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Dr. Stuart Shipko's controversial views on tapering


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I'm afraid Dr. Shipko is inclined to make the most dramatic statements, then when questioned will soften them somewhat. His MIA piece seemed to say there is a high risk of permanent damage from going off drugs. However, in a clarification http://survivingantidepressants.org/index.php?/topic/4787-mia-blog-entry-by-dr-shipko-on-wd/?p=60372 , he admitted that probably only the very unlucky few have long-term problems, and even then they may recover over time. What he meant to say in his original post is that people need to be prepared for possibly becoming unable to work or otherwise incapacitated for a time because of withdrawal syndrome (or whatever he wants to call it). If he had written his article as a report of some of the worst problems he's encountered in getting people off psychiatric drugs, it would have been much more valuable. Instead, he's muddied the waters by making going off seem highly risky. He also completely mis-spoke in implying that tapering is NOT a safer way of going off drugs -- he knows how to taper, he knows it's safer, and will provide that service.

That's my impression of Shipko actually--that he's a bit of an egotistical showboater. I'm not sure he really understands the true consequences of his words in terms of actual lives that might be ruined because of things he says with such certainty that are actually not nearly as certain as he claims.

 

I just think he gets a bit sensationalistic (not to say arrogant, although that may be part of the problem too) and doesn't really think it through.

 

I've never really cared for his work. I might like him in person if we had a good deep conversation, but I find him lacking in true compassion and depth of understanding of the actual consequences of what he says and how he says it.  Humility is not strong in this one. Which is not a good thing when lives are at stake.

Started on Prozac and Xanax in 1992 for PTSD after an assault. One drug led to more, the usual story. Got sicker and sicker, but believed I needed the drugs for my "underlying disease". Long story...lost everything. Life savings, home, physical and mental health, relationships, friendships, ability to work, everything. Amitryptiline, Prozac, bupropion, buspirone, flurazepam, diazepam, alprazolam, Paxil, citalopram, lamotrigine, gabapentin...probably more I've forgotten. 

Started multidrug taper in Feb 2010.  Doing a very slow microtaper, down to low doses now and feeling SO much better, getting my old personality and my brain back! Able to work full time, have a full social life, and cope with stress better than ever. Not perfect, but much better. After 23 lost years. Big Pharma has a lot to answer for. And "medicine for profit" is just not a great idea.

 

Feb 15 2010:  300 mg Neurontin  200 Lamictal   10 Celexa      0.65 Xanax   and 5 mg Ambien 

Feb 10 2014:   62 Lamictal    1.1 Celexa         0.135 Xanax    1.8 Valium

Feb 10 2015:   50 Lamictal      0.875 Celexa    0.11 Xanax      1.5 Valium

Feb 15 2016:   47.5 Lamictal   0.75 Celexa      0.0875 Xanax    1.42 Valium    

2/12/20             12                       0.045               0.007                   1 

May 2021            7                       0.01                  0.0037                1

Feb 2022            6                      0!!!                     0.00167               0.98                2.5 mg Ambien

Oct 2022       4.5 mg Lamictal    (off Celexa, off Xanax)   0.95 Valium    Ambien, 1/4 to 1/2 of a 5 mg tablet 

 

I'm not a doctor. Any advice I give is just my civilian opinion.

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I also thought that Gia had a very good point in her comments (if this is the piece I think it is)--it's irresponsible to claim that people will be harmed for life when nobody actually has that information. That data does not exist. Those studies have not been done.

 

He is just speculating based on a handful of difficult cases where people have not fully recovered over the course of the time he has known them.

 

As I have said elsewhere, I personally don't know anyone with protracted withdrawal (and no other health issues complicating the picture) who feels that they have simply stopped having any further improvement, even if it is very slow now, and unless you follow a statistically significant cohort over the full course of their lives you simply cannot claim that you have information you don't have.

Started on Prozac and Xanax in 1992 for PTSD after an assault. One drug led to more, the usual story. Got sicker and sicker, but believed I needed the drugs for my "underlying disease". Long story...lost everything. Life savings, home, physical and mental health, relationships, friendships, ability to work, everything. Amitryptiline, Prozac, bupropion, buspirone, flurazepam, diazepam, alprazolam, Paxil, citalopram, lamotrigine, gabapentin...probably more I've forgotten. 

Started multidrug taper in Feb 2010.  Doing a very slow microtaper, down to low doses now and feeling SO much better, getting my old personality and my brain back! Able to work full time, have a full social life, and cope with stress better than ever. Not perfect, but much better. After 23 lost years. Big Pharma has a lot to answer for. And "medicine for profit" is just not a great idea.

 

Feb 15 2010:  300 mg Neurontin  200 Lamictal   10 Celexa      0.65 Xanax   and 5 mg Ambien 

Feb 10 2014:   62 Lamictal    1.1 Celexa         0.135 Xanax    1.8 Valium

Feb 10 2015:   50 Lamictal      0.875 Celexa    0.11 Xanax      1.5 Valium

Feb 15 2016:   47.5 Lamictal   0.75 Celexa      0.0875 Xanax    1.42 Valium    

2/12/20             12                       0.045               0.007                   1 

May 2021            7                       0.01                  0.0037                1

Feb 2022            6                      0!!!                     0.00167               0.98                2.5 mg Ambien

Oct 2022       4.5 mg Lamictal    (off Celexa, off Xanax)   0.95 Valium    Ambien, 1/4 to 1/2 of a 5 mg tablet 

 

I'm not a doctor. Any advice I give is just my civilian opinion.

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Rhi,

 

In my statement above, I was referring to Marmite who had to get a pacemaker when her heart rate dropped to 10bpm during withdrawal. Also, Aria has a permanent neurological condition. I can't prove a causal link between my MRI findings/demyelination, but there is a woman in Denmark whose case went to court for very similar findings caused by SSRIs. The main symptoms of demyelination in my case are depression, mood swings, pain, fatigue. And hallucinations in some cases. Very similar to symptoms of withdrawal.

 

Of course, demyelination is a hallmark in many neurologic conditions and have psych manifestations that are treated with ADs and APs. I'm certain that I would not have found this out had I not withdrawn as I did. The symptoms emerged when drug was withdrawn so I still hold out hope that it will improve.

 

I understand what you're saying about lack of studies proving causal link, but there is a lot of anecdotal info floating around. I suspect if all of us got MRIs, patterns would emerge. (I DO NOT recommend this because having it on film really screws with the mind. :( )

 

How was it proven that SSRIs cause fetal issues, autism, etc...? Fewer confounding factors make it clearer, I assume.

 

I'm getting off topic of Dr.Shipko's writings but wanted to explain my earlier comment.

