NewBeginning: my withdrawal story

[Lexy]

You seem to have stopped updating on your intro at about the same time as I did.

Tapering effexor is harsh more so on lower doses.

Have you of doing micro tapering instead of a once a month 10% cut? To me it's a much softer landing.

Or instead of a 10% cut once a month why not do 5%/bimonthly taper?

[Altostrata]

NewBeginning, I hear there have been some positive changes in your tapering. Please let us know how you're doing.

[Newbeginning]

Hello,

 

Been wanting to update for a while, but there's so freaking much to catch up with now that I feel somewhat better, that I can't find time or energy to do everything that I'd like to do! I'm not complaining though. It's stressful, but I'd much rather have this stress than the 'stress' of being apathetic.

 

So when I decreased prozac to 10mg, I was scared and disappointed that the apathy did not improve. Since that was half my initial dose, I was really looking forward to some improvement and was quite discouraged when it didn't happen. That was about 6 weeks ago. I posted about it here and got some good feedback on things to think about. I also got encouragement from friends that also experienced apathy on SSRIs, who reassured me that I would likely feel better once I hit a dose that is low enough.

 

Then I got to thinking about it and it occurred to me that I needed to push myself to do positive things, because motivation results from action, not the other way around (a basic principle of behavioral therapy). I had stopped pushing myself long ago because it never resulted in increased joy or motivation. Just more fatigue and disappointment. Pushing was increasing my apathy because it fed my hopelesness and depressed mood. Seeing myself fail repeatedly was not healthy. Not to mention how physically, mentally and emotionally exhausting it was. Something so many of you can relate to.

 

However, if the apathy had indeed started improving, I would only be able to know if there was improvement if I pushed. I had to find out if pushing would now be energizing/motivating, as it is supposed to be and often is among people who are not drugged. It was not easy, but I did. I pushed myself to do small positive things for several days, and I noticed that for the first time in months (years?) I did feel a sense of reward afterwards.

 

So I kept pushing and over several days I noticed my motivation was gradually improving. The energy improvement was more gradual, over several weeks.

 

To be sure, I still get more tired than I used to years ago when doing normal daily activities like showering, but it is quite less fatigue than what I had before. Motivation and energy are by no means perfect, but 30-50% improved, depending on the day.

 

I definitely can take care of myself now (showering, appearance, health), whereas before I didn't care. I also have recovered a sense of "responsibility" or fear of negative consequences that the apathy had completely suppressed. So, for example, I don't miss deadlines to pay bills or register for school or do other important tasks that if neglected may result in late fees or other negative consequences (such as people perceiving me as irresponsible).

 

As for the taper process, I'm keeping the effexor dose steady while cutting on prozac. I realize this is not the recommended way to do it, but in my case it has worked for the best because the most debilitating symptoms I was having were side effects of prozac. I needed to get some relief from that so that I could at least function, and so I wouldn't be despaired and tempted to taper faster and destabilize my system further.

 

Tapering prozac has become a little harder now that I'm using the liquid. I'd much rather use capsules and count pellets like I do with effexor, but that's not available. I find the liquid harder to measure. I'm using a 3mm syringe, but it's still hard to get it right where I needed. For one, the liquid seems to be uneven once it reaches the target mark in the syringe (higher on one side of the syringe than on the other). Hopefully I won't get withdrawals from those errors in measurement. Thankfully prozac does not affect me as strongly as effexor in terms of withdrawal, so I'm hoping the small measurements errors won't affect me. I need to read that section in the forum (liquid prozac) to get some tips.

 

Right now I'm stressed about everything in my life that I need to catch up on. Neglecting your life for years and then "coming back" to clean house can be quite challenging. So much stuff needs done. My health has taken a toll (weight, cholesterol, blood sugar, bad eating habits, poor fitness level); my house is a mess (not dirty but I don't know where everything is, and so much stuff is expired!); my to do lists seem unending; and I look back at a lot of time lost/wasted and it's hard not to be filled with grief or regret/guilt.

 

But I have to learn something from this, and if nothing else I should learn not to worry. It's not worth it. I touched bottom with the SSRI-induced apathy. It literally felt like a chemical emotional lobotomy. and as long as I'm not there in the pits of drug-induced apathy, I'm ok. I get stressed, but I remember how it was and realize I'm ok and I'm thankful.

 

So that's my update, and I hope it gives others a little hope. Without the hope and encouragement and support I got from many people, I wouldn't have made it this far. I would have harmed myself or gave up on all the things I worked hard to achieve in life. So I hope I can do that for others too. If anyone would like support with apathy, please feel free to PM me or post here.

