☼ joy2730: withdrawing from citalopram, quetiapine

[Flowers]

Thanks AliG

 

I am going to read about self destructive behaviours that people undertake in an attempt to self sooth when I have read a bit more.

Now that will be interesting Joy.

 

Flowers xxx

[joy2730]

Today I have felt well but again a little down after lunch as if some of the buzz has gone - I guess this is a hood sign as my brain is changing. It's a peaceful feeling though. Obe or two nerve jabs in my right foot. I had a foot massage on the beach - the first of my life - I can recommend it for relaxation. So if you can persuade someone it can be part of your self care. Having had a really good holiday which I can only afford due to my work so I get a feeling of satisfaction from that. I have tried to eat healthily but still feel I have gained - I will have to be tough on myself when I get home. There is a definite change on my brain.

[joy2730]

Last night I felt really down not myself at all.  I am sure this is withdrawal.  I will give it much longer to resolve than I have done previously. Today is a struggle.   I have lost my bubbles.

I think my difficult childhood and first marriage and my 40 yrs of antidepressants minus only 6 months have taken their toll.  I may or may not be one who ultimately gets better or not.

I would love to be able to get off so I could feeI had some control but I lack confidence in the process. 

 

It's the same problem - I need to function.

[apace41]

3 minutes ago, joy2730 said:

I think my difficult childhood and first marriage and my 40 yrs of antidepressants minus only 6 months have taken their toll.  I may or may not be one who ultimately gets better or not.

I would love to be able to get off so I could feeI had some control but I lack confidence in the process. 

 

It's the same problem - I need to function.

Joy,

You've had a really good run but it's not shocking that you have had a little setback.  Here is where you need to try to come up with self-soothing techniques so that you don't let the fear factor push you immediately back to the 20mg of cit.  

The thoughts you are having -- ruminating thoughts about 40 years on A/Ds and your childhood and the like -- are simply that.  Thoughts.  Withdrawal attacks your "weakest link" when you are down.  It's easy to be positive in this process during the windows.  The challenge and the growth comes from being able to summon up that courage during the waves.

Immediately jumping to the notion that you may be one of the people who never gets off is a clear withdrawal sign as your brain fights to try to get you to give it more of the med.  You have been so positive and have felt so good about your progress that it would behoove you to try to find some workarounds to get you through this rough patch so that you can stay where you are with the gains (and losses of weight) that you have made.

Best,

Andy

[Flowers]

Hi Joy

Don't panic my friend. You are going to be fine, it's just a little setback. 

 

Has anything happened to trigger this? Sad that you are nearing the end of your holiday? Maybe drinking more alcohol?  Just let things settle down when you get home and see how you are then. 

It is probably a mini wave that you can get through and will be back to normal soon. I know it is awful when these feelings resurface after one has been doing so well. Just keep your dose the same and see what happens. Don't get despondent - you can do this!

 

Hugs from Flowers xxx

Edited June 9, 2017 by ChessieCat

[joy2730]

I am going to be honest I have had wine and beer on this holiday on a regular basis on this holiday.  I don't normally drink at all due to my work commitments.

 

I know alcohol is a depressant.  Because I am not busy with.my work I have had more time to think.  

 

I also know in withdrawal people shouldn't drink alcohol.

 

I am getting a lot b of negative thoughts but I have loved my holiday and proud that despite a very difficult life I am where I am.now. 

 

We plan to come back here a year as now all being well. 

 

I am.not running back to my 20 mg but on the end I might have to.  I need to find out for myself where I am with all this.

[TikkiTikki]

Hang in there, Joy. It is so awful when the bleak feelings come back, but I agree with Flowers. Stay where you are at 18mg and wait it out. You can always increase in a few more weeks if things don't get better. You've done such amazing job so far.

[joy2730]

Yes, the bleak feelings are certainly back, like a total lack of pleasure in anything now (anhedonia) and don't feel like talking or communicating.  I will have to watch this as I am meeting someone next Monday re starting my own little business and need to be on the ball.  I am sure it is just withdrawal though, I am going to give it a while before returning to 20 mg.

 

However, I was once in hospital for a long time for anhedonia, I actually stopped eating and drinking at one point, and I remember being very ill and suffering a lot.  I remember a whole Christmas passed and I ate 2 Brussels sprouts that Christmas.  I had been withdrawn for all antidepressants at that time by the hospital psychiatrist, and didn't do well until they were reinstated.  That was with the old dothiepin and I struggled with side effects hugely.  My family really suffered when I was that ill.