Pristiq tapered over 8 months ending Spring 2011 after 18 years of polydrugging that began w/Zoloft for fatigue/general malaise (not mood). CURRENT: 1mg Klonopin qhs (SSRI bruxism), 75mg trazodone qhs, various hormonesLitigation for 11 years for Work-related injury, settled 2004. Involuntary medical retirement in 2001 (age 39). 2012 - brain MRI showing diffuse, chronic cerebrovascular damage/demyelination possibly vasculitis/cerebritis. Dx w/autoimmune polyendocrine failure.<p>2013 - Dx w/CNS Sjogren's Lupus (FANA antibodies first appeared in 1997 but missed by doc).

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  • 3 weeks later...
  • Moderator Emeritus

 

http://www.wired.com/gadgetlab/2013/08/gl_honan-conversation/

 

Comment Sections Are Wastelands Ruled by Trolls. Here Are Alternatives.

By Mat Honan 08.23.13

A decade or more ago, Internet publishers entered into what now seems like a collective delusion: That a comments section is a necessary component of a web page. Granted, that notion is a relic of an era predating social media, when there was no effective way to talk publicly about what we read online. But it persists with zombie determination. We’ve bought into the fallacy of comments so completely that they remain nearly universal—and universally terrible. A lot of people have tried to fix them. Yet, as Digg CEO Andrew McLaughlin says, “everyone who runs a commenting system ends up killing themselves or shooting up a post office.” It’s hyperbole, sure, but trying to wrangle online conversations is a messy, frustrating, and typically thankless affair that involves more time than most people have. Even a dedicated team of moderators can hardly compete with legions of trolls and spambots. Nonetheless, lots of people are trying to make you read the comments again—because in those rare moments when comments are great, they are some of the best parts of the Internet.

 

 

 

Certainly has been my experience. The only blog that I read the comments of is my favorite left-wing snarky political commentary site, which has a standing joke that they don't allow comments. (Commenters have to be approved and comments are heavily moderated.)

 

Unmoderated forums are just as bad. Just too many crazies out there with nothing better to do. Or something.

Started on Prozac and Xanax in 1992 for PTSD after an assault. One drug led to more, the usual story. Got sicker and sicker, but believed I needed the drugs for my "underlying disease". Long story...lost everything. Life savings, home, physical and mental health, relationships, friendships, ability to work, everything. Amitryptiline, Prozac, bupropion, buspirone, flurazepam, diazepam, alprazolam, Paxil, citalopram, lamotrigine, gabapentin...probably more I've forgotten. 

Started multidrug taper in Feb 2010.  Doing a very slow microtaper, down to low doses now and feeling SO much better, getting my old personality and my brain back! Able to work full time, have a full social life, and cope with stress better than ever. Not perfect, but much better. After 23 lost years. Big Pharma has a lot to answer for. And "medicine for profit" is just not a great idea.

 

Feb 15 2010:  300 mg Neurontin  200 Lamictal   10 Celexa      0.65 Xanax   and 5 mg Ambien 

Feb 10 2014:   62 Lamictal    1.1 Celexa         0.135 Xanax    1.8 Valium

Feb 10 2015:   50 Lamictal      0.875 Celexa    0.11 Xanax      1.5 Valium

Feb 15 2016:   47.5 Lamictal   0.75 Celexa      0.0875 Xanax    1.42 Valium    

2/12/20             12                       0.045               0.007                   1 

May 2021            7                       0.01                  0.0037                1

Feb 2022            6                      0!!!                     0.00167               0.98                2.5 mg Ambien

Oct 2022       4.5 mg Lamictal    (off Celexa, off Xanax)   0.95 Valium    Ambien, 1/4 to 1/2 of a 5 mg tablet 

 

I'm not a doctor. Any advice I give is just my civilian opinion.

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Yes, it's obvious a lightly moderated Web comments section cannot claim to be offering Open Dialogue therapy.

This is not medical advice. Discuss any decisions about your medical care with a knowledgeable medical practitioner.

"It has become appallingly obvious that our technology has surpassed our humanity." -- Albert Einstein

All postings © copyrighted.

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I just read the first few paragraphs and didn't need to go beyond his thoughts that prescribing a benzo is an option. I have no words beyond the ones that I posted in response to that. What kind of an idiot adds more drugs to an already bad situation, worst of all, benzos? Idiot much?

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  • 2 months later...

http://www.madinamerica.com/2013/08/ssri-discontinuation-is-even-more-problematic-than-acknowledged/

 

Basically Shipko says that some people will develop a form of Tardive Dyskinesia/akathesia and last forever even after the drugs are stopped.

 

Pretty irresponsible and hopeless, this article.  Like Shipko says, there's no studies or research done on any of this, so let's not  take his OPINION too seriously.

 

Alto, I see you responded to him on his article.  Any further thoughts on this?

On Venlafaxine XR 75mg > 20 years, because a general MD decided to try these new "calming pills" taken from his sample closet because my pulse was a little high since I get nervous going to the doctor.

 

June 2010 - Cold turkey

September 2010 - Sudden onset of EXTREME anxiety, constant terror and fear that got marginally better at night.  I had no idea what or why this was; had no idea it was the quitting of Effexor. 

December 2010 - reinstated 75mgs Effexor XR, felt no better months later

January 2011 - Began 5% taper every month

2012 - Anxiety began improving by had many windows and waves

January 2014 - Fell back into sudden onset of same anxiety, fear as in 2010; realized I was tapering too quickly.  I was not allowing withdrawal effects to dissipate before another taper.  Began 2% taper every 6 to 8 months

2016 - Fear, anxiety began to wane

2017, 18 & 19 - Constant Fear & anxiety stopped, just occasional minor bouts that lasted 3 days or so

December 2020 - Now at ~31mgs Effexor XR, 5mgs Crestor 

November 2022 - Added 6% minoxidil and 0.3% finasteride topical. Used for a year. Got systemic side effects. Quit 11/19/2023. Also intermittently used 10 to 20mgs propanolol for adrenaline surges/pvcs. Stopped them also on 11/19/2023.

 
 
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I read this piece some time ago and found it disturbing. Agreed with one of his respondents who pointed out that his anecdotal evidence is based on his own patient population: people with very severe original or withdrawal problems, and that this "data" doesn't form a sound basis for drawing broad conclusions. I am making a choice today to try to take good care of myself during a very slow withdrawal process and plod along with patience, humor, and hope. It's scary but I think possible.

Current:

 

*Abt 1995, started fluoxetine 20 mg/day, later raised to 40 mg; *Abt 1997, started Klonopin ? mg/day

*Abt [??] started first, very slow Klon taper

*Sept 2016, Klon updosed; swapped fluox for duloxetine/lamotrigine/Seroquel (very small dose of last, for sleep) cocktail

*Early 2018, stopped Seroquel; *2020, started second Klon taper

*Abt July 2022, accidental 33% Klon cut, w/no updose; have been holding for 15 mos

*Mar 2023, abrupt lamotrigine cut from 75- to 50 mg/day; *May-June 2023, abrupt dulox cut from 90 mg- to 60 mg/day

*As of June 2023, taking lamotrigine 50 mg/day, duloxetine 60 mg/day, Klonopin .25 mg/day, metoprolol 50 mg/day, Eliquis 5 mg/day, levothyroxine 75 mcg/day

 

"Forget to remember; remember to forget."

