CAM - can it be helpful to manage withdrawal symptoms?

[freeman]

Hi

 

I am an Orthomolecular Practitioner with extensive experience in the field of mental health, having worked as a clinician for almost 14 years.

I have been treated with ANTIDEPRESSANTS MYSELF BEFORE entering the field of mental healthg and I know first hand of the terrible side effects of the medications.

 

Please take note.

I am not here to promote my business and I have no self interest to promote.

If anyone needs some help and advice, I can give it my best as I am trained professionally.

I have no need for reminders either.

If you want to learn, look at healyourmind.com.au

 

Good luck

[Altostrata]

Hello, freeman.

 

Please define CAM, many people here might not know what that means.

 

What have you observed in helping people recover from psychiatric drugs? What symptom patterns have you seen?

 

What length of time have you seen is needed to help people get close to normal?

[nz11]

freeman i'd love to see your signature would you be so kind as to put it up.

[JanCarol]

Chiming in - CAM?  (but I hate acronyms and go spare when I can't decipher them)

[cymbaltawithdrawal5600]

I am interested in hearing about your personal experience on antidepressants and how you got off them.

 

And yes, what is CAM?

[freeman]

Hi and thank you for your questions.

 

Before I can go and engage the difficult field of mental health, please note that it took me two and a half years of personal research, evidence based plus two years of study through a Canadian institution in the field of Orthomolecular medicine.

 

CAM is Complimentary Alternative Medicine - the type of medicine everyone enjoyed until the Big Pharma came on the scene about 7 or so years ago.

 

But it is still around, all you have to do is understand what is behind mental health - depression, anxiety, psychosis.

 

I am going to first give you some links to read, and if interested, this conversation can continue.

As I am employed full time, I may not have a lot of time at my disposal but will do my best.

 

Look up depression and inflammation:

https://www.google.com.au/search?q=depression+inflammation&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&gws_rd=cr&ei=XkW_VID3Oo6E8gXF74HQCg

 

you will see a number of articles, take your time

 

look up stress and depression

https://www.google.com.au/search?q=depression+inflammation&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&gws_rd=cr&ei=XkW_VID3Oo6E8gXF74HQCg#q=depression+stress

 

look up toxicity and depression

https://www.google.com.au/search?q=depression+inflammation&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&gws_rd=cr&ei=XkW_VID3Oo6E8gXF74HQCg#q=depression+toxicity

 

look up - antidepressants are anti-inflammation fighters

https://www.google.com.au/search?q=depression+inflammation&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&gws_rd=cr&ei=XkW_VID3Oo6E8gXF74HQCg#q=antidepressants+anti+inflammatory

 

look up history of antidepressants

https://www.google.com.au/search?q=depression+inflammation&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&gws_rd=cr&ei=XkW_VID3Oo6E8gXF74HQCg#q=antidepressants+history

 

it started with a TB medication called iproniazid next to imipramine.

http://abcnews.go.com/Health/Depression/story?id=3389691

 

Read about how they really work:

http://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2014/01/16/dr-brogan-on-depression.aspx

 

read this piece of journalism:

http://www.rcpsych.ac.uk/healthadvice/treatmentswellbeing/antidepressants.aspx

note:

How do they work?

We don't know for certain, but we think that antidepressants work by increasing the activity of certain chemicals work in our brains called neurotransmitters. They pass signals from one brain cell to another. The chemicals most involved in depression are thought to be Serotonin and Noradrenaline

 

and we will continue the learning journey if you are willing.

 

PS

I have personally been through Imipramine, Zoloft, Stelazine, Effexor XR, to name a few. Never benefited from them.

I have been off for 5 years, and the Effexor was the worst. I didn't know what I know now.

 

 

[compsports]

Hi Freeman,

 

This is a somewhat OT response but I hope the moderators let it stand because I think your response is important for people to assess what you are about.

 

As a first step in managing diabetes, do you encourage your patients to buy a glucometer so they can monitor how various foods cause blood sugar spikes?  Another reason I am asking is incredulously, someone I know who has uncontrolled diabetes said that no one on her treatment team encouraged her to do this.   So I would hope that CAMs would be different in this regard.

 

And actually, this may be more on topic than I originally thought since many people develop diabetes from being on psych meds.

[Altostrata]

Yes, we know the history of antidepressants, etc. pretty well here.

 

Here's the problem: Difficulties in tapering and withdrawal, particularly withdrawal syndrome, are distinct from what are usually considered "mental health issues."

 

One could have many, many years of training in conventional and alternative mental health treatments and not know a thing about tapering, withdrawal symptoms, or dealing with post-acute withdrawal syndrome. In fact, the vast majority of conventional and alternative practitioners, no matter how experienced, are in this group.

 

Compounding the problem is that withdrawal syndrome is very often misdiagnosed as some variety of "relapse" or emergence of a new, exotic psychiatric disorder, often labeled a flavor of "bipolar," and treated accordingly.

 

Which is a mistake, because the nervous system disregulation indicated by withdrawal is NOT a psychiatric disorder and drugs (or supplements) to treat psychiatric disorders often make them worse.

 

You may be very well-versed in treating mental disorders. We'd like to know more about your specific knowledge of tapering, withdrawal symptoms, and dealing with post-acute withdrawal syndrome.

[freeman]

Hi Freeman,

 

This is a somewhat OT response but I hope the moderators let it stand because I think your response is important for people to assess what you are about.

 

As a first step in managing diabetes, do you encourage your patients to buy a glucometer so they can monitor how various foods cause blood sugar spikes?  Another reason I am asking is incredulously, someone I know who has uncontrolled diabetes said that no one on her treatment team encouraged her to do this.   So I would hope that CAMs would be different in this regard.

 

And actually, this may be more on topic than I originally thought since many people develop diabetes from being on psych meds.

Hi there,

 

My diabetes clients are on a special diet, and should they choose to monitor their blood levels, they are welcome.

