btdt

Chronic Fatigue - Prozac

144 posts in this topic

There are some things that may be partly right like drugs to increase blood flow the brain... I wish I was teflon

What seems like a summer shower to some is sandblasting to me... oh to be teflon coated... what a dream. 

"Some of us seem to be teflon though so not much help for us it seems."

 

Yeah, I guess what you wrote makes more sense...

 

The drugs didn't really so much bounce off me as they lodged in me like shrapnel...lol

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There are some things that may be partly right like drugs to increase blood flow the brain... I wish I was teflon

What seems like a summer shower to some is sandblasting to me... oh to be teflon coated... what a dream. 

"Some of us seem to be teflon though so not much help for us it seems."

 

Yeah, I guess what you wrote makes more sense...

 

The drugs didn't really so much bounce off me as they lodged in me like shrapnel...lol

 

 

 

 

on page 107 he mentions auto immunological processes and pulmonary fibrosis ....

these are new to me. He is talking about side effects of prozac and stated like drugs do the same. 

 

 

yes like shrapnel ......... could it be this immune thing he speaks off I do wonder.  I know they say not much money goes to research.  I read about this odd thing today a state where the body shuts down the blood flow in areas of the brain by way of the immune system... I can't recall where I was or what I was reading but I know it said that... why is nobody joining these dots?  EVER I feel so frustrated being sick again... and again and again.

 

I have had bouts of this so long now. 

 

After reading about that blood flow issue due to immunity today I read about this

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immune_reconstitution_inflammatory_syndrome

 

getting sick when the immune system is getting better... then all these old things come back... I have had so much even had that stuff on the side like chicken pox... can't think of the name of it... I know they are talking about Aid recovery and something else but whatever... grasping at straws as always... 

 

I am killing time to get to the next antibiotic so I can go to bed... time is up hope you sleep well. 

peace

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I had to choose a mitochondria thread today I picked the first one out of weariness.... and put my post there but I feel I may never be able to find it again and I may want it to get the name of the supplements... so I am putting it here...

 

http://survivingantidepressants.org/index.php?/topic/1754-coq10/

 

It is also a post about how laser therapy can heal the mitochondria and ATP or something like that... I know such important stuff coming from one so unlearned and unimportant reminds me of a bible verse ... will use the least of them ... sure feel like the least and today that is ok. peace 

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Just when I think I am done something else comes to mind... 

 

i wanted to keep a record of the supplements mentioned here

http://spacedoc.com/stephen_sinatra_3

acetyl-L-carnitine

propionyl-L-carnitine

 

as well as the CoQ10 (Q-Gel)

 

I looked up the two L- Carnitines together in a google search ended up here... 

http://www.life-enhancement.com/magazine/article/1702-carnitines-better-than-testosterone-for-impotence

Propionyl-L-Carnitine, Acetyl-L-Carnitine, and Lipoic Acid

Carnitines—Better Than 
Testosterone for Impotence 

Propionyl and acetyl carnitine derivatives beat 
sex hormone at its own game and enhance Viagra’s benefits
By Will Block

 

seems the more I look the more connection there are to be made... now I am not saying this is going to heal sexual dysfunction ...but what if it did... lol sex a long  lost memory

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hi btdt, just reading, or skimming this thread.  I started reading about Chronic Fatigue this morning, so sure I had it.....  

Yes, all caused by giving up the medications.   By this afternoon thank god, reinstating Zoloft, and reinstating St Johns Wort, I had enough energy to get up and do things.

These drugs are the cause, giving them up is pure horror.

thanks for the thread, and wish you well

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hi btdt, just reading, or skimming this thread.  I started reading about Chronic Fatigue this morning, so sure I had it.....  

Yes, all caused by giving up the medications.   By this afternoon thank god, reinstating Zoloft, and reinstating St Johns Wort, I had enough energy to get up and do things.

These drugs are the cause, giving them up is pure horror.

thanks for the thread, and wish you well

Thanks Ang I have been following you thread but I don't have any advice I am not a taper person... I don't know much about going back on either as that idea stopped working for me years ago.  

CF is another small gift... another one that gets no credence or attention... same old. Thanks for dropping by

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I found a new link today 

http://www.medicalinsider.com/mitochondrial.html

 

 

  • Mitochondrial Dysfunction & CFS - Medical Insider
    www.medicalinsider.com/mitochondrial.html
    •  
    •  

    Causes and treatments for mitochondrial dysfunction in Chronic Fatigue ... from AKG to Succinic acid involves the reconversion of ADP to ATP; Succinic acid ...