 

I haven't told them about this recent mood change, but I suspect they have noticed it.

 

The good news is that my husband, daughter, son-in-law and Esme are all well, and my son is being a bit better with me - my previous depressions seem to have ruined my relationship with him, but even he has been a bit better with me of late.  This is also something I have to watch carefully, I can't put my family through that sort of trouble again.

 

I voted in Britain last night at 9.55 pm, just made it back from Tenerife, and my GP was voting as well, it is such a small community where we have our farm, I so wanted to discuss my plight with her, but obviously couldn't.  I may or may not make an appointment to see her when I am next home, but it could lead to more and different meds so that may well be a bad idea.  I think GPs change meds at junctures like this as it makes them feel they are doing something.

 

If this anhedonia is short term I can handle it, any length of time and it could destroy me completely.  I also think there is depersonalisation mixed in with it too.  I had never really understood this concept before, but since reading more about it, I feel I have this too.

 

The good news is that physically my withdrawal symptoms have been minimal, my early morning running nose has stopped completely, and have no real other symptoms, and my appetite and body have felt better, but this mental change is grotesque.

 

I was abroad on holiday with my family and totally away from my normal routines and reading a book called 'Listening to Prozac' which may have made me too introspective. 

 

This book is not as pro Prozac as I thought.  On holiday I felt my belongings were in 3 different places, at home, at my live-in work and in the holiday apartment and it seemed to make me feel a little insecure.

 

When I was on holiday I was perchance given a in prompt example of how powerful the human mind is - an ex soldier was on our transfer coach to the hotel and he was using a wheelchair and having muscle spasms in his legs that made boarding and unboarding the transfer coach very difficult for him.  I offered to help and he and his wife were pleased and we managed to get him on the coach but with much difficulty.  I assumed he had MS or MD or something similar.  On the return home he was a lot better and didn't really need any extra help but I said I would help if need be.  He and his wife struck up a conversation with me when he got to the airport.  He explained the doctors could find nothing wrong with him physically at all, he had PTSD and was on mirtazapine and seeing a psychiatrist, who felt it would eventually resolve.

 

I will keep posting as I have noticed on this board that at crisis points people stop posting and it doesn't provide a clear picture.  I have often read posts that have suddenly stopped and I have wondered what happened next.

 

However, I respect the fact this board is for those withdrawing from antidepressants and not those continuing.

 

Joy  I remember this quote from my adolescence 'Nothing in life is to be feared, it is only to be understood'.  I think there is a lot of unnecessary fear surrounding the use of ADs and withdrawing from them.

[Flowers]

Hi Joy

 

So sorry your holiday had to end on this note. I have had anhedonia  lately too but have always described it as being depressed. 

 

I know feeling like this will have brought back many bad memories of how you have suffered in the past. If you can try to think of the here and now and not how it was then. Try to focus on this just being a little blip and if things get too unbearable then there are solutions to help you get through it. 

 

I always find the mental symptoms so much harder to deal with. If I am feeling OK mentally I can cope with the physical stuff but if not it is awful.

 

It may have been the alcohol, it may have been having too much time to think, stress of travelling - no one will know. Give yourself a few days getting back into your usual routine and see if you start to settle down again.

 

Keep posting to let us know how you are doing. 

 

Hugs from Flowers xxx 

 

 

 

 

[joy2730]

Hi Flowers

 

Thank you for your kind words.  I don't like mental symptoms at all, I know thoughts can't really hurt anyone, but they can if they lead to severe depression, which can result in all sorts of losses.

 

I guess I am frightened of withdrawal leading to disaster, but ultimately I still need to keep trying. 

 

It would please me if I could settle at just a bit less than 20 mg really.

 

Throughout my other withdrawal attempts I stayed mentally strong, so this is a change.  Of course it could be that underneath the citalopram I am actually depressed at the moment and the citalopram is in fact helping me.  I remember when I was taken off antidepressants in hospital, being told that taking someone off sometimes exposes a depressive episode which was in fact being treated.

 

I could do with talking this particular psychiatrist again, but he would encourage me to go back on the lithium and/or epilim (sodium valproate) to give me added stability, and they are so tiring I don't want to do that - they are too sedating for me to work effectively.  Seeing anyone about my withdrawal issues will inevitably lead to another prescription, and that is what I don't want.  Sometimes I think I should swap to Prozac and then try to taper Prozac, but that would involve a GP visit, and I would rather stay away.