 

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Here is the link to where this was discussed:

 

http://survivingantidepressants.org/index.php?/topic/4787-mia-blog-entry-by-dr-shipko-on-wd/

 

Controversial, to say the least.....

What happened and how I arrived here: http://survivingantidepressants.org/index.php?/topic/4243-cymbaltawithdrawal5600-introduction/#entry50878

 

July 2016 I have decided to leave my story here at SA unfinished. I have left my contact information in my profile for anyone who wishes to talk to me. I have a posting history spanning nearly 4 years and 3000+ posts all over the site.

 

Thank you to all who participated in my recovery. I'll miss talking to you but know that I'll be cheering you on from the sidelines, suffering and rejoicing with you in spirit, as you go on in your journey.

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See above. Dr. Shipko wrote in a way that can be easily misconstrued.

This is not medical advice. Discuss any decisions about your medical care with a knowledgeable medical practitioner.

"It has become appallingly obvious that our technology has surpassed our humanity." -- Albert Einstein

All postings © copyrighted.

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Hopefull

 

Shipko has responded to many folks but has neglected to respond to my critical comments...I find this interesting..perhaps he's thinking about how to do it...

 

hmmm

Hopefully, that is the situation because you definitely raised some points that deserve a response.

 

I will be honest though about admitting that I am not as upset about his blog entry as most people are.  I am not sure why.

 

Maybe because it seems my life has gone downhill greatly since I started tapering off of these meds so what Shipko was stating wasn't a great shock.   I mean, I really had no choice but to taper them since I was suffering horrible side effects. But to be honest, if someone had forcasted the troubles I would go through before tapering, it would have made me think extra hard about whether I wanted to do this or not. I still would have but at least, having the discussion would have been helpful.

 

I think also I wonder if I had stayed on the meds and had been diagnosed with sleep apnea, if it would have been easier to adjust to sleeping on the machine since I wouldn't have been dealing with withdrawal insomnia. But I know there is no guarantee I would have been diagnosed with it if I had stayed on the meds.

 

CS

Me too!  Right after my cold turkey from Effexor is when I got sleep apnea.

On Venlafaxine XR 75mg > 20 years, because a general MD decided to try these new "calming pills" taken from his sample closet because my pulse was a little high since I get nervous going to the doctor.

 

June 2010 - Cold turkey

September 2010 - Sudden onset of EXTREME anxiety, constant terror and fear that got marginally better at night.  I had no idea what or why this was; had no idea it was the quitting of Effexor. 

December 2010 - reinstated 75mgs Effexor XR, felt no better months later

January 2011 - Began 5% taper every month

2012 - Anxiety began improving by had many windows and waves

January 2014 - Fell back into sudden onset of same anxiety, fear as in 2010; realized I was tapering too quickly.  I was not allowing withdrawal effects to dissipate before another taper.  Began 2% taper every 6 to 8 months

2016 - Fear, anxiety began to wane

2017, 18 & 19 - Constant Fear & anxiety stopped, just occasional minor bouts that lasted 3 days or so

December 2020 - Now at ~31mgs Effexor XR, 5mgs Crestor 

November 2022 - Added 6% minoxidil and 0.3% finasteride topical. Used for a year. Got systemic side effects. Quit 11/19/2023. Also intermittently used 10 to 20mgs propanolol for adrenaline surges/pvcs. Stopped them also on 11/19/2023.

 
 
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  • 2 weeks later...

http://www.madinamerica.com/2013/08/ssri-discontinuation-is-even-more-problematic-than-acknowledged/

 

Basically Shipko says that some people will develop a form of Tardive Dyskinesia/akathesia and last forever even after the drugs are stopped.

 

 

 

I had severe akathisia in early withdrawal and then a variant (it was "controlled" by other drugs I was put on, at least partly, though they also caused it--what's often not told to people in a scenario like mine is that almost all  psych drugs they'll try to put you on to treat it can cause it) for a number of years.  I may also have tardive dyskinesia.  The akathisia did go away eventually.  I spent a long time looking through the medical info available online about akathisia when I was first injured and I can't claim to have found any that documents permanent akathisia from any drug.  Obviously some people will be drugged for it so I suppose it's possible, but, though there are some reports of long-standing akathisia like I had, I could find none where it was actually permanent.

 

And regarding tardive dyskinesia, it is a risk with antidepressants and one people should be made aware of BEFORE they take the drugs.   However, at least in my case,  you wouldn't even know I had it.  It's become very mild, which may have something to do with how I treated it (I tried a bunch of different ways including a few which have likely never been documented before, and they seem to have helped) or may be just the course it would have taken anyway, or more likely, a combination of both. I also got off drugs and stayed off them, which I believe is probably critical to clearing it up.  So, again, even though it sounds dire (and I'm not saying it isn't for some--a friend had it really badly after being given a boatload of drugs over decades) it's not the case that winding up with it invariably means a massive amount of suffering for everyone.  (Just to be clear though, I never would have taken drugs had I known they could cause it, or other problems like akathisia.)

 

It's entirely possible that it will clear up for me.  I also have read of another case which was fairly similar to mine where, apparently, the person suffering had it in a really severe way for a long time, then abruptly it stopped.  So it would appear there's hope that even people who are severely harmed by drugs in these ways can recover. 

I am not a medical professional and nothing I say is a medical opinion or meant to be medical advice, please seek a competent and trusted medical professional to consult for all medical decisions.

 

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Many people do recover from akathisia.

 

If you read the ENTIRE discussion with Dr. Shipko, you will see in the comments he explains he is talking about extreme cases. His lead article was not very clear.

 

John, please do not surf the Web looking for discouraging information. The Web is so large and so full of garbage, you will be sure to find any viewpoint you seek.

 

Please read more in this site for background information that will enable you to assess what you see elsewhere.

This is not medical advice. Discuss any decisions about your medical care with a knowledgeable medical practitioner.

"It has become appallingly obvious that our technology has surpassed our humanity." -- Albert Einstein

All postings © copyrighted.

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II will pop in and say that my dad had extreme tardive dyskinesia that was missed because he has a severe traumatic brain injury with progressive symptoms. Because of his increasing disability he was moved to a nursing home in my mom's town. It was the lowly country doctor, after the specialists, who insisted that the antipsychotic be stopped (and replaced with a small dose of Lamictal). Within a year, he was a different person.

1st round Prozac 1989/90, clear depression symptoms. 2nd round Prozac started 1999 when admitted to dr. I was tired. Prozac pooped out, switch to Cymbalta 3/2006. Diagnosed with bipolar disorder due to mania 6/2006--then I was taken abruptly off Cymbalta and didn't know I had SSRI withdrawal. Lots of meds for my intractable "bipolar" symptoms.