I use a combination of extracts to lower insulin resistance. I use exercise sessions as well.

Diabetes can be reversed. Some Mental health drugs raise the levels of cortisol as cortisol is antiinflamatory.

In doing so, you put on weight and become insuline resistant.

I hope this is helpful.

[freeman]

Yes, we know the history of antidepressants, etc. pretty well here.

 

Here's the problem: Difficulties in tapering and withdrawal, particularly withdrawal syndrome, are distinct from what are usually considered "mental health issues."

 

One could have many, many years of training in conventional and alternative mental health treatments and not know a thing about tapering, withdrawal symptoms, or dealing with post-acute withdrawal syndrome. In fact, the vast majority of conventional and alternative practitioners, no matter how experienced, are in this group.

 

Compounding the problem is that withdrawal syndrome is very often misdiagnosed as some variety of "relapse" or emergence of a new, exotic psychiatric disorder, often labeled a flavor of "bipolar," and treated accordingly.

 

Which is a mistake, because the nervous system disregulation indicated by withdrawal is NOT a psychiatric disorder and drugs (or supplements) to treat psychiatric disorders often make them worse.

 

You may be very well-versed in treating mental disorders. We'd like to know more about your specific knowledge of tapering, withdrawal symptoms, and dealing with post-acute withdrawal syndrome.

Hi there

 

I find it difficult to generalise about tapering off, except to say that once one knows what the medication does, how it really works, knowing the history and the background - as well as the condition that it treats, the current biochemistry - then the supplements and neuroprotective factors are easy to choose from.

I will not fall into the trap of giving advise unless I know what the client is treated for, the current biochemistry, psychological frame of mind etc.

Blood tests, pathology is needed as I work scientifically, not using the russian roulette approach.

[Altostrata]

I would like to know more about your approach to tapering. Perhaps you can start by explaining what tests you order and what characteristics you look for, and then your general approach to tapering.

 

Under what circumstances would you recommend cold turkey, for example? What do you do when your clients develop withdrawal symptoms while tapering?

 

To fulfill the promise of the topic title, I'd also like to know more about CAM (what does it mean?) and how it can be helpful to manage withdrawal symptoms.

[freeman]

I would like to know more about your approach to tapering. Perhaps you can start by explaining what tests you order and what characteristics you look for, and then your general approach to tapering.

 

Under what circumstances would you recommend cold turkey, for example? What do you do when your clients develop withdrawal symptoms while tapering?

 

To fulfill the promise of the topic title, I'd also like to know more about CAM (what does it mean?) and how it can be helpful to manage withdrawal symptoms.

Hi Altostrata

 

My routine tests are FBC, hsCRP, ESR, TFT (ft3, ft4, rt3), Adrenal Profile (4sst), LFT, whole blood histamines, Kryptopyrolles, Folate, etc, again, I am generalising because th eblood tests are specific to the presentation. I may use a full OAT if necessary.

What I look for, is the nature of the presentation, some history if any, diet, a full MH assessment. With a twist, as I look at diet and lifestyle.

I would never recommend cold turkey, I would follow the 10% reduction protocol.

But, for a fortnight before, I introduce the first protocol that softens the withdrawal, around 4 extracts.

Then, in the last 2 weeks before ending the withdrawal, I introduce the second protocol, which overlaps the first protocl for those 2 weeks.

The second protocol is to regenerate and repair damaged neurons, mainly via BDNF.

That is all I can say at this stage,the rest is specific to the presentation.

[Petunia]

Hi freeman,

 

What are the 4 extracts that you recommend as part of protocol 1.  How exactly do they soften withdrawal? Do these products need to be taken for the entire length of the taper?

 

What products are given for the second protocol and how do they regenerate/repair damaged neurons?  How long do these second group of products need to be taken for?

 

Given your experience in both Orthomolecular Medicine and Psychiatric Medication Withdrawal, I'm wondering what you would do for someone who possibly has some underlying nutritional imbalances, but is currently in protracted withdrawal (post-acute withdrawal syndrome).   This is me by the way, my nervous system is in a very sensitive state, I can't tolerate any new supplements.

 

I honesty wish I had visited someone like you before I went to my GP looking for something to fix my 'broken brain chemistry'.  But now that my brain and nervous system really is in a chaotic mess from all the drugs, in addition to what else I might have going on prior to that, I don't see how you could possibly help me now.  But I hope that you can prove me wrong.

 

Have you had a chance to look through this site, specifically the tapering forum and the symptoms/self care section?  How do our methods and recommendations compare with your own understandings and protocols?

[freeman]

Hi freeman,

 

What are the 4 extracts that you recommend as part of protocol 1.  How exactly do they soften withdrawal? Do these products need to be taken for the entire length of the taper?

 

What products are given for the second protocol and how do they regenerate/repair damaged neurons?  How long do these second group of products need to be taken for?

 

Given your experience in both Orthomolecular Medicine and Psychiatric Medication Withdrawal, I'm wondering what you would do for someone who possibly has some underlying nutritional imbalances, but is currently in protracted withdrawal (post-acute withdrawal syndrome).   This is me by the way, my nervous system is in a very sensitive state, I can't tolerate any new supplements.

 

I honesty wish I had visited someone like you before I went to my GP looking for something to fix my 'broken brain chemistry'.  But now that my brain and nervous system really is in a chaotic mess from all the drugs, in addition to what else I might have going on prior to that, I don't see how you could possibly help me now.  But I hope that you can prove me wrong.

 

Have you had a chance to look through this site, specifically the tapering forum and the symptoms/self care section?  How do our methods and recommendations compare with your own understandings and protocols?

Petu

 

Sincerely sorry to hear of your pain, I had my hell to live with when coming off Tofranil, cold turkey, 30 years ago. Panic attacks, anxiety, impulsivity, drug use to self medicate etc.

 

Members on this site need to understand the folowing:

 

I cannot give general advice on anything - I need to be specific to the presentation, the drug used, diet, lifestyle, biochemistry.