 

If you stop antidepressants I know you tend to have the reaction of depression, stopping sleeping tablets gives insomnia, stopping tranquillisers give anxiety - it is the opposite effect all the time.  Therefore some depression is to be expected, but I don't feel myself at all.  When I withdrew from diazepam years ago now, I used to take the odd full dose to 'smooth things over' and that seemed to work, but modern advice is against that sort of thing.

 

Some things in life are easy to fix, but working out what is best for mental health is difficult.  It is the weight thing I would like to get to grips with, but I do know I have terrible eating habits and need to work on them too.  The food in our hotel was outstanding and we had paid for half board, so I was quite greedy, and ate out at lunch time.  But I was taking less citalopram and don't think I gained as much weight as I would have done had I been taking 30 mg.  I don't want to go back to 30 mg at all, as I felt a lot more comfortable at 20 mg.  If I could settle at 18 mg without feeling so depressed, I would settle at 18 mg long term.

 

There is another curious thing too, my face looks better on 20 mg citalopram, than 18 mg, it seems to alter the shape of my eyes.  We have 3 drop in carer visits a day for my live in work to assist with hoisting, this is a legal requirement in the UK, and one of these girls was on Prozac for severe OCD and got pregnant for the 2nd time.  She was a pretty girl, but overweight in all the areas that I am, bum, tum and thighs.  She withdrew from Prozac immediately and had no withdrawal symptoms but she looked so different, her face had changed so much I hardly recognised her, she actually said to me 'It is Ainsleigh, I know I look different and have lost weight'.  Then her OCD soared so much she was repainting the skirting boards in her house twice a week.  She couldn't wait to go back on Prozac and asked the hospital to have it ready for the delivery room.

 

I want to loose the weight and keep the same face and same mood - I am picky!

 

Flowers, how is your eye allergy, has it subsided?  Did you have to take any meds for it?  Are you out of the woods with your venlafaxine withdrawal yet, and stable again on your 30 mg citalopram?  I appreciate there is no reason for you to answer online, but I hope you are in a good place.  You had it a bit rough back there a few weeks ago, and sought advice that you needed to back track on a little and go back to the citalopram.

 

The struggle I have makes me a more compassionate person, I don't judge anyone for turning to street drugs, alcohol, cigarettes etc.  I guess most people using these substances are only self medicating really, (including comfort eating) - which I used to do but I don't do that anymore.

 

Well, I have vented my fears, I guess others have very similar fears.

 

Take care everyone.  I will keep posting, even if it to say I have caved in and gone up in dose.  I have to be honest.

 

PS I have felt this odd mental symptom previously, in London, going round Madame Tausauds, many years ago, I cant even remember what I was withdrawing from at the time, but it will have been dothiepin or citalopram, and I can remember just reinstating the original dose.  In those days people didn't write blogs like this, or even notes on paper - I used to go up and down in dose like nothing on earth, not knowing I could be harming myself.

[joy2730]

I have decided I have anhedonia/depersonalisation/derealisation and I am not impressed and was really struggling in the night.  To keep my work, embryonic business and family intact I  have taken 20 mg again, so back up 2 mg.  I am new to the concept of dp/dr although I have experienced it in the past now I know what it is, and it is very difficult to cope with.  I am sure this is a withdrawal symptom though.  I have learnt and am learning so much from this site and others. 

 

I spent a lot of time in the night reading about dp/dr and apparently the neurotransmitters by having gaps when rearranging can easily come up with this scenario.  That is probably the most unscientific version of it you have ever read.  It is frightening and horrible, much worse than feeling dizzy, sick, sweating etc.

 

I am not giving up on withdrawing from citalopram though.  I was thinking of seeing my GP when I am next home, but she is (I know from previous chats with her) a fan of paroxetine and may change my prescription to that, which I don't want to do.  So I may just stay away and keep quiet and work with what I have got.

 

As a test case with my husband a few weeks ago, I said to him I was feeling a little bit lower, but I wasn't that bad and he replied 'Don't go the Doctor's, they will only make you worse'.  I know he is right.

 

The horrible thing is that looking back I have felt this when withdrawing from many different antidepressants and always assumed it was just 'me' being 'mentally ill' whereas now I realise it was probably withdrawal in each and every case. 

 

Before I became a carer, by accident, 5 years ago, I was on a lot of different meds, but fortunately I got off the diazepam a few years previous.  I have got rid of lithium and sodium valproate since, 4 years ago, and 10 mg of citalopram, down from 30 to 20.  I am now a little stuck, but have improved my life, mental functioning and work prospects a lot.