Zyprexa started about 9/06, mostly 5mg. Tapered 4/12 through12/29/12

Wellbutrin. XL 300 mg started 1/07, tapered 1/18/13 through 7/8/13

Oxazepam mostly continuously since 6/06, 30mg since 12/12, tapered 1.17.14 through 8.26.15

11/06 Lithium 600mg twice daily, 2.2.14 400mg TID DIY liquid, 2.12.14 1150mg, 3.2.14 1100mg, 3.18.14 1075mg, 4/14 updose to 1100mg, 6.1.14 900 mg capsules 7.8.14 810mg, 8.17.14 725mg, 8.24.24 700mg...10.22.14 487.5mg, 3.9.15 475mg, 4.1.15 462.5mg 4.21.15 450mg 8.11.15 375mg, 11.28.15 362.5mg, back to 375mg four days later, 3.4.16 updose to 475 (too much going on to risk trouble)

9/4/13 Toprol-XL 25mg daily for sudden hypertension, tapered 11.12.13 through 5.3.14, last 10 days or so switched to atenolol

7.4.14 Started Walsh Protocol

56 years old

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  • 6 months later...
  • Moderator Emeritus

Kermit, the discussions manager, told me he's applying the Finnish "Open Dialog" philosophy to the comments section, on the theory that "crazy disappears" in a context of permissive listening. 

Ha!

 

OMG that is seriously hilarious.

 

This guy may be nice, but he clearly has very little experience with the Internet. He needs to spend a few weeks on reddit. Or 4chan.

Started on Prozac and Xanax in 1992 for PTSD after an assault. One drug led to more, the usual story. Got sicker and sicker, but believed I needed the drugs for my "underlying disease". Long story...lost everything. Life savings, home, physical and mental health, relationships, friendships, ability to work, everything. Amitryptiline, Prozac, bupropion, buspirone, flurazepam, diazepam, alprazolam, Paxil, citalopram, lamotrigine, gabapentin...probably more I've forgotten. 

Started multidrug taper in Feb 2010.  Doing a very slow microtaper, down to low doses now and feeling SO much better, getting my old personality and my brain back! Able to work full time, have a full social life, and cope with stress better than ever. Not perfect, but much better. After 23 lost years. Big Pharma has a lot to answer for. And "medicine for profit" is just not a great idea.

 

Feb 15 2010:  300 mg Neurontin  200 Lamictal   10 Celexa      0.65 Xanax   and 5 mg Ambien 

Feb 10 2014:   62 Lamictal    1.1 Celexa         0.135 Xanax    1.8 Valium

Feb 10 2015:   50 Lamictal      0.875 Celexa    0.11 Xanax      1.5 Valium

Feb 15 2016:   47.5 Lamictal   0.75 Celexa      0.0875 Xanax    1.42 Valium    

2/12/20             12                       0.045               0.007                   1 

May 2021            7                       0.01                  0.0037                1

Feb 2022            6                      0!!!                     0.00167               0.98                2.5 mg Ambien

Oct 2022       4.5 mg Lamictal    (off Celexa, off Xanax)   0.95 Valium    Ambien, 1/4 to 1/2 of a 5 mg tablet 

 

I'm not a doctor. Any advice I give is just my civilian opinion.

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Yeah.

This is not medical advice. Discuss any decisions about your medical care with a knowledgeable medical practitioner.

"It has become appallingly obvious that our technology has surpassed our humanity." -- Albert Einstein

All postings © copyrighted.

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  • 4 weeks later...

Remember how scared I got about akathesia when I read an article from Dr. Shipko.

 

Well, he has posted an update to the old article Playing The Odds. It is encouraging.

 

Playing the Odds, Revisited July 21 2014

http://www.madinamerica.com/2014/07/shooting-odds-revisited/

Prozac 1999-2009 quit semi cold turkey.

 

2012 Placed on Seroquel 25 mg, Tranxene (Clorezepate) 3.75 mg 3x a day, Remeron 30 mg for anxiety/akathesia.

 

Weaned off Seroquel and Tranxene .to Remeron 15 Mg.

In May 2014 tried quitting Remeron at its lowest dose. Had severe withdrawals.Reinstated Remeron at 30 mg by doctor. August 5 2014 entered hospital. Doctor pulled the Remeron and bridged it to Pamelor (Nortriptyline) 40mg and Zyprexa 2.5mg.After removing the Remeron all my bad symptoms went away and I am stable.

 

9/11/14 - 7.5 mg tranxene, 40mg Pamelor, Zyprexa 2.5mg

12/29/14 -  20mg Pamelor, 1/6/15,  7/31/15 3.5mg, 8/10/15 3.2 mg, 9/15/15 2.2mg, 10/15/15 1.8mg

(Feb 2016 - 1.4mg Pamelor only -  OFF OF TRANXENE AND ZYPREXA SINCE DEC 2014 BENZO FREE Since 2014. Nortrityline (Pamelor) .8mg Aug 2016

March 2017 DRUG FREE

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Here is an updated version from Shipko, more encouraging

 

Playing the odds, revisited

http://www.madinamerica.com/2014/07/shooting-odds-revisited/

Prozac 1999-2009 quit semi cold turkey.

 

2012 Placed on Seroquel 25 mg, Tranxene (Clorezepate) 3.75 mg 3x a day, Remeron 30 mg for anxiety/akathesia.

 

Weaned off Seroquel and Tranxene .to Remeron 15 Mg.

In May 2014 tried quitting Remeron at its lowest dose. Had severe withdrawals.Reinstated Remeron at 30 mg by doctor. August 5 2014 entered hospital. Doctor pulled the Remeron and bridged it to Pamelor (Nortriptyline) 40mg and Zyprexa 2.5mg.After removing the Remeron all my bad symptoms went away and I am stable.

 

9/11/14 - 7.5 mg tranxene, 40mg Pamelor, Zyprexa 2.5mg

12/29/14 -  20mg Pamelor, 1/6/15,  7/31/15 3.5mg, 8/10/15 3.2 mg, 9/15/15 2.2mg, 10/15/15 1.8mg

(Feb 2016 - 1.4mg Pamelor only -  OFF OF TRANXENE AND ZYPREXA SINCE DEC 2014 BENZO FREE Since 2014. Nortrityline (Pamelor) .8mg Aug 2016

March 2017 DRUG FREE

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I agree his update is more encouraging.

 

However, I am still discouraged that he seems to minimize withdrawal issues in benzos.   Hopefully, he will eventually come around on that issue.

 

CS

Drug cocktail 1995 - 2010
Started taper of Adderall, Wellbutrin XL, Remeron, and Doxepin in 2006
Finished taper on June 10, 2010

Temazepam on a PRN basis approximately twice a month - 2014 to 2016

Beginning in 2017 - Consumption increased to about two times per week

April 2017 - Increased to taking it full time for insomnia

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  • Administrator

Dr. Shipko has written an updated article, see http://survivingantidepressants.org/index.php?/topic/6773-an-update-from-dr-shipko-very-encouraging/ Comments should be posted there.