 

The research is out there, and if you know what to look for, you will find the answer. But it will be specific to you.

 

If you read the book by Dr Breggin,, you will see:

https://books.google.com.au/books?id=xx-XThLyPCQC&pg=PT53&lpg=PT53&dq=dr+peter+breggin,+antidepressants+cork+screw+book&source=bl&ots=QB0ZqgE743&sig=EGoaM40jFmwtUlUh86SQcplGZxo&hl=en&sa=X&ei=m63AVLvBMc2l8AX_iYCQCA&ved=0CDMQ6AEwAw#v=onepage&q=dr%20peter%20breggin%2C%20antidepressants%20cork%20screw%20book&f=false

 

but if you research, you will see that there are a number of extracts that in research, restore the neural function as well as 'awaken dead neurons'.

 

This is important to know:

https://www.google.com.au/search?q=quinolinic+acid+suicide&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&gws_rd=cr&ei=HrHAVO78D4b88AXkgoCoCA

 

and if you know how to put two and two together, read this:

https://www.google.com.au/search?q=quinolinic+acid+suicide&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&gws_rd=cr&ei=HrHAVO78D4b88AXkgoCoCA#q=kynurenine+pathway&spell=1

 

then it will start to make sense

 

I will not comment any further on this site about who and what because every case is specific.

[nz11]

Freeman i would love to see your drug signature in detail and how you tapered off and how long you were on for. Is this too much to ask. I guess so .

 

I looked at this link you gave the others appear to go nowhere

read this piece of journalism:

http://www.rcpsych.a...epressants.aspx

 

Freeman this is pharma indoctrination ....this is what it says:

.....................................................................//....................................................................................

Are antidepressants addictive?

Antidepressant drugs don't cause the addictions that you get with tranquillisers, alcohol or nicotine, in the sense that:

 

• you don't need to keep increasing the dose to get the same effect;
• you won't find yourself craving them if you stop taking them.

However, up to a third of people who stop SSRIs and SNRIs have withdrawal symptoms which can last between 2 weeks and 2 months.

 

These include:

• stomach upsets
• flu like symptoms
• anxiety
• dizziness
• vivid dreams or nightmares
• sensations in the body that feel like electric shocks (see references)

In most people these withdrawal effects are mild, but for a small number of people they can be quite severe. They seem to be most likely to happen with Paroxetine (Seroxat) and Venlafaxine (Efexor). It is generally best to taper off the dose of an antidepressant rather than stop it suddenly.

Some people have reported that, after taking an SSRI for several months, they have had difficulty managing once the drug has been stopped and so feel they are addicted to it. Most doctors would say that it is more likely that the original condition has returned. {What a load of BS}

 

The Committee of Safety of Medicines in the UK reviewed the evidence in 2004 and concluded 'There is no clear evidence that the SSRIs and related antidepressants have a significant dependence liability or show development of a dependence syndrome according to internationally accepted criteria.'

 

 

SSRI antidepressants, suicidal feelings and young people

There is some evidence of increased suicidal thoughts (although not actual suicidal acts) and other side-effects in young people taking antidepressants. So, SSRI antidepressants are not licensed for use in people under 18. However, the National Institute for Clinical excellence has stated that Fluoxetine, an SSRI antidepressant, can be used in the under-18s.

 

There is no clear evidence of an increased risk of self-harm and suicidal thoughts in adults of 18 years or over. But, individuals mature at different rates. Young adults are more likely to commit suicide than older adults, so a young adult should be particularly closely monitored if he or she takes an SSRI antidepressant.

 

 

.................................//...................This is apalling info...................................

 

Freeman you have no idea about how to deal with protracted wdl.

 

And for your info that is an old Breggin book, yes he knows about these drugs and why not to take them but Breggin doesnt know how to get people off these drugs esp tapers that involve years in length and if he does he is keeping it to himself as he appears silent on the specifics in his writing and that goes for protracted wdl, imo

 

I will not comment any further on this site about who and what because every case is specific.

i can see that your interests are only self serving!

 

Do you know what i reckon ....i reckon you  have no idea.

 

One thing i found in wdl is that there are a lot of people who are happy to take my money off me.

 

I am going to first give you some links to read, and if interested, this conversation can continue.

Excuse me ...this is emotional blackmail! Give me a break!

 

Hey let me give you a link to look up

https://www.google.co.nz/search?q=bullsh*t+artists&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&gws_rd=cr&ei=DbfAVNanBYW8mgW5noHQDg

[freeman]

 

Freeman i would love to see your drug signature in detail and how you tapered off and how long you were on for. Is this too much to ask. I guess so .

 

I looked at this link you gave the others appear to go nowhere

read this piece of journalism:

http://www.rcpsych.a...epressants.aspx

 

Freeman this is pharma indoctrination ....this is what it says:

.....................................................................//....................................................................................

Are antidepressants addictive?

Antidepressant drugs don't cause the addictions that you get with tranquillisers, alcohol or nicotine, in the sense that:

 

• you don't need to keep increasing the dose to get the same effect;
• you won't find yourself craving them if you stop taking them.

However, up to a third of people who stop SSRIs and SNRIs have withdrawal symptoms which can last between 2 weeks and 2 months.

 

These include:

• stomach upsets
• flu like symptoms
• anxiety
• dizziness
• vivid dreams or nightmares
• sensations in the body that feel like electric shocks (see references)

In most people these withdrawal effects are mild, but for a small number of people they can be quite severe. They seem to be most likely to happen with Paroxetine (Seroxat) and Venlafaxine (Efexor). It is generally best to taper off the dose of an antidepressant rather than stop it suddenly.

Some people have reported that, after taking an SSRI for several months, they have had difficulty managing once the drug has been stopped and so feel they are addicted to it. Most doctors would say that it is more likely that the original condition has returned. {What a load of BS}

 

The Committee of Safety of Medicines in the UK reviewed the evidence in 2004 and concluded 'There is no clear evidence that the SSRIs and related antidepressants have a significant dependence liability or show development of a dependence syndrome according to internationally accepted criteria.'

