Northcoastboy: Stopping benzo withdrawal and starting Seroquel withdrawal

[Northcoastboy]

Hi All

This site has been a great source of help to me over the last few weeks of withdrawal, so thank you.

I have given up drink after a long battle during which I became co addicted to codeine and valium on and off.

I have been clean and sober for 2 years.

In 1997 I was first prescribed Seroxat. I then switched to Citalopram (Celexa). A total of 17 years on SSRi's.

I have tried to stop the AD many times but have always gone back on them. The original diagnosis was anxiety and depression. Linked no doubt to my alcohol abuse from early teens to my mid 50's. I am male aged 56.

 

I tried stop AD many times but always went back on them. I tried to taper in early march this year and started again. Finally after a fast taper 3 weeks from 10mg to 0. I got liquid citalopram and reduced by 10% per day!. Yes far too fast.

I did have withdrawals from 2.5mg.

Dizzy

Nauseous

Flu like sysmptoms

extreme fatigue

moved head and eyes would follow later

waves of depression

Tinnitus.

These symptoms started to ease after 10 days. Except Tinnitus and fuzzy head. I was then hit with Insommnia  at Day 10

I have had a couple of good nights sleep. However last night as an example;

Fell asleep within seconds whilst reading. About an hour later I get a surge of adrenalin (cortisol) and I am awake. Dozed til 4am, then further surges of adrenalin every few minute for 2 hours. Further dozing til 9am. I then get up more tired than when I went to bed.

I have tried all suggestions on this site to no avail. I even do a complete full body relaxation and mediatation on headphones. I have this back ground tension that stops me sleeping. I recognise it as withdrawal. I do abdominal breathing and try and rest. Get up walk around if needed. I have a sleep pedometer and it recorded me awakening 26 times last night!!!

I had cancer and chemo last year and I worry all this stress cortisol is not doing me any good

Hay ho day at a time this too shall pass.

I am day 18 with no AD after 17 years use, so cannot expect miracles.

Good luck to you all.

Edited April 9, 2017 by ChessieCat
tags

[Bellisimo]

Hello and welcome!

Ive been also quitting citalopram (celexa) but after 6 years of on and off use of it.

Ive been drinking alcohol quite much aswell but cannot atm (which is good bc otherwise im sure i wud be addicted to it) but my brain cant tolerate it anymore, not coffein either.. I also tapered down to 2,5 mg and still withdrawal hit me, and this insomnia u talking about is CRAZY, the first weeks when it hit me i was awake 24/7, i was soo drugged in head but just couldnt sleep and when i finally fell asleep, my body decided to not keep sleeping and woke up panicing and with huuge adrenalin kicks, it was crazy, it comes and goes and have had  like 2 weeks now havent been able to sleep much, like 2-4 hrs each night but last night i could sleep better i think it gets better..

 

I wish you ALL the best in this hell withdrawal, i have notice there is nothing else i can do than just go thru it or stay on meds rest of my life which i cant accept

[Nikki]

Hi NCB...

 

I was on Celexa for a few years too.  I tapered from it maybe over a year's time.  I finished it in November 2013.  It was not the only drug I was on.  There are two others.  I think for me because of the other meds I was able to do it in a year's time.

 

If I were only on that drug it would have taken alot more time.

 

I will leave this up to the others to help you out with where you can go from here.  During my time on ssri's there were a few times where I needed to go back up in dose to circumvent WD.

 

The symptoms you are having is WD....you are not alone.  It hit all of us here. 

 

The others will be along shortly to help you sort this out. 

 

PS there is a lovely support group in the UK for getting off meds safely.  It is on FB.  It's called Seroxat, getting off ssri's safely  It is in your neck-of-the-woods (UK)....because it is FB the posts and info are limited unlike this site.

 

Best regards

[Northcoastboy]

Hi Bellisimo

I hope you are getting the same lovely spring sunshine we are getting. It's helping my withdrawal.

Thanks Nikki, I'll look it up. I have read Dr Glenmullens book and read hundreds of post on here and appreciate I am suffering withdrawals and it will come in waves and windows.