 

Blessings to everyone in their healing journey,

 

NB

[Newbeginning]

Lexy,

 

I had not seen your post until now. I have updated my signature . I'm not sure microtapering every 2 weeks would work for me. My brain seems to need at least 3 weeks to adapt to new doses. I have had withdrawal symnptoms that only emerged after two or even 3 weeks after tapering, which makes me think my brain needs at least 3 weeks to adjust to dosage changes. I give it 28 days to be safe.

 

And I always cut right after my period to avoid worsened withdrawal during times of hormonal stress (PMS). I have it timed so the drug dosage adaptation period takes place before my body is experiencing hormonal stress. The 28 day cycle works great for this purpose.

 

I have tried going a little over 10% cuts with prozac. My brain has tolerated it, but I'm still experimenting to see how much it can tolerate. I wouldn't do it with effexor because, as you say, it is notoriously harder on the brain. For effexir I never cut more than 10%/month. Also, if I'm tapering prozac more than 10% (15-20%), I do it during school break, so if it affects me I have the sick time to stay home and recover.

 

I also posted in your thread. I'm concerned for you. I sincerely hope you will find some relief soon.

 

Hugs,

 

NB

[Newbeginning]

So I've been having some new symptoms lately and I'm starting to wonder what's going on. I realized the other day I was measuring the dose of prozac wrong at least some of the time.

 

I take the liquid and use a syringe. I had no problems decreasing after one month so I kep going with further decrease. Problem is when I insert syringe in the bottle it gives me two different levels. I see the liquid at the right dosage level but it is in fact much lower. Not sure how to explain this, but the air/bubbles or liquid left over in the syringe after I rinse it create the illusion of the level being higher than it actually is.

 

I may have inadvertedly been taking less than I was supposed to.

 

The thing is I did not get any of the symptoms I had been getting before: dizziness, extreme fatigue. Instead, I got *very* depressed. I am teary and sad all the time. I am so tired and unmotivated I can't function at all. PMS had been getting worse but over the last several months it's gotten longer and even worse, along with new pain in my knees, anger issues, stress intolerance, excessive fatigue (even for PMS).

 

It feels different from withdrawal I've had before. Is it possible to experience completely different symptoms all of a sudden?

 

My question is: if these issues are indeed due to withdrawal, how can I stabilize when I'm not sure exactly at what dose I started messing up? I know I was feeling better for 2 months up until the 21st of August or so. That was about a month ago.

 

Should I increase back to last month's dose and stay there until I see if these symptoms disappear? Or just stay where I am.

 

I need some advice please. I'm not doing well at all and feeling giving up on everything again

 

Thanks everyone for listening and helping,

[Newbeginning]

For those of tapering prozac, is 3 weeks in between cuts enough to notice if there is withdrawal? I'm doing ok with a 15% cut/month taper but was wondering if waiting 3 weeks is enough vs 4 weeks?

 

I have a side effect that is unbearable to me and can't wait to decreasethe dose enough to get rid of it.

 

Thanks!

[bubble]

The symptoms tell us if we are tapering too fast. For some people or even for us in one situation every 3 weeks can be fine and then it can become too fast. That's why we keep repeating to listen to your body which is speaking through symptoms.

 

This question would be best asked in your thread where we could see the context of your particular situation especially since your signature is not really up to date. Why do you think that increased symptoms you are mentioning are a side effect and not a withdrawal symptom?

[Newbeginning]

Thanks Bubble. I will update my signature (thanks for reminder). I posted here because I assumed more people might see this than my intro post?

 

I think it'a side effect because it gets better when I decrease the dose (enough) and worse when I increase. I also have no other withdrawal symptoms. Just this one.

[Altostrata]

Your Intro topic is the place for this type of question. Posting off-topic is the wrong kind of attention.

[Newbeginning]

Sorry if I did something against the protocols. I posted the question in the Prozac taper thread so I didn't think it was off-topic, but will try to keep questions related to my taper on my thread from now on

[Newbeginning]

I was also wondering how soon one notices if a cut has been too much with prozac? I always wait a month between cuts, but since prozac has such a long half life I know withdrawal symptoms can take a lot longer to show. Could they possibly take longer than 4 weeks? How long do they typically take?

[Newbeginning]

Hello,

 

I need some advice. I've been having some of the neuro emotions described in the forum. Anxiety and depression. Never had this before. I was cutting by 15% the prozac and 5-7% effexor with no issues for months.