 

As Dr. Shipko's August 2013 article has caused nothing but confusion, I'm going to close this topic now.

 

If you are confused, be sure to read the clarification of Dr. Shipko's August 2013 article cited in post #1 of this topic http://survivingantidepressants.org/index.php?/topic/4787-mia-blog-entry-by-dr-shipko-on-wd/?p=60372

This is not medical advice. Discuss any decisions about your medical care with a knowledgeable medical practitioner.

"It has become appallingly obvious that our technology has surpassed our humanity." -- Albert Einstein

All postings © copyrighted.

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Many people were confused by Dr. Shipko's August 2013 article; our discussion here http://survivingantidepressants.org/index.php?/topic/4787-mia-blog-entry-by-dr-shipko-on-wd/

 

They failed to read the clarification of Dr. Shipko's August 2013 article lower down in that topic http://survivingantidepressants.org/index.php?/topic/4787-mia-blog-entry-by-dr-shipko-on-wd/?p=60372

 

Since that topic has caused so much confusion, I've closed it to further discussion with a pointer to this topic.

 

Clearly, Dr. Shipko is still formulating his thinking about withdrawal syndrome. He is very experienced in the use of benzos and seems confident in using them to help patients get over rough patches in "tardive akathisia." We see here that sometimes people do need occasional or short-term use of benzos to settle their nervous systems.

 

And then they need to taper off the benzos, which can be difficult, too.

 

Dr. Shipko does acknowledge the risks of benzos and says many of his "tardive akathisia" patients are desperate, thus it's a calculated risk for their benefit.

 

Still, I see some of our benzo withdrawal people are there to educate him further. As I said, it looks like he's still formulating his thinking. I'm glad someone is thinking about it.

 

I do not think he's yet completely up to speed on very gradual tapering -- though I see he's made a concession to it in this current article -- or all the ramifications of prolonged post-discontinuation syndrome.

 

We have a collection of longitudinal case histories here -- it's called the Introductions forum. This could help educate Dr. Shipko and other doctors, which is one of its purposes.

This is not medical advice. Discuss any decisions about your medical care with a knowledgeable medical practitioner.

"It has become appallingly obvious that our technology has surpassed our humanity." -- Albert Einstein

All postings © copyrighted.

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I read the link and still have not read he has had a patient who had a paradoxical reaction to a benzo while in withdrawal... just putting it out there as he said he read the benzo boards maybe he reads this one too. 

So off putting that people have to go there and educate him and he is one of the good ones that is scary.  We needs a few specialist to really work this withdrawal issue and establish some protocols for withdrawal.  I am not sure how we go about getting that small chore done.  Since he says people are finding him randomly now not knowing he has a special interest in this area... it would seem the flood gates are opening and perhaps the demand for such services will create a market for such a working group.  I had always hoped word would get out and things would change without it coming to this ..this as in more and more people being damaged... but apparently I am very naive or optimistic...It would have to be naive.  

peace  

WARNING THIS WILL BE LONG
Had a car accident in 85
Codeine was the pain med when I was release from hosp continuous use till 89
Given PROZAC by a specialist to help with nerve pain in my leg 89-90 not sure which year
Was not told a thing about it being a psych med thought it was a pain killer no info about psych side effects I went nuts had hallucinations. As I had a head injury and was diagnosed with a concussion in 85 I was sent to a head injury clinic in 1990 five years after the accident. I don't think they knew I had been on prozac I did not think it a big deal and never did finish the bottle of pills. I had tests of course lots of them. Was put into a pain clinic and given amitriptyline which stopped the withdrawal but had many side effects. But I could sleep something I had not done in a very long time the pain lessened. My mother got cancer in 94 they switched my meds to Zoloft to help deal with this pressure as I was her main care giver she died in 96. I stopped zoloft in 96 had withdrawal was put on paxil went nutty quit it ct put on resperidol quit it ct had withdrawal was put on Effexor... 2years later celexa was added 20mg then increased to 40mg huge personality change went wild. Did too fast taper off Celexa 05 as I felt unwell for a long time prior... quit Effexor 150mg ct 07 found ****** 8 months into withdrawal learned some things was banned from there in 08 have kept learning since. there is really not enough room here to put my history but I have a lot of opinions about a lot of things especially any of the drugs mentioned above.
One thing I would like to add here is this tidbit ALL OPIATES INCREASE SEROTONIN it is not a huge jump to being in chronic pain to being put on an ssri/snri and opiates will affect your antidepressants and your thinking.

As I do not update much I will put my quit date Nov. 17 2007 I quit Effexor cold turkey. 

http://survivingantidepressants.org/index.php?/topic/1096-introducing-myself-btdt/

There is a crack in everything ..That's how the light gets in :)

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  • 2 months later...

How is the above update encouraging? He doesn't say anything to contradict his previous conclusions posted in this article:

http://www.madinamerica.com/2013/08/ssri-discontinuation-is-even-more-problematic-than-acknowledged/

"Citizen scientists developed a set of corollary beliefs; primarily that the protracted withdrawal is largely due to stopping the drug too fast and that if one waits long enough that the symptoms of protracted withdrawal are going to go away.  My clinical observation is that long lasting symptoms occur even in patients who taper very slowly, not just those who stop quickly, and that there is no guarantee that these symptoms will go away no matter how long the patient waits."

(This is true for me)

"Those who are on self-help websites want to believe that if they wait long enough (however disabled they may be in the meantime) that they will get better.  The people that I have seen, suffering and disabled, waiting years for the ‘withdrawal’ to end are heartbreaking – particularly when they may be waiting for something that is not going to end."

 

What if for some of us, the so called withdrawal will never end?

2005-2008: Effexor; 1/2008 Tapered 3 months, then quit. 7/2008-2009 Reinstated Effexor (crying spells at start of new job.)
2009-3/2013: Switched to Pristiq 50 mg then 100 mg
3/2013: Switched to Lexapro 10mg. Cut down to 5 mg. CT for 2 weeks then reinstated for 6 weeks
8/2013-8/2014: Tapering Lexapro (Lots of withdrawal symptoms)
11/2014 -8/2015: Developed severe insomnia and uncontrollable daily crying spells
12/2014-6/2015: Tried Ambien, Klonopin, Ativan, Lunesta, Sonata, Trazadone, Seroquel, Rameron, Gabapentin - Developed Anxiety disorder, PTSD, and Psychogenic Myoclonus
7/2015-1/2016: Reinstated Lexapro 2 mg (mild improvement, but crying spells still present)

1/2016-5/2017: Lexapro 5 mg ( helped a lot, but poor stress tolerance & depressive episodes)

5/20/2017 - Raised dose to Lexapro 10 mg due to lingering depression(Total of 2 failed tapers & severe PAWS)

9/11/2018 - Present: Still on 10 mg Lexapro and mostly recovered.(Anxiety still triggers Myoclonus.)

