read a bit about the technique. It didn't really say how it work in the sense of how it affects the brain phisiology but it would inevitably stir things up. And out brains need calming.

 

Thank you for a great description of how meditation works HPpy2Heal aka Catnap I've put Hardwiring Happiness down as a book I want to buy myself as a present and read this summer.

 

I do body scan mindfulness meditation and as you describe it can calm me down and distract. And I also noticed that I react calmer in challenging situations. Small but perceptible difference. 

[scallywag]

Topic on EMDR:

 

[stan]

On 30/04/2017 at 7:27 AM, Newbeginning said:

 

I was tolerating 10% so far. Keep in mind I take Prozac too. My last cut was 5% and I didn't tolerate it...In the future, I might need to cut less than 10% for Effexor.

 

Lexy: I count beads. Once I get to where one bead is more than 10% I'm planning on using a compounding pharmacy. If we weight them, we still can't cut beads so compounding or liquid is the only way, right?

hi,

 

today, technically each bead has the same amount of activ product, all beads are similar in amount of  the drug, hopefully, we are in 2017, this is no problem today, they are not handmade

why are they different in size? it is the coat which is not important, they pass a bath, no need to be strict on the coat as it needs to be for the drug of a bead

the weight  of coat being different, if you weight  two capsules, it is different, but the coat of beads, not the amount of drug  of a bead

i do not know if i good explained with my special english

 

[Newbeginning]

On 7/3/2017 at 5:11 AM, stan said:

hi,

 

today, technically each bead has the same amount of activ product, all beads are similar in amount of  the drug, hopefully, we are in 2017, this is no problem today, they are not handmade

why are they different in size? it is the coat which is not important, they pass a bath, no need to be strict on the coat as it needs to be for the drug of a bead

the weight  of coat being different, if you weight  two capsules, it is different, but the coat of beads, not the amount of drug  of a bead

i do not know if i good explained with my special english

 

 

Thanks Stan. I think they are different sizes because some of them are filler and not active drug. I don't take those little ones. At least this is the case in my beads.

[Newbeginning]

 

To follow-up on my last update: I recovered from the latest worsening in 2 weeks. Was back to where I was prior to worsening. Never figured out if it was Xanax or the EMDR. Once I felt better, I restarted EMDR 2 weeks ago.

 

Well, anxiety and depression and fatigue have worsened about 30% again. Could it be the EMDR?

 

The only other thing that could be is that the 2 weeks before my period I'm getting worse withdrawal, but that was not happening 3 months ago...

 

Why is is taking me so long to stabilize this time? It's been 7 months. I'm like 50% better than in January after the 5% Effexor cut, but I never thought it would take this long! Is this common?

[Newbeginning]

I'm not sure how I missed all the previous posts from Happytoheal, Scallywag and Bubble. Thanks everyone for your input!

 

I find it so hard to keep up any habits, but want to meditate regularly. How often do you all do it and for how many minutes? I tried the hour long mantras and could not keep up with them. Currently doing 5-10 min guided meditation twice a week, but need to do it more often. 

 

About EMDR, my therapist doesn't think it is what's making me worse. Since I'm unsure if its that or hormones, I'm giving it a few weeks to see if I improve. If I don't, or get worse, then I know it's the EMDR and not my hormones.

 

I have another question. The neuropsychiatrist I'm seeing wants me to get an MRI of the brain twice: once with contrast and once without contrast. So scared to react, especially to the dye. I got a catscan with contrast last year on my abdomen and didn't react, but that was before I was unstable in withdrawal (was tapering but stable). 

[Lexy]

 I also have a die done once due to the chest pain I don't think I had any reaction to that . 

 Why are they saying you need a brain scan? How have your symptoms been lately? Are  they getting a little better? I hope so . 

I had been having less intense symptoms except for stress and anxiety. That's why I'm freaking out at what doctor said...,

 My Pdoc  wants me to go take a blood test for lupus he says I should be over the physical symptoms .   He noticed a rash on my leg and I told him I was still having low-grade fevers.   I feel like I'm on a  roller coaster just when I think I'm  Getting better Iit all falls down again. 

 

Tryky hope to hear some good news from you!

[Newbeginning]

Hi Lexy,

 

Brain scan is to rule out anatomical issues. Just standard practice for neurologist. I doubt they'll find anything, unless I do have an anatomical issue. 

 

I've been holding since January because after a 5% cut in January, I developed severe anxiety. My symptoms had improved about 50% over 7 months, which is extremely freaking slow. But I was still very depressed and still anxious. Then I worsened when I re-started coffee so I stopped it. Worsened again when I started vit D, so I stopped it. Worsened again when I started xanax once a week, so I stopped it. But now I seem to be getting worse from a therapy called EMDR for trauma. I was having that while taking Xanax, so maybe it was that and not Xanax that made me worse. 

 

So will be stopping that if I'm still worse next week. 

 

How long have you been holding? It wouldnt hurt to rule out other things like Lupus. Are you still in school?

 

If you're getting better, then thats a good sign. Try not to obsess about what the dr. said. You probably just have stress from all this or a low grade viral issue. Easier said than done, but we really have enough real things to worry about to add future things that may not happen to the list

 

Hugs, 

 

 

[Newbeginning]

I'm starting to consider going on an antidepressant or another med. I have not stabilized in 7 months after just a 5% cut. I can't tolerate the severity of depression any longer. I improved some, but then keep worsening again. I know about waves and windows, but after 7 months, I don't see how or when I'll stabilize, and it's become unbearable. Overall, I'm not much better than 7 months ago. 