Got so much help here thought I'd post if it may help someone along the way.

I have considered going back on Cit but I figure I will have withdrawals anyway because I get them bad at 2.5 mgs however slow I get there. Hope that makes sense. I suppose being on them 17 years doesn't help.

 

Last night I went to bed exhausted. I walked 8.5 miles yesterday (fitbit pedometer)myesterday. I wore headphones and listened to rainstorm with light storm downloaded from iTunes on my iPad. This really quietened the tinnitus and helped me relax. I read 2 pages of my book and fell asleep. I then had maybe 1 hour or less of adrenalin surges. Definitely no thought process here, just withdrawal as went into sleep.

I then read again and repeated process a couple of times. Trying to stop thoughts of! "I've got to sleep or I'll go mad, back on meds, can't go on like this etc etc. Did some deep abdominal breathing. Repeated the serenity prayer over and and over in my head. Then miracle of miracles I awoke just now 7.5 hours later,

 

I appreciate it's not the end. But as Churchill said, "it may be the beginning of the end"

[Northcoastboy]

Just been for a gentle jog 2.5 miles. It's my only drug of choice these days. The dopamine release after exercise playing some nice music etc

I now feel awful head really fuzzy and dizzy. Any ideas as to the adverse reaction. Walking seems to be ok.

Thanks

[Altostrata]

Welcome, Northcoastboy.

 

You were on SSRIs for a very long time. This makes you more prone to a difficult withdrawal.

 

What you might do to stop withdrawal symptoms is reinstate a small amount of citalopram, 2.5mg for example, stabilize, and taper more slowly from there.

Do you have any citalopram left? You can make a liquid yourself with water. For titrating citalopram, see http://survivingantidepressants.org/index.php?/topic/2023-tips-for-tapering-off-celexa-citalopram/

About reinstatement http://survivingantidepressants.org/index.php?/topic/3079-about-reinstating-and-stabilizing-to-stop-withdrawal-symptoms/

About withdrawal syndrome http://survivingantidepressants.org/index.php?/topic/603-what-is-antidepressant-withdrawal-syndrome/

[Bellisimo]

Ye i truly hate this hate fuzziness and dizziness, i have found that exercise, specially walking helps me too , i have like adrenalin rushes in my body sooo often, so i have no choice then go out walk for what it seems like hooours to make it stop, extreeeeme athasia or whats its called i think i suffer from, bc i cant sit, lay , nothing juyst need to walk walk walk

[Northcoastboy]

Thank you

Thanks for doing this site Alto and your advice.

I'm going to hang in there and try and tough it out. The days are doable. The nights are tricky but a pattern is appearing. 2-3 disturbed nights, followed by 1-2 good nights. I'm lucky in I go to AA and NA and get support there. I've also done some CBT and that helps too. Plus reading posts on here.

[Northcoastboy]

Really bad flu like symptoms after yesterday's jog. A good night again last night. Took 45 mins to get to sleep during which I had the usual adrenalin surges. Slept we'll after that. Awoke with terrible headache and dizzy. Hangover from yesterday's exertions.

Tired today. Walked my 5 miles already:-)

[Bellisimo]

its so funny ive had this flu . like symtom going on with no break for 4months , its soo annoying

 

good boy walking =) i got so happy that i could sleep 7 hours last night, i feel asleep 4,30 in the morning tho and wake up 3 times during this period but i could go back to sleep *Feeling good!!!*

[Rhiannon]

NCB, we've seen hundreds and hundreds of people try to "tough it out." It's not a good idea. Please read Bellismo's sig line, she tapered slower than you did and has been suffering since August. And that's fairly typical. I have to say honestly that I have never seen anyone with a history like yours (many years on SSRIs with multiple attempts to get off in the past) succeed with the "tough it out" approach. 

 

You actually have the option, this early after quitting, of reinstating a small amount, stabilizing (which will take a while), and then tapering off slowly and successfully. We've worked with hundreds (and in Alto's case maybe into the thousands) of people in your position. I would say there might be ten people in the US who know as much as Alto does about AD withdrawal, but that's probably an overestimate.

