Johnmtz: mirtazapine - Starting a scary journey off after 8 years

[johnmtz]

Well, now at 3 months WD from the poison mirtazapine (Remeron).  For the past 2 months my eyesight is so poor it is really depressing me.  I have seen 5 doctors. - 2 optometrists and 3 ophthalmologists and all could find nothing.  I had both an OCT of the retina and scan of the cornea. nothing. 

 

Symptoms:  Whitish haze over everything.  People's faces look like they lost 4 litres of blood.  Poor night vision. Photophobia.

 

I started restasis thinking it was just dry eye. I tried that for 2 moths including preservative free eye drops...Nothing..zip...nada. I got punctal plugs...nothing zip nada.

 

My eyes don't look dry anyway according to doctors. I also take fish oil (good for dry eyes)...nothing..zip...nada.

 

I barely can see to write this.

 

I had PRK done in one eye thinking my epithelium was bad on that eye and to help get better near vision (mono vision). Now that eye is almost blind.

 

So I am wondering if anyone else getting off of SSRIs or SNRIs have had similar visual problems. This is pure hell and doctors just think it is in my head since their equipment dates back to the stone age and they can't find anything.

 

I know there are serotonin receptors in the cornea and retina. It is very possible there is a WD reaction in the eye tissue and it is making it very hard for me to see.

 

What hell...now I wish I were dead. I'm so scared. 

[bluebalu86]

I don't have that specific symptom, but when my withdrawal started I began experiencing non-stop floaters in my eyes. I've been having them for 5 months now and they don't subside. Don't really know what that is or why it's happening. 

[ten0275]

John, hello.

 

I merged your post about the visual disturbances with your original thread. We only have one topic per user in the introductions section.

 

I'm sorry to hear you are suffering as you are. I'm also withdrawing from mirtazapine. I have experienced visual disturbances as well, but have found no solution other than waiting them out. My particular visual disturbances often follow a cut. They are usually floaters (seeing stars) and sometimes, I have these blind spots. I'll look at something and I won't be able to see a piece of it. It is beyond bizarre trying to view something by peeking around a blind spot. My night vision also takes a beating, but when I stabilize, it regains some form. Although, as I age, I find that despite being told I have 20/20 vision, my night vision over-all is deteriorating. Sigh...

 

So you did that rapid taper, right? Went from 45 to 0 in 30 days? Are the eye issues your only hardcore problem at this point? If the doctors are telling you that it isn't due to another cause, then I think you can rest pretty soundly that it is withdrawal symptoms. And like nearly all withdrawal symptoms, if it came with withdrawal, it goes with withdrawal.

 

Hang in there.

 

Dave

[chicken]

Well, now at 3 months WD from the poison mirtazapine (Remeron).  For the past 2 months my eyesight is so poor it is really depressing me.  I have seen 5 doctors. - 2 optometrists and 3 ophthalmologists and all could find nothing.  I had both an OCT of the retina and scan of the cornea. nothing. 

 

Symptoms:  Whitish haze over everything.  People's faces look like they lost 4 litres of blood.  Poor night vision. Photophobia.

 

I started restasis thinking it was just dry eye. I tried that for 2 moths including preservative free eye drops...Nothing..zip...nada. I got punctal plugs...nothing zip nada.

 

My eyes don't look dry anyway according to doctors. I also take fish oil (good for dry eyes)...nothing..zip...nada.

 

I barely can see to write this.

 

I had PRK done in one eye thinking my epithelium was bad on that eye and to help get better near vision (mono vision). Now that eye is almost blind.

 

So I am wondering if anyone else getting off of SSRIs or SNRIs have had similar visual problems. This is pure hell and doctors just think it is in my head since their equipment dates back to the stone age and they can't find anything.

 

I know there are serotonin receptors in the cornea and retina. It is very possible there is a WD reaction in the eye tissue and it is making it very hard for me to see.

 

What hell...now I wish I were dead. I'm so scared. 

John,

I think your eyesight will improve. I've had glasses contacts since I was 13. Remeron did cause some fluctuations in my eyesight but my sight has been holding fairly  steady since I quit Remeron almost a year ago.

 

I've never had any sight issues with any other drug except Remeron. I'm thanking the Lord that I didn't have serious issues but they were enough for me to notice and get it checked out.

[johnmtz]

John, hello.

 

I merged your post about the visual disturbances with your original thread. We only have one topic per user in the introductions section.