 

My neurons are not really grasping their remaking to restore brain mood properly.

 

Out and about in the public I hear this all the time.  My husband, a Yorkshire Dales farmer, aged 65 now, comes back from auction markets where they buy and sell animals with tales of people's struggles with 'happy pills' as farmers call them, all the time.  Eg one young mum of 2 who had a rocky relationship, ended up on happy pills and now finds herself stuck on them, she cries and cries whenever she drops the dose.  She has gained loads of weight, she is now in a new relationship though, so that may help.

 

We are not alone with these problems, society is in it together.  Research needs to address ways out of this trap.  In my now extensive reading of this problem, individuals such as Altostrata from this site seem to be making the drug companies aware of this problem more and more.  We need an antidepressant that is not so difficult to come off, and that is more proven for safety before it is released for mass market use.

 

I have typed extensively in the hope that if anything I have typed helps share information it is worth it.  Knowledge is power.  These drugs really do have a dark side to them.  

[Flowers]

Hi Joy

 

So sorry things got really bad and you have had to updose. I hope you manage to stabilise quickly.

 

I have had mental and physical symptoms in WD and the mental symptoms like you have had always knock me for six and take all my resolve to get through.

 

Let us know how you are doing.

 

I will post an update on my thread in the next couple of days.

 

Thinking of you.

 

Flowers xxx

[joy2730]

Thank you Flowers.  I had to update because I wasn't well enough to stay at work, it was that or take mood stabilisers (which are really bad news) or go home sick, which I didn't want to do.

 

This is the honest update, because we are nothing if we are not honest.

 

I have now taken 3 x 20 mg doses, to try and stabilise a bit.  About 4 hrs after the first dose I had a pleasant warm feeling in my body, the same with the second and third dose, which was this morning, and the dreadful feelings of anhedonenia (sp?), depersonalisation and derealisation have all gone now.  Conclusion:  as they have gone so quickly it must have been withdrawal rather than my own mental health.

 

I will share this now that I am feeling better:  on the way home from Tenerife, I didn't really recognise my own family, and couldn't work out why baby Esme was with us, and who she belonged to - I felt very detached from reality.  When the duty free came round I couldn't see the point as I didn't feel as if I had any future, but my daughter dug me in the elbows and said 'Cheer up Mum, you always buy duty free, get something, don't be so mean' and so to cover up my misery I got La belle est vie, ck Eternity for my husband, and a face primer.  I couldn't really bring myself to talk to anyone either and so just buried myself in a book.  I would normally think, 'How lovely to get these luxury items', instead I felt nothing.

 

It is a concern that these feelings can be withdrawal only, this means withdrawal really does have the potential to be very serious.

 

Things are happening with my embryonic business and I literally need to be present in both mind and body, at this stage I can't let withdrawal get too bad.  I can't really get home to see my own GP, I can see my client's GP (there is a reciprocal agreement in place) but there is no real need now.

 

So this post is good news for me, I have rescued myself, but it highlights a withdrawal problem in that I really did think withdrawal was a physical thing with depression and anxiety, I didn't realise it could make me enter a different mental state entirely that wasn't depression or anxiety.  I feel I know depression and anxiety, but I am new to dp/dr.  Although looking back on my life I felt it when trying to withdraw from dothiepin, but not as bad as this.  I didn't realise it could be as bad and dramatic as that.

 

I will not be trying to reduce again until I have had a chance to discuss the risks with my GP or my old psychiatrist.  I am not disappointed in the outcome of updosing, I found those feelings totally abhorrent, much worse than I can describe.

 

I will look forward to your update Flowers.  On a general note I am now following Eleven10 on this site, and have posted on there, but I think she is too low to look at the board just now, but I will check later.  She has been struggling for a long time now and is trying to stick it out.

 

So, being quite a religious person, I am thanking God that I feel a bit better today.  It is far better for me to updose citalopram than take mood stabilisers, although mood stabilisers may have helped.  My holiday weight is coming off me, I have another pound to shed today.

 

A neighbour of mine has just died of cancer, and my husband and I will be going to his funeral on Monday together.  He was a great guy who has been taken too early in his life, he was really enjoying his retirement and he and his wife were a very loving couple.  His brother had a tough time on and off various antidepressants at one stage, people often do.

 

When I am next home and can read a PIL from my citalopram I am going to read it and see if it mentions that withdrawal can include altered mental states such as I have just experienced.  We need to start being more honest about risks and benefits of these drugs, but I am not cross or angry or sad, as I couldn't live like that, I am just relieved.

