Cheeky: on Paxil for 23 years needing advice

[Cheeky]

I'm starting to believe, I will be on these drugs for life. I have been searching fir people who have been on these drugs as long as I have and come off it successfully and I haven't found one . I can't believe my life has gotten like this, I would do anything to be like I was 2 weeks ago. If I ever stabilize and get better then I will do a 1% tapper I'm just become too sensitive.

[ladybug]

I'm starting to believe, I will be on these drugs for life. I have been searching fir people who have been on these drugs as long as I have and come off it successfully and I haven't found one . I can't believe my life has gotten like this, I would do anything to be like I was 2 weeks ago. If I ever stabilize and get better then I will do a 1% tapper I'm just become too sensitive.

 

Brassmonkey has been on as long as you have and is almost off. I sometimes have the same worries so I get that. Many of us don't have the choice to stay on as we've pooped out, can't deal with the side effects, etc.

 

I'm just going to give my two cents on your situation: I don't think what you have been experiencing is directly related to your taper which was conservative and you were still on quite a hefty dose when you went into this wave. However, you quit smoking CT after 20 years. That's a pretty big deal and would be very difficult for someone not tapering psych medications. Also, you admitted you recently changed pill brands. Yes, you may have been able to change generics in the past. I was able to as well...until I couldn't. I went through a month of hell after changing generics and the board I was on then didn't think it could be the switch either. Thankfully, I finally listened to my gut and since my generic was no longer being made I went to brand name. I felt the difference within days and a couple of weeks later I was stable again. I've been on the brand name ever since even though I can barely afford it at 6 dollars a pill. It's worth it for my sanity. For years before that I used to change doses and brands like nothing, from immediate release to CR and back again. Not anymore. And believe me there are a ton of other people who have gone into full blown WD from changing their pill brand/type.

 

Honestly, it hurts me to see what you are doing to yourself because you are panicking. You've already gone all the way back up on your Paxil and now are considering quadrupling your dose of Seroquel. It doesn't have to go this way. Please at least try to go back to your old brand and see if that makes any difference. I'm very sorry for what you are going through but allowing your panic to get the best of you and desperately seeking out a drug or dose to get you stable again is a mistake so many others have made and wish they hadn't. You can get through this.

[nz11]

Great words of wisdom ladybug.

[Cheeky]

Wow ladybug your so right, I have panicked and I suppose gave in but I'm not going to give up on my tapering. Once I get stable and give my brain a break for 6 months then I'm going to start again, this time 2% tapper every 6 weeks. I'm feeling better today thank god and am really going to think how I can change things in my life. Do you think I should go back on the original Paxil or just stay with the one I'm on?

[ChessieCat]

Ladybug (last paragraph):  "Please at least try to go back to your old brand and see if that makes any difference."

[Cheeky]

Okay I will go to the chemist tomorrow.

[Cheeky]

Hey I'm feeling so tired today and still a little anxious, I've been on my 40mg of Paxil for 6

Days and have taken my 50mg of Seraquel the last two

Nights, I thought I would be feeling way better today. I think the 50mg of Seraquel is too much or

doI have to wait for my body to get use to it . Would my body be still going through a little bit of withdrawal even though I reinstated.

[JanCarol]

Cheeky - 

 

I'm sorry you are struggling, but - does it encourage you to tell you that - the things you are saying are not out of the ordinary for withdrawal?  Especially Paxil withdrawal?

 

I'm starting to believe, I will be on these drugs for life. I have been searching fir people who have been on these drugs as long as I have and come off it successfully and I haven't found one .

 

Cheeky, my first psych drug was circa 1988.  Prozac was brand new.  My first husband and I were severely depressed and quite eager to try it.  Okay, so I wasn't on them continuously - instead I did the brain basketball bounce.  On-off-on-off, and wondering why I was chronically depressed and crazy.  I don't know which is better or worse - the on-off bounce, or continuous use.