 

Actually, in August 2015 I inadvertently messed up the dose of liquid prozac. I was measuring wrong without knowing and was taking anywhere between 1ml and 2ml for about 1 month. Got some withdrawal symptoms (neuro emotions but not as bad as they are now, as well as worse PMS). Then went up the dose to the dose I was before destabilizing (2.1ml). Stayed there for several weeks and all the new symptoms resolved.

 

November I reduced 15% of prozac again since I was stable and did ok. I started taking 1.9ml again. I was fine until December when I started 1.6ml. Then neuroemotions started.

 

I'm at a loss because withdrawal could be due to a number of factors this time, which means I don't know how to stabilize again:

 

1) In December I went abroad to see my family and the trip might be a stressor. It didn't feel stressful, but I've noticed things that I could tolerate before are resulting in stressful reactions in me now. So it might be enough stress to trigger withdrawal...

 

2) December was a month after my last cut, so it might be that now that I'm closer to 5mg 15% is too much?

 

3) In november I changed pharmacies and the liquid prozac has a different consistency (more oily and less "sugary"; worse taste). I know dosage is the same, but still...

 

Any of those 3 factors could have played a role.

 

So I'm staying at 1.6ml until I stabilize. Is this the best I can do? Or should I try increasing a bit? Or changing back to previous pharmacy?

 

People say tapering prozac is easier, but it is actually harder to manage because of how long the withdrawal takes to manifest. With effexor I know within a week when there's an issue. With prozav issues can show when it's already time for a new cut. So I'm less able to correct problems before it's too late.

 

Please advice!

[Newbeginning]

So I tried going back to my previous dose of effexor (the dose before my last cut). I've been having some improvements in neuro-emotions (anxiety, fear, dreadful thoughts) and sleep.

 

It's odd because all along withdrawal from effexor manifested within a few days, but I only had these new symptoms about a month after my last cut. I thought if these were withdrawal effects they were most likely from prozac. It is possible they are from both prozac and effexor, but for now I am only increasing effexor and seeing how much I stabilize from that.

 

This whole process is so unpredictable that I'm always afraid of making a very costly mistake. Like right now after I stabilize and wait a month, I have no idea what to do to continue tapering.

 

I want to keep cutting prozac because I think most my apathy is from it, but now that I (apparently) had a withdrawal reaction to effexor even though I was cutting less than 10% per month, I'm concerned about tapering prozac first or tapering both as I was doing with no issues so far...

 

If anyone has any advice I would really appreciate it.

[Petunia]

Hi NB,

I just read through your introduction thread in an attempt to better understand what might be going on, and know what to suggest, but instead, I have more questions.

 

Did you ever read Anatomy of an Epidemic again as Rhi suggested early in your thread?

 

What were the circumstances which led to you being put on medication the first time? You write about depression and anxiety and various symptoms, but I'm still a bit confused about what your original problem/s were. When people say the word 'depression' I'm never sure what they mean. So many different things get lumped under that one term. Did you ever experience apathy before you took your first SSRI?

 

What's the current situation with stimulant drugs? You have mentioned them several times and I get the impression you take them regularly, but they're not listed in your signature. Depression is a potential side effect of Nuvigil. Do you still take stimulants? They have a withdrawal syndrome all of their own and I think someone who has taken these kinds of drugs is probably more likely to suffer with symptoms like apathy and lack of motivation, in between doses and after coming off them, especially in an unstable nervous system sensitized by withdrawal.

 

Are you tapering both Prozac and Effexor at the same time, according to your signature, it looks like you are, but if not, which one are you tapering now?

 

I was cutting by 15% the prozac and 5-7% effexor with no issues for months.

 

....

 

November I reduced 15% of prozac again since I was stable and did ok. I started taking 1.9ml again. I was fine until December when I started 1.6ml. Then neuroemotions started.

 

 

You are tapering too fast and it sounds like reducing two drugs at the same time. If you read back through your thread you will see you were advised against this. We suggest reducing by no more than 10% of the current dose every 4 weeks, this reduces the risk of withdrawal symptoms arising. Please read through this which will explain why:  Why taper by 10% of my dosage? Its especially important to slow down your taper as the dose gets lower.

 

If you are changing the dose of more than one drug at a time its impossible to know which change is causing symptoms. Symptoms can change in response to a drug change for up to several months, so its important to keep to a stable routine and make changes gradually, paying attention to changes in symptom patterns. If symptoms arise, hold until they subside. Don't make another cut until symptoms have stabilized and have remained stable for at least 2 weeks. Increased symptoms are a sign you are tapering too fast.