 

This site is so useful, I have learnt a lot, I have been ignorant of all the issues for too long.

 

I will read your update Flowers, as soon as you post, hope it is positive and you are doing well.  My daughter and baby Esme are visiting my place of work tomorrow, so I will look forward to see them.  She will bring any belongings from home I need such as Slimfast and hair dye!  I am pleased I haven't had to divulge to her or my husband my recent severe problem as they would worry and I don't want that.  My daughter is still fully breast feeding at 18 weeks and my husband is waiting to have his 2nd hip op assessed and is in considerable pain.  It is selfish of me to put my withdrawal issues on to them.  Having had this board to type on has been a way of off loading my fears, thoughts and solution.  Over the years my husband in particular has been sick of hearing about my struggle with my health and pills.  My daughter at 17 felt very depressed and even suicidal and went on to sertraline after struggling for 10 months to try to keep her job, she stayed on it for 2 years and successfully stopped taking it over 8 weeks using the alternative day method as advised by her GP.  The only withdrawal symptom she had was slight nausea but other than that managed fine.  So at 19 she stopped antidepressants, she is now 30 on this Saturday, 17 June, and has not been depressed since.  Hers was a simple case of antidepressants working for her well, and no trouble withdrawing.  My hairdresser in Leyburn, who is exactly the same age, took them for panic for a similar length of time, stopped them abruptly and felt very dizzy, went to her GP (who is also mine) who advised a slow taper over 4 weeks and then Cherry got off them with no trouble.  She never took a day off sick, but was angry that she had to visit the GP for advice, and hadn't been warned.  So some people can withdraw relatively easily, but they are both younger than me, much younger and I have taken mental health meds such a lot.

 

I know I have written a lot, but I think this is valuable feedback.  We need full disclosure of the successes and failures to try and make sense of what must be a public health problem now, and globally too.

 

Take care everyone.  Joy

[TikkiTikki]

Joy, thanks again for your honesty and generosity in sharing your story with everyone. 

That DP/DR must have been terrifying. I find the bleakness of depression and anxiety too much to bear, I can't imagine what it would be like to feel like you did.

And I'm so glad the symptoms resolved quickly on reinstating the 20mg. I think you did the right thing. 

Best of luck when you next feel ready to taper a little. And with your business, that's exciting.

xx

[joy2730]

I am posting this in case it helps anyone else - it is a shock to me, I didn't realise withdrawing could cause this, and that a return to a higher dose would stop it so easilyl

 

I am going to describe what I felt:  it came on slowly.  I slowly felt a peaceful slowing down in my brain, like a mild depression, but it wasn't particularly unpleasant.  I thought I was just tired and in a little bit of withdrawal, not much to worry about.  The next night I could no longer face walking around Tenerife that night with my family and made the excuse I was tired and was going to watch TV and read, and they went out without me.  They seemed to accept my excuse, but I couldn't read or watch TV, I just curled up foetal position and hoped a good rest in bed would put things right.

 

My family came back that night and my husband joked 'I thought you might be dead' (I have just remembered this now) and I replied 'Don't be silly, I was just tired', so he probably had realised that I was not myself.

 

Over the next 2 days I became a hollowed out person with no soul and it felt like only the primitive parts of my brain were working, to keep me breathing and walking and eating, but for nothing else.  I could not feel pleasure, could not see things properly, hear things properly or read any situation.  I had lost all emotional empathy skills.  I felt I didn't want to talk or communicate with anyone or anything, I wanted to disappear.

 

I felt completely unattached to the earth and my family, that I was a stranger in what had once been a familiar world, but was no longer familiar.  I felt unwelcome, superfluous and unnecessary in the world.  I would eat and drink, bathe and dress, swim without pleasure, just going through the motions.  I couldn't connect to anything.  But my brain was still working, I could remember my PIN for the duty free.  I was sleeping fine, but having nightmares.

 

It was on the plane back that I noticed how much I had deteriorated.  My voice was flat, subdued and strange to my ears.  My eyes didn't see things the same, baby Esme looked smaller, longer and thinner and when my daughter handed her to me on the plane I held her at a distance instead of cuddling her as I would normally as I couldn't relate to who she was or why she was with us.  This was only for a few seconds so that my daughter could change nursing position, so no one would have noticed, but I noticed the lack of connection.

 

We had a bit of a flight delay and so got to our Polling Booth at 9.50 pm - it was a general election day.  Several people were there I knew but I couldn't communicate or connect with them.