 

Anyhow, I'm off them now, at 54 years old.  I'm not great, but I'm soooooo much better off!  

 

I'm not the only one - there are many survivors of the 20-25-30 years of drugging gig.  Go to http://www.beyondmeds.com for some truly inspiring work.  I say work - because GiaK didn't just waltz off of the drugs, she had to work at it.  I had to work at it.  I still have to work at it.  Psych Drug Survivor University School of Hard Knocks.  But it's doable, it's possible.

 

So many of us have felt like we'd be on the drugs for life.  Until - in my case, I lost my health.  Then I had to get off, and I was terrified, what if I really needed them to keep from going totally bonkers, manic, out of control?  Guess what?  It didn't happen!  But I had to work at it.  It took time, and patience, and diligence, and very careful planning and lots and lots (and lots!) of non-drug skills to replace the drugs.

 

I agree with Ladybug and Chessie that change in brand may have made a difference in your mood.  Please pick a brand and stay with that brand from now on.  Now that you are on a lower dose, little differences (like a butterfly's wings) = monsoons of mood changes!   Consider this event a "bounce," and do not make any adjustments for 3 months - 

 

except for this one:  if you truly feel like the Seroquel is too strong, it's only been a couple of days, you can take it back down to 25 or even 12.5.  But then stay there.  Do not adjust your drugs based on how you feel.  Waves and windows, right?

 

You cannot fix drug withdrawal with another drug.  So pick a dose and stay there, and plan on staying there at least until after Christmas.  

 

Holding is hard work (I've said this so much lately!)  Holding is healing - it's during the long holds that the healing takes place, not during the frantic grasping for something to help with symptoms - but during the holding.

 

You can do this!

[Cheeky]

I do understand what you all are talking about, I just don't understand how I'm feeling like this when I have upped my dose , does it take time for your body to adjust to the new does . Sorrry for the questions

[JanCarol]

Yes, it takes 4 days for your body to achieve blood serum levels, and then about 3 weeks for it to change your brain.

 

But - you've taken a drug to try and fix another drug, which is not really recommended.  The reason I suggested you could drop it quickly down to a more reasonable dose, is that you have only been on the higher dose of Seroquel for a few days.  After 3-4 days, though, you may have to stay at 50 mg.

 

As Alto reminded me, 50 mg is a "middling dose," not a low dose (regardless of what your doctor thinks).

 

I was just trying to prevent you future hardship.

 

What have you decided to do about brand of Paxil?  Are you going to "tough it out" on the new brand?  Or make an effort to get back on the old brand?  What do you think about that?

[Cheeky]

I'm going to have to tough it out with the Paxil brand that I'm on, I can only get the same pharmacist next week.

I sent an email to Stuart Shipko MD as he has written a book on antidepressant withdrawal and told him my story , I will paste how the conversation went.

 

Hi Dr Shipko,

 

I have been following you and your research of the dangers of these drug and am very impressed by your knowledge.

 

I am a mother from Australia who has been on an antidepressant for numerous years. I have tried many times coming of my medication with no help from doctors. Here in Australia no dr is aware of antidepressant withdrawal.

 

I would be so happy to have a phone consultation with you if your able to do that. I really need advice on how I’m going start this.

 

If you could help out it would be most appreciated.

 

 

 

Thankyou Giovanna Lee

 

I do occasional phone calls. How many years of total ssri exposure? Which drug are you on now?

 

 

 

 

 

I was put on Paxil 20mg - 40mg when I was a 17 year old and now I've just turned 40. I was told I had a chemical imbalance and never to get of it.