 

 

SSRI antidepressants, suicidal feelings and young people

There is some evidence of increased suicidal thoughts (although not actual suicidal acts) and other side-effects in young people taking antidepressants. So, SSRI antidepressants are not licensed for use in people under 18. However, the National Institute for Clinical excellence has stated that Fluoxetine, an SSRI antidepressant, can be used in the under-18s.

 

There is no clear evidence of an increased risk of self-harm and suicidal thoughts in adults of 18 years or over. But, individuals mature at different rates. Young adults are more likely to commit suicide than older adults, so a young adult should be particularly closely monitored if he or she takes an SSRI antidepressant.

 

 

.................................//...................This is apalling info...................................

 

Freeman you have no idea about how to deal with protracted wdl.

 

And for your info that is an old Breggin book, yes he knows about these drugs and why not to take them but Breggin doesnt know how to get people off these drugs esp tapers that involve years in length and if he does he is keeping it to himself as he appears silent on the specifics in his writing and that goes for protracted wdl, imo

 

I will not comment any further on this site about who and what because every case is specific.

i can see that your interests are only self serving!

 

Do you know what i reckon ....i reckon you  have no idea.

 

One thing i found in wdl is that there are a lot of people who are happy to take my money off me.

 

I am going to first give you some links to read, and if interested, this conversation can continue.

Excuse me ...this is emotional blackmail! Give me a break!

 

Hey let me give you a link to look up

https://www.google.co.nz/search?q=bullsh*t+artists&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&gws_rd=cr&ei=DbfAVNanBYW8mgW5noHQDg

 

Kiwi

 

Sory you feel this way.

I will not take your money.

You have no idea of what I am talking about, i gave you almost all the info, but you don't know how to read.

The piece of journalism was by a psych site, obviously bullsh*t. I didn't say it wasn't. It was bait for the fools.

But the rest is good, if you know how to read.

I have many clients who are grateful that I have saved their sanity.

I don't need any more validation.

 

And I don't know of the emotional blackmail...obviously, victim mentality.

You can do your own research...took me two and a half years, plus 2 years of studies

4 and a half years in total.

 

And if I have no idea, I would not run a clinic, and the clinic would not have as many clients as I have.

So, good luck, look carefully, don't give your money away, do your research, and take responsibility for your actions.

Blaming gets you nowhere, if anything, you dig yourself deeper.

 

But for the people that want to have a civil conversation, I am here.

[nz11]

Aussie

Thanks for the reply and i wish you well.

I like some of the criticisms you make on your web page however i feel you are silent on coping with ssri drug wdl and protracted wdl.

 

There's a new science out called orthomolecular medicine. You correct the chemical imbalance with amino acids and vitamins and minerals that are naturally in the body. Margot Kidder

 

So you see depression (whatever that is anyway...how do YOU define this term?) as a chemical imbalance then ? Thats debateable.

But we are dealing with people who have had a chemical imbalance created when one never existed in the first place. These people are very sensitive to supplements their brains and cns is seriously impaired.

 

There is nothing proprietary about orthomolecular medicine. The lab tests can be ordered by your CLINICIAN or other doctor. Treatment consists of non-patented, nutritional supplements which can be found at most any health food store across the country.

As i say many cannot cope with supplements.

 

In contrast, when the patient is treated with the orthomolecular approach, he is given a histamine lab test; he is told if his histamines are too high or too low; and his histamine level is restored with nutritional medicine. With his histamines back in the normal range, he is mentally well.

So restore the histamine and the patient is happy as larry ...and how is that done ...by supplements? You say you taper people at 10% so that means you see them regularly for 30 months is that right ...and what if they are not coping as 10% is too fast. Or maybe you dont have such people right.

 

I personally think you cant read anything into  testing hormones resuilts etc when someone is on a drug  until that person is off the drug entirely and even then the body is busy rebalancing at best it can.

 

Clearly i am not as educated as you are but you remain, silent elusive and vague in the specifics and i am not convinced. However though the world would be a lot better if we had  you folk instead of drug peddling psychiatrists .However in the meantime someone has to undo the mess they have made .

[Altostrata]

Please, freeman is trying to respond in good faith, let's be polite.

 

freeman, I understand you treat on a case-by-case basis, but can you explain more about how you implement the 10% method and what you do if withdrawal symptoms appear?

[nz11]

Freeman, I would like to apologize for my rudeness.

nz11.

[freeman]

Please, freeman is trying to respond in good faith, let's be polite.

 

freeman, I understand you treat on a case-by-case basis, but can you explain more about how you implement the 10% method and what you do if withdrawal symptoms appear?

Hi there,

 

Please believe me that I feel pressured to make general statements and this is unprofessional.

 

A good mechanic will not often give you a diagnosis of what is wrong with your car untill he/she will do a diagnostic assessment.

I will not give the names of the ingredients that are in the protocol as some may mis-use them, meaning - may not be appropriate for their condition.

I will not play russian roulette.

 

Every untidepressant has a specific effect which is slightly or more different than others.

Effexor and Mirtazapine have different effects, on the body, so withdrawal will be diferent.

Clo-zapine, Olan-zapine, Mirta-zapine, are similar chemically.

So the withdrawal has to be modified to counteract the effects - that taking the medication away - will have on the body.

 

You also need to remember that antidepressants like many medications are nutrient muggers, see:

https://www.google.com.au/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0CB0QFjAA&url=https%3A%2F%2Ftantor-site-assets.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fbonus-content%2FB0592_DrugMuggers%2FB0592_DrugMuggers_PDF_1.pdf&ei=9WDBVJC9JNbg8AXwmIHACA&usg=AFQjCNF1MyOI-IV3BqWXpp_-HDkXO8Ljag&bvm=bv.83829542,d.dGc

 

so you need to rebalance the body before even thinking about withdrawal. Especially if on other medications.