10/7/2022 - 20 mg Lexapro (brand only) Plus occasional Klonopin for anxiety and Ambien for insomnia.

 

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Remember how scared I got about akathesia when I read an article from Dr. Shipko.

 

Well, he has posted an update to the old article Playing The Odds. It is encouraging.

 

Playing the Odds, Revisited July 21 2014

http://www.madinamerica.com/2014/07/shooting-odds-revisited/

 

You know I really didn't believe that a person could feel fine for 5 months after stopping or even tapering an antidepressant and then suddenly have symptoms of withdrawal. But what happened to me the first time I stopped my antidepressant was exactly as Dr. Shipko describes.  Although I can't say that I was fine, I was functioning well enough to look for jobs and go on interviews. However, the stress of starting a new job triggered severe crying spells and I was forced to go back on Effexor, thinking that this was a relapse.  Yet it didn't make sense. I have NEVER had crying spells before when starting a new job. It wasn't even a career job, just an admin job.  Just like the person in Dr.Shipko's article who suddenly became very frightened of earthquakes, even though they've been through them before just fine.

2005-2008: Effexor; 1/2008 Tapered 3 months, then quit. 7/2008-2009 Reinstated Effexor (crying spells at start of new job.)
2009-3/2013: Switched to Pristiq 50 mg then 100 mg
3/2013: Switched to Lexapro 10mg. Cut down to 5 mg. CT for 2 weeks then reinstated for 6 weeks
8/2013-8/2014: Tapering Lexapro (Lots of withdrawal symptoms)
11/2014 -8/2015: Developed severe insomnia and uncontrollable daily crying spells
12/2014-6/2015: Tried Ambien, Klonopin, Ativan, Lunesta, Sonata, Trazadone, Seroquel, Rameron, Gabapentin - Developed Anxiety disorder, PTSD, and Psychogenic Myoclonus
7/2015-1/2016: Reinstated Lexapro 2 mg (mild improvement, but crying spells still present)

1/2016-5/2017: Lexapro 5 mg ( helped a lot, but poor stress tolerance & depressive episodes)

5/20/2017 - Raised dose to Lexapro 10 mg due to lingering depression(Total of 2 failed tapers & severe PAWS)

9/11/2018 - Present: Still on 10 mg Lexapro and mostly recovered.(Anxiety still triggers Myoclonus.)

10/7/2022 - 20 mg Lexapro (brand only) Plus occasional Klonopin for anxiety and Ambien for insomnia.

 

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How is the above update encouraging? He doesn't say anything to contradict his previous conclusions posted in this article:

http://www.madinamerica.com/2013/08/ssri-discontinuation-is-even-more-problematic-than-acknowledged/

 

Note: ok, looks like I am about a year late in finding Dr.Shipko's articles and all the discussions on SA about them. Hmmm.... he really does strike a raw nerve. I can't help but wonder: If I have to suffer for years stuck in this nightmare, then maybe I should go back on meds, and put myself out of my misery right now.

2005-2008: Effexor; 1/2008 Tapered 3 months, then quit. 7/2008-2009 Reinstated Effexor (crying spells at start of new job.)
2009-3/2013: Switched to Pristiq 50 mg then 100 mg
3/2013: Switched to Lexapro 10mg. Cut down to 5 mg. CT for 2 weeks then reinstated for 6 weeks
8/2013-8/2014: Tapering Lexapro (Lots of withdrawal symptoms)
11/2014 -8/2015: Developed severe insomnia and uncontrollable daily crying spells
12/2014-6/2015: Tried Ambien, Klonopin, Ativan, Lunesta, Sonata, Trazadone, Seroquel, Rameron, Gabapentin - Developed Anxiety disorder, PTSD, and Psychogenic Myoclonus
7/2015-1/2016: Reinstated Lexapro 2 mg (mild improvement, but crying spells still present)

1/2016-5/2017: Lexapro 5 mg ( helped a lot, but poor stress tolerance & depressive episodes)

5/20/2017 - Raised dose to Lexapro 10 mg due to lingering depression(Total of 2 failed tapers & severe PAWS)

9/11/2018 - Present: Still on 10 mg Lexapro and mostly recovered.(Anxiety still triggers Myoclonus.)

10/7/2022 - 20 mg Lexapro (brand only) Plus occasional Klonopin for anxiety and Ambien for insomnia.

 

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How is the above update encouraging? He doesn't say anything to contradict his previous conclusions posted in this article:

http://www.madinamerica.com/2013/08/ssri-discontinuation-is-even-more-problematic-than-acknowledged/

 

Note: ok, looks like I am about a year late in finding Dr.Shipko's articles and all the discussions on SA about them. Hmmm.... he really does strike a raw nerve. I can't help but wonder: If I have to suffer for years stuck in this nightmare, then maybe I should go back on meds, and put myself out of my misery right now.

 

He is talking about very extreme cases.   But that aside, your fears are understandable but you still don't know what will happen.   And if you go back on meds, you might have a worse experience.

 

By the way, I am dealing with a similar situation with pap therapy intolerance.  I fear if I don't get this issue straightened out that the cognitive damage I suffered will at some point become irreversible.   But simply letting that fear overtake me is just not helpful even though understandable.

Drug cocktail 1995 - 2010
Started taper of Adderall, Wellbutrin XL, Remeron, and Doxepin in 2006
Finished taper on June 10, 2010

Temazepam on a PRN basis approximately twice a month - 2014 to 2016

Beginning in 2017 - Consumption increased to about two times per week

April 2017 - Increased to taking it full time for insomnia

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  • 2 months later...

I was speaking with my psy doc and he said that if I quit an antidepressant and the problem returns, it gets much harder to treat.

 

I believe he may be referring to the same tardive anxiety and akathesia Dr Shipko was speaking of.

 

Shipko quote "When patients request help with SSRI toxicity, I ask them why they didn’t go back to their prescribing doctor and ask them to stop the medicine.  The typical answer is not surprising: the physicians are frequently unwilling to stop the medications at all or insist on substituting a similar medication or an antipsychotic medication.  You would think that a high-functioning, more-or-less asymptomatic person asking to stop medications would find their physician agreeable.  My guess is that physicians do not stop the SSRIs because the physicians have already had a few difficult experiences with what can happen after stopping the drugs.  I suspect that physicians want to think that the problems are not withdrawal-related, but a reappearance of the mythical chemical imbalance or a new onset of bipolar disorder."

Prozac 1999-2009 quit semi cold turkey.

 

2012 Placed on Seroquel 25 mg, Tranxene (Clorezepate) 3.75 mg 3x a day, Remeron 30 mg for anxiety/akathesia.

 

Weaned off Seroquel and Tranxene .to Remeron 15 Mg.