 

Please take some time and read, read, read through the stories here. You are not likely to be a magical exception.

 

You are in the fortunate position of not being too far along in protracted withdrawal to actually reinstate and then get off the drug in a way that actually works. Please consider carefully whether or not you want to throw that gift away.

[Northcoastboy]

Thanks Rhi

Ok this where I am and can you dvice me after u read this. I am open and willing to advice, honestly:-)

I did a 10% day withdrawal over 3 weeks using liquid citalopram in water using baby syringe.

At 2.5 mg I got hit by a train of symptoms.

Continued 10% reductions

I don't need to list them, the usual.

Head spinning dizzy nauseous etc

Chronic fatigue

Including manic days and depressed days

Loud tinnitus

10 day insomnia no or little sleep for 3 days.

All these symptoms have subsided.

Made worse yesterday by running. Will not repeat.

Slept last night for 7.45 mins according to my fitbit pedometer. 45 restless and awoke twice for toilet.

 

I had cancer last year and chemo and dealt with that ok. I really don't want to take a step back. Dr Glenmullens does say the worst should be over after 3 weeks to a month. That's where I'm at and I tend to agree. I have withdrawn from alcohol and codeine and Citalopram is on a par with those withdrawals. Did read that ssri withdrawal makes heroin withdrawal look like a walk in the park. It's painful but usually over in 7-10 days. Ssri withdrawal hangs around.

 

I would say now I'm left with chronic tinnitus and trouble getting to sleep but 45 mins is not bad.

 

I may be like a boy whistling in the dark but feel the worst is behind me. I know more symptoms may hit me in the future.

 

Is your advice the same? I am day 21 and feel ok (honest)

[Rhiannon]

Withdrawal from an SSRI is not comparable to alcohol or opiates. I've never done alcohol withdrawal but I've withdrawn from opiates (pain meds) and it's a walk in the park compared to neuroleptics, and over much faster. The effects of alcohol on the brain are not comparable to the effects of these drugs, which are extremely potent and precise in their action and act on neurotransmitters themselves in very powerful and precise ways. 

 

My advice is to listen to Alto's advice.

 

In my experience, the worst for you is yet to come. It's very common for people to go through an acute period of withdrawal, then to have those symptoms settle down, only to be hit hard a few weeks or months later. At that point they usually are told they are having a relapse and they go back on the drugs. That is what I anticipate will happen to you.

 

If this was the first time you had ever taken a psych med and the first time you had ever tried to get off one, I would say you might have a chance and I would not be so discouraging. But given your history, to be perfectly honest, I don't anticipate that this is going to go well for you in the long run. I can't tell you how many people I have seen come and go here, who came in thinking they were going to be the exception to the rule, who thought they had the special magic stuff or whatever.

 

I can see where your success with prior withdrawals, with the help of willpower and positive thinking and whatever other excellent tools and strengths of character you have relied on, would make you feel optimistic that this will be more of the same. And if these drugs worked like alcohol and opiates, I would say yes, you're right.

 

But they don't. They are much more powerful and they cause concrete physical changes in your brain. You can't walk on a broken leg, not because you can't tough out the pain, but because a shattered bone can't support weight.  Your brain has been broken and remodeled by these drugs, actual physical changes that have to reverse. The only way for that to happen is to give it time. You have to grow a new brain. That takes time.

 

That's what the slow taper is for, it provides the brain with the chemical support that it has come to depend on (has in fact remodeled and shaped itself around, like a plant growing on a trellis). If you yank away the crutch because you're going to tough out the shattered broken leg, you're not going to help it heal. If you yank the trellis away from a plant that has grown around it, you're going to cause more damage. You have to gradually ease away the chemical, gradually trim away the trellis, so that your brain can heal and regrow gradually.

[Rhiannon]

here:

http://survivingantidepressants.org/index.php?/topic/5891-rickoshea-hi-and-help-please/?p=80624

[Northcoastboy]

Thanks Rhi

Read articles and accept what u say.