 

I'm a bit confused if you are having increased symptoms at the moment or not. On the 16th you mention having neuro-emotions start and two weeks later you note improvements and seem to relate it to a slight updose in Effexor? I'm not sure, but perhaps it would help if your read through our windows and waves topic. Symptoms are going to fluctuate during recovery in response to drug changes, but also because this is the normal pattern of recovery and stabilization through tapering and healing. I've been drug free for 33 months and I've been getting symptoms come and go in waves this whole time, you can't always attribute a change in symptoms to a drug change. Slow, careful tapering with emphasis on keeping your nervous system stable is what we are trying to achieve, rather than trying to control fluctuating symptoms by continually changing drugs and doses, this only leads to further destabilization, more symptoms and a longer taper and recovery time.

 

I get the impression that Apathy is your most troubling symptom, when did this start? Does it ever go away... if so, is there a pattern to this?

 

Also if you could tell us a little bit about your diet. What kind of food do you eat, caffeine? Alcohol? Are you taking any supplements?

 

If you can answer these, we may be able to suggest where to go from here. For now, don't make any more changes.

 

Petunia.

[Newbeginning]

Hi Petunia,

 

To answer your questions,

 

I read sections of "Anatomy", but not the whole book. I am familiar with the general conclusions of the book. Was there anything you thought I should read that I might have missed?

 

I was put on SSRIs several times in the last 20 years for symptoms such as: anxiety, racing thoughts, insomnia,low appetite, excessive guilt/shame, crying spells, inability to focus even on TV (due to anxiety), all of which severely affected my functioning.

 

I never experienced apathy before the first SSRI. I have, however, continued to have apathy when drug free. My memory fails me but those drug-free periods lasted anywhere between 1-3 years.

 

I took a stimulant occasionally before I started tapering and for a bit at the beginning of my taper. Once I went into withdrawal for the first time 2 years ago, stimulants stopped working and just gave me insomnia, so I stopped them. I never took them regularly; have not taken them in over 2 years. When I "quit" them I had no withdrawal or increased apathy. I also don't recall the apathy getting worse coming down from them. The only thing that would get worse is insomnia (would last a couple of days).

 

For most of my taper, I tapered one drug at a time. I started tapering Effexor 10% as advised up until April 2015. Then I decided to hold on the effexor taper and taper Prozac. I did this because the apathy was not subsiding after 1.5 years tapering, and I had reason to believe it was a side effect of Prozac. So I tapered Prozac only for several months. I followed advice from the Prozac thread which said we might get away with higher than 10% cuts with prozac. I tried 20% and had a little withdrawal, so I did 15% and had no withdrawal. I cut 15% Prozac for several months without withdrawal.

 

Then sometime in 2015 (can't see my sig but I believe it was July), I decided to cut a little bit of effexor along with the Prozac. Looking back this was not a good idea. I felt since I knew my body's reaction to Prozac, I could tackle effexor too. It was less than 10% cuts. I think between 5-7% (started as 5 and became 7% as 1 bead represented higher percentages of total with lower doses).

 

In July-August the apathy improved for about two months. However, at the end of August I started having neuro emotions (very very mild, mostly emotional sensitivity). Then I realized I was measuring the liquid Prozac wrong and inadvertently changing my dose daily for 1-2 months. I corrected this and reinstated to the dose before I started messing up. The apathy returned but the neuro emotions subsided.

 

I kept decreasing both drugs at the same rate from October until December with no issues. In December I got the neuroemotions really bad. I waited 2 months not changing my dose but symptoms were getting worse. I reinstated just 1 bead of effexor (less than 1 mg) and within few days the neuroemotions and anxiety were gone.

 

I realize I made a mistake tapering both at the same time. Won't do it again. Right now I'm stable. The only symptom I have is apathy. I won't be cutting again for at least two more weeks (which would be 8 weeks since my last cut and give my body 3 weeks to fully stabilize). I was going to continue tapering Prozac only and do just 10% for now.

 

I have been pretty much stable for the last 1.5 years so I have not been changing drug doses due to symptoms, but there were two times in which I had to. The first because I had messed the dose without knowing and needed to reinstate to stabilize. The second because after 2 months the symptoms were unbearable. I generally have not gone up and down the dose in the last 1.5 years since I stabilized from my initial semi-fast taper advised by the dr.

