☼ joy2730: withdrawing from citalopram, quetiapine

[AliG]

Joy . I wouldn't bank on 5 HTP to solve your problems. I tried it at one point and thought it was the answer . Unfortunately like all the supplements - ultimately it let me down. That's not to say some aren't helpful. They can be within reason but I think there are few that are really helpful in the end. The supplements that we recommend are science and experience based. Magnesium and fish oil seem to help a lot of people. Beyond that it is uncertain . A whole food unprocessed diet seems to be key.

 

We know the usual medical model isn't working. We have to move on from that and take our health into our own hands and be our own health advocates.

 

The medical industry is rife with corruption and greed . We have to take our power back .

[Happy2Heal]

 

We know the usual medical model isn't working. We have to move on from that and take our health into our own hands and be our own health advocates.

 

The medical industry is rife with corruption and greed . We have to take our power back .

 

this is so true! do you mind if I quote you? you've said this so well- anytime I try to make these same points with someone, it gets to be a long rambling rant LOL

[joy2730]

Thank you for the advice.  I didn't take 5 htp last night and felt fine this morning.  I guess I am looking at how much money I have wasted.  I do agree that the only way forward is to go natural and no rely on outside substances.  I don't have any magnesium or fish oils and have tried magnesium before but didn't feel any benefit.  I will buy some fish oil when I am next shopping.

 

Thanks for isolating magnesium and fish oil - some people seem to be trying all sorts of supplements that I have never heard of.

 

Anyway I am doing well on my current dose.  I have been momentarily tempted to try going a bit faster now, but I know from my experience that, for me, that is the route to WD symptoms.

 

I really do believe that the exercise is helping me as well as the super slow taper.  The exercise seems to be making me feel more positive about the whole of my life.  Mind you it is making me hungry which is not good for my weight.  However, previously when I have got down to 14 mg citalopram my weight has started to shift a little.

 

I do feel citalopram increases my appetite and that increases my weight, it seems to make me more interested in food in general.  I look at people in my fitness classes and want to ask everyone who is overweight if they are on antidepressants, but of course, I never would. 

 

I think citalopram increases weight and appetite more than the old tricyclic I used to take, dothiepin, but not as much as mirtazapine which was a nightmare for me with appetite and food.  I remember being desperately hungry with mirtazapine to the extent that I couldn't wait for food at all and hoped that each extra bit of food would stop me feeling hungry but it never did, I just carried on feeling hungry.  I stopped it after 3 weeks when the problem became obvious.

 

I am sleeping so well it is unbelievable, which again I put down to the exercise I am doing.  I have always loathed exercise but now can see its benefits.  I am actually going to start doing gentle exercises away from my formal classes on a daily basis.  Exercise for me is time consuming, boring and expensive, but I am beginning to think it is key.

 

So my current goal is to get down to about 14 mg citalopram with the minimum of symptoms. 

 

I have even started to lift the odd weight at the gym, and even that seems to be helping.  This is all a surprise to me, I am 58 year old grandmother with a late career in health and social care, I do not fit the category of a gym goer but that is what I am becoming.  I do so want to accelerate down the dosages but know that I can't - is this the definition of frustration?

[joy2730]

I am doing well on 19 mg minus a drop.  Just had a right hand side of the head headache and sore neck on the right today but it was quite bearable.  In fact, a good sign that my body is registering the drop.

 

Colours are looking brighter and sharper today, less blurry.  Even if I never get any further, 19 mg is far better than 20 mg.  I am sleeping well and feeling well, cant wait to exercise again tomorrow.

 

I have been watching some Youtube videos from a Dr Brogan, a psychiatrist who is speaking out against antidepressants being used so widely and easily, has anyone else seen them?  She also talks of changing diet, exercise and the gut/brain connections and speaks against the pharmacy companies and GPs prescription practices. 

 

She is hoping we can all have informed consent before taking meds - that would be good.

 

I came across a young girl today, early 20s, who has been having family/employment/financial worries and went off sick with depression/anxiety and her GP gave her a prescription for Prozac straight away, but she stopped it as it was causing her headaches.

 

Sometimes WD symptoms can be similar to start-up symptoms perhaps?  I can't help but think she had a lucky escape.  It is particularly sad that she hasn't had children yet, so had she become dependent on Prozac that could have been a problem in pregnancy.  Oh dear.