     

     

    There is a lot of information here I am not sure what to do with but feel I have to start some place.  

    peace all

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The statins can also mess with mitochondria, and side effects are weakness, destruction of muscle tissue, memeory loss, and possibly depression. Hmmm.

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I know WC I quit one the same day I quit effexor and clonadine and verapamil... I quit a bunch all on the same day I think a stomach med too..  

Looking back it is amazing I am here. 

 

I found a great site about statins called spacedoc.com the man who runs it was a doctor for NASA so he had some pull... think he was retired when he got hit with side effects but since he was no slouch to start with and knew some of the right people he went to find out what caused his damage... it was the statin... there are ways to help heal it too other than not taking the statin.

 

if you know anyone who needs this info send them there.  

spacedoc.com

 

peace

 

There has been a lot of research showing mitochondrial damage in kids with  autism spectrum disorder too so there is some movement in this direction but it is painfully slow going. When you think they first time I read about prozac causing mitochondra damage was in 2008 and that i took prozac in 89/90 that is 20 years in between those years... and another 7+ years since then... that is almost a lifetime... very slow going.

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I know WC I quit one the same day I quit effexor and clonadine and verapamil... I quit a bunch all on the same day I think a stomach med too..  

Looking back it is amazing I am here. 

 

I found a great site about statins called spacedoc.com the man who runs it was a doctor for NASA so he had some pull... think he was retired when he got hit with side effects but since he was no slouch to start with and knew some of the right people he went to find out what caused his damage... it was the statin... there are ways to help heal it too other than not taking the statin.

 

if you know anyone who needs this info send them there.  

spacedoc.com

 

peace

 

There has been a lot of research showing mitochondrial damage in kids with  autism spectrum disorder too so there is some movement in this direction but it is painfully slow going. When you think they first time I read about prozac causing mitochondra damage was in 2008 and that i took prozac in 89/90 that is 20 years in between those years... and another 7+ years since then... that is almost a lifetime... very slow going.

I remember the situation with the spacedoc.   Pretty awful.

 

Ironic about kids with Autism since they are a sitting target for psyc meds.  Gotta medicate the h-ll out of those neurological differences.    Yes, I am being sarcastic.

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unfoldingsky..can you let us know the name of the herb you mentioned..

 

thanks very much.

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https://babyfoodsteps.wordpress.com/2012/05/14/mthfr-mito-link/

 

MTHFR, Folic Acid, and Mitochondrial Disease… is there a link?

 

Here is what that looks like visually see the light baby blue box in the middle of the diagram below with the letters MTHFR. Now look to the left…see the black circle labled KREBS CYCLE (also known as the Citric Acid Cycle)?? Guess what …this is the entry into “MITO LAND”…by which OXPHOS and electron transport chain is fueled.. soo if you have an issue with your MTHFR gene, and for that matter any other gene (all the other colored boxes in the diagram) in your methylation cycle… could it have an effect down-stream on your mitochondria?? YOU BETCHA! Folate conversion also affects Glutathione {G} production (you can read this post for more info on why {G} is so important), it had been shown that mitochondrial patients (and autistic children) are low in {G}, meaning that their ability to detoxify certain environmental stressors (such as chemicals, food additives, bacteria and medications) is low, meaning that these stressors can cause more damage the longer they hang around inside the body and the cell- esp. to your mitochondria. SO LOW FOLATE= LOW {G} PRODUCTION= LOW DETOXIFICATION=HIGHER TOXIC LOAD= MORE MITOCHONDRIAL DAMAGE  (you can see how this can start a cycle that can be destructive)

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http://www.phyllis-chesler.com/118/chronic-fatigue-immune-dysfunction-syndrome

 

 We do know that there has been research -- underreported by the media -- which demonstrates that the illness has an organic basis.