 

I think I have felt like this before when withdrawing from dothiepin when I was 21 and it soon progressed to auditory and visual hallucinations and paranoia - I was sectioned into an old fashioned mental hospital 50 miles from home.  In hospital I wouldn't eat or drink as I thought the authorities were trying to poison me and had to go on a drip  I always thought this was my mental illness, but now think it might have been withdrawal.  However, I am only surmising based on my recent experience.  It seems like I am getting more clues, but I can't be sure, and of course, I am self diagnosing which is not brilliant at all.

 

Anyway it is now 6 pm and I feel more or less back to normal - a very quick recovery which makes me think it was withdrawal rather than mental illness.

 

Key words to the way I felt:  isolated, remote, hollow, empty, pointless, altered senses, altered reality, gross case of 'I don't care', I will not live in the future, my life will end soon (but not suicidal), emotionally unempathetic, callous even, without love, respect and warmth.  No restlessness though or agitation.

 

[Flowers]

Hi Joy

 

So glad that you are feeling better.  You have been fortunate not to have suffered these WD symptoms so far. I am so familiar with the way you describe how you felt the last few days as have had  these symptoms myself during WD.

 

They are not there all the time and my symptoms sometimes change on a daily basis! I do understand how frightening it is to feel like this. It bewilders me that for myself I can feel like this one day and wake up the next feeling almost normal mentally but with various physical symptoms showing up.

 

Hope things continue to stabilise for you.

 

Flowers xxx 

[joy2730]

I had absolutely no idea withdrawal could do this to someone, you are right, I have been lucky so far to have escaped them.  I am feeling much better now and a lot wiser.  I thought it would all be much easier than this.  Feeling fine tonight.

 

[joy2730]

I don't understand this at all, I am completely back to 'normal' now, so quickly, but feeling a little more drugged, which of course I am.  This means that these drugs really are very powerful, or I am having powerful psychological reactions to trying to reduce and then reinstate.  Some people have trouble reinstating.  I have a previous diagnosis of bipolar and am wondering if there is a link with that.  Most strange.  But I never thought I had bipolar, just severe depression.

[joy2730]

I am going to be honest I have had wine and beer on this holiday on a regular basis on this holiday.  I don't normally drink at all due to my work commitments.

 

I know alcohol is a depressant.  Because I am not busy with.my work I have had more time to think.  

 

I also know in withdrawal people shouldn't drink alcohol.

 

I am getting a lot b of negative thoughts but I have loved my holiday and proud that despite a very difficult life I am where I am.now. 

 

We plan to come back here a year as now all being well. 

 

I am.not running back to my 20 mg but on the end I might have to.  I need to find out for myself where I am with all this.

[joy2730]

Good morning everyone:

 

I seem to have lost the last few posts I made on here, so I will have to be more careful at saving them somehow, so a quick update, I am now back on 20 mg and don't like the slowed feeling.  My GP has suggested a Prozac bridge, what does everyone think?

 

Joy

[Flowers]

Hi Joy

 

I am afraid I know nothing about this so can't advise or give any experiences of it.  Why does your Dr suggest doing this? Is Prozac easier to taper off?

 

I expect the Mods will be able to give you good advice regarding this.

 

Flowers xxx

[joy2730]

The theory is that citalopram has quite a short half life and so leave the body quickly, Prozac has a much longer half life and leaves the body more slowly, so it is not as traumatic as the body and mind has more time to adjust to the dose lowering.  In principle it sounds good.  The 2 drugs are overlapped for a while, then the citalopram is taken away, leaving the Prozac for a while, and then that is tapered.

 

It sounds simple, I am sure it isn't, but I have heard of some having success with it.

 

Joy

[apace41]

Here you go, Joy.

 

Plenty of information on the subject:

 

As you suggest, it is not as simple as it sounds.  It works for some but not for all.  The transition can be a challenge.

 

Best,

 

Andy

[TikkiTikki]

Hi Joy,

 

Snostorm recently bridged to Proazac from a low dose of Paxil - it was largely successful, though not without issues. You could check that thread and ask him/her.

Isn't it amazing that the difference between 20mg and 18mg can be so vast. 

Best wishes

 

[joy2730]

Thank you TikkiTikki  I will follow that up.  Yes, it is amazing the difference between 20 mg and 18 mg.  I very soon felt well on 20 mg but within a few days felt very tired and sluggish again, too tired and too apathetic so for the past two days I have gone back to 19 mg citalopram.  I know I am dodging around quite a bit but I feel comfy on 19 mg, I think it is better for me than the 20 mg.  I felt wiped out by the 20 mg, I suppose by withdrawing a little I have lost some of my tolerance to it.