Two years ago I decided I want to try to come of it and tapered it in 8 weeks from 40mg to

10mg and had a complete melt down. I put myself in hospital as I knew there was something seriously wrong. The doctors told me it was my recurring depression and aniexty, the problem was I had never had aniexty and depression like that even before Paxil. The doctors tried me on Cymbalta for 3 weeks then Zoloft for another 6 weeks with the added

50mg of Seraquel. I asked them to put me back on Paxil but they wouldn't, so I left and reinstated my Paxil and was better after 2 weeks. I have done a lot of researching and have found many like myself. In

Australia there is no dr that believes in withdrawal and so that's why I'm writing for your help . I don't mind having to pay a price as I want to do this correctly. I have tried tapering again recently and in one year I went from 50mg to 12.5 Seraquel tapering by 12% and Paxil 40mg to 35mg 5% tappers and after doing this I have crashed again . I have in the last week went back up to 40mg Paxil and 50mg Seraquel.

I really would appreciate your advice.

 

Thanks and kind regards Giovanna Lee

 

 

In your situation there is no right way to proceed except with what you are already doing - tapering very slowly. The risks that you are taking by tapering Paxil after so many years are substantial (you might want to read my eBook on SSRI antidepressants for more on this subject). You might be better off just slowly tapering off the Seroquel and leaving the Paxil alone

 

 

Okay so just tapper the Seraquel and leave the Paxil and take it forever, is that what you mean ?

 

Thanks Giovanna

 

 

Yes this is my best guess. No way to know what is best.

Good luck

 

 

 

So this was his response, very disheartened

[Cheeky]

Hey everyone I'm still dealing with getting waves of aniexty especially in the morning ,on and off druring the day and my ears have slight ringing and I feel like I have to poop them like being on an airplane . I need to go to work next week and I'm so worried I hope I will be okay, I just want to sleep all day. I'm just hoping I get my stability soon.

[Shep]

Hi everyone,

I'm feeling really disheartened. I wish I never started this Paxil tapper . I was feeling so good and now I feel riddled with aniexty and worry. I have two children to look after and work full time and I'm scared I'm going to be like this permanently. I've only just turned 40 and have so much life in head of me and sometimes I think that if I stay on Paxil then mayby in 10 years time they will have something to help us come off it. I really Just don't know. I know so many people that have been on Paxil for as long as I have and they are having a great life. Is this a wave I'm going through ?

 

 

Hi, Cheeky.

 

I'm reading through your thread and thought I'd offer some support, as Seroquel was my last drug to drop.

 

I think this post I copied here is one of the most telling in your narrative. Having two children to care for and working full time must bring an enormous amount of stress.

 

What I'm not seeing in your thread is any talk about self care. What are you doing to care for yourself while you're caring for other people? Are you able to do any of the Non-drug techniques to cope with emotional symptoms?  There are some links to mindfulness threads in that link, as well as many other helpful tools.

 

Are you able to "change the channel" as Alto describes here? 

 

This thread on Neuro Emotions really came in handy for me, too. 

 

It's important that you implement some of these techniques into your daily life, practicing them until they become habit. 

 

I noticed you were 18 when you first went on these drugs. I was 17, so I do understand what it's like to spend your entire adult life on them. It's important to build a solid framework of non-drug coping skills to hold your life up as you come off the drugs. It's just as important to build this framework as it is to taper slowly. 

 

The Change the Channel link is really good for when you're stressed. Try writing down three things you can do the next time you're hit with anxiety or panic and see if it works to "change the channel". 

 

Sending healing vibes your way. 

[Cheeky]

I'm trying very hard, i think i have to keep myself busy to distract myself feeling sorry for  myself, I feel zonked off my head with this seraquel , but I'm too scared at going lower in case the withdrawal gets too bad. What would you do if you were me ?

[AliG]

Cheeky.  As it has still only been 5 days ( by my calculations ) if I were you I would perhaps drop the Seroquel back to 25mg and HOLD. That is only what I would do. Since you're having symptoms from the increase, I would take the risk but at this point all bets are off and there are no guarantees either way. It puts you in a tough spot and I don't think anyone can tell you which way to go at this point because it's so hard to know how your system will react given the recent changes.