"For example, in 1994, Dr. Mark Demitrack, a clinical research physician at the Lilly Research Laboratories and adjunct associate professor of psychiatry at the University of Michigan Medical Center, compared CFIDS and psychiatric patients. He discovered that in the CFIDS patients, the hypothalamic- pituitary-adrenal axis (DHEA) is significantly lowered. Depressed patients in that study showed exactly the reverse -- they have significantly high DHEA levels. In addition, other studies have shown brain abnormalities. Brain lesions are evidenced on MRI. In a 1992 study brain perfusions, which resemble those seen in AIDS and in Alzheimer's -- although reversible in a CFIDS patient -- were detected. This means that less blood is getting to the brain of a CFIDS patient.

 

Other studies have demonstrated that CFIDS patients have statistically low levels of the hormone cortisol; statistically high (abnormal) levels of immunological titres in blood samples; and, in some cases, neurally mediated hypotension. University of Miami immunologist Dr. Nancy Kilmas has shown that CFIDS patients suffer a greater deficiency of natural killer cells (which control viruses and cancers), than AIDS patients do. Dr. L.O. Simpson, a research fellow at Otago Medical School in Dunedin, New Zealand, has found a consistent red blood cell abnormality in the blood of both Gulf War Syndrome and CFIDS patients. This abnormality results in an inadequate delivery of oxygen, nutrients, chemicals, to muscles and tissues, following exertion."

 

The first of many physicians my disability insurance company ordered me to see said that I did not have CFIDS. He insisted that CFIDS did not really exist, or, if it did, was rare -- but that I might be suffering from a psychiatric ailment. The second disability company physician said that if I could turn up for an office visit and wait for hours in her office, that I could not be "that sick." The company insisted that I see a psychiatrist.

He diagnosed me too -- with an unnecessary amount of vitriol and misogyny -- as "practically psychotic." Perhaps he thought he was doing me a favor. He'd said that the only way he ever got an insurance company to cover his early AIDS patients was if he'd diagnosed them as psychiatrically impaired. A year later, when the company forced me to see him again, this psychiatrist pronounced me "completely cured."

:)

Surely, the man deserves a Nobel Prize for being able to cure psychosis within a year and in only two visits! Sadly, being psychiatrically diagnosed did not cure me. No matter how dutifully I took the recommended low dosage of antidepressants prescribed by my internist my physical symptoms never went away. The medication allowed me to sleep, for which I was exceedingly grateful. Some physicians believe that some antidepressants are effective because they also have antiviral effects.

Yep antidepressants are now antivirals... oh my.. what will they be next I do wonder...

 

She goes on to say a lot actually there are docs with it trying to get research.. one interesting tidbit for me is 

 

" Dr. L.O. Simpson, a research fellow at Otago Medical School in Dunedin, New Zealand, has found a consistent red blood cell abnormality in the blood of both Gulf War Syndrome and CFIDS patients" 

 

His daughter has it... he came to Canada and collected blood he got mine .. he needed a large amount of samples to test I paid him some money he sent me a report that means nothing to any doctor I have ever seen. 

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http://psychologyofpain.blogspot.ca/2013/03/pain-medicine-news-opioid-receptors.html

 

and

 

Fibromyalgia and the Brain: New Clues Reveal How Pain and Therapies are Processed

http://www.prohealth.com/library/showarticle.cfm?libid=17699

http://forums.phoenixrising.me/index.php?threads/fibromyalgia-imaging-study-shows-unique-brain-connectivity.35612/page-2
Friday, March 08, 2013
Pain Medicine News - µ-Opioid Receptors Impaired in Fibromyalgia Patients, Study Shows

A negative correlation was seen between the change in blood oxygenation level–dependent (BOLD) signal and the μ-opioid receptor binding in several regions of the brain involved in processing and controlling pain. These included the right posterior insula (R= –0.82; P=0.0004), left medial insula (R= –0.82; P=0.0003), left orbital frontal cortex (R= –0.75; P=0.0004) and right amygdala (R= –0.68; P=0.002).

Positive correlations also were found in the right dorsolateral prefrontal cortex (R=0.66;P=0.003), posterior cingulate (R=0.62; P=0.006) and the right putamen (R=0.72; P=0.0008).