[joy2730]

I am doing really well but last.night I had a sudden jolt of unexpected joint pain and assumed it was arthritis but this morning have decided it was probably withdrawal as I don't have any physical health problems at all.

 

Not reducing again for ages but this is a new symptom for me - never had this on my previous attempts.

[Flowers]

Hi Joy

 

Thanks for posting on my thread. Good to speak to you again! Thanks for the advice.

 

I have had all sorts of joint pain during WD and have never been able to put it down to anything but that as I don't have arthritis or anything. 

 

So glad you are doing well all things considered.

 

 

Flowers xxx

[joy2730]

Hi   I am doing well on my current dose.  Went spinning, sauna and swimming at 7.15 am this morning, I am so convinced this is helping me. 

 

However, I have noticed for the last few days that I have been gaining a little weight, not much, but I am eating very little so it is all out of proportion, so I think I am having a little paradoxical weight gain at present, hopefully it won't last too long.

 

I want to report something else as well which I have read about on this site before.  I hope it doesn't offend anyone.  I am reporting it because I really do feel it is an example of how the meds do have a deep hold of my body and brain.

 

I had a few bits of genital arousal this morning, I am female, 58 and in a married relationship with some sex but not a lot.  I have never had random bits of arousal before,  it was neither pleasant nor unpleasant, laughable really that this could happen.  I am hoping that this is another waxing and waning symptom.

 

Years ago when I was heavily medicated I could never have got out of bed for 7.15 am let alone get to a leisure centre.  My life is so much better even if I am stuck on 19 mg citalopram and with a grotty weight problem.

 

I wonder when I am getting symptoms, although quite OK, at 19 mg, it means that ultimately, like my GP has said, I may only get down to 10 mg.  I guess that is for the future, I am not going to look ahead too far.

 

I am going to see my grandchild this afternoon, I am so glad I have lived to see her, and it has been touch and go at various points.  I am dreaming a lot more now, this is a bonus, last night I dreamt of my grandchild.  I think dreaming more is a withdrawal symptom?

[Flowers]

Hi Joy

 

I am so glad you have been brave enough to mention this! Were you exercising at the time? The reason I ask is that I had this a few years back when I was on Cit but not tapering. It was always when I was in the gym doing a step class so that had nothing to do with WD.

 

I had it again recently when I was at my worst after weaning off Cit and starting Ven. I put this down to PGAD which is a WD symptom and there is info on here regarding it. I hadn't been exercising so knew it was WD. Once I got a bit better the symptoms disappeared thank God. I did get quite distressed about it as it can be very uncomfortable for some.

 

I am delighted you are doing so well at the gym. Don't worry about the weight - sometimes our bodies don't show a weight loss no matter how good we have been and then you get a bigger loss later on.

 

I think you are doing well and just take each day as it comes. You have your lovely grandchild to enjoy so need to stay fit and healthy!

 

I have always dreamed but notice that my dreams are much more vivid when WD symptoms are bad.  

 

Just keep an eye on these different things that are happening. 

 

Flowers xxx

[joy2730]

Yes, Flowers, it was when exercising, at a spinning class.  Good to know others have had this happen to them.  It seems to suggest these really are drugs that get everywhere in the body.  Anyway, I have had no more genital arousal symptoms.

 

Went to a local bistro type place this afternoon with my daughter, my granddaughter and a mutual friend.  I had a glass of wine and that was very pleasant - I was mindful that alcohol can upset too.

 

Also Flowers when I came off venlafaxine I remember feeling incredibly empty inside as well as depressed.  At least the citalopram will be cushioning the worst of it, but it will not cover all of it as venlafaxine and citalopram are 2 different drugs.  Venlafaxine targets many different systems in the brain whereas citalopram doesn't target as many, so I can see how you will have some withdrawal symptoms from the noradrenaline system and the dopamine system, which will not be covered by the citalopram.

 

But the human body constantly strives to reach a static level so it will try to work its way back.  Dopamine used to be considered the pleasure system and a lack of it would cause a lack of pleasure in life.  I think the emptiness I used to feel was a lack of pleasure.

 

Venlafaxine used to cause me to have shock like 'heart attacks' in the night, when it was not like a panic attack, but like a sudden jolt when my whole body would leap off the bed.  My husband would say 'that drug will kill you, if you are not careful'.