 

Last night I listened to one of the new podcasts on my mobile phone before going to sleep and it was such a comfort to me.  A woman had been struggling for years to get off Seroxat, using every technique imaginable and eventually followed advice from SA and something called the Committee for Involuntary Tranquilliser Addiction (I think but I haven't googled it yet) and they suggested that twice a week she take a slightly higher dose.  I used that method when I withdrew from diazepam.  I may try that too.  She still hasn't got off yet, down to 7.5 mg and micro taping beyond microtaping.  She got her first prescription for what was perhaps a minor depressin, whereas at least mine was for severe illness.  She struggling with Prozac bridge, micro withdrawal over 5 months, cold turkey she tried out of desperation and lasted 4 months without going back on.  It was great to hear her voice and that of the interviewer, hearing a voice made it more real.  By the time I had finished reading it I felt more sure in myself that going to 19 mg was the right move for me.

 

She described a 'synthetic dead' feeling which is how I felt just before I started back on 20 mg.  She also said she thought she would die an old lady still trying to get off - that is exactly how I feel.  She had handed her notice in at one job as a social worker as she just felt it was all too much - that is what I dread.

 

When I get chance I am going to listen to more of the podcasts.  I am going to read all about a Prozac bridge. 

 

Thank you so much to whoever decided to put these Podcasts together.

 

I have gone back to my fitness classes after 2 weeks away, this morning was just a stretching class, but I really felt the benefits.  I know exercising is not for everyone, but it really helps me.

 

I feel so much better on 19 mg that 20 mg.  What a difference just 1 mg makes.

 

When I get the hang of this new site, I will update my signature.

 

Flowers, hope you are well, I am settled on 19 mg now, and will have another go after a while at reducing to 18 mg.  I hope you are still feeling settled and stable.  I just felt a little too drugged on 20 mg.  It is a heatwave in Britain today, so please take care in Spain, apparently the heat is going to be terrible with you.  I am back home now, and have just visited the gorgeous Esme, she is the light of my life, just what I needed at this stage of my life.  The trap I feel with antidepressants is eased by having Esme in my life, she will love me whether I am on 20 mg or none, or whatever.  My own son has wanted me off them for a long time, perhaps he senses they are not that good sometimes, but it has caused ill feeling between us.

 

Sorry everyone for rabbitting on some much, but it seems to help me get a perspective on things, and it is useful to note I think I have lost some of my tolerance for 20 mg.

 

We all have a lot to learn but the more we share experiences the better chance we have.  How I wish the internet had existed when I withdrew from other drugs over the years, it would have really helped.  When I withdrew from diazepam all I had was a leaflet from 'Release' it was about 8 pages of A5 long and very basic.  I am going to try to remember what I did, but I definitely did the higher dose now and then to smooth things over.  Very interesting, that, thanks Podcast.

 

Love to all, especially TikkiTikki and Flowers.  Joy

[joy2730]

It was Episode 25 of Let's Talk Withdrawal podcasts.  It really struck a cord with me.

 

Joy

[joy2730]

Doing well today on 19 mg citalopram.  Glad I dropped. Listened to another Podcast last night from a dutch doctor who had personal experience of taking and withdrawing from venlafaxine and then started again 3 months later at a half dose.  He is wanting to introduce tapering strip kits to make tapering easier, and is petitioning Jeremy Hunt to put pressure on the manufacturers of ADs to provide these tapering kits.  Perhaps they will be the same really as making liquid only more convenient, but I can't see how you would get the very small drops with them?

 

Thinking about taking only 18 mg again tomorrow.  I know I am darting around but it is just the way I feel.  Did gym, swim and sauna again today and felt much better for it.

[Flowers]

Very interesting stuff Joy. I've read about these tapering strip kits before but can't remember where or when. Maybe it was in the UK newspapers.

 

It's good that you feel well again. Changing the dose seems to affect you much quicker than me. I don't get any reactions for at least a week.

 

Take care and keep feeling well.

 

 

Flowers xxx

[joy2730]

Thank you Flowers for your observation about me feeling changes in dose very quickly, which I do, both up and down.  I was like this when I withdrew from dothiepin as well.  It is interesting because it is a feature of manic depression (now known as bipolar disorder) and I was diagnosed with that for a long time and did well with the meds for that.  Diagnoses in mental health are always difficult and I am not sure it is always helpful to put a label on someone.