[Cheeky]

I just think I won't change anything and stay were I'm at 40mg Paxil and 50mg Seraquel. It has only been a week since I upped my doses , I am just wanting to feel better and it's hard waiting to stabilize. I just worry I won't stablize that is my fear and I know no other antidepressant is going to work when you've been on Paxil for 22 years. I have already tried Cymbalta and Zoloft and it was a nightmare. Sorry I just would do anything to feel normal again

[scallywag]

You'll need to give yourself time to stabilize.  What non-drug techniques are you using to cope with your symptoms?

[Cheeky]

I'm just trying to be nice to myself, I've had this week of work and I go back on Tuesday. I will wait till I get stable then will work out what to do then. I've only just turned 40 and really want to be off these drugs by 50, so I can heal and be the person I was when I was a teen, happy go lucky person.

[scallywag]

Being nice to yourself is always a good idea.   To increase skills that allow you to cope with physical, cognitive and emotional withdrawal symptoms, please read or review
Non-drug techniques to cope with emotional symptoms

[Shep]

I'm trying very hard, i think i have to keep myself busy to distract myself feeling sorry for  myself, I feel zonked off my head with this seraquel , but I'm too scared at going lower in case the withdrawal gets too bad. What would you do if you were me ?

 

You ask "What would you do if you were me?"

 

Scallywag's post was spot on - while being nice to yourself is good, it's most likely not enough, which is why she linked you to the non-drug coping skills section. For many (if not most) of us, coming off these drugs is difficult and we need to be as prepared as possible for a very difficult ride at times. 

 

That doesn't make it impossible, it just means that being prepared is extremely important.

 

Some questions for you:

 

1. Do you really want off the drugs? Enough to put it at the top of your priority list? I do understand needing to work and take care of family, but is your current job too stressful for this process? Do you have close friends or family to help with your children? Are you in a position where you can get help with housework and / or yardwork? 

 

In other words, are there things you need to do to make your world a gentler place to withdraw in? 

 

I lost a good job due to withdrawal symptoms being far too much for me to stay in my current position, so I found a much less stressful job, moved into a cheaper apartment, and am coping much better. I'm not saying that everyone has to do this, but for me, my symptoms were so profound with cognitive decline, I had no choice.

 

But nearly 4 years into the withdrawal and recovery phase, I am positive I'll make a strong comeback.

 

Try to make your world an easier place for you and your family if coming off these drugs is at the top of your priority list. 

 

 

2.  Keep track of your drug use and symptoms in this format - Keep notes on paper about your drug dosages and daily symptom pattern

 

This will allow you to know exactly what your symptoms are and then you can target your non-drug coping skills accordingly as well as guide your drug taper speed. I just read two years worth of your posts, and I still don't have a clear idea of exactly what you're struggling with.

 

The fact that you're just as drugged now as you were when you came to this forum is a key indicator that you also aren't sure what you need to do. 

 

If you see a pattern of insomnia, target your non-drug coping skills for insomnia. If it's anxiety, GI problems, neuro emotions, anger and rage, etc. than you can target your non-drug coping skills for those specific issues.

 

Be as specific as you can. Write it down. Target the non-drug coping skills and make them mean something. 

 

 

3.  Remind yourself often that you are making what may be the biggest life change you've ever made. I'm still in email contact with several friends from the first forum I was on (a benzo forum), and we all are well off our drugs and in the healing process.  I'm not the same person I was before I came off these drugs, and even though I still have a long ways to go with memory problems and dp/dr, I'm so much better emotionally.  I see the same thing in all of my email friends, all of us polydrugged since a young age, and decades later, we're drug free and recovering.

 

 

Just some thoughts. I see you struggling and going back to the same patterns of drug use. I hope this can help you break free of this pattern and find your way off the polydrugging merry-go-round and into a new way of living. 

[JanCarol]

Hey Cheeky - even though he is a renowned author, Shipko is not in agreement with many of us at SA about recovery from the drugs.

 

It depends on you - what you are willing to go through.  You've gotten excellent advice here from Ali, Shep and Scally about how to proceed.