 

As I said, the apathy started with SSRI use, got much worse when I was on the maximum dose allowed of an SSRIs for 2 years (before I had taken them for less than a year at a time). I had a period of relief when I decreased the dose, but apathy came back two weeks after starting Prozac. Then I had another period of relief last year for 2 months when the dose of Prozac reached 8.5mg, but apathy came back when I messed my dose by mistake and then had to increase dose again to stabilize. It's been 5 months with no relief from the apathy even though I'm at a lower dose than during my last window.

 

About diet: I don't use caffeine much: just one cup of coffee in the morning and usually instant, which is not that strong. I never drink alcohol, don't smoke, don't use other drugs. I tried L-tyrosine recently for 2 months, but it did not help. At different times in the last two years I've been on a multivitamin, fish oil, probiotics. Didn't notice any worsening of symptoms or improvement in the apathy. I was planning on trying a supplement to support thyroid function that a friend recommended, but won't do it for several months until I stabilize completely and see how I do with 10% Prozac cuts.

 

I eat healthy for the most part, but have had periods when I ate too much sugar and simple carbs in the last 2 years (I believe SSRIs gave me sugar cravings). I'm doing better now eating healthy, mostly because my appetite and cravings have improved in the last 2 months.

 

Thanks for your help Petunia!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I get the impression that Apathy is your most troubling symptom, when did this start? Does it ever go away... if so, is there a pattern to this?

 

Also if you could tell us a little bit about your diet. What kind of food do you eat, caffeine? Alcohol? Are you taking any supplements?

 

If you can answer these, we may be able to suggest where to go from here. For now, don't make any more changes.

 

Petunia.

[Petunia]

Thanks for filling in those details NB, it sounds like you're doing everything right, especially to keep withdrawal symptoms low as you continue to taper. Unfortunately it sounds like apathy might be something which is going to stick around until you are fully recovered, you have it while on the drugs and when you stopped taking them previously. It seems that it subsides when other withdrawal symptoms increase, but then it comes back as they settle down again. Apathy can be a drug effect and a withdrawal symptom and from what I've read, can be one of the last symptoms to go away.

 

You didn't have it before SSRIs so I expect that eventually it will go away, once you are drug free and recovered, it may take a while though.

 

My own experience of apathy is that I first got it soon after I started on my first SSRI. It remained at a low level through most of the time I was on SSRI s but disappeared during the periods I was taking stimulants. Now I'm 33 months drug free and I still have it, quite badly, but I tapered too fast and have protracted withdrawal. For me, its an improvement because I've had many other withdrawal symptoms which have been much worse, so I see apathy as a later stage of withdrawal recovery and believe that in time it will subside completely.

 

I've had very few windows through my recovery process, but they brought complete relief from all symptoms, including apathy, in fact windows have brought a bit too much energy and motivation at times and I've overdone things, so I have confidence that even this is going to go away eventually. But until then, I just try and accept this is the way it has to be for now and I do what I have to do to keep living, to keep from making my life any worse than it already is and to not hurt or inconvenience others.

 

From what you've written, I can't suggest doing anything differently, just know that it will resolve in time.

 

These drugs ruin lives, sometimes they save lives, or seem to, but eventually, they eat away at the quality of the lives they save and sometimes they take back, quite brutally what they have given and more. But with careful, safe tapering, time, patience and acceptance I think its possible to get back to a life similar to what we had before.

 

I read sections of "Anatomy", but not the whole book. I am familiar with the general conclusions of the book. Was there anything you thought I should read that I might have missed?

 

I don't know what parts you read, so I don't know what you missed. I think everyone should read it before filling their first prescription, if they are capable, then they can make an informed choice based on knowing the facts behind how these drugs were developed, approved and the outcomes from long term use.

 

If you have read enough of it you know that psychiatric drugs are not real medicines in the way antibiotics or insulin are. They don't target a known pathogen, an identifiable illness, cure or balance anything.  They are are toxins which disrupt the normal functioning of the brain in ways that sometimes, for a short while for some people might seem to be helpful. But who wants to poison their own brain for the rest of their life unless it was absolutely necessary?

 

And for those of us who have been mislead into poisoning ourselves, while believing we were taking legitimate medicines, we have to do the best we can to safely stop taking the drugs our bodies have become dependent on and figure out how to best support our recovery from the damage already done.

 

You're doing the best you can, I wish there was something else I could suggest.

 

I was put on SSRIs several times in the last 20 years for symptoms such as: anxiety, racing thoughts, insomnia,low appetite, excessive guilt/shame, crying spells, inability to focus even on TV (due to anxiety), all of which severely affected my functioning.

