simack: Trying to taper off antipsychotic's (saphris/zyprexa).

[simack]

Hello all, I'm just checking in again, Things are still going badly for me the moment, I'm still holding my doses trying desperately to stabilize but am having waves of akathisia, anxiety and insomnia still.. I'm deeply troubled by what BTDT posted in response to my post on the limbic kindling thread

 

 

"I can tell you this much the higher the number of stops and starts you have from medications the more likely you are to have withdrawal.  

One wd... done by taper or even ct can often be overcome the more stops and starts you have the more the deck is stacked against you... best scenario one drug short term use never go back... one drug taper never go back."

 

I've made many many stops and starts over the past two years...I'm afraid I'm permanently kindled to the point where this is the best possible outcome I can hope for. I can't taper even slightly now without unbearable akathisia that would surely lead me to suicide. I guess I'm just asking if there is any hope that this situation could resolve for me? I don't have much hope that it will at this point.

[KarenB]

The words quoted above don't actually mean much when you consider that pretty much everyone is here as a result of having done things in other than the optimum way.  We're all on the same road, and most of us are managing to find our way out.  The path can be fairly torturous, with many curves that you can't see around, and so it's easy to lose hope.  But the path does lead us out - even though we have not gone the optimum way. 

 

People's words can affect us a lot.  Perhaps you can find some positive experiences here to note down - words that can lead you forward.  I've noticed that even in threads where a person is struggling they'll often end their post with a positive or accepting note.  Collectively, there is a lot of strength around that you can tap into.

 

You've only been holding for about 3 months.  I'd suggest that you keep holding.  Obviously my situation is different to yours, but I found after holding for 8 months that I started to experience some real stability. 

 

You're not alone Simack,

Karen

[simack]

Hey everyone I could really use some support at the moment, I've hit an incredibly bad wave that I've been in for the past five days.. I haven't changed any doses and the only thing new I tried was one ginkgo tablet six days ago.. I've got terrible internal torment I just can't relax at all it's horrible, I caved in and took 10mg of valium last night because I couldn't sleep.. This only gave me three hours sleep... When I woke I'm right back in the torment.

I'm seriously considering hospitalized myself at this point because I'm having bad si, also I'm back to work tomorrow and have no idea how I'm going to handle it. I have no idea whats causing this wave and just want the internal mental akathisia to stop at any cost

[Shep]

Hi, Simack.

 

I have no idea whats causing this wave and just want the internal mental akathisia to stop at any cost 

 

If you've been in a wave for 5 days and you took ginkgo 6 days ago, then it sounds like the ginkgo is what caused this wave.

 

So definitely avoid ginkgo in the future.  Also, please be very careful with Valium, as dependency on benzos can start in only 2 weeks time.

 

How have you been doing prior to the ginkgo, Simack? This is the first update in nearly a month. Were things going well before this? 

 

 

[simack]

Thanks Shep, will definitely be avoiding ginkgo from now on. Before this wave things have been fairly good with the usual waves and windows. I was having waves of depersonalization and anxiety along with insomnia, but nothing longer than a day or so. I'm also allot more sensitive to caffeine now and can only handle one cup or I get horrible symptoms. I'm Just praying hard that things get better, it's going to be a long time before I'm ready to resume tapering

[Shep]

I think holding for a long time will be good, especially since you were doing so well before the ginkgo. 

 

Actually, I would avoid any and all supplements that you aren't currently taking. It sounds like your nervous system has become quite sensitive and will likely over-react to any new chemicals, no matter how natural they're supposed to be.

 

Please keep us updated. 

[simack]

Thanks, I'm also going to stop using nicotine gum, it helps take the edge off but it's also a stimulant so it can't be helping.. This is the worst wave I've had and it's hit me again today after a great night's sleep..I tried the propranolol out of desperation which has done nothing..Will keep you updated

[simack]

Checking in again and things are still going horrible, I'm having intense relentless inner torment, I hate myself for doing it but I ended up taking 5mg of valium last night to stop the racing paranoid thoughts that were driving me crazy. That makes one night on, one off, and one back on the valium, I'm going to try my hardest not to take anymore for at least a week.. I have work tomorrow and am terrified about how I'm going to handle it... I'm considering hospital although I know it might make me worse.. I'm terrified, this is the worst longest wave I've ever had in my two years of WD add I don't know exactly what's caused it.. I'm praying my hardest things come good soon, fearing for my life

[Shep]

Hi, Simack.