 

Venlafaxine is a strong antidepressant, when I was put on it the GP said it was the domestos of antidepressants, in that it would kill all known depressions.  Well, I am not sure that is true, but I do think it is a lot stronger than citalopram.

 

My knowledge of these drugs is now outdated, so a moderator may wish to alter this post.

[Flowers]

Hi Joy

 

Glad you had a nice time out and were able to enjoy a glass of wine.  

 

Good to hear that your 'experience' happened while spinning.  I am not sure if this could be a side effect of the drug as I wasn't tapering when it happened to me and was feeling quite well.

 

I am feeling flat,  sad and nauseous. You are right I am not getting much pleasure out of anything really. It's my birthday next week and quite a few people are coming over from UK to celebrate with me. I think I am going to be a bit of a party pooper at the moment! Maybe it will do me good to see some old friends.

 

Again thank you for your info on Ven and the difference between that and Cit.  This feels bad but not as bad as when I was on both of them together! So there is some progress.

 

 

Keep well.

 

xxxx Flowers

[joy2730]

Hi Flowers, it is a long time since I exercised so much, so my 'experience' was probably a side effect of exercising and not a withdrawal symptom.

 

I suppose once anyone starts withdrawing anything new gets blamed as a withdrawal symptom.

 

The good news is that I am doing well on this 19 mg minus an extra drop.  I feel well, happy, alert, satisfied with life and in a good place.  It has been worth every grotty year of my life so far to have this level of wellness.

 

I wish taking and withdrawing from antidepressants wasn't so 'trial and error', and long drawn out, as people can waste weeks/months and years of their lives struggling with these issues.

 

I don't think society will get rid of depression and anxiety, but we need better treatments.  I suppose this will happen in the future, in the meantime we are where we are and have to make the best of it. 

 

Once thing is for sure though, there are lots of people world wide struggling with these things and that is a comfort.

[AliG]

 

H2H. No worries. Quote away.

 

Joy. It's great that you are getting in this amount of exercise. When you can handle it - there is only good that can come out of it . I have found it so difficult in WD but I'm gradually becoming more exercise tolerant with time.

 

You're right . It is trial and error and can take years but once we are through this it's done. There is no going back to being ignorant of the facts .

 

Edited March 30, 2022 by ChessieCat
changed member name

[joy2730]

I am really well still, 19 mg minus 4 drops as I was a little careless measuring out, but I feel I will be OK.

 

Still concentrating on personal health, I have severe constipation now.  This is one of the symptoms my GP confirmed to be caused by withdrawal when I went to see him in a total meltdown physically but not mentally.  I told him I was having to take at least double dosage of laxatives and he was not at all surprised.  He told me that serotonin is really active in the gut and withdrawing increases gut immobility.

 

I know what to do about constipation and at least it is a sign my body is acknowledging less citalopram in it.

 

The sexual experience has subsided, BUT everything in that department does feel MORE SENSITIVE at the moment.  I know I am not the only one.  I remember reading a post a while ago from a lady who had similar feelings while queuing at Sainsbury's checkout and she laughed it off to herself.

 

So as we can all see I am PERSONAL AREA obsessed at present, but at least my mind/mood/sleep is intact.  If those 3 thingsare OK then I can deal with almost anything else, except perhaps throwing up all the time which I find very difficult.

[Frogie]

Hi joy2730:

 

I was reading your thread and signature.

 

I saw where doing one drop on oral syringe reduction.

 

So do you measure out, let's say 7.9(that's what I'm on right now) with Lexapro, then take off 1 drop everyday?

 

Does it work? I have had such awful nausea every time I reduce my dose, I end up going back up.

 

Thanks for your help.

 

Hope you're doing well.

 

Take care,

Frogie xx

[joy2730]

Hi  Frogie

 

Dropping drops seems to help for me, as I have become very sensitised to citalopram, through repeatedly failing at withdrawing and going too fast, also I think I am one of the poor metabolisers of SSRIs.

 

Of course it means it will take forever to get to lower dosages, but withdrawal is not my goal now, only lower dosages.  It is also not that accurate, but it is a way of stealing a little citalopram from my brain without too many symptoms.

 

It seems to be about 14 mg that I get into trouble with withdrawal symptoms, that and going too fast.

 

Anything is worth a go?

 

Joy  take care

[Flowers]

Joy just wanted to stop by and say thank you for your constant support.