 

The tapering off is accompanied buy a protocol of minimum 4 extracts that protect the brain from damage.

These extracts are validated in research, not necessarily by the psychiatric industry.

 

The second protocol is to rebuild the damaged neurons that are due to years of antidepressant use.

4 to 6 extracts as well.

 

That is all I can say for now. I understand that some people may be disappointed that I do not reveal it, but it would be careless of me, without any former diagnosis/assessment, to rush and claim that this or that works, for everyone, for every medication.

 

I hope you can understand this. If not, please agree to disagree.

[dalsaan]

 

Please, freeman is trying to respond in good faith, let's be polite.

 

freeman, I understand you treat on a case-by-case basis, but can you explain more about how you implement the 10% method and what you do if withdrawal symptoms appear?

 

Hi there,

 

Please believe me that I feel pressured to make general statements and this is unprofessional.

 

A good mechanic will not often give you a diagnosis of what is wrong with your car untill he/she will do a diagnostic assessment.

I will not give the names of the ingredients that are in the protocol as some may mis-use them, meaning - may not be appropriate for their condition.

I will not play russian roulette.

 ...

 

That is all I can say for now. I understand that some people may be disappointed that I do not reveal it, but it would be careless of me, without any former diagnosis/assessment, to rush and claim that this or that works, for everyone, for every medication.

 

I hope you can understand this. If not, please agree to disagree.

People are not asking you for a diagnosis, nor are they asking you for a cure all magic bullet that will fix everyone. In fact, those two things are the last thing we want given they are the very reason we are in this situation. And, that's why we approach any strategy for withdrawal with healthy scepticism. We have learnt to tread very cautiously and weigh up the value and risks of any strategy

 

Unfortunately, I feel like you are approaching us in a paternalistic manner, not disclosing key details for our own good. This means we are not in a position to determine whether you have anything to offer and whether your protocols might cause more harm than good.

 

You may well have something to offer but, if at the end of the day, you feel you can't provide key details here for us to make that judgement and people can only access that through a consultation with you (?), then I'm not sure this thread has much value.

[freeman]

 

 

Please, freeman is trying to respond in good faith, let's be polite.

 

freeman, I understand you treat on a case-by-case basis, but can you explain more about how you implement the 10% method and what you do if withdrawal symptoms appear?

Hi there,

 

Please believe me that I feel pressured to make general statements and this is unprofessional.

 

A good mechanic will not often give you a diagnosis of what is wrong with your car untill he/she will do a diagnostic assessment.

I will not give the names of the ingredients that are in the protocol as some may mis-use them, meaning - may not be appropriate for their condition.

I will not play russian roulette.

 ...

 

That is all I can say for now. I understand that some people may be disappointed that I do not reveal it, but it would be careless of me, without any former diagnosis/assessment, to rush and claim that this or that works, for everyone, for every medication.

 

I hope you can understand this. If not, please agree to disagree.

People are not asking you for a diagnosis, nor are they asking you for a cure all magic bullet that will fix everyone. In fact, those two things are the last thing we want given they are the very reason we are in this situation. And, that's why we approach any strategy for withdrawal with healthy scepticism. We have learnt to tread very cautiously and weigh up the value and risks of any strategy

 

Unfortunately, I feel like you are approaching us in a paternalistic manner, not disclosing key details for our own good. This means we are not in a position to determine whether you have anything to offer and whether your protocols might cause more harm than good.

 

You may well have something to offer but, if at the end of the day, you feel you can't provide key details here for us to make that judgement and people can only access that through a consultation with you (?), then I'm not sure this thread has much value.

 

Well then, we agree to disagree.

Good luck, as

[Meimeiquest]

I have found orthomolecular psychiatry extremely helpful for my "biochemistry" and it has greatly improved my baseline functioning, but each little decrement in drugs is still very difficult, but I do bounce back faster.

[Petunia]

I will not comment any further on this site about who and what because every case is specific.

 

 

Hi freeman,

Thank you for your response to my post.  I have to admit though, that I was disappointed that you chose not to answer my questions.  Exactly like Dalsaan wrote, I was trying to ascertain if you had anything new to offer me, which I hadn't already investigated, but I still don't know and its quite frustrating.

 

This is important to know:

https://www.google.com.au/search?q=quinolinic+acid+suicide&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&gws_rd=cr&ei=HrHAVO78D4b88AXkgoCoCA

 

and if you know how to put two and two together, read this:

https://www.google.com.au/search?q=quinolinic+acid+suicide&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&gws_rd=cr&ei=HrHAVO78D4b88AXkgoCoCA#q=kynurenine+pathway&spell=1

 

then it will start to make sense

 

 

 

I'm familiar with the work of Dr.Breggin, thank you, but as nz11 wrote, he doesn't provide the kind of help most of us here need, so I'm wondering why you posted that link for me.

 

I'm also confused about why you posted me a link to search results related to quinolinic acid  and suicide, plus one pointing to articles about tryptophan in response to my question about the ingredients in some of your extracts.

 

You suggest that by putting two and two together, then it will make sense.  So from this, I'm understanding that your extracts do not contain quinolinic acid but may possibly contain tryptophan??

 

We have an information topic on the use of tryptophan, which contains a post by one of the few doctors with some experience with psyche drug withdrawal.  In part, Dr. Shipko wrote:

 

As noted above, use of 5HTP or tryptophan should not be done while tapering because if taken along with a SSRI it can cause serotonin syndrome.

 

I hope you will have a look at this important topic, especially if your protocol does contain tryptophan because this can cause more harm to someone tapering and in withdrawal.

 

http://survivingantidepressants.org/index.php?/topic/656-5-htp-5-hydroxytryptophan-and-tryptophan/?p=32807

 

Have you had a chance to look through this site, specifically the tapering forum and the symptoms/self care section?  How do our methods and recommendations compare with your own understandings and protocols?