 

However, I have never particularly disputed the diagnoses - it seemed to make sense at the time, it is just that I am well enough to manage without the mood stabilisers at present.

 

So I suppose I am trying to withdraw while having a background of difficulties.

 

Good day today, weight 13 st 8 llbs, the least I have weighted for many years now, and have dropped back to 18 mg.

 

I really welcome your observation Flowers, and that of anyone else, it is interesting that you take longer to feel the difference.

 

This site is great for peer support and sharing of information and ideas.

 

Hope everyone is the best they can be today, my Grandad used to say 'where there is life there is hope', so if you are having a very bad day, there is hope.

 

Joy

[scallywag]

4 hours ago, joy2730 said:

...Good day today, weight 13 st 8 llbs, the least I have weighted for many years now, and have dropped back to 18 mg. ...

 

Your signature:

Quote

9/6/17  Back to 20 mg, 15/6/17 Reduced to 19 mg

 

Are you saying that you reduced to 19 mg 4 days ago (June 15)  and have made another 1 mg reduction today? 

 

What do you think about keeping things steady for 3-4 weeks?

3KIS: Keep it slow. Keep it simple. Keep it stable.

[joy2730]

My trouble is I lept back to 20 mg from 18 mg and after a few days felt it was too strong so reduced to 19 and then this morning down to 18 to bring me back where I was except before I was having 18 minus a drop.

 

I take your point.  I am just all over the place but feeling well.  Thanks for your concern - I shall think carefully.

[bubble]

When I have more time I'll have to remind you of some basics of tapering.

 

This may seem harsh but for somebody who has been on this board since 2014 your understanding of key concepts and everything this process entails seems rather weak.

 

I'm concerned that your brain will at one point refuse to participate in this ping pong... I begin to think that this 20 mg is as you say psychological thing.

 

I wouldn't advise you to taper until you have practiced coping skills that would enable you to cope with the kind of state you described.

 

You will forgive me my lack of sugar coating this but I'm afraid you will continue to be unsuccessful in your tapering efforts until you experience that you can survive your worst nightmare without resorting to the pill (going to the higher dose is just that).

 

Also, I don't see much point in trying to taper if you are not willing to sacriface not one working day to deal with withdrawal symptoms, that is put your health and wellbeing ahead of your productivity. (And we are really talking about very minor changes. You were not willing to take one day off if I remember it correctly. There was also that new business...). 

 

These are all legitimate choices but I'm afraid they don't go together with tapering. Before you resume tapering you should address your fear and panic over your severe depression as an illness that started all this. It may seem that deep down you believe you need this drug to cope with this 'illness' because you don't think you have addressed it in any other way.

 

I hope this wasn't too harsh but we don't often see such knee jerk reactions to symptoms and so many underlying unresolved issues which you are actually camouflaging by focusing on weight and fitness...

Edited June 19, 2017 by bubble

[joy2730]

Hi Bubble thank you for your most useful comment, I guess we are all different.  I will try to keep more on track and work on my underlying issues and not so much on my weight and fitness.  I will try to mend my ways and go back to basics.  Joy

 

[joy2730]

A quick update - I appear to be doing well back on 18 mg and have none of that dreadful anhedonia back at present, or DP/DR.

 

Perhaps I am over that particular blip, I hope so.  Joy

[Flowers]

Hi Joy

 

Good to hear things are settling down and you are back where you were. Hope things continue to go well for you.

 

xxxFlowers

[joy2730]

Hi everyone and Flowers

 

Just to say I feel very positive and well today.  Still doing well on my 18 mg citalopram.  Really hoping the unreal feelings I had on the last 2 days of my holiday were due to me drinking alcohol (I don't normally drink) and me having more time to think about things and becoming a bit introspective.

 

Had a minute amount of nausea this morning when cleaning my teeth, this is a standard w/d symptom of mine and this afternoon have a sense of 'being less blocked' in my brain today.  My forehead actually feels a bit tickly and as if it is draining something away?  None of this is unpleasant, and makes me feel I am getting somewhere.

 

I go home tomorrow and will see my granddaughter Esme, I can't wait.  My husband had a hip replacement operation 18 months ago, and was told this morning he urgently needs the other one replacing now.  I will take time off from my work to look after him.  This is a reminder to meet to keep as well as I can.  He has had a lot to do for me over the years, I need to keep well for him.

 

Take care everyone, I am not going to post so regularly as I think it makes me think about myself too much, but will do regular updates.

 

Just for the moment 18 mg feels good.

 

Joy