 

I am not sure where I am going with all this yet but have taken all your good advices onboard. 

 

I didn't know constipation was a WD symptom. It's weird isn't it that I have got diarrhea and you the opposite!

 

We just can't win can we?!!!

 

It might be why you didn't show such a good weight loss as you were expecting recently.

 

Flowers xxx

[joy2730]

Exactly Flowers,  weighed myself this morning, and things are looking a bit better weight wise.  I am almost convinced that for me there is a paradoxical weight gain.

 

I guess with the stomach some people will get diarrhoea and others constipation, but it may in fact be generated by a similar mechanism?  All I know is I am taking laxatives at above recommended dosages to try to keep things remotely OK but they are not really touching it.

 

My GP said it was OK to take in higher dosages for this reason, about 2 years ago now.

 

Today I continue to feel well, apart from constipation, so am sticking at 19 mg minus 4 drops now for a while.

 

I agree with Andy's comments about not worrying about the benzo, I took diazepam the whole time I was on venlafaxine - I too couldn't stop shaking with it, I shook so badly with it in hospital they used to wheel me around in a wheelchair so I didn't wobble and shake all through the corridors.  They kept thinking the shaking would stop but it didn't.

 

I didn't know at the time that ven could cause shaking, I just thought my nerves were getting worse.

 

When in hospital I didn't get the patient information leaflet and had no access to the internet and we were advised not to discuss health/meds with other patients.  It was a long time ago, it will have changed now.  It was lonely, at least now we have access to information and can share thoughts.

 

The good thing for you Flowers is that the citalopram will be gaining a firmer foot hold as each day passes which gives you a good solid base.

[Flowers]

Hi Joy.

 

 Constipation is horrible and can make you feel so uncomfortable. I am not too keen on the diarrhea but I can handle it. It's the nausea that I hate!

 

I have never shaken so much while on Ven although it did ease off a bit when I was reducing the dose and those good few weeks it wasn't too bad. I have a love/hate relationship with the benzo. I hate the fact I have to take yet another drug but love it's calming effect on the tremors that never ease unless I take it.

 

There will be a lot of sorting out along the line but for now I am just trying to get a base. My husband had an accident and has a huge rupture of the rotator cuff in his shoulder. He can't use his right arm and is right handed. He needs fairly urgent surgery to fix it and we are just waiting for the date. He will have to have 6 weeks immobilised in a sling and then 6 weeks physio and gentle exercise. I so want to be well to look after him post surgery. We have no family here so are pretty much on our own.

 

Flowers xxx

[joy2730]

How awful for you both - and on top of everything else.

 

You are so right Flowers, you need to be stable enough to put his care first in the near future.  That is a really good goal. 

 

Withdrawal and trouble with pills does not happen in isolation, 'normal' life still carries on with all its trials and tribulations.

 

Oh dear!

 

I suppose you could try eating plenty of bread to stem the diarrhoea a little, that does it for a lot of people!

[Flowers]

Yes, we are in a bit of a mess here to put it bluntly!

 

I am eating bland food. Can manage a sandwich so that is good. Rice cakes and crackers. If I do get hungry I dive into something straight away to make the most of the opportunity!

[joy2730]

Continuing to feel well today on 19 mg citalopram minus 4 drops.  Still taking loads of laxatives to ease that situation though.  Weight is showing a little better.  It will be interesting to see, if when I drop a little more, the weight creeps back on again a little.  For now, I seem to  have it more under control.

[joy2730]

Today mood and sleep are very stable.

 

Aching jaw, feeling hot and weak, no nausea, slight headache, but all doable.  All 'normal' withdrawal, and a slightly runny nose.  Constipation is persisting, have used Andrew's liver salts this AM - contains magnesium?  Is that the same magnesium people use as a supplement.

 

All fine, but I will not be reducing any more for a long time now.

[Flowers]

Hi Joy

 

Glad you are able to cope with the symptoms you are experiencing. I think Liver Salts contain the magnesium that people use as a supplement in WD. 

 

I tried taking it but it upset my stomach big time so had to stop - maybe it will work for you. I really hope so.

 

Just seen dolphins in our bay as it is flat calm - what a lovely way to start the day.

 

Flowers xxx

[scallywag]

joy -- Glad you're feeling ok and that you've got a plan for the next few weeks.  The "liver salts" contain a form of magnesium (magnesium sulphate) that when consumed by mouth acts as a laxative. So it is a form of magnesium but the intent of taking it is different than why we suggest careful supplementation with magnesium citrate or glycinate.