"When opioid receptor binding went down, the evoked brain pain response went up in key brain regions that are involved in pain processing, such as the insula and amygdala," Dr. Harris said. He proposed two possible explanations: either the receptors were downregulated or activating the receptors actually caused pain.

http://psychologyofpain.blogspot.com/2013/03/pain-medicine-news-opioid-receptors.html
 
 

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Medication-induced mitochondrial damage and disease.
Abstract

Since the first mitochondrial dysfunction was described in the 1960s, the medicine has advanced in its understanding the role mitochondria play in health and diseaseDamage to mitochondria is now understood to play a role in the pathogenesis of a wide range of seemingly unrelated disorders such as schizophrenia, bipolar disease, dementia, Alzheimer's disease, epilepsy, migraine headaches, strokes, neuropathic pain, Parkinson'sdisease, ataxia, transient ischemic attack, cardiomyopathy, coronary artery disease, chronic fatigue syndrome, fibromyalgia, retinitis pigmentosa, diabetes, hepatitis C, and primary biliary cirrhosis. Medications have now emerged as a major cause of mitochondrial damage, which may explain many adverse effects. All classes of psychotropic drugs have been documented to damage mitochondria, as have stain medications, analgesics such as acetaminophen, and many others. While targeted nutrient therapies using antioxidants or their precursors (e. g., N-acetylcysteine) hold promise for improving mitochondrial function, there are large gaps in our knowledge. The most rational approach is to understand the mechanisms underlying mitochondrial damage for specific medications and attempt to counteract their deleterious effects with nutritional therapies. This article reviews our basic understanding of how mitochondria function and how medications damage mitochondria to create their occasionally fatal adverse effects.

 

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed?term=Medication-induced%20mitochondrial%20damage%20and%20disease

 

from this doc here

http://www.madinamerica.com/2012/12/the-head-bones-connected-to-the-body-bone/

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Someone wrote:  (sorry, forgot to write down their name):

 

mag and vit B12 shots reported to help here

 

Good luck getting the B12 shots, at least in USA and UK and Australia.  Those of us with CFS / ME, and even pernicious anaemia have to promise our first born son, and our own career, to get a cheap B12 shot!

 

It used to be (in the 50's before blood assays were coded on insurance) that if you were feeling poorish, a B12 shot was the "go-to" treatment for the friendly family doc.  This has been eliminated from practice. 

 

I haven't done it personally, but I’m on a pernicious anaemia board, and they cry about how difficult it is all the time - or - they will get 3 months of shots, then cut off.  That's the limit…..

 

Sheesh.  They give us the bad stuff, and won't give us the good.

 

Unfolding wrote:

 

Also I found out just recently, apparently both low and high iron can cause fatigue, which makes me wonder if supplementing iron pushed me too high?

 

 

I didn't think I took a lot, but wonder if maybe something is wrong that pushed it too high?  I don't seem to have many of the other symptoms though, however I don't know how much of what I read about symptoms was true.  Of course for all I know high iron doesn't cause fatigue, I heard that on a TV show...Not really into the idea of seeing the doctor at the moment to get this sorted out.  I need more energy to do that...

 

 

It's not about "low" and "high" but balance.  High iron can be quite dangerous - as can high calcium, and copper (be very leery of "blended" supplements that include copper!  One practitioner tested her fatigue patients, and found that 85% of them had too high copper!)

 

Calcium cancels out Iron, Iron interacts with other minerals like Iodine, and Magnesium, which can affect your energy levels and your thyroid, for example.  High iron = low calcium, magnesium and iodine (if I understand correctly), Low iron, and calcium can get out of control (magnesium and iodine rarely do).  It's not about "high" and "low," but about balance.  

 

If you are taking Iron, but not taking B vitamins, you can easily get too much iron - each needs the other to "cascade" properly.  I've been told not to take iron and copper, because they block the minerals I need to heal.  If you are a menstruating woman, you might need some iron supplementation, but you need to take your iron separate from dairy, calcium, and magnesium.  You need to separate calcium from magnesium, too.

 

So many supplements just lump all of these contradictory elements together in the same package.  Sadly, "multivitamins" have too little of each to be of benefit.

 

I really do recommend professionals, if possible, for overseeing supplementation - so that you can get blood tests, tissue mineral & toxin analysis, hair analysis - or in the case of Chinese medicine - tongue check and pulses checked.  SOME sort of outside information to guide you, besides just "I'm tired, I'll try iron."  THAT is what the doctors who prescribed your psych drugs would do, lol!