 

 

Did you ever discover the underlying cause of all this? I mean the very first episode before you ever took a psyche drug? Did something happen?

 

As individuals, we all have different levels of stress tolerance, sensitivity, and emotional resilience. Genetically, there are differences, but episodes of increased emotional difficulty, I believe always have underlying environmental factors combined with dysfunctional thought and belief structures.  There may be hormonal or nutritional imbalances too.

 

Whatever it is that causes us to struggle in life, if its an ongoing problem, is unlikely to just go away by itself. Taking a brain disabling drug for a while, so the symptoms don't bother us so much, for a while, can perhaps provide some relief, but long term, its going to make things worse, because we're not solving the underlying problem and all the while our brain and NS is being changed by the drug, changes which decrease the quality of our life and make us susceptible to other illnesses.

 

The longer we have been exposed to these brain changing drugs, the harder it seems to be to get off them, and recover from the effects they have caused. At the moment, there are no quick fixes and its unlikely there will be, because most of this is still widely unacknowledged.

 

But we do recover, so hang in there NB, keep going the way you are. Keep it slow and stable and you will get there eventually.

[Newbeginning]

Thanks Petunia!

 

Yes, I am familiar with the fact that the drugs don't cure depression or anxiety, but just address symptoms. I learned that from my own experience with them: they typically decreased anxiety and anxiety-related symptoms, but didn't do much more. Same with the stimulants (which like you I've tried over the years). At first I thought they were curing the issue because they helped a lot with apathy, but they would stop working or at times cause hypomania. So in retrospect I realized they were also treating symptoms--not unlike the high you would get from cocaine or meth, just more long lasting and less immediately toxic.

 

It's a good thing the stims didn't help for that long or I would have taken them long term and risk making the apathy even worse.

 

You asked about the cause of my first episode of depression. I know the cause was stress. I have a very hard time with romantic breakups and they trigger extreme anxiety. I never found a way to deal with that other than antidepressants. I've been in therapy many times, but it seems my issue goes much deeper than beliefs. I think the meds also affected my capacity to benefit from therapy because my energy and motivation were gradually getting worse over the years. But I also lost time with therapists that were useless and just taking my money. I think I had the spellbinding with therapists more than with meds lol. I just kept going to them even though they were doing nothing but just listen and nod (I had one that fell asleep too). With meds I always knew they were not helping with the apathy, but only with anxiety. I never fooled myself about that--which is why I stopped them and changed them continuously.

 

I see in your sig this year is your 3rd year off of all drugs. You should be getting closer to the other side. I hope I'll be reading your success story soon!

 

Thanks again for all your insights and support.

[Newbeginning]

I need some advice. I decreased Prozac 15% 3-4 weeks ago and now I'm very light-headed. I can't function at all. Feel very tired and drowsy-like drugged.

 

I was stable for a month before that cut, and had only decreased 7% in my previous cut (end of February). I've been decreasing 15% with no problems since 2014.

 

Could it be I'm not handling 15% now that I'm 6mg Prozac? (I started at 20mg).

 

I have not changed my Effexor dose since the end of January, so I doubt it's that. On November 2015 I made a decrease that caused instability (bad neuroemotions): I did 15% of Prozac and like 6% of Effexor. End of January I reinstated to prior dose of Effexor and did not change Prozac. That stabilized the withdrawal symptoms. The only thing that remained was a new sensitivity to caffeine (it would make me feel stressed or irritable, which it never did before). I also got drowsy at higher doses of Magnesium glycinate and boron. But other than that I was very much stable. So one month later (end of February), I decreased 7% of Prozac. Was still stable until the end of March. Then I thought I could go back to 15% Prozac, but 3 weeks later I'm not doing well.

 

I don't know what to do now...

 

Please advice!!

[ChessieCat]

Hi Newbeginning,

 

When you are talking about percentages, do you mean % of previous dose, or percentage of original dose.

 

Just because something worked previously does not mean it will work again.  Since 2014 your CNS has been destabilised and your brain is trying to find a balance (homeostasis).  You may want to consider updosing a small amount to see if that helps with the withdrawal symptom you are getting.  DO NOT go back to your previous dose.  You brain will have partially adapted to not getting as much of the drug since your dose reduction.

 

Many members here have reported having greater difficulty once they reach the lower doses and have had to reduce their dose reduction % or hold for longer.

[Newbeginning]

Hi Newbeginning,

 

When you are talking about percentages, do you mean % of previous dose, or percentage of original dose.