 

I would still be interested in a response to this.

 

I know you are busy, working full time in your business, and I am sorry, but I do have one more question which I hope you will answer.

 

In you first post you say:

 

I am not here to promote my business and I have no self interest to promote.

If anyone needs some help and advice, I can give it my best as I am trained professionally.

 

You seem reluctant to provide the help and advice we are asking you for here on our free web site, but instead direct us to having an individual consultation with you, for which I assume there is a charge.

 

So there seems to be a contradiction between those two statements.  How exactly are you helping us?

 

 

[compsports]

Freeman,

 

Regarding Petu's point about Tryptophan, when I was still on Doxepin, I took a multivitamin that had 25 mg of 5htp which caused significant shivering.   It seemed to be the beginning of Serotonin Syndrome.

 

So the question of  how you would monitor people for side effects, particularly if you are providing remedies for Tryptophan is a very legitimate general question since there would be the danger of what I experienced and even worse.

 

Not to pile on but I am finding your answers very frustrating  You can definitely provide information on what is requested in generalities without commenting on specific patient cases.   Medical professionals do that all the time on the Internet. 

[freeman]

 

I will not comment any further on this site about who and what because every case is specific.

 

 

Hi freeman,

Thank you for your response to my post.  I have to admit though, that I was disappointed that you chose not to answer my questions.  Exactly like Dalsaan wrote, I was trying to ascertain if you had anything new to offer me, which I hadn't already investigated, but I still don't know and its quite frustrating.

 

This is important to know:

https://www.google.com.au/search?q=quinolinic+acid+suicide&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&gws_rd=cr&ei=HrHAVO78D4b88AXkgoCoCA

 

and if you know how to put two and two together, read this:

https://www.google.com.au/search?q=quinolinic+acid+suicide&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&gws_rd=cr&ei=HrHAVO78D4b88AXkgoCoCA#q=kynurenine+pathway&spell=1

 

then it will start to make sense

 

 

 

I'm familiar with the work of Dr.Breggin, thank you, but as nz11 wrote, he doesn't provide the kind of help most of us here need, so I'm wondering why you posted that link for me.

 

I'm also confused about why you posted me a link to search results related to quinolinic acid  and suicide, plus one pointing to articles about tryptophan in response to my question about the ingredients in some of your extracts.

 

You suggest that by putting two and two together, then it will make sense.  So from this, I'm understanding that your extracts do not contain quinolinic acid but may possibly contain tryptophan??

 

We have an information topic on the use of tryptophan, which contains a post by one of the few doctors with some experience with psyche drug withdrawal.  In part, Dr. Shipko wrote:

 

As noted above, use of 5HTP or tryptophan should not be done while tapering because if taken along with a SSRI it can cause serotonin syndrome.

 

I hope you will have a look at this important topic, especially if your protocol does contain tryptophan because this can cause more harm to someone tapering and in withdrawal.

 

http://survivingantidepressants.org/index.php?/topic/656-5-htp-5-hydroxytryptophan-and-tryptophan/?p=32807

 

Have you had a chance to look through this site, specifically the tapering forum and the symptoms/self care section?  How do our methods and recommendations compare with your own understandings and protocols?

 

I would still be interested in a response to this.

 

I know you are busy, working full time in your business, and I am sorry, but I do have one more question which I hope you will answer.

 

In you first post you say:

 

I am not here to promote my business and I have no self interest to promote.

If anyone needs some help and advice, I can give it my best as I am trained professionally.

 

You seem reluctant to provide the help and advice we are asking you for here on our free web site, but instead direct us to having an individual consultation with you, for which I assume there is a charge.

 

So there seems to be a contradiction between those two statements.  How exactly are you helping us?

 

Petu,

 

Conversation between shopkeeper in a showe shop and a customer:

-Can you give me some shoes?

-Can I see your feet? I can't tell the size from looking at your shoes.

-Oh! you are a bad shopkeeper, why can't you just guess?

-How will you pay for the shoes?

-I want them for free, includding the fitting.

 

That is about the size of it.

 

Obviously, the articles about Quinolinic acid made no sense, because nobody did any research.

I intened to help you educate yourselves, so you don't depend on anyone. To find out for yourself.

But everyone needs to be spoonfed these days. For free, because that is the expectation.

I will not take anyone as a client from this site, as a matter of principle.

I attempted to give accross some hints that, with the amount of knowledge that is available to the members, as it is claimed, would have made immediate sense. Obviously, this is not the case.

I have a clinic to run and will stop here. The information is available to all of us, not only me. I maintain that I cannot generalise, I can be specific to the presentation, else is speculative and dangerous. You take it as though I seek to take clients. I am being attacked for trying to open some eyes. You talk about being frustrated. Two and a half years, without any help, researching, up untill 3-4 pm. Plus two years of training. Plus 13 years of clinical work. What and how should I transfer this over?

Thank you for your kind words. God bless.

Out.

[freeman]

Freeman,

 

Regarding Petu's point about Tryptophan, when I was still on Doxepin, I took a multivitamin that had 25 mg of 5htp which caused significant shivering.   It seemed to be the beginning of Serotonin Syndrome.

 

So the question of  how you would monitor people for side effects, particularly if you are providing remedies for Tryptophan is a very legitimate general question since there would be the danger of what I experienced and even worse.

 

Not to pile on but I am finding your answers very frustrating  You can definitely provide information on what is requested in generalities without commenting on specific patient cases.   Medical professionals do that all the time on the Internet. 

Hi,

 

I do not use tryptophan, if anyone would have read the articles on the Kynurenine Patwhay, they would have understood why.

Has anyone read them?

Frustrating means you don't get what you want, when you want, as you want.

 

If what you want is worth wanting, you need to work for it.

Good luck.

[Altostrata]

freeman, I agree with Petu, this topic has not communicated much beyond your being a practitioner of orthomolecular medicine who assists people who are tapering off drugs.