[scallywag]

Thanks Joy. ..

 

There was an article in the Guardian UK yesterday that a friend sent me. I posted it on the media site here. It is about us poor people being stuck on long term AD's.

Very interesting read and good that this is being highlighted in the news again. ...

 

Hi Flowers

 

I am having a look around for your article, I don't really understand this site properly, but I am interested in reading that.

 

x

Here's a link to the article Flowers posted.

[joy2730]

Hi everyone

 

This is my last post until Friday as I will be home for a few days, and won't have time to look on this site.  I will be exercising furiously and seeing family, shopping and all the normal stuff of life.

 

I will be shopping for laxatives!

 

I am very well today, aware of the very small amount of withdrawal symptoms, which today are feeling hot and constipated, not a good mix, but I don't have a headache today, and have no brain zaps.  so all is good. 

 

I can do withdrawal if it is like this, but am holding, holding, holding as I have learnt that lesson.

 

Overwhelming my mood and sleep is normal, and my appetite feels more normal too.  If I have to stay on citalopram for the rest of my earthly life, I would rather it was at 19 mg minus a few drops, than at 20 mg.  There is a significant difference already, I feel less dazed and less lethargic.

 

Joy

[Flowers]

Hi Joy

 

Enjoy your few days off. Glad things are going well today.

 

Flowers xxx

[joy2730]

I have to post this.  Today I accidently had only 18 mg citalopram due to my drop system being inaccurate and thought I would go with it.

 

This afternoon I did Pilates, a swim and then sauna.  At the end of the sauna I was so swept up in a severe withdrawal wave that I thought I would have to ask for help.  At reception, I cancelled my evening fitness class and the following mornings, and the receptionists expressed concern that I looked so ill.

 

However, I then quickly recovered, and resting at home now, I feel a lot better.  I actually told the leisure centre I was having trouble getting off an antidepressant, and just saying it 'set me free'. 

 

It was an intense feeling of weakness, dizziness and sickness, but soon passed.

[Flowers]

Hi Joy

 

Gosh that is amazing that you felt it so quickly.  I don't disbelieve you at all but looking for other reasons - could it have been a reaction to the exercise or sauna? Have you done all three before and felt ok?

 

I have felt like this with heat exhaustion through not drinking enough fluids! I have also felt like this in WD!

 

You have had WD symptoms before so will know the difference I am sure.

 

Hope you feel better soon.

 

Flowers xxx

[joy2730]

Hi Flowers

 

Today I am completely well, in fact feeling better than ever and only took 18 mg citalopram today.

 

Literally at 3.40 pm yesterday when I was finishing my sauna, very hot and having done Pilates and a swim I was so overcome with withdrawal that it took me all my time to get dressed, I only put my top and trousers on, no underwear and couldn't even tie my trainers.  I was totally incapacitated, but by the time I had sat in my car for a few minutes and filled up with water I felt a lot better, and I managed to get to my daughters OK and had no trouble then on.

 

I had messed up my AM meds only 7 hrs earlier.  It may or may not have been the drop in dosage I really don't know, or an accumulation of general reduction.  The exercise and sauna of course may have had an effect.

 

I am glad I told reception of my difficulties because I was reading 'Prozac backlash' last night, by Joseph McCullum, and he reported someone was swimming and had an electric shock brain zap and cramp at the same time while swimming and had to be life saved out of the pool!  Oh my God.

 

The only other symptom I had last night was while lying in bed reading Prozac backlash - I felt an enormous electric nerve shock down the whole of my leg leg, hip to toes, and it was very dramatic.  Normally I just feel a little tickle of nerves on the sole of my feet.  So something different was going on yesterday.

 

It is very interesting and important to document.

 

The strange thing is that today I feel so much better, more energy, clearer thinking, just so much better, even happier.

 

I cancelled my last night's exercise class and my spinning this morning as a precaution and felt that maybe I had been pushing myself too much, and went to bed just to rest last night.  As a precaution I told my husband of the event and he was very understanding.

 

I am back at work today feeling really good, it was a complete wave (it felt like a tsunami actually) followed by this window.  I have never had anything like this in my previous withdrawal attempts.   

 

I still haven't had any brain zaps like I have had previously.