 

You can read a discussion about Shipko's negative (and sometimes frightening) philosophy here:

http://survivingantidepressants.org/index.php?/topic/4787-mia-blog-entry-by-dr-shipko-on-wd/

 

you will see that, while he has scared a good many people - we are seeing more people recovering and doing better with slower, gentler tapers than he is seeing.

 

You can come off the drugs eventually.  If your last attempt was too fast, you will have to go slower - and it is vital that you use the techniques Shep and Scally talked about.  You need a toolkit to support your taper.

 

I know you are holding now.  While you are holding is a great time to learn things, like:

Withdrawal Dialogues - cartoons to encourage you

Delayed Onset of Withdrawal Symptoms

Intro to Antidepressant Withdrawal Syndrome

Healing from Antidepressants - Patterns of Recovery (by Toxic Antidepressants)

 

and most of all:

Before You Begin Taper - What you Should Know

 

I hope you see the sun today.

[Cheeky]

Hi everyone,

Thank you all for your support , I really appreciate it.

I have decided to wait a couple of months for everything to calm down with my brain and then will start the tapper again. This time I will be doing a 2% taper every 8 weeks and see how it goes..

When I get there will ask your advice what I should taper first.

I'm 85% feeling back to normal , I get slight waves of anxiety still but not that bad.

I'm at work today and feeling okay, I just wish I wasn't in this situation. I'm hopping next year things will be a bit easier for me, so I can begin this journey.

I have a question, if I hadn't up dosed on my paxil and seriquel would I have eventually stabilized, is that what happens and then when your feeling better you drop again is this what you do?

And another question, my brother-in-law is on 60mg of Paxil per day with a xanax every morning, will he eventually get himself into trouble if he doesn't stop , he never wants to stop taking them.

[Cheeky]

Hey everyone, I just wanted to let you know I'm feeling better and decided that as I've only been on 50mg of Seraquel for 10 nights I've reduced it to 43mg and see how that goes . What do you think ?

[scallywag]

Cheeky, given the problems you've been having, I suggest making your next dose 45 mg or more of Seroquel and staying at that dose. 43 mg is a 14% reduction. It would be better to do reduce from 50 mg by 10% or less, or 5 mg or less.

[Cheeky]

1995 to 2014 Paxil 20mg - 50mg

2014October  18th  25mg Seraquel Started

          October  16th Tapered of Paxil in1 week ( Doctor toke me off Paxil in a one week taper )

          Oct 25th started Cymbalta on 30mg for 1 week

          Nov 7th 60mg Cymbalta for 2 weeks

          Nov 25th -28th 90mg Cymbalta - plus 50mg Seraquel

          Nov 28th to 7th Dec - started Zoloft 50mg

          Dec 8th -12th Dec 75mg Zoloft

          Dec 16th 100mg Zoloft and still on the 50mg Seraquel-

2015 Jan 15th 125mg Zoloft and 50mg seraquel

 Hospital Admission     

          Jan 21st 20mg Paxil plus 50mg Seraquel

          Jan  24th 30mg Paxil

          Jan 27th  40mg Paxil

          Febuary 24th-started Seraquel Tapper  to 43.7mg

          March 29th 37.5mg  seraquel

          May 6th 31.25mg

          May 28th 25mg

          Nov 4th 21mg Seraquel

2016 Feb14th 12.5mg Seraquel and still on 40mg Paxil

          May1st started my Paxil tapper 5% 38mg

          June 6th 5% 36.8mg

          July 23rd 35.5mg

          August 6th 35mg
          August 23rd 34.5mg

Crashed

        October 19th 40mg Paxil and 50mg Seraquel at night 

        November 2nd 43mg Seraquel

[stan]

in your case, each updose downdose, introducing a new drug is a risk of severe suffering

the only way is to taper slowly one, stabilize, and then taper the last

if bad, hop, updose, better, hop downdose etc

it does not function as this

when you taper, it is normal to suffer, you have to withstand

 

after so many years, you have strong changes in your neurones, your body needs the chemical, without he cannot function

so taper slowly, suffer and continue

[Cheeky]

Don't you think that becouse I've only been in the updose of Seraquel for two week, I can tapper it more quickly. Isn't that what Alto says ?