 

meimeiquest's experience aside, I have not seen anything in orthomolecular medicine per se that indicates it is better equipped to deal with tapering and withdrawal syndrome than conventional medicine.

 

So far, our conversation has not been productive.

 

The topic title asks CAM - can it be helpful to manage withdrawal symptoms?, but we haven't found out your definition of CAM or whether the answer is yes or no.

 

As dalsaan says, "You may well have something to offer but, if at the end of the day, you feel you can't provide key details here for us to make that judgement and people can only access that through a consultation with you (?), then I'm not sure this thread has much value."

 

We can't let practitioners simply start threads here and assert they're available for consultation.

 

Do you believe that difficulty in going off psychiatric drugs is due to an imbalance in the body, which you can correct with orthomolecular medicine? If so, what is the imbalance and how does it contribute to physiological drug dependency issues?

 

Have you seen any patterns of problems in people who are tapering?

 

By what mechanism do your protocols facilitate tapering or reduce withdrawal symptoms?

 

Have you ever seen post-acute withdrawal syndrome? What do you think causes it? What can you do for it?

 

Finally, I feel compelled to ask -- your Web site lists many causes for "depression" but does not mention emotional, physical, or sexual abuse; unemployment; failure of relationships; death of a loved one; or situational factors. Aren't these external factors important in creating "depression"?

[JanCarol]

Oh Johnny, ye walked into a hornets nest.

 

Please do not assume that these people wish to be spoon fed.  Au Contraire, if you are told your link doesn't provide enough information, it means they are specifically looking for more, and have probably done a good deal of homeworkd.  .

 

This site is the most in depth of its type.  There is research provided on nearly all supplements, minerals, alternative methods, in short, all forms of CAM, as you say.

 

This site is full of PEER experts whose experience rivals your education.  Their school was the school of hard knocks and SA.  Those who follow the SA protocol (slow and steady wins the race) do better than those who ignore the expert advice provided here.   I appreciate that you took the trouble to get the education, and that you want to help people.  And I appreciate that your story took you away from "mainstream medicine" as you perceived that psych meds were doing more harm than good.  As you might see in Mad In America, the providers have NO DIFFICULTY expressing their opinion on magnesium, fish oil, vitamin C, pyroluria, trauma, meditation, injustice, etc.  Perhaps you should go visit them for awhile to learn ways to discuss this without offense;  (it's pretty heated over there at times!)

 

We have our protocols and rules for discussion.  All you need to do is say, "THIS IS NOT MEDICAL ADVICE, but IF this were (blah blah) I would consider (blah blah test) or look to see if (blah blah pathway) could be supplemented.  

 

Keeping your cards close to your chest like this only shows us that you want to sell us a pair of shoes.  You don't want to discuss the latest styles from Paris, or whether you feel that red shoes or blue shoes are preferred, or whether the "customer/client" would prefer a pump to a flat, or a business show.  There is plenty of room to discuss what materials make better shoes, whether plant plastics for the Vegans, or leather for flexibility and  breathability, or fair trade (or otherwise) canvas.  There is plenty you can say about shoes without knowing the size of the person enquiring - especially if you have a passion - as you say you do - about the topic.

 

WE WANT the discussion, we are not looking for diagnosis, or treatment.  In SA, we take responsbility for our own treatment.  We have HAD to, as that is so often the only way to get help.  As you have learned, this is a tough crowd, and you will have to prove your mettle here if you want to play in this playground.

 

I would like to refer people to you - my doctor only sees women.  My husband has had surgery for cancer.  The neighbor's son is kindling bipolar after being on ritalin for 5 years.  All of these are in your neighborhood - but this site is world wide.  There are people seeing acupuncturists, orthomolecular MD's, psychologists, trauma specialists, and psychiatrists, and there are people doing it all on their own, seeing nobody at all, except maybe a GP to prescribe.

 

One of the big battles here is bringing your prescription provider onside.  Traditionally they are reluctant to reduce psych meds because of the myth:  "for life."  You cannot prescribe, so IF I were to come to you, if I were to send someone to you, you would HAVE to work with a prescriber to get an appropriate taper.

 

Have you ever worked with a prescriber before?

 

You have been given plenty of questions here to answer that you can answer without diagnosis.  We seek discussion, we crave discussion, because there is often nobody in our lives who can grasp this minority viewpoint.  If you refuse to discuss, then why are you here?  There is nobody you can help here, if you won't talk to us.  

 

More than just throwing tired links around (we're usually on top of all of the antipsychiatry and anti-drugging books and articles), we want to hear - if you want to talk about the Kynurenine Patwhay - then do so!  What does it do?  What systems does it affect?  How can this disrupt behaviour, emotions, thinking, and sleep?  How can it help?  What foods and substances benefit this pathway?  Which psych drugs (we do not call them "meds")  are damaging to this pathway, which have no effect?  What other pathways - such as OAT or otherwise, does this pathway support?

 

When you start talking like an expert, we will respect your expertise.

[Fresh]

Hi All ,     I have found treatment with Orthomolecular medicine ( following the Walsh Institute protocol) is helping me.   My histamine has increased and my copper has decreased in the 10 months I've been treated.    It's is slow , and hasn't protected me from protracted withdrawal symptoms , but it seems to be getting my system in the desired direction.

 

So I  thought I'd list the ingredients in the capsules that are compounded for me.    .

 

Morning :   Vitamin C (ascorbic acid)                                    Evening :   Vitamin C (ascorbic acid)

                  Vitamin E (mixed Tocopherols)                                             Vitamin E (mixed Tocopherols)

                  Nicotinamide (B3)                                                                  Nicotinamide B3) 

                  Pyridoxine HCL (B6)                                                              Folic acid

                  Pyridoxil-5-Phosphate                                                            Biotin

                  Folic acid                                                                                Zinc (Picolinate)

                  Biotin

                  Cyanocobalamin

 

All my doctor consultations are bulk-billed (free) , but the capsules  (compounded specially for me)  cost around $140  for a months supply   (a little cheaper the more months you get at a time).