 

For myself, when I turned 14, my periods were heavy and crampy and awful.  So Western allopathic docs supplemented me with iron my entire life.  But what I know now, I would've done huge amounts of B vitamins, to compensate for what I was not absorbing in my food, and in my iron tablets.  I can't tell you what B vitamins you need - and - B vitamins in particular are activating for people in withdrawal.  But if you are fatigued, B12 is likely the first one to consider.  B12 is also required to move your iron through your cells as needed.

 

I think, in my case, I come down on the side of Chronic Fatigue, rather than "withdrawal" - but I need to emphasize that my chronic fatigue would be caused by long term use of psychiatric drugs, antihistamines (which are kin to psych drugs), and repeated use of antibiotics.  Functionally, there was something different going on with me, but medicine didn't know what to do with it.  So iatrogenically induced chronic fatigue, for me, exacerbated by loss of thyroid & ovaries....

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I feel like ive been run over by a truck. That's how weak and fatigued I am. I know this is gonna pass. I hope im right so my guess is by February 2016 it will pass!

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http://kellybroganmd.com/hpv-vaccine-katie-couric/

 

We’re Just Talkin’ Here: HPV Vaccine
 
 
I know it does not appear to fit but to me just now it all fits and I want it here because one day when I feel better I am coming back to this post and try and join some dots... 
peace B

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chemical brain injury Dr kill burn check the name... it may be wrong...check the date it is not wrong...1998 make me pissed....no it does not say drugs still 

 

 

Chemical Injuries
 

We take for granted the fact that chemical injuries to certain organ systems are recognized as being very real, such as asbestosis and reactive airway disease. While attorneys today take that premise as a given, this truth was not always accepted in the medical or legal communities. Even today, with numerous chemical injuries not being an area subject to much controversy, the idea of chemical brain injuries can still draw skeptics to the discussion.
 

Chemical brain injuries are considered by many to be the overlooked TBI. Dr. Kaye Kilburn, a University of Southern California Professor of Medicine, authored a groundbreaking treatise in 1998 (republished since) on chemical brain injuries. He has participated in several studies that delve into the question of why chemical brain injuries do not garner more attention from researchers. Dr. Kilburn has posited the controversial yet evidence-based notion that conditions such as multiple chemical sensitivity (MCS), fibromyalgia, chronic fatigue syndrome, sick building syndrome, Gulf War syndrome, ADHD, and others may seem very different in their clinical presentations, but research has demonstrated they all may be induced by chemicals.

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Unfolding wrote:

 

Also I found out just recently, apparently both low and high iron can cause fatigue, which makes me wonder if supplementing iron pushed me too high?

 

 

I didn't think I took a lot, but wonder if maybe something is wrong that pushed it too high?  I don't seem to have many of the other symptoms though, however I don't know how much of what I read about symptoms was true.  Of course for all I know high iron doesn't cause fatigue, I heard that on a TV show...Not really into the idea of seeing the doctor at the moment to get this sorted out.  I need more energy to do that...

 

 

It's not about "low" and "high" but balance.  High iron can be quite dangerous - as can high calcium, and copper (be very leery of "blended" supplements that include copper!  One practitioner tested her fatigue patients, and found that 85% of them had too high copper!)

 

Calcium cancels out Iron, Iron interacts with other minerals like Iodine, and Magnesium, which can affect your energy levels and your thyroid, for example.  High iron = low calcium, magnesium and iodine (if I understand correctly), Low iron, and calcium can get out of control (magnesium and iodine rarely do).  It's not about "high" and "low," but about balance.  

 

If you are taking Iron, but not taking B vitamins, you can easily get too much iron - each needs the other to "cascade" properly.  I've been told not to take iron and copper, because they block the minerals I need to heal.  If you are a menstruating woman, you might need some iron supplementation, but you need to take your iron separate from dairy, calcium, and magnesium.  You need to separate calcium from magnesium, too.

 

So many supplements just lump all of these contradictory elements together in the same package.  Sadly, "multivitamins" have too little of each to be of benefit.

 

I really do recommend professionals, if possible, for overseeing supplementation - so that you can get blood tests, tissue mineral & toxin analysis, hair analysis - or in the case of Chinese medicine - tongue check and pulses checked.  SOME sort of outside information to guide you, besides just "I'm tired, I'll try iron."  THAT is what the doctors who prescribed your psych drugs would do, lol!