 

I'm sorry to hear you are suffering as you are. I'm also withdrawing from mirtazapine. I have experienced visual disturbances as well, but have found no solution other than waiting them out. My particular visual disturbances often follow a cut. They are usually floaters (seeing stars) and sometimes, I have these blind spots. I'll look at something and I won't be able to see a piece of it. It is beyond bizarre trying to view something by peeking around a blind spot. My night vision also takes a beating, but when I stabilize, it regains some form. Although, as I age, I find that despite being told I have 20/20 vision, my night vision over-all is deteriorating. Sigh...

 

So you did that rapid taper, right? Went from 45 to 0 in 30 days? Are the eye issues your only hardcore problem at this point? If the doctors are telling you that it isn't due to another cause, then I think you can rest pretty soundly that it is withdrawal symptoms. And like nearly all withdrawal symptoms, if it came with withdrawal, it goes with withdrawal.

 

Hang in there.

 

Dave

It seems that eye problems are listed on this site too:

 

http://www.theroadback.org/remeronsideeffects.aspx

 

I am treating for dry eye and that helps a little but not much. All my skin is very irritated and dry however. I sure hope this is a WD symptom that will go away with time because I can't function with poor eyesight.  And that of course does not help my rebound depression (as anyone who is "normal" would also be depressed if they could not see well).  

 

I did not taper from 45mg..well one month but that is really just C/T.  

 

And for an added bonus (as if being almost blind is not enough) I have tinnitus in both ears. Now, I did have that before the W/D but now it is worse.  Oh boy...can't see and hear....hurray!  what is next...cancer!!

[johnmtz]

I don't have that specific symptom, but when my withdrawal started I began experiencing non-stop floaters in my eyes. I've been having them for 5 months now and they don't subside. Don't really know what that is or why it's happening. 

I don't seem to have floaters. Maybe floaters are not related to antidepressants. That can happen with age as I understand it. Also if the vitrous in the eye gets too many clumpy proteins but how that would happen with W/D is unclear. But who knows with some of the chemicals that are in our body long-term.  We do have serotonin receptors in the eye and that is almost never considered.

 

In fact, you can get cataracts from antidepressants b/c of the lens in the eye has serotonin receptors. And a famous study at UBC in Canada has shown that AD long-term can cause cataracts.

 

http://news.ubc.ca/2010/03/08/3569/

http://www.naturalnews.com/028966_cataracts_antidepressants.html

[freespirit]

John,

 

Sorry things are so rough. I've had problems with vision and hearing through wd. For awhile, I thought I was going deaf. The tinnitus wasn't that bad at that point, but I had to keep turning up the TV to hear..and even then, could not catch a lot of the dialogue. I had trouble hearing conversation if I was in a restaurant or other public place too. That has gone away, thankfully.

 

I had a sudden development of floaters after one cut. I saw a specialist, because of also having diabetes...which can result in eye problems. When I told him I was withdrawing from ad, he said he had seen a connection between ad and floaters. Perhaps it isn't yet documented and maybe is more common for those of us who are also a bit older.

 

I also had more blurry vision at times, both in distance and close up. But the eye exam showed that nothing had changed in that regard. I suspect it had more to do with perception of the brain. This was similar to what happened after my brain injury. I had difficulty focusing and often had to close one eye, in order to focus..especially as I got more tired. In that case, nothing showed on any eye exam either.

 

Vision problems are yet another symptom sometimes seen with histamine intolerance: http://www.histamine-intolerance.info/

I know you don't want to radically change your diet and things I've read more recently suggest it's better to take a different approach. This woman, who also recovered from meds, suggests only cutting out or reducing most things for 2 weeks, then gradually re-introducing: http://alisonvickery.com.au/histamine-nervous-system/ It is still very individual and takes a lot of trial and error. Dave (ten0275) has seen some improvement since changing his diet. I think he's posted that on his thread

 

I've had good success with taking Vitamin C and quercetin to reduce histamine effects. I recently started tart cherry, so not long enough to see how much it helps. Mood issues are also a part of histamine...the effects are broad and far-reaching.

 

Take care and best of luck with things.

[johnmtz]

John,

 

Sorry things are so rough. I've had problems with vision and hearing through wd. For awhile, I thought I was going deaf. The tinnitus wasn't that bad at that point, but I had to keep turning up the TV to hear..and even then, could not catch a lot of the dialogue. I had trouble hearing conversation if I was in a restaurant or other public place too. That has gone away, thankfully.

 

I had a sudden development of floaters after one cut. I saw a specialist, because of also having diabetes...which can result in eye problems. When I told him I was withdrawing from ad, he said he had seen a connection between ad and floaters. Perhaps it isn't yet documented and maybe is more common for those of us who are also a bit older.