Just re read dr Glenmullens book, chapter on tapering.

I am going to plough on.

Do I get deleted or will you be interested in how I get on?

[Altostrata]

Please do keep us posted about how you're doing.

 

Dr. Glenmullen's book is the best one on tapering; however, not everyone can tolerate the rate of taper he recommends, and withdrawal syndrome does not always resolve in a few weeks.

[Nikki]

NCB

 

Churchill also said "when going thru hell, keep going."  Great man.

 

I agree with the others about reinstatement....It can make a huge difference for the better.....

[Petunia]

Hi NCB,

I just read through your thread.   I wish I was in your position with an opportunity for a successful reinstatement.  There are a lot of similarities between your situation/history and mine.  I have also withdrawn from codeine and compared to what I've gone through over the last couple of years it was absolutely nothing, can't even remember the details of it.

 

But anyway, it sounds like you have made your decision, so I wont go on about it.  But I did want to mention something about the exercise you are doing.  When a nervous system gets destabilized by withdrawal, which is what you have, intense exercise can increase stress and cause more damage and slow healing, so perhaps that is something you could look at.  If you find that your symptoms get worse after exercise (running) maybe do something more gentle until you are further along the recovery process.

 

Please do stay in touch and let us know how you are doing.

 

Petu.

[Northcoastboy]

Thanks guys

I do admit to being a bit worried last night about the advice I was getting and the ultimate return of more severe symptoms in the future. I slept ok last night and the after effects of the run I did have gone. I did really feel bad yesterday flu like and I realise I am a lot more delicate than I thought I was. I will not run for the foreseeable future:-(

I did a taper plan that would have been a 10% reduction per month. It would have seen me getting off liquid citalopram in October, not a particularly good time of year for me.

I decided to taper quickly and get off Citalopram in the spring.

Altostrata

He does seem to suggest a softer landing than is the reality on here.

[cymbaltawithdrawal5600]

Quote:

 

I did a taper plan that would have been a 10% reduction per month. It would have seen me getting off liquid citalopram in October, not a particularly good time of year for me.

 

Oh dear. Far better to do a rapid taper with what amounts to a cold turkey approach on the med AND quit alcohol in the same year and think you will be able to tough it out.

 

Please do keep telling us how you are getting on.

[Northcoastboy]

 

cymbalta

Is that a negative hope you fail post.

Or a supportive post

In my frame of mind, I read as negative.

It's 2 years since I gave up booze.

I a dose of cancer in between though:-)

[cymbaltawithdrawal5600]

Sorry, I misread the dates. No one ever hopes anyone fails. You should reinstate and taper slower this time. Your way is not likely to work. Not if you want to remain functional while your body is getting used to being off both drugs alcohol and cancer all at the same time. Bodies don't work on a calendar.

[Nikki]

NCB  we all try to make the best decisions we can under the circumstances.  No one walks in your shoes but you.  There is advise from sharing our experiences.  In a large group such as this stick with those that you feel comfortable with.

 

So sorry that you had to endure a bout of cancer in the middle of all of this.  That's alot to handle.

 

Let's look at the positives...you gave up drinking and do not have cancer....now you are left with getting thru this WD.  I get what Rhi and Alto were saying about a window or time frame for a possible reinstatement to work. 

 

When it does it helps turn down the volume on WD symptoms.  Been there.  This of course is a personal choice.  No judgements.

 

In regards to exercise...during WD alot of people are affected by over exertion.  It just seems to be the norm.  Maybe exercising a bit less may help.

 

Best regards......

[Northcoastboy]

Thanks Nikki

A nice calm subjective post. Thank you so much.

[Rhiannon]

No, no, definitely please stick around and keep us posted. I definitely want to hear from people who go off faster. Almost all my experience is with people who have had trouble getting off and staying off, that's who comes here, so that's who I have learned from. I would love to hear about the journey of someone who comes off fast and does well. I need to know more about that possibility.