 

For myself, when I turned 14, my periods were heavy and crampy and awful.  So Western allopathic docs supplemented me with iron my entire life.  But what I know now, I would've done huge amounts of B vitamins, to compensate for what I was not absorbing in my food, and in my iron tablets.  I can't tell you what B vitamins you need - and - B vitamins in particular are activating for people in withdrawal.  But if you are fatigued, B12 is likely the first one to consider.  B12 is also required to move your iron through your cells as needed.

 

I think, in my case, I come down on the side of Chronic Fatigue, rather than "withdrawal" - but I need to emphasize that my chronic fatigue would be caused by long term use of psychiatric drugs, antihistamines (which are kin to psych drugs), and repeated use of antibiotics.  Functionally, there was something different going on with me, but medicine didn't know what to do with it.  So iatrogenically induced chronic fatigue, for me, exacerbated by loss of thyroid & ovaries....

 

Thanks for this Jan.  I knew some of it, though some of the other parts I hadn't heard.

 

I'm not sure I can handle taking B vitamins at all, tried B12 in early withdrawal and that did not go well.  Every time it's checked it tests fine too.  Iron on the other hand was not testing so great.  I don't take copper, had already been warned about it leaching magnesium. I never take blended supplements either, there's no way I could handle them, I was one of the people who became severely sensitive to everything in withdrawal...

 

Today is a really bad day, I suddenly got hit with a weird wave of severe fatigue to a point I feel I can barely move.  My mind is not foggy though (though I do still have retained memory issues) so I'm rather at a loss as to explain this, as it usually happens that bad wave=brain fog.  If the fatigue gets much worse I'm worried I'll be bedridden.  I don't even have the energy to sort out what is going on anymore...

 

I'd like to look into mitochondria too but just not up to it.  btdt, I hope you are making some progress with your fatigue?  

 

I haven't been out much this winter, and was out for a walk a few days ago, is it possible that a short walk could cause a severe setback in terms of fatigue that lasts a few days when you are so far out off drugs (five years)???    The weather here has changed, it's a lot warmer, and I don't do well with those sorts of changes but I was actually feeling a bit better once it got above zero...now I feel like I'm a hundred years old...

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Yes even a small amount of activity can cause fatigue so can changes in the weather for folks with this disorder. 

 

I was reading the fibro page ME call it what you like... about brain changes in patients with chronic fatigue 

 

 

 

http://forums.phoenixrising.me/index.php?threads/new-paper-progressive-brain-changes-in-cfs.44319/

 

worth the bother to read the thread post # 15 talks about antidepressants

 

J Magn Reson Imaging. 2016 Apr 28. doi: 10.1002/jmri.25283. [Epub ahead of print]
Progressive brain changes in patients with chronic fatigue syndrome: A longitudinal MRI study.
Shan ZY1, Kwiatek R2, Burnet R3, Del Fante P4, Staines DR1, Marshall-Gradisnik SM1, Barnden LR1.
Author information

Abstract
PURPOSE:
To examine progressive brain changes associated with chronic fatigue syndrome (CFS).

MATERIALS AND METHODS:
We investigated progressive brain changes with longitudinal MRI in 15 CFS and 10 normal controls (NCs) scanned twice 6 years apart on the same 1.5 Tesla (T) scanner. MR images yielded gray matter (GM) volumes, white matter (WM) volumes, and T1- and T2-weighted signal intensities (T1w and T2w). Each participant was characterized with Bell disability scores, and somatic and neurological symptom scores. We tested for differences in longitudinal changes between CFS and NC groups, inter group differences between pooled CFS and pooled NC populations, and correlations between MRI and symptom scores using voxel based morphometry. The analysis methodologies were first optimized using simulated atrophy.

RESULTS:
We found a significant decrease in WM volumes in the left inferior fronto-occipital fasciculus (IFOF) in CFS while in NCs it was unchanged (family wise error adjusted cluster level P value, PFWE < 0.05). This longitudinal finding was consolidated by the group comparisons which detected significantly decreased regional WM volumes in adjacent regions (PFWE < 0.05) and decreased GM and blood volumes in contralateral regions (PFWE < 0.05). Moreover, the regional GM and WM volumes and T2w in those areas showed significant correlations with CFS symptom scores (PFWE < 0.05).

CONCLUSION:
The results suggested that CFS is associated with IFOF WM deficits which continue to deteriorate at an abnormal rate. J. Magn. Reson. Imaging 2016.