 

I also had more blurry vision at times, both in distance and close up. But the eye exam showed that nothing had changed in that regard. I suspect it had more to do with perception of the brain. This was similar to what happened after my brain injury. I had difficulty focusing and often had to close one eye, in order to focus..especially as I got more tired. In that case, nothing showed on any eye exam either.

 

Vision problems are yet another symptom sometimes seen with histamine intolerance: http://www.histamine-intolerance.info/

I know you don't want to radically change your diet and things I've read more recently suggest it's better to take a different approach. This woman, who also recovered from meds, suggests only cutting out or reducing most things for 2 weeks, then gradually re-introducing: http://alisonvickery.com.au/histamine-nervous-system/ It is still very individual and takes a lot of trial and error. Dave (ten0275) has seen some improvement since changing his diet. I think he's posted that on his thread

 

I've had good success with taking Vitamin C and quercetin to reduce histamine effects. I recently started tart cherry, so not long enough to see how much it helps. Mood issues are also a part of histamine...the effects are broad and far-reaching.

 

Take care and best of luck with things.

Hi freespirit..good to read from you again.  I will try to add C and quercetin. I should be taking C but take other things for eyes and hearing. So I will add that. I should have taken your advice on histamine intolerance. This could be one issue for my eyesight.  It just doesn't make sense otherwise because 5 doctors in two countries can't find anything wrong.  

 

The cornea is a very sensitive organ (window) in our eye and it  is absolutely 100% important that is is clear. Although no one can find corneal haze in my eye, I do have haze. Perhaps is is just in one small spot dead in the centre of my visual axis. In that case, it would be hard to find but have a huge impact in image quality.  If this histamine problem makes the cornea drier, that might be the problem.

 

​This has been so stressful (if I just had the rebound depression it would be ok).  The only good news so far is that I now sleep 6 hours with nothing more than some melatonin spray at night. No drugs.  I'm so happy about that. Now if I can just see so I can drive safely, that would be wonderful.

[johnmtz]

John,

 

Sorry things are so rough. I've had problems with vision and hearing through wd. For awhile, I thought I was going deaf. The tinnitus wasn't that bad at that point, but I had to keep turning up the TV to hear..and even then, could not catch a lot of the dialogue. I had trouble hearing conversation if I was in a restaurant or other public place too. That has gone away, thankfully.

 

I had a sudden development of floaters after one cut. I saw a specialist, because of also having diabetes...which can result in eye problems. When I told him I was withdrawing from ad, he said he had seen a connection between ad and floaters. Perhaps it isn't yet documented and maybe is more common for those of us who are also a bit older.

 

I also had more blurry vision at times, both in distance and close up. But the eye exam showed that nothing had changed in that regard. I suspect it had more to do with perception of the brain. This was similar to what happened after my brain injury. I had difficulty focusing and often had to close one eye, in order to focus..especially as I got more tired. In that case, nothing showed on any eye exam either.

 

Vision problems are yet another symptom sometimes seen with histamine intolerance: http://www.histamine-intolerance.info/

I know you don't want to radically change your diet and things I've read more recently suggest it's better to take a different approach. This woman, who also recovered from meds, suggests only cutting out or reducing most things for 2 weeks, then gradually re-introducing: http://alisonvickery.com.au/histamine-nervous-system/ It is still very individual and takes a lot of trial and error. Dave (ten0275) has seen some improvement since changing his diet. I think he's posted that on his thread

 

I've had good success with taking Vitamin C and quercetin to reduce histamine effects. I recently started tart cherry, so not long enough to see how much it helps. Mood issues are also a part of histamine...the effects are broad and far-reaching.

 

Take care and best of luck with things.

How many mg of C do you take per day?

[freespirit]

I take 600 mg. twice a day. I know some people are taking much higher doses than that. For several reasons, this is an optimal dose for me. Everyone has different opinions on the best form to take. I take Sisu brand Ester-C, because it's what I've been able to tolerate best.

 

Adding quercetin made a big difference. C alone wasn't enough for me. Several times, I've tried cutting back on it, but apparently I still need it. This is the one I take: http://www.canadianvitaminshop.com/Product/Natural-Factors-BIOACTIVE-QUERCETIN-EMIQ

They also make a complex that contains some other things...but I wanted something simple, because of potentials for other allergies.

[johnmtz]

I take 600 mg. twice a day. I know some people are taking much higher doses than that. For several reasons, this is an optimal dose for me. Everyone has different opinions on the best form to take. I take Sisu brand Ester-C, because it's what I've been able to tolerate best.