In May 2014 tried quitting Remeron at its lowest dose. Had severe withdrawals.Reinstated Remeron at 30 mg by doctor. August 5 2014 entered hospital. Doctor pulled the Remeron and bridged it to Pamelor (Nortriptyline) 40mg and Zyprexa 2.5mg.After removing the Remeron all my bad symptoms went away and I am stable.

 

9/11/14 - 7.5 mg tranxene, 40mg Pamelor, Zyprexa 2.5mg

12/29/14 -  20mg Pamelor, 1/6/15,  7/31/15 3.5mg, 8/10/15 3.2 mg, 9/15/15 2.2mg, 10/15/15 1.8mg

(Feb 2016 - 1.4mg Pamelor only -  OFF OF TRANXENE AND ZYPREXA SINCE DEC 2014 BENZO FREE Since 2014. Nortrityline (Pamelor) .8mg Aug 2016

March 2017 DRUG FREE

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Your psy doc is referring to withdrawal-induced hypersensitivity or iatrogenic "treatment-resistant depression," about which he does not have a clue.

 

It's unclear what Dr. Shipko means by tardive symptoms. I've had many discussions with him about this. Some could be prolonged post-withdrawal syndrome.

This is not medical advice. Discuss any decisions about your medical care with a knowledgeable medical practitioner.

"It has become appallingly obvious that our technology has surpassed our humanity." -- Albert Einstein

All postings © copyrighted.

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  • Moderator Emeritus

I didn't read the whole piece due to lack of time today, but I'm glad to see he's talking about that thing where people can come off the med pretty well initially and then get hit with delayed withdrawal symptoms later-- I usually say three to nine months out, I notice he says three to twelve.

 

This is such a common experience (at least here on this board and I can't imagine it's not that way elsewhere) and it's usually the reason people end up back on the med merry-go-round, often for life.

 

I hate these drugs. Here we are, all of us, working on addressing and treating a disease condition that is created exclusively by "medicine".

 

If doctors had any idea how many of us no longer trust medicine or doctors and mistrust treatment for all conditions after having our lives destroyed by these drugs...Because that's an almost universal response that we see here, too.

 

But another topic. And maybe I'll start it one day.

Started on Prozac and Xanax in 1992 for PTSD after an assault. One drug led to more, the usual story. Got sicker and sicker, but believed I needed the drugs for my "underlying disease". Long story...lost everything. Life savings, home, physical and mental health, relationships, friendships, ability to work, everything. Amitryptiline, Prozac, bupropion, buspirone, flurazepam, diazepam, alprazolam, Paxil, citalopram, lamotrigine, gabapentin...probably more I've forgotten. 

Started multidrug taper in Feb 2010.  Doing a very slow microtaper, down to low doses now and feeling SO much better, getting my old personality and my brain back! Able to work full time, have a full social life, and cope with stress better than ever. Not perfect, but much better. After 23 lost years. Big Pharma has a lot to answer for. And "medicine for profit" is just not a great idea.

 

Feb 15 2010:  300 mg Neurontin  200 Lamictal   10 Celexa      0.65 Xanax   and 5 mg Ambien 

Feb 10 2014:   62 Lamictal    1.1 Celexa         0.135 Xanax    1.8 Valium

Feb 10 2015:   50 Lamictal      0.875 Celexa    0.11 Xanax      1.5 Valium

Feb 15 2016:   47.5 Lamictal   0.75 Celexa      0.0875 Xanax    1.42 Valium    

2/12/20             12                       0.045               0.007                   1 

May 2021            7                       0.01                  0.0037                1

Feb 2022            6                      0!!!                     0.00167               0.98                2.5 mg Ambien

Oct 2022       4.5 mg Lamictal    (off Celexa, off Xanax)   0.95 Valium    Ambien, 1/4 to 1/2 of a 5 mg tablet 

 

I'm not a doctor. Any advice I give is just my civilian opinion.

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Rhi,

Do you think a really slow taper will protect someone from what Dr. Shipko is talking about.

 

I'm kinda scared wondering if it is really worth trying to get off meds. I've had suicidal akethiesia before and was saved by going back on meds. I was off meds for 3 years after prozac before I got anxiety again. I don't want to live a life facing this as my future.

Prozac 1999-2009 quit semi cold turkey.

 

2012 Placed on Seroquel 25 mg, Tranxene (Clorezepate) 3.75 mg 3x a day, Remeron 30 mg for anxiety/akathesia.

 

Weaned off Seroquel and Tranxene .to Remeron 15 Mg.

In May 2014 tried quitting Remeron at its lowest dose. Had severe withdrawals.Reinstated Remeron at 30 mg by doctor. August 5 2014 entered hospital. Doctor pulled the Remeron and bridged it to Pamelor (Nortriptyline) 40mg and Zyprexa 2.5mg.After removing the Remeron all my bad symptoms went away and I am stable.

 

9/11/14 - 7.5 mg tranxene, 40mg Pamelor, Zyprexa 2.5mg

12/29/14 -  20mg Pamelor, 1/6/15,  7/31/15 3.5mg, 8/10/15 3.2 mg, 9/15/15 2.2mg, 10/15/15 1.8mg

(Feb 2016 - 1.4mg Pamelor only -  OFF OF TRANXENE AND ZYPREXA SINCE DEC 2014 BENZO FREE Since 2014. Nortrityline (Pamelor) .8mg Aug 2016

March 2017 DRUG FREE

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  • Moderator Emeritus

Dr. Shipko is smarter about withdrawal and more right on than the vast majority of docs, but he doesn't seem to have much experience with the kind of really long, slow taper that some of us are getting such good results with here.

 

The biggest problem with the long slow taper is that so few people are really prepared to put the kind of commitment and determination into it that it requires. 

 

If you can really wrap your mind around that commitment, taking as many years as it takes, from what I've seen here on this board, I am certain that you can safely reduce your meds to a level that will give you back your self and your life to a very satisfying and joyful level. Even if you never come all the way off everything, just getting to the lowest possible dose of the fewest possible meds can produce amazing, delightful results. The bad effects of these drugs are much less at lower doses.

 

I was suicidal (and almost completely dysfunctional in life) most of the time for 15 years, with two suicide attempts, before I tried the extremely slow taper. I've had some ups and downs during these years but nothing like that kind of agony, and I've been able to work full time and maintain a satisfying life. I've seen the same thing with many other people on this board. 

 

It is absolutely crucial to make only very small changes and to allow lots of time between them. The way you have been tapering (according to your sig line) is much, much too fast for the kind of slow taper that people with complex med histories need.