© 2016 The Authors Journal of Magnetic Resonance Imaging published by Wiley Periodicals, Inc. on behalf of International Society for Magnetic Resonance in Medicine.

KEYWORDS:
chronic fatigue syndrome; inferior fronto-occipital fasciculus; longitudinal MRI; voxel based morphometry

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I wonder if they could catch those changes if they were scanning you for something else?  I've been for several scans before and they keep saying I'm okay. 

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I wonder if they could catch those changes if they were scanning you for something else?  I've been for several scans before and they keep saying I'm okay. 

 

That is a real good question and of course I do not know the answer.  

I have had brain scans too many of them at this point.  I don't think they always tell us everything they find.  The white matter in my brain is not normal that I know I cannot at this point recall what was wrong with it.  I have kept a list of name of the people all the way back to pp days that have the same or similar brain scan results... there are a few of us.  

 

I think of all the problems I am having with my body and brain now and there does not seem to be a common denominator unless it could be the brain symptoms basically cover most bodily systems. I am tried so very tired of testing to find nothing or nothing they can understand and treat to make this go away.... unneeded testing to rule things out or find out things about me that don't feel the need to share with me or did they share and I forget... it is hard to say at this point. I have become an unreliable witness to my own experiences as my brain is too messy to be trusted. This is exactly why that doctor named her book the Perfect Crime... they make you so stupid you cannot complain or sue them... you don't know your damaged or if you do your to sick and stupid to help yourself or find any justice.... can't think of her name but the book is called perfect crime... brain disabling drugs of psychiatry I think. 

 

There comes a point where one must consider treatment or lack of it... for me lack of it will be the norm as I do not believe any doc knows how to fix this and I and my docs know I can't do the drugs... I just can't. I wonder how many people have been in this state before me unaware of why ... kind of bone chilling to think pharma and politicians know all about this and do nothing... just watch us drop one by one. It the mean time we rust away on wd sites... waiting for that elusive healing. 

sorry I am not cheerful think I will go to sleep...

 

peace all

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I'm trying to catch up here and not doing too well at it, I keep getting hit with cog fog and computer crashes...

 

I am noticing and not sure if you are noticing this too but if I eat sugar or sit in front of the computer I just am wiped, like not thinking clearly wiped. 

 

I hate this but I really think the computer is not doing me any favors...and I may need to weed out sugar for a while.  Not that it has horrific effects like it used to but I can't handle these waves of fogginess.  I can't forgo the computer though.

 

Right now I'm not that tired but the fog is making me pretty useless.  I'll have to give your last post another try later.  Hope you are doing well btdt, getting a break.

 

Also just wanted to post a note to myself here that I wanted to look up adrenal fatigue again.  I know initially in withdrawal this is not the issue (Alto's elaborated on that) but I do wonder if later on you can burn your adrenals out.

 

Much of what I have read about solutions was the same as what I did in terms of lifestyle changes in early withdrawal--diet particularly was almost an exact match to what I figured out on my own.  So maybe I could just try that anyway. 

 

More later...

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It is odd US how it fluctuates but so does the waves and window right same deal there is something real and fundamental at the bottom of that I... a cycle like our periods maybe but it is very finnnng real... I have the same stuff.... like you sorted it back it comes.  I will be sure to tell you if I find any answers..for real. 

 

Sorry your struggling but it is how it is we both know that will see you on the upswing when we both have brains that are functioning. and wishing you peace in the mean time.

B

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Hi btdt,

 

I'm foggy again and am having an issue with my eyes so I can't spend as much time here as I'd like to, they cloud over the longer I am here, but I wanted to put this down to pick up hopefully tomorrow...I can only guess as to why this is but I seem to be having some minor success helping the fatigue to an extent by taking fresh dandelion either just as raw leaves or as a leaf tea.

 

I will hopefully be back with more on that...I need to read your thread too and see what's been going on with you and of course answer the above posts.  Hope your night is going well and really hope that movement/seizure issue is calming down.

 

Much healing to you,

 

US

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Well I just found out dandelion has a lot of iron in it, more than spinach, so, that would easily explain why it seemed to help me with fatigue as my iron has been known to go a bit low. 

 

One mystery solved! 

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From what I recall from the liver diet dandilions detox the liver and kidneys lightening the toxic load can surely help improve fatigue... other things food things is lemon... half a lemon juiced in a cup of warm water first thing in the morning is suggested but any time of the day is better than none.  