 

Adding quercetin made a big difference. C alone wasn't enough for me. Several times, I've tried cutting back on it, but apparently I still need it. This is the one I take: http://www.canadianvitaminshop.com/Product/Natural-Factors-BIOACTIVE-QUERCETIN-EMIQ

They also make a complex that contains some other things...but I wanted something simple, because of potentials for other allergies.

Thanks freespirit. I ordered some today and will start that when I get it. I got the 1000mg vit C and 500mg quercetin. I'll take one of those a day and see what happens. Thanks again!

[freespirit]

I really hope it helps you. Are you saying they are a combined supplement or separate ones? If they are separate, you might just try one of them at a time.

 

I've read in a couple of places of people taking large doses of C and being able to eat almost anything, though they identify as having histamine issues. Some folks take them as needed, while some do both regular dosing...plus extra if they develop hives or something else. The few times I've tried more, it didn't help..and in fact, may have made things worse for me. We are all so different..so it's impossible to know what might be right for another person.

 

The difference in taking these wasn't dramatic, but as part of some other changes, made me able to eat a lot of things I couldn't before..and greatly lessened things like nasal symptoms and hives, which used to be constant. Also, at the beginning, I wasn't able to tolerate C in the evening..as it kept me awake. I generally try to take most supplements by lunchtime now...but when I have taken it at dinner recently, it was fine. All trial and error. Good luck.

[johnmtz]

I bought separate vitamins. I will take them with the 10 others I take in the morning. I'm taking so many vitamins now, I don't eat anything but pills for breakfast and a bagel.  I have to take them. Mostly for my eyes and hearing. I'm like you, I don't take anything past lunch time so I pile up at breakfast.

[johnmtz]

Well, here I am still not the man I used to be.  I've been off the poison for what?...3.5 months now. I pretty much sleep ok. But I still have these problems:

 

1. Itching in feet and hands

2. Sun sensitivity on any part of my body

3. Face is sensitive to touch

4. Eyesight still can't see for sh$t. I might need low vision aids if this keeps up.

5. No energy to do anything any more.

6. Loud tinnitus

 

I am taking so many vitamins:

1. inositol

2. vitamin C (high absorbing)

3. DHA/EPA

5. NAC

6. etc and many many others (about 15 pills every morning)

 

I don't even think a taper would have helped. I'm pretty much screwed here folks. This drug is pure evil and I am now a broken down man that barely can support his family.  I wish I could join a class action law suit but this drug is already generic.  I really can't understand why these medical clowns prescribe this stuff with no consideration to all these consequences later down the road.  

 

Unless someone is immediately suicidal, giving someone SSRIs or SNRIs is a stupid idea..Now I AM a candidate for suicide given all my health issues complements of a drug that is supposed to help depression.

 

I see a lot of people suffering here. I sure feel their pain, as it is an injustice that medicine repeatedly cures nothing and at the same time fleeces us out of our money and health with their great "treatments".

 

I sure wish I could go 200 years into the future when all this will be viewed as barbaric treatments akin to blood letting and amputations.

[Altostrata]

When did the itching start?

 

Sometimes people have problems with vitamins, particularly B vitamins, including inositol. If you itching started after you added a supplement, it could be a supplement is involved.

 

As with drugs, change only one supplement at a time, so you can see how it affects you.

 

See this re light sensitiivity: Important topics about symptoms, including sleep problems

[johnmtz]

Well, the itching started when I was taking Mirt and before taping off. So I know it is the mirt. The itching is in the same place and deep under the tissue. I even changed soap thinking that was the problem. Nope..that did not do it. Actually, the supplements did not change any of the symptoms, all of which I had before adding them.

 

inositol does help a little with my tinnitus so I probably should take it. I did have tinnitus before stopping mirt but it got worse while coming off it. So the mirt did not cause the tinnitus only made it worse. I got my tinnitus due to ototoxicity from Ambien 1.5 years ago. Another great drug from hell.

 

I checked the link on sun sensitivity and all I got was it is from the anti histamine affect of AD. Yeah...I kinda figured that. So not much to do there. And it probably is what is causing my decreased vision. It probably is causing me severe dry eye and poor quality tear film. Eye drops are not helping much at all (even the preservative free ones).  And the eye quacks are clueless. But my guess (and it is only a guess) is that the histamine that is causing the sun sensitivity is causing my eye problems. And it is really bad, I have a hard time reading any text....all is blurry. I barely can see what I am typing. Glasses don't help because they work with a healthy eye.