 

I'm sure you already know the problems that can lead with more than two weeks use of Valium or any other benzo, even when taken "as needed". 

 

I really think it was the ginkgo that caused your wave, as you said you're were doing okay before that. 

 

Please try not to "fix" your symptoms with anything more than guided meditations, yoga or other gentle exercise, distractions like tv or video games, etc. 

 

I found that when I fixed one problem with anything more than that, I ended up with other problems. And each time this happens, it causes wear and tear on your already damaged nervous system. 

 

Sending healing vibes your way. 

[simack]

Thanks again Shep, I greatly appreciate your help, I just have a quick question about kindling, does the effect ever reverse or is it permanent?

[simack]

So I've been reading and found that Gingko Biloba inhibits cytochrome P450 metabolism, so effectively increasing my doses of pristiq zyprexa and seroquel.. No wonder I'm in a bad wave, will be heavily researching everything before taking anymore supplements

[simack]

Hey I'm just checking in again, things seem to be settling down a little since my last wave of suicidal akathisia, I'm still having waves of depression hopelessness depersonalization paranoid thoughts etc, but I think my sleeping has settled down. I had a bad wave last week after trialling uridine and CDP choline to combat the side effects of the antipsychotics, the first few days were great and I almost felt like my old self again, but then it turned to depression and anxiety. I'm still holding, but thinking it might be time to resume tapering soon.. I'm afraid that as soon as I make my first cut the suicidal akathisia will return.. But life on the meds is not an option for me... I'm feeling defeated, I don't want to die but suicide is seeming more and more preferable to spending the rest of my days living in this limbo. Especially after reading stories of others who see no improvment 8+ years after they quit... And those who taper successfully only to get hit with tardive withdrawal

[scallywag]

Hey simack, it's good to read that symptoms have eased a bit recently. Sorry you're feeling down-hearted about what's in front of you.

 

You've learned a great deal from your previous tapering -- how fast you can't go, which additions to your taper work and which cause problems. This knowledge will help you as you continue to taper.  From KarenB's signature:

"The possibility of renewal exists so long as life exists." Dr Gabor Mate.

[simack]

Thanks scallywag, things were manageable but now I've gone and ruined things in true simack style again.. Against my better judgement I decided to trial some kratom to help alleviate some of the previous symptoms. I took about 1 teaspoon of a red vein Saturday night thinking it would help me relax, it went fine but when I woke Sunday morning after feeling fantastic for an hour or so I started feeling anxious and had mild depersonalization, I just assumed it was my normal WD symptoms. Today upon waking it was the same felt great then terrible intense anxiety and depersonalization.. I'm heading out of town for work for the week so this couldn't have happened at a worse time. Praying this passes soon, and I'm done with all drugs, natural and pharmaceutical, I have indica MMJ I haven't used yet but I'm destroying it

[simack]

Another update, things keep getting worse for me from here on in, ever since trying Kratom my anxiety has been through the roof, I can't sleep and have been Temazepam which isn't helping. Wishing I never took Kratom now, I'm afraid I'm going to end up hospitalized if things continue this way. Trying to push on and keep working but I don't know how much longer I can operate, I have a constant feeling of paranoia like I'm losing my mind. I don't want to die yet, in very afraid

[Shep]

Hi, Simack.

 

I'm concerned that you're using a benzodiazepine (Temazepam). 

 

Please see this earlier post about your earlier use of Valium:

 

http://survivingantidepressants.org/index.php?/topic/9363-simack-trying-to-taper-off-antipsychotics-saphriszyprexa/?p=262947

 

You were using Valium to help with ginko and now it's Temazepam to help with problems caused by Katrom.

 

You're playing with fire by doing this and I fear for your outcome if you continue going in circles with supplements and then benzos.

 

It's quite clear that your nervous system is just to sensitive to handle supplements. If you don't want to listen to us, please listen to your own nervous system. 

 

It's asking to be nurtured with gentle yoga, mindfulness meditations, quiet walks in nature. 

 

Your mind and body have the ability to heal from this, but please stop sabotaging things. 

 

As a friend of mine from a benzo forum likes to say, "you need to get out of the way and let your mind/body heal."