There are the B vitamins too which I think are helpful I am take B1 every single day it helps me think without it I go off the rail... B5 when my mind wants to take me down paths I don't want to go B5 is the brake for ocd ramblings that wont stop or songs repeating it works like magic B1 is more a brain fog helper. 

So detoxing our poor tired drug metabolizers liver and kidneys and throwing in some vitamins and minerals to boot... when I was juicing.. dandilion was in the mix... juicer broke and we now have the nija thing ... I hate it.. can't swallow the grain crap that it makes... need to buy a new juicer.. if you juice throw in lemon juice a pealed raw beat... some garlic if you like it. 

 

PS 

I just learned from the Environmental Illness clinic that Fibro and Chronic Fatigue are both considered environmental illnesses...

 

.Gulf war syndrome has been thrown in the mix too if you read this page..

http://lisanagy.com/

she says this causes neurological and auto immune diseases... I tried to copy it but nothing on her page can be copied you have to go there and look .. I don't like that.

 

and I am now on the next step up which is multiple chemical sensitivities....

 

I know all those years I was told it was auto immune ect... sounds like we have been sold a bill of goods that should not surprise us anymore as it seems to be a common theme. 

 

There are a group of doctors that treat this some use LDA therapy... 

https://www.aaemonline.org/

 

doctors that do LDA

http://www.drshrader.com/lda_physicians.htm

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I started reacting to chemicals in dish soap around wd time... at the start of this bs... I had not heard of mcs and now that I have there are mountains of information enough to choke a person... too much. But none my doctor has ever heard of seem familiar to you it sure does to me a new title a new step same old pattern tho.... more bs

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Since this mcs dx I have tried a lot of supplements these have been helpful... 

glycine seems to push thru a reaction so it ends faster I take a lot

glutathione

B1  I was already on will never stop vit E already on will never stop CQ 10 same... 

 

new one is  L methionine not sure about it yet

 

I can now tolerate mag and take natural calm every night

 

I use arnica on pain think it helps me sleep but not sure I only use it at night usually that is when I hurt most

Edited by scallywag
note: MCS = multiple chemical sensitivity

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this study

http://www.pnas.org/content/113/37/E5472.full

 

I read about it here:

 

http://forums.phoenixrising.me/index.php?threads/naviaux-et-al-metabolic-features-of-chronic-fatigue-syndrome.46486/

 

Seems it is ground breaking and finally we will learn that depending somewhat on your genetics and maybe other things... I can pretty stupid at the moment.. many different drugs can cause this... many.  Suspected bit in how this happens is... let me look as I forget...

 

mTOR 

it is best to read it yourself. 

 

I was first sent the study by the environmental health clinic where I was dx with mcs...multiple chemical sensitivity... they suggest it is the next step in chronic fatigue syndrome not suggest they said it.  I have had it for months but have been unable to read it.. more infections more pulled teeth (soon I will be toothless)  I am way behind but on the same site phoenix rising they are asking for money to do the next stage of research and the man who did it answers questions from people at the site... he had a couple of talks I am not well enough to follow.

 

I am going to look up mTOR.  

 

Read the link and tell me what it says in case I am all wet... peace all 

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I am not understanding any of the mTOR stuff today a waste of time... so I decided to do a free fall note about what I think I read in that study.  There is something called dauer... it is a state of hibernation that some worms enter when time are tough.  In this study we stack up to being in this sort of state when they looked at what they call metabolomics I can't recall much else I am too tired from over doing it trying to sort this information out. So we are trying to function while in a type of hibernating state.. one thing I read was that to keep pushing is bad for us and keeps this disorder perpetual... I am not so sure I believe that.  I have seen me be in bed a very long time without pushing anything... we will see maybe.  

 

There are a lot variables but it looks like this may be the lead we need.. getting the funding for the work is another story.  

 

There are some things they say helps but the only one I can recall is glycine... 

 

sorry I am so out of it I will come back when I am more stable... please don't hold your breath... ;) peace

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this may not work here it is about the research

Donate to the End ME/CFS Project!
It's got Ron Davis! clear.png
It's got three Nobel Prize winners! clear.pngclear.pngclear.png
Big Data, Severely Ill - they're not messing about
Donate here

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