 

Also, we often get people who have CT'd or cut down fast and don't reinstate, and they usually don't stick around once they hear our advice, so I don't usually get to find out what becomes of them. 

 

I consider every person who comes here and shares their journey as a valuable addition to my knowledge and my ability to help others. We may urge you to do what we think is best for you, but we will support you no matter what you do (well, unless you start murdering people or something...you have no plans to do that do you? ;-) kidding...)

 

I very much want to hear how you do, please stick around!

[Northcoastboy]

Thanks Rhi

Ok I will keep updating and let u know how I'm doing.

Just went thru calendar and this was pretty much my taper I had rarely been on 30mgs

Usually 20mgs in winter and 10 mgs in summer.

End February 2014

10 mg Citalopram (celexa) cut in half (difficult) took 5mgs approx

Did this for a week or so and started withdrawals after cutting to 2.5mgs

Manic one day depressed the next

Bad mood swings, very short tempered. Dizzy etc etc

I'm 6' 2" 220lbs (not pretty)

Holiday looming so reinstated to 10mgs felt ok after a week. This was first few days into March.

Started liquid Citalopram

14th March 6.75mgs

19th March 6mgs

22th March. 5.25mgs

24th March. 4.5mgs

25th March. 3.75mgs

26th March. 3mgs

27th March. 2.25mgs

28th March. 1.5mgs

29thMarch. 0.75mgs

30thMarch. 0mgs

The mania and mood swings did not return after this withdrawal.

I did feel ill flu like dizzy. Moved head and eyes followed seconds later.

One day I had 3 real waves of depression

So ok my withdrawal was quick but it did start in mid end Feb and it is now mid April.

2.5mgs seems to be the start of unpleasant withdrawals for me.

Hope you can understand the physiological effect the thought of increasing to 2.5mgs has on me.

 

Just been reading the guys post from Japan and feel for him.

Been there with drink and drugs.

My AA sponsor said today that 25 years in AA has provided me with a lot of free group therapy and the insight that gives. I've had ordinary therapy. I've done CBT.

I pray and I meditate.

Today I have gardened and walked. Headache and tinnitus not good. But it's my brain regrowing:-) so it's ok?

If I told u what my job used to be you'd be shocked.

I was a high functioning addict alcoholic.

[Rhiannon]

I just want to add, not addressed so much to you but to other people who read this thread (because it's new and active so there are lots of "lurkers," many of whom are just learning, some of whom will one day be moderators here): I haven't read the Glenmullen book so I can't comment on his taper. However, I've read other stuff by other docs and also of course worked with hundreds of people in withdrawal, and what it seems to me is that there is HUGE variation in how withdrawal plays out for people.

 

It seems to me that most of the people who come off the meds fairly uneventfully (like I did the first time) have a fairly uncomplicated history--they haven't been on and off them and up and down on dosages and on and off multiple meds, that sort of thing. We often get people in here who say they did fine going on and off the first couple of times but then the third or fourth time it hit them hard. So for anyone who's had that sort of experience, you're not alone.

 

And I don't think doctors who have seen people come off fairly easily and recover from the worst of the withdrawals in a month or so are crazy or stupid, either.

 

However, what those doctors often don't see or take into account is WHY people end up "going on and off"; and that's the "relapse" period that often kicks in around three to six months out, when people get hit with symptoms again. That is what happened to me my first time coming off Prozac--not much trouble coming off, but three months later I went into a deep depression and had to go back on. That situation is almost always diagnosed as "relapse" and then people are told they "need" the meds and...well, y'all know the story.

 

The thing about that story is, untreated unmedicated depression does not typically relapse in that time frame and in fact 70% of the time resolves spontaneously and NEVER relapses again. Look it up: that was the typical course of depression before the onset and massive common usage of these AD drugs. Now the typical course (medicated) is "chronic" and relapsing. (Anatomy of an Epidemic by Robert Whitaker has lots of good citations on this, but you can also do your own research and read original materials talking about treating depression written before about 1980, versus the stuff being written now.)