 

 I stopped EMDR 10 days ago and don't feel any better. I thought it was the EMDR causing a wave of worsening. I had an MRI with contrast 3 days ago. Could that be prolonging improving from the EMDR? In the past, when I worsened I recovered within 2 weeks of stopping what caused the worsening. But that doesn't seem to be happening this time. I stopped EMDR 10 days ago and don't feel any better.

 

I'm really not much better than 7 months ago. Starting to get desperate for relief. Also, looking at my signature, my attempts to taper for the last 1.5 years have failed. Could it be I can't cut any lower without unbearable withdrawal?

 

I've read several people in this forum who could no longer tolerate their taper and added a drug and felt better. I'm not functioning at all. Been suicidal for 7 months and tempted to go to the hospital more than once. 

 

Please help. I'm desperate.

 

 

[Lexy]

How are you? Haven't heard from you.

[Newbeginning]

On 9/8/2017 at 6:44 PM, Lexy said:

How are you? Haven't heard from you.

I was doing better up until 2 weeks ago lol. Gotta laugh at how unpredictable this ride from hell is. How are you Lexy?

[Newbeginning]

So after 4 months of being ok (few days of anxiety once a month after stress or PMS, but thats manegeable), I'm in a wave of withdrawal. 1 week of neuroemotions followed by 1 week of drowsiness all day. Still going on.

 

I didn't change my dose. I have not been able to taper for a whole year now!! My last cut was just 7% and resulted in 9 months of severe withdrawal. Then stability for 4 months.4

 

I trust this will pass as it is improving, but I'm now wondering how I will cut again if I'm being hit with a wave of withdrawal 3 months after stabilizing? I normally just wait for one month of being stable before cutting, but now I'm at a loss. How do I know when to cut? How do I know when I'm stable if I'm being hit with waves like this out of nowhere? 

 

Nothing changed. Not even stress. 

 

Need some advice please!

 

 

[Newbeginning]

I tried to stop Melatonin 3mg after 2 months on it. Got extremely drowsy. Am I supposed to taper it?

[Altostrata]

Newbeginning, what's your status with melatonin now?

 

You got drowsy when you tried to stop it??

[Newbeginning]

Hi Alto,

 

I managed to decrease 20% of the dose in 1 month but endured too many withdrawal symptoms. Flu like malaise,  waves of drowsiness, insomnia, muscle pain. So I'm holding for a few weeks and will restart taper soon. I was only increasing by 1 drop (less than 5% of the dose) every 4 to 7 days, but at that rate I cant function.

 

I'm now at 25 drops, which is almost 3mg. Will try decreasing by 1 drop, holding for at least 1 week or as long as needed to stabilize. Its going to take forever and I'll have to hold the psych med taper while I stop melatonin. But at least I'm feeling well now. No withdrawal. 

 

I'm finally getting 8 hours of sleep again, after 6 months of insomnia caused by taking too high a dose of melatonin for 2 months and then trying to stop it. 

 

Should have done my research on melatonin dose. I went too high thinking it was a low dose (3mg) ,and my sensitized nervous system didn't handle it well at all. 

[Altostrata]

Hello, @Newbeginning, how are you doing?

[Newbeginning]

Hello,

 

I have not posted here in a long time. I really need some advice. I will update my signature with my med history too, but I'm providing a quick summary of the recent developments here. 

 

I've been holding Effexor and Prozac at 6mg each since 2018. I am also holding melatonin at 1.5mg (it gives me withdrawal too). My plan was to taper melatonin first, but the taper got complicated and I've been holding the dose of melatonin for a year. 

 

I was completely stable from withdrawal for years, but still had severe side effects (chronic fatigue, anhedonia/avolition, low stress tolerance with stress causing severe anxiety). None of these were withdrawal symptoms though. Fatigue and anhedonia started on the meds and didn't worsen in withdrawal. Anxiety I've always had. Withdrawal made anxiety worse. Still, once I stabilized from withdrawal, I would only get the severe anxiety when I was very stressed. The rest of the time I was fine, so I was stable from all withdrawal. 

 

Few years ago I developed insomnia when I took 3mg Melatonin for a month and then tried to stop it. I endured insomnia for months before I gave in and used hydroxyzine 5mg 3 times a week. I used it for months with no issues and it helped me start sleeping again. I had no insomnia for a couple of years until I started using caffeine to be able to function with fatigue and avolition. After few months, caffeine stopped helping and insomnia returned.

 

I endured insomnia for 2 years, tried everything except meds (other than occasionally). 3 months ago I was desperate to sleep more and took hydroxyzine for a month so I could try to start functioning again. I started at 5mg but developed tolerance every 2-3 days, so I progressively increased it to 100mg over a 3-4 week period.

 

I tapered it for a week and stopped it with no issues, but after a month I stared having increasingly worse anxiety and depression. I realized it was withdrawal, as withdrawal anxiety and depression feel very distinct to me. I gave it a month and it was just worsening, so I reinstated at 5 mg. It didn't help. I gradually increased to 25mg and got relief.

 

My goal was to stabilize and do a quicker taper, since I only took it for a month. I was ok on the 25 mg for 10 days are getting ready to taper, when withdrawal came back. I increased to 30mg and after 7-10 days the same thing happened. I'm now stable on 40mg. 

 

My question is: Is this tolerance, or should I keep increasing the dose until I stay stable at least 2-4 weeks? 

 

Any advice would be so appreciated. I've been doing this hell for 10 years now, but this withdrawal that keeps coming back is new to me. 

 

Thanks so much!