 

So I guess I'll wait and live in my hell. Maybe this will get better. Hope is all I got...but then again...like in Shawshank Redemption when Morgan Freeman says "let me tell you about hope...hope can be a dangerous thing"....I could be hoping for something that will not get better and that will set me up for suicide.

 

 

Thanks

[freespirit]

John,

 

Sorry things are so miserable.

 

I went through similar vision and tinnitus problems when I had the brain injury. No one could figure out the eye issues..the last specialist I saw said the problem was most likely the communication between my eyes and my brain. It took some time, but it eventually went back to normal. The tinnitus also went away, until wd..and now is mostly non-existent. My hearing and vision have both improved over time through wd. I still have floaters, that only bother me when I'm very tired..otherwise, I consider my vision normal. I think my hearing is better than it was while on Remeron...and I'm 10 years older than when I first started taking it.

 

If you believe the problem is with histamine, there are things you can do. You can eat a highly anti-inflammatory diet, use meditation, and do everything you can to lower the inflammation in your body. People with really severe issues, like the low-histamine chef (who no longer believes in low histamine diet) have healed. I'm not 100%, but I'm 1000% better than I was when I quit Remeron. I'm just working on a post to sum up what's changed for me over the past year since I jumped off.

 

Sometimes, we have to do the things we most don't want to do. I was highly resistant about changing my diet, given I already had diabetes, so it was complicated enough. I didn't enjoy eating bland and boring food. But it was one step on the ladder towards healing. I can't eat anything I want yet, but I can eat a lot more than I could last year. I appreciate food a whole lot more. Being able to have some basil and garlic sometimes is heavenly. I'm grateful to be able to digest food again. I no longer have to exercise after every meal in order to do it.

 

I know it's extremely difficult to adjust attitude when everything is so crappy. In the end, I'm the only one who can do anything about this....supplements and alternative practitioners have been of some help....but I can't rely on either to heal me..only to offer some support. I think we each have an inner healer...it's a matter of listening deeply and following that. No one else can do that for us.

The best revenge in my view, is living well to the best of my ability, so I have the least need for doctors or pills.

 

There is a lot of pain on this site...but there are also stories of healing and change. It's a long, slow, extremely difficult process...but possible to come through the other side.

[johnmtz]

Hi Freespirit,

 

It has been 3.5 months now. I guess I was not expecting the WD to be this long but now, as things look, it could easily be a year to recover if not more. Like you said, you are better but not 100% and you've been off over a year now.

I'll try to press on visually disabled as I am. I am watching my diet and I am taking 1.5g of vitamin C with 500mg Quercetin.per day.  I do think the vitamin C is helping with the corneal haze.

This is impacting my life. I have to support a little baby girl and..quite frankly, she is the only thing keeping me from putting a bullet in my head.  This is not living. But I have to keep going for my little girl...that is more potent than any drug.

 

Thanks

[freespirit]

I really feel for you, in supporting a family. I don't know that I'd have been able to do that. On the plus side, your little girl gives you some motivation to keep going.

 

I think it's important to remember that everyone heals differently. You might or might not take as long as I have. My situation is complicated by other health issues, as well as the grief.

 

Hang in there. It does get better. It's awful and painfully slow at times, but things do change. I wouldn't have believed that 6 months ago...but I'm definitely seeing improvement on a lot of fronts through this time. I hope you're able to take care of yourself, as best you can...

 

I'm glad you're getting a little relief with the supplements. Every little bit helps.

[Traveller]

John:

 

You and I sound a lot alike.  I too have a little girl who means the world to me, at least she used to.  That's the thing about serotonin meds; they make you not care about anyone or anything.  Hence the reason why I have discontinued both mirtazapine and SSRIs.  I've been off mirt completely for about 2 weeks, and lexapro for 1.  I struggle majorly with insomnia, concentration, anxiety, and anhedonia.  Even with an Ambien CR and Ativan 0.5mg, I still wake up before 4:00 most nights.  I was not on the drugs nearly as long as you were, but I expect my recovery to take just as long.  It sucks, but it is what it is.

 

We're on opposite sides of the continent, but if I'm ever in Vancouver, you and I should meet for a beer, even if it's non-alcoholic.

[tgirl]

Hello John,

Just checking in to see how your doing?

T

[Traveller]

John, you still there?  I'm now four months off myself, and the pressure in my skull, face, and chest is still unbearable.  If you believe David Sheehan, these are all merely symptoms of endogenous anxiety.  It's hard to know what's a disease and what's withdrawal at this point.

 

Have you seen any improvement?