 

So I don't discount Glenmullen's work, even though I haven't read it, but from the description it sounds like he may be talking mostly about the less complicated cases, and he may not be taking into account that although people often get resolution of the initial withdrawal symptoms fairly quickly there can be renewed onset of other symptoms later in the course. I doubt he's even considering that as part of withdrawal; I don't know, not having read the book.

 

Okay, lecture over, recess time... :-)

 

Thanks for sticking around, please keep us posted!

[Northcoastboy]

Hi guys

Symptoms became progressively worse.

Mood dipped and I became difficult to live with for my family and myself.

Chronic tinnitus

Chronic sleep disturbance

Painful tension in top of arms and neck and head.

Reinstated 2 drops of liquid Citalopram = 4 to 5mgs

I will hopefully of not left it too late!

 

It took me 25 years to get of booze and codeine. So I'm in the for the long haul and prepared for a long slow taper. If and when I settle down by reinstating

[dalsaan]

Sorry to hear things got worse. Hope the reinstatement works. Take care

 

Dalsaan

[Petunia]

I'm also sorry symptoms got worse, but happy to hear you have reinstated, it may take a few weeks, but I hope you start to feel better soon.  Please would you add the reinstatement to your signature.

Reinstated 2 drops of liquid Citalopram = 4 to 5mgs
 

 

Its very important to make sure you are taking the same dose each day, especially at low doses.  I have read that using a small syringe  can be more accurate.

[cymbaltawithdrawal5600]

You said above:

 

"2.5mgs seems to be the start of unpleasant withdrawals for me.

Hope you can understand the physiological effect the thought of increasing to 2.5mgs has on me."

 

Things will be different this time. You will get support here for a slow taper which will give your body a chance to adjust. You'll see. Keep your eyes on what you can do and are doing in the present and your future will take care of itself.

[Northcoastboy]

Thanks guys

I admit that at about 6am this morning after little sleep I panicked and took 10 mgs. Can't undo it now. But will take 5mgs tomorrow.

About every 15 mins 8 get a wave of depression which makes me well up with tears and the usual "I can't go on thoughts"

Will change signature when I change tomorrow.

[Northcoastboy]

Just re read altostrata post about reinstating at 2.5mgs. Will take that advice tomorrow and try not to listen to my head!

[cymbaltawithdrawal5600]

Be careful and watch what you are doing. You have to pick a dose and stick with it and you have to be very careful that you are getting the dose accurately. See Petu's post. If you need help, ask us and someone will verify your method. You have to stay at a dose long enough to get a feeling of stability FOR YOU. Expect to feel rotten for a bit from that 10 mg jolt. Grit your teeth and you can get through it. Remember that lying quietly in bed even if you can't sleep is enough. Those of us in WD insomnia are still alive and functioning, even at a reduced level, because we get 'rest'. You will too. You can control your mind and ignore the screaming thoughts because it is the WD talking, not you.

 

Have you read the topic on 'neuro emotions'?

 

http://survivingantidepressants.org/index.php?/topic/137-neuro-emotion/

 

You can do this! It's hard and I know only too well how hard it is. If you persist, your body will eventually calm down a bit more and more and WD and tapering will be a bit easier. We eventually recover but we have to work at it.

[Northcoastboy]

Thanks Cymba

I'm listening this time. Yep read the neuro emotion and keep saying that to myself. Just been walking dog in sunshine great day and I kept crying. Wow real powerful emotions. Thanks for night time advice. I get awful tension in my upper arms neck at night. I'm relaxed and try to breath calmly. This awful tension wakes me or keeps me awake. I fall asleep easily and awake with brain zaps/anxiety.

Been practising mindful breathing. Tape where I relax whole body. Doesn't seem to touch the tension in muscles.

As you say it's a symptom and not something I'm doing or not doing.

[cymbaltawithdrawal5600]

Good job! I just made a post to Bayboy about 'rest'. It's something we have to do.

 

No getting around it, supporting our body in WD is hard going but we have to do everything we can to give our bodies a chance to heal. It goes so very slowly but try not to concentrate on that