 

Just because something worked previously does not mean it will work again.  Since 2014 your CNS has been destabilised and your brain is trying to find a balance (homeostasis).  You may want to consider updosing a small amount to see if that helps with the withdrawal symptom you are getting.  DO NOT go back to your previous dose.  You brain will have partially adapted to not getting as much of the drug since your dose reduction.

 

Many members here have reported having greater difficulty once they reach the lower doses and have had to reduce their dose reduction % or hold for longer.

 

Thanks ChessieCat! I mean percentage of previous dose. I'd be a mess now if I was doing percentage of original dose lol. 

 

Not sure I understood what you meant by "don't go to previous dose". I was talking about reinstating 1.5ml (6mg) instead of 1.3ml (5.2mg). That was my dose about 3 weeks ago (1.5ml or 6mg). What would you suggest? 1.4ml (about 5.6mg)? I actually took 1.5ml in the last 4 days (before I realized someone had responded to this), but I don't think it's too late to go to 1.4ml, right?

 

I've had some improvement on 1.5ml, but still feel very tired. At least not light-headed or ill, but still early to tell if I will stabilize all the way.

 

My thought is to stay at 1.4ml or 1.5ml another month and then try a 10% reduction, instead of the usual 15%. What do you think?

 

Thanks so much for your feedback. I'd be lost without the kindness of peers who are going through this too! Hugs!

[Newbeginning]

So I'm at a loss. I reinstated 1.5ml Prozac. Tried 1.4ml a few days with no improvement. Tried 1.5ml. Felt better in a week. Was stable for a full week after that. Then started having anxiety and depression. Struggling a lot right now.

 

Not sure what to do now. Reinstate 1.6ml? It seems it's at that dose that problems started. After I manage to stabilize I will hold for 2 months and then taper 10%. Something happened when I reached 6mg (1.6ml) back in December and my body is not handling 15% cuts.

 

I will give it some time before considering reinstating. Maybe 2 weeks. Hopefully it will get better on its own. Any help much appreciated!

[ChessieCat]

The reason I said not to go to previous dose (but less than previous dose) was because your brain has made some adjustments during the time you have been on the lower dose so going back to the previous dose may end up being too much.  When reinstating (after being off a drug) or updosing (whilst still on a drug) the idea is to try and do it using the smallest possible increase.

 

You said you tried 1.4 ml for a few days.  It takes 4 days for the drug to get to a steady state in the blood.  It may be that 1.4 ml was enough but that you didn't give it enough time.  Maybe if you have given it a week you may have found that things settled down.  1.5 ml may be too much.  However, you need to decide on which dose to stick to and then stay on that for a while so that you stabilise (1 to 2 months).  You may also find it better to start going down by even less than 10% of the previous dose.  The lower you get the harder it can be.  It is better for your brain and CNS to go slower and take your time than to go down too much and then have to updose.  The idea of slow tapering is to keep withdrawal symptoms to a minimum.

[Newbeginning]

Thank you Chessie Cat. You're correct. I should have given 1.4ml at least a week. I will try to do that in the future (reinstate a lower dose and give it a week).

 

For now, I think its been too long on 1.5ml and changing back to 1.4ml now may led to more instability, as you suggested.

 

The withdrawal symptoms have lasted one week now. They seem to have gotten a little better, so hopefully they will settle in another week. I will keep the 1.5ml dose for 2 months after I stabilize, and then try 10% (I was doing 15% prior because it's Prozac and it was working fine). I will hold for 6-7 weeks. If 10% still doesn't work, I will start decreasing less. 

 

I was very surprised that withdrawal re-started after I was ok for a week. Someone suggested to me the magnesium oil I was using it might have caused a reaction. I'm not sure if it was the reinstatement to 1.5ml or the mag oil, but either way I will do a long hold and then starting less as you suggested.

 

Thanks so much for your kind advice. I wish you well in your healing

[Newbeginning]

So I've been holding my dose since May. It helped me stabilize and felt all withdrawal was gone. However, the last few weeks I have some new symptoms: sugar cravings, tiredness, worse motivation, acne, abdominal cramps. Feel like I have PMS all month long and I'm 39.

 

Can this be withdrawal with no change in dose and after a hold where I seemed to be 100% stabilized for months?

[AliG]

NewBeginning . Has anything changed in your schedule or lifestyle?  Have you had any added stress emotionally or physically ?  Antibiotics or " over the counter drugs" ? Travel ?  Caffeine or alcohol ?