[ChessieCat]

Tapering faster than 10% of the previous dose is only suggested for people who have:

 

1. just started on a new drug
2. been on it for a very short period of time
3. don't have a recent history of taking psychiatric drugs

 

I suggest you re-read:  Why taper by 10% of my dosage?

 

And these too:

 

Brain Remodelling

Video:  Healing From Antidepressants - Patterns of Recovery

[AliG]

Cheeky. Unless I'm mistaken I always thought that advice was for someone who had just started on medication and could therefore taper more speedily as the drug had not yet " changed their brain" . You have somewhat of a history and have most probably become sensitized during this process.

 

 I advised earlier that perhaps if you stabilized on a lower dose it would be more advantageous in the long term . As you are already on this dose , if you can hold steady for a good while, it will hopefully go well. Yes, there is more to taper now  but at the recommended taper of 10 % .

Ali

Edit : Posted at the same time as CC.

[Cheeky]

Hi everyone,

Well just an update and a question.

I've been doing okay since I reinstated but I still feel a little anxious some mornings but 85% better, so I'm not complaining.

I'm a little worried as I have to have day surgery on the 17th January and the doctors said I will be haveing a local anaesthetic and then be on antibiotics of a couple of weeks to prevent infection. Is this going to affect the medication I'm on ? I'm really worried about it.

[Shep]

Hi, Cheeky.

 

Do you have the names of the anaesthetic and the antibiotic?

 

If possible, I would try to avoid any fluoroquinolone antibiotics and ask for one of the older - and safer - antibiotics. Here's information on why:

 

FDA Says Risks May Outweigh Benefits for Antibiotics Levaquin, Cipro

 

You can check for any adverse reactions by placing all your drugs, including the antibiotic and anaesthetic, in this drug interaction checker:

 

https://www.drugs.com/drug_interactions.html

 

I hope all goes well with your surgery. 

[Cheeky]

Hi everyone,

I've been feeling a bit anxious the last week as I'm having surgery tomorrow. The doctor is doing it under a locale anesthetic and will be making me take Cephalexin tablets for 2 weeks to prevent infection. I hope I will be okay and it won't interfere with my Paxil and Seraquel.

I have stopped taking my fish oil and magnesium a couple of weeks ago as the doctor said so ans will resume them in one weeks time. I just pray my CNs system is over to be okay with these changes

[AliG]

Cheeky. I hope it all goes well. Please let us know. You might be a bit wobbly for a time. That is to be expected. Good luck.

[Cheeky]

Yes wobbly and light hearted I do feel but I know it's becouse my body went through a lot yesterday.

I do have another question that has been bothering me lately. I feel that the Paxil I have taken the last 20 years has not been working as good and my dr told me by adding the Seraquel it will be a buffer effect and helps the Paxil to work again. I just feel that if I was to tapper again wouldn't it make sense to tapper the Paxil first, as it's the only

Thing that is working . I'm just really getting worried about this.

[nz11]

I feel that the Paxil I have taken the last 20 years has not been working as good and my dr told me by adding the Seraquel it will be a buffer effect and helps the Paxil to work again.

Ive need heard of such a statement that 'seroquel can help paxil work again.'

 

Im sorry to read that the doctors are increasing the doses.

 

Hope the surgery went well and wishing you a full complete and speedy recovery.

 

nz11

[Cheeky]

When a dr can't increase your antidepressant becouse your on the highest dose, they add Seraquel or lithium to

It to boost the antidepressant. That's what dr's do in Australia, another reason I ask if I should come off the Paxil first

As it's not working anyway and then the Seraquel?