[Altostrata]

That's a basic multivitamin they're making for you.

[Meimeiquest]

I can totally understand why you say that. But it is not identical to mine, and the dosages (at least mine and my daughter's) are unique, some quite low and some very high. My daughter is supposed to take 120mg of zinc, although she can't tolerate it yet. Vitamin C is 1000mg twice daily.

[Petunia]

Fresh, the problem with taking a mixed supplement like you are, is that you don't know which ingredients are reducing your withdrawal symptoms and which ones are making them worse.

 

Apart from the Vitamin E and biotin, I've tried every one of the ingredients in your capsules, separately, which I purchased from iHerb.  I especially wanted the zinc to help because I was hoping my symptoms were in part being caused by too high copper.  But taking extra zinc hasn't made any difference.

 

B6 and P5P both made my sleep much worse, I would sleep, but it was like my brain was too active and I would wake up feeling like I had been studying all night.

 

I was thinking that maybe I have Pyrrole Disorder and the Zinc and B6 would fix it.  Maybe I do have the disorder, but the fact that I'm in protracted withdrawal from antidepressants makes it impossible for me to tolerate the treatment for it at this stage.

 

Vitamin C helps, so I'm still taking it. Cyanocobalamin (B12) and methylcobalamin  both made my withdrawal symptoms worse, as did folic acid, folate and methylfolate (B9).  Niacinamide and Niacin both seemed to help at first, but then stopped.

 

Many people find that the B vitamins are too activating in withdrawal and make symptoms worse.

 

If an Orthomolecular Practitioner doesn't understand withdrawal syndrome, its unlikely they are going to be able to help (with that) and its more likely they will recommend products which will make withdrawal symptoms worse, especially if someone is in protracted withdrawal with a sensitized nervous system.

 

My histamine has increased and my copper has decreased in the 10 months I've been treated. 

 

Withdrawal sometimes causes people to become histamine intolerant, and they find that reducing high histamine foods can sometimes help.  I'm wondering why you are trying to increase histamine.

 

Fresh, please would you start an introduction thread for yourself.

[Fresh]

Thanks Petu.      My histamine level was initially 0.2 , so I had almost none. The range is 0.2 to 2.0 , and it ideally to sits at about 1.0   We need histamine to help with controlling anxiety , so mine needs to increase.

 

That's the beauty of this system.    You're not just guessing what you need.     Like , for you , unless you know what your copper level is , you can't

know if the zinc is affecting it or not  , or even if you do have copper toxicity  in the first place.  So much of our self-diagnosis is subjective , and this offers another perspective based on clinical evidence.

 

 

(BTW , my mum's histamine was 2.0 , so her program has the objective of bringing the level down)

 

I'm no expert at this . .  just wanting to share my experiences.   

[Altostrata]

Histamine is a normally occurring chemical messenger in our bodies. It helps regulate a lot of things, including digestion and sleep. The presence of histamine itself does not indicate anything bad.

 

The utility of histamine lab tests is very, very limited -- to very rare disorders involving intense and frequent allergic reactions, see http://labtestsonline.org/understanding/analytes/histamine/tab/test/

 

I've been dealing with histamine food intolerance for 6 months (now almost completely recovered) and I can tell you that if histamine testing was of any use whatsoever, I and others suffering from histamine food intolerance would get it. We do not.

 

If an alternative practitioner orders a histamine test and then proceeds to treat a general health condition on the basis of the results, I would be very wary of what's going on.

 

Just because something can be measured, doesn't mean the measurement has any practical meaning. Same with a measured reduction or increase.

 

If you have the funds and interest to pursue orthomolecular treatment, that's up to you. I've looked into it very closely for myself, and I would not get involved in it. I do not recommend it for treatment of withdrawal syndrome or to enable tapering, unless the practitioner has specific understanding of withdrawal (still waiting for freeman to weigh in on this).

 

In general, people whose nervous systems have been sensitized from withdrawal should avoid high doses of anything and start supplements at very low doses, one at a time.

 

Ever, it could be that one or more ingredients of your custom supplement fulfill some dietary lack and the others do nothing. It could be that some help and some hurt. It could be that you feel a bit better because 1) you are getting sincere attention from a practitioner, and it is reassuring; or 2) withdrawal symptom tends to fade over time, and time has passed.

 

(meimei, you probably know that large amounts of zinc can be dangerous? And screw up copper?)

[Meimeiquest]

Hi Alto, where did you go to research orthomolecular psychiatry? My tendency would be to see things as you do, but when I was so helped by niacin, I had to try to find out what was happening. Everyone around me thinks I am doing so much better, and so do I. I can't imagine that talking to a doctor every six months or so would cause such a placebo effect. Especially since I have been doctored and doctored. My pdoc at the time said a placebo response will not continue over time, but I have no idea what that time frame is. I guess it could still be a placebo response to the supplements that I went full-dose on in August.

 

Yes, the doctors and I are very aware of the dangers of over-treating with zinc. That is why ongoing testing is needed. One afternoon this week my brain was just flying. Which happens, but there is always a cause. I finally figured it was from eating a whole avacado for lunch (strange lunch, I know), as avacados are very high in copper.

 

In interviewing me, they suspected my problem was very different than the testing showed. Whatever that means, or doesn't mean.

 

I don't think these supplements help withdrawal either, nor did the doctors expect it to. They have just helped my baseline, and when your baseline is better, you can tolerate the cuts better, but they are still there. Now the inositol has really helped my tapering, but the ortho docs are probably going to have a fit about it. But I don't think I have ever been in full-blown horrible withdrawal. I was trying to after the Cymbalta near CT in 2006, but I think the lithium aborted it. But really, how will we ever know for sure any of this stuff? The low-histamine diet could even be the."natural" treatment for undermethylation.