Sometimes, these things can be destabilizing and could possibly account for a change in symptoms and can definitely bring on a wave.

Have a think about it. How is your sleep ?

There can be so many seemingly small things that can add up to instability , when in withdrawal.

Ali 

[Newbeginning]

Thanks Ali! There's no changes really. I had been sleeping less, but that never caused withdrawal before. I also got lax on eating healthy, which I had been doing for a few months. I don't think eating more sugary foods or less veggies made withdrawal worse before though.

 

It started with abdominal cramps that lasted several weeks and would not go away after I got my period. Then after a month of that the tiredness, cravings, and pimples started.

 

What I find most puzzling is that I had been holding the dose and stable for months. I went from reacting to a cup of weak coffee to not reacting to any of the meds that I had to have during surgery (anesthesia, opiates, antibiotics). I was so stable that I did not react to any of that---so to think I'm reaction to less healthy diet seems improbable.

 

I was about to cut again, but now I'm not sure I should. Could it be something other than withdrawal? Maybe long term damage from the drugs that affected my hormones?

[AliG]

If you had surgery, that could help to explain it.  Does it correlate with your increased symptoms?   Surgery is an added strain/ stress on the body and then with the extra drugs -anesthesia etc  it can be very destabilizing.

 

I would hold for a couple of months until you are feeling more symptom free. It can only help to give your system time to settle down and  get back to your "withdrawal normal". 

Ali

[Newbeginning]

Surgery was in May and had no issues then. It's only now that I do.

 

I won't be cutting while I feel like this, but I had already been holding for 4 months and up until now was very stable.

[Newbeginning]

Someone just mentioned to me that this could be tolerance withdrawal from being holding the dose? If so, should I increase a tiny bit? I know holds help, but isn't it also possible one may develop tolerance to the dose and get withdrawal?

[bubble]

We don't really believe in tolerance withdrawal here. If you want to know about our position on it, you can read the thread on the benzo subsection.

[bubble]

http://survivingantidepressants.org/index.php?/topic/2233-benzo-tolerance-withdrawal-during-tapering-does-it-exist/page-1#

 

Your symptoms increased after surgery. Usually they come immediately but they can be delayed. If you felt well before you should be able to return to that place soon.

[Newbeginning]

Thank you Bubble. Another possibility is that I am reacting to the supplements I'm taking: Magnesium and Boron. I realized the other day that my symptoms started when I increased Boron from 3mg to 6mg 2 months ago. They didn't start all at once, but the first time I had any new symptoms was when I increased Boron dose.

 

I've read Boron can affect hormones (supposedly it regulates them), and my symptoms do feel hormonal.

 

I'm not sure it is that, but I stopped Boron 3 days ago to find out. I hope if it's that, it won't take long to settle

[Newbeginning]

So its been 5 days off Boron and it's not improving. Are there reports of others who have reactions to Boron or Magnesium Glycinate when tapering? I had been 100% stable and holding my dose for 4 months.

[Henosis]

Just throwing in my $0.02.

 

Because of the awful (heretofore unexperienced) side effects I got after initially reinstating Paxil, I tried alleviating its withdrawal symptoms with a *wide* array of SSRIs, SNRI's, an MAOI, and a handful of novel drugs within a few months. Looking back, it was a total disaster, and I'm probably lucky I didn't do more damage. The attempted "Prozac bridge" was messy and didn't help WD symptoms much. I think many of the more desperate and/or adventurous among us find themselves doing the same thing, and it appears to rarely work out well.

I know the pressure you describe, as I was doing all of this while working 50+ hours a week as a software engineer.

[Altostrata]

Did you accidentally skip a dose? Are any of your drugs beyond expiration date?

[Newbeginning]

Just throwing in my $0.02.

 

Because of the awful (heretofore unexperienced) side effects I got after initially reinstating Paxil, I tried alleviating its withdrawal symptoms with a *wide* array of SSRIs, SNRI's, an MAOI, and a handful of novel drugs within a few months. Looking back, it was a total disaster, and I'm probably lucky I didn't do more damage. The attempted "Prozac bridge" was messy and didn't help WD symptoms much. I think many of the more desperate and/or adventurous among us find themselves doing the same thing, and it appears to rarely work out well.

I know the pressure you describe, as I was doing all of this while working 50+ hours a week as a software engineer.

 

I agree that trying different meds more often than not makes things worse. I deeply regret doing the bridge, but once it was a month on Prozac, I could not just quit Prozac without making withdrawal worse. So I got stuck decreasing both...