Started on Prozac and Xanax in 1992 for PTSD after an assault. One drug led to more, the usual story. Got sicker and sicker, but believed I needed the drugs for my "underlying disease". Long story...lost everything. Life savings, home, physical and mental health, relationships, friendships, ability to work, everything. Amitryptiline, Prozac, bupropion, buspirone, flurazepam, diazepam, alprazolam, Paxil, citalopram, lamotrigine, gabapentin...probably more I've forgotten. 

Started multidrug taper in Feb 2010.  Doing a very slow microtaper, down to low doses now and feeling SO much better, getting my old personality and my brain back! Able to work full time, have a full social life, and cope with stress better than ever. Not perfect, but much better. After 23 lost years. Big Pharma has a lot to answer for. And "medicine for profit" is just not a great idea.

 

Feb 15 2010:  300 mg Neurontin  200 Lamictal   10 Celexa      0.65 Xanax   and 5 mg Ambien 

Feb 10 2014:   62 Lamictal    1.1 Celexa         0.135 Xanax    1.8 Valium

Feb 10 2015:   50 Lamictal      0.875 Celexa    0.11 Xanax      1.5 Valium

Feb 15 2016:   47.5 Lamictal   0.75 Celexa      0.0875 Xanax    1.42 Valium    

2/12/20             12                       0.045               0.007                   1 

May 2021            7                       0.01                  0.0037                1

Feb 2022            6                      0!!!                     0.00167               0.98                2.5 mg Ambien

Oct 2022       4.5 mg Lamictal    (off Celexa, off Xanax)   0.95 Valium    Ambien, 1/4 to 1/2 of a 5 mg tablet 

 

I'm not a doctor. Any advice I give is just my civilian opinion.

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Shipko is on my heroes list ...yep he is one of the rock stars for the cause for sure..a very kind and generous person as well.

Keep meaning to get his latest book ...i think its 'uninformed consent' bit controversial i hear.

Thought for the day: Lets stand up, and let’s speak out , together. G Olsen

We have until the 14th. Feb 2018. 

URGENT REQUEST Please consider submitting  for the petition on Prescribed Drug Dependence and Withdrawal currently awaiting its third consideration at the Scottish Parliament. You don't even have to be from Scotland. By clicking on the link below you can read some of the previous submissions but be warned many of them are quite harrowing.

http://www.parliament.scot/GettingInvolved/Petitions/PE01651   

Please tell them about your problems taking and withdrawing from antidepressants and/or benzos.

Send by email to petitions@parliament.scot and quote PE01651 in the subject heading. Keep to a maximum of 3 sides of A4 and you can't name for legal reasons any doctor you have consulted. Tell them if you wish to remain anonymous. We need the numbers to help convince the committee members we are not isolated cases. You have until mid February. Thank you

Recovering paxil addict

None of the published articles shed light on what ssri's ... actually do or what their hazards might be. Healy 2013. 

This is so true, with anything you get on these drugs, dependance, tapering, withdrawal symptoms, side effects, just silent. And if there is something mentioned then their is a serious disconnect between what is said and reality! 

  "Every time I read of a multi-person shooting, I always presume that person had just started a SSRI or had just stopped."  Dr Mosher. Me too! 

Over two decades later, the number of antidepressant prescriptions a year is slightly more than the number of people in the Western world. Most (nine out of 10) prescriptions are for patients who faced difficulties on stopping, equating to about a tenth of the population. These patients are often advised to continue treatment because their difficulties indicate they need ongoing treatment, just as a person with diabetes needs insulin. Healy 2015

I believe the ssri era will soon stand as one of the most shameful in the history of medicine. Healy 2015

Let people help people ... in a natural, kind, non-addictive (and non-big pharma) way. J Broadley 2017

 

 

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Rhi, your post was so valuable and important. Thank you.

 

Is it possible this could be made a sticky on an appropriate section here? I think it addresses concerns and misunderstandings of many members, especially new ones.

I was "TryingToGetWell" (aka TTGW) on paxilprogress. I also was one of the original members here on Surviving Antidepressants

 

I had horrific and protracted withdrawal from paxil, but now am back to enjoying life with enthusiasm to the max, some residual physical symptoms continued but largely improve. The horror, severe derealization, anhedonia, akathisia, and so much more, are long over.

 

My signature is a temporary scribble from year 2013. I'll rewrite it when I can.

 

If you want to read it, click on http://survivingantidepressants.org/index.php?/topic/209-brandy-anyone/?p=110343

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I hadn't thot of tapering down to a really low amount of Zoloft and then staying there.  There are so many variables that I never realized and I am much encouraged that the rigidity of the "old" days is on its way out. 

1971-81  Valium 5mg c/t PAWS     1992- through now Zoloft 25mg    2003-05 Valium 12mg Slow Taper Off

2013 Afrin Exposure to CNS    2013 O/D Val 230mg    2013 Doxepin 50mg Clonidine 2mg Zoloft 25mg

3/15/16  Doxepin 49mg Micro Tapering  Zoloft 24.3mg Holding taper

3/15/16 Clonidine mg 0.1 1/2 -    Decreasing incrementally.  DISCONTINUED

10/9/16  Doxepin 48.9  Zoloft 24.3  Clonidine  01.10  Continuing micro taper on Doxepin.

11/16/16 Doxepin 48mg  Zoloft 24.3mg  Clonidine 1.30mg

5/4/17  Doxepin 45mg  Zoloft 24mg  Clonidine 1.20mg   Micro taper of Doxepin  , Clonidine

01/13/19  Doxepin 45mg   Zoloft 21mg   Will start Micro taper of Doxepin 2/19

12/21/21  Doxepin 20 mg ?  Reducing using water micro taper--Pulling 24ml from 75ml

12/2121   Zoloft .060 grams by weight--HOLDING (info from post added by CC: On 12/21/21 my dosage was .060grams by weight or 20mg. )

26 Apr 2022 - Zoloft at -0-

 

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This last article from Dr. Shipko is much better, and more comprehensive than the earlier one.

 

We get so many questions about Dr. Shipko, I will pin this for the time being.

This is not medical advice. Discuss any decisions about your medical care with a knowledgeable medical practitioner.

"It has become appallingly obvious that our technology has surpassed our humanity." -- Albert Einstein

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I just reread the article and I agree that it is a great improvement over his previous one.

 

Rhi, I thought I tapered pretty slowly with the exception of Wellbutrin which I cold turkeyed without any problems.    But I wonder if perhaps I should have waited longer between cuts, particularly for doxepin and remeron since they were sleep meds.    Looking back, I felt so bad that it seemed like there was no difference between holding and doing a small drop.

 

Still, I wonder if I would have had an easier time sleep wise.   But would have, could have, should have probably isn't the most productive thinking.

Drug cocktail 1995 - 2010
Started taper of Adderall, Wellbutrin XL, Remeron, and Doxepin in 2006
Finished taper on June 10, 2010

Temazepam on a PRN basis approximately twice a month - 2014 to 2016

Beginning in 2017 - Consumption increased to about two times per week

April 2017 - Increased to taking it full time for insomnia

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