 

I am taking things slowly today, as it was so sudden in coming on .  It probably had something to do with the exercise and sauna, especially the sauna.  I normally have a cold 'pllunge' after the sauna but I was so ill I thought the shock would be too much for me so I missed that out.

 

Flowers, how are you doing?  Hope you are managing. In Prozac backlast last night I was reading that venlafaxine is often found to be too stimulating and individuals have to take sedatives with it, also that it has a very short half life making it hard to withdraw from, so what you are experiencing re venlafaxine is pretty usual stuff I am afraid.

[joy2730]

I have done something interesting tonight, I  have started to read my posts from the very beginning of my time on this site - what a revelation, it has caused me to realise so much. 

 

It is so worth documenting everything, if only so you can look back and see where you went wrong.

 

Also I have ordered a 1p book from Amazon 'Talking back to Prozac' by Breggin, which may be just like Prozac backlash, but apparently goes into more detail about the original Prozac trials.  At 1p it will be great to have it on my very extensive bookshelf of psychiatric illness and drugs, and how to withdraw.

 

Feeling well tonight, I was so naïve when I first starting posting here!

[Flowers]

Hi Joy

 

Thanks for visiting my thread. I am glad that you are feeling better today after quite a day yesterday.

 

I am very tired tonight as a lot of friends have arrived from UK. None of them are staying with us as have their own places. They are all turning up here tomorrow afternoon with food  and are  doing a BBQ for me and my husband to cheer us up. There will be 16 of us. I hope I will be able to cope but they understand what is wrong with me so will be fine if I need to go for some quiet time on my bed!  I am so lucky to have kind friends like this and wish I could see more of them. I miss my visits back to UK so much sometimes.

 

I will post an update on my thread tomorrow morning if I get time. Things are not too bad but I need to record how things have been going this last week. 

 

Take care.

 

Flowers xxx

[Pepita]

I tried it for a while shortly after going into WD and it made things worse. But Inheard that it should not be taken in acute WD

[joy2730]

Hi Flowers

 

It is hard to cope with socialising when you are not feeling quite 100%, but it is so good that your friends are aware of your issues - that will take some of the worry away.

 

I have kept all my mental health problems over the years, and drug problems, secret apart from the closest of family, and that has made things worse for me. 

 

When I left the leisure centre so ill the other day I was so pleased I was able to confide in the two women receptionists that I was trying to take less antidepressant.  It was a liberating feeling and made me feel so much better.

 

I love reading your replies to my dilemmas Flowers, they are so insightful, and thank you for updating your posts recently, giving a clearer picture of where you are now.  It is helping so many.

 

Joy

[joy2730]

Update for today.

 

I am feeling well today, a very slight headache, but that is all.  Still taking only 18 mg citalopram and appearing to do fine. 

 

I am about to read more of my previous early posts to work out where I went wrong previously.

 

I would ordinarily rush for pain killers at a headache but not any more, I am going to use the headache as a monitoring tool.

 

I am about to update my signature which is so out of date.

 

Joy

[joy2730]

I have just read all of my posts through from start to finish today.

 

In summary:

 

My main withdrawal symptoms are sweating, nausea, headaches and insommia.

 

Life events and withdrawal symptoms make me leap back to 20 mg far too easily instead of sticking things out.

 

I never try to updose by just a little bit, I always go straight back up.

 

I make too many changes, randomly and too quickly.  I don't do slow and steady at all.

 

I lack confidence in my ability to live without citalopram and believe it can really help me with almost anything, which I know not to be true.

 

I don't like the fact withdrawal can make me look ill.

 

I seem to value my work too highly, my health should be my priority.

 

I have underlying concerns that withdrawal may happen to me in such a way that it cannot be stopped even by updosing fully and I will be left permanently in withdrawal and totally incapacitated.

 

I don't like the unknown.

 

I don't have any patience and tend to be impulsive, I don't think things through properly.

 

I try too hard and seem to refuse to take the easier, steadier route.

 

I shoot myself in my own foot too often.

 

I have spent 3 years getting from 30 mg to 18 mg, but have learnt a lot.

 

My change in work situation and first husband's suicide made me lack confidence in my ability to sit through my withdrawal symptoms and stay on plan, I felt I needed a prop.

 

I would recommend reading through your own story at varying points, it can be enlightening.

 

Take care everyone, especially Flowers

 

Joy