[simack]

Thanks Shep, yeah I realise I'm going around in circles trying to find the magic supplement that will pull me out of this. I also know I'm playing with fire using benzos and am trying to limit their use as much as possible only taking it in emergencies. Just hoping that I will recover from the Kratom and will keep holding until I'm stable again.. I think I've exhausted every possible supplement imaginable now so all I can do is good and wait

[simack]

An update, things continue to decline at a rapid pace.. I'm kicking myself hard for thinking Kratom was a safe drug to take that would actually help me withdraw from psych meds. I'm trying not to use benzos but the internal akathisia is torturous and unbearable, I caved in and used it last night to sleep. I think I've harmed myself beyond repair this time..... It's been three weeks since trying Kratom and I'm getting worse not better. I'm considering going to hospital but I realise they can't do much to help me. I keep fearing I'm going to end up like bluebalu

[ChessieCat]

What Non-drug techniques are you trying?  Also:

 

Yoga for calming (very simple poses can help greatly)

 

Sleep Hypnosis, Guided Meditations, Calming Videos

 

Claire Weekes' Method of Recovering from a Sensitized Nervous System

[simack]

Thanks for the advice Chessie I greatly appreciate it and realise that I only have myself to blame for this mess. I'm not employing any non drug techniques at the moment but am going to read through the links you posted and give them a try. I only have one more day of work to survive before the weekend so I've given the benzos to a family member to hold so I don't have easy access to them, also I've eliminated all forms of caffeine from my diet. Praying to stabilise soon

[simack]

Hey everyone, the last two days have been slightly better than the past week, my anxiety is still there in the background but it's manageable, I did also manage to sleep last night without using benzos so I'm hoping that it will continue. Is it a good sign that I'm seeing Mini windows? I'm still having allot of fear that this wave will not pass and be permanent. I'm trying some non drug calming techniques to help distract from catastrophising things

[ChessieCat]

If you are still taking ashwaghanda and still not improving you may want to consider stopping the ashwaghanda.  I think I've given you this info before but I will give it again.

 

From:  ashwagandha - Post #5: 

 

"I used to take ashwaganda daily...it's one of many supplements that went south on me...it's now agitating and very unpleasant...just FYI"

[simack]

Hey Chessie, I'm still not improving so I'm considering stopping the ashwaghanda, would you recommend I try tapering off it since it interacts with Gaba receptors in some way? Also I started taking 2mg of inositol daily about a week before trying Kratom and crashed, should I stop that also? Appart from that my only supplements are fish oil, magnesium and melatonin

[ChessieCat]

If you don't think the inositol is causing any issues, then I would probably concentrate on getting off the ashwaghanda.  I've just done a google search on how to taper it but I wasn't able to find much information.  I think it would be sensible to reduce it gradually, but I've no idea by how much or for how long.

[simack]

Thank you Chessie, I'm currently tapering ashwaghanda by 1/2 a tablet every two weeks and so far so good. A little update, and a question. The past week has seen the intense anxiety-mental akathisia subside greatly for me, so I'm incredibly thankful for that. However I have a worrying new symptom that has emerged, and was hoping for some insight on how to cope/manage with it.

 

Ever since trying Kratom I've been having somewhat random episodes of feelings of paranoia about being paranoid, it's hard to describe but it feels like I'm on the verge of having a psychotic breakdown but never do.eg. When I see things out of the corner of my eye, I might think there's something abnormal there, but on second glance I've realise that's there's not.. normally this wouldn't bother me but now it's sending me into a panic thinking I'm about to lose it.

 

Along with this, some nights when trying to sleep I've been experiencing super rapid, random, uncontrolled thoughts racing through my head making sleep impossible.

 

They seem to be coming more frequent. I have noticed they seem to be triggered mostly by caffeine, this has lead me into worrying that I may have developed a supersensitivity to dopamine, which can happen during extended antipsychotic treatment, the results being what they call "breakthrough psychosis" and can be permanent. Basically I'm worried that the antipsychotics have caused my brain to upregulate and supersensitize my dopamine receptors irreversibly, and I'm on the verge of having a psychotic break

[Shep]

Ever since trying Kratom I've been having somewhat random episodes of feelings of paranoia about being paranoid, it's hard to describe but it feels like I'm on the verge of having a psychotic breakdown but never do.eg. When I see things out of the corner of my eye, I might think there's something abnormal there, but on second glance I've realise that's there's not.. normally this wouldn't bother me but now it's sending me into a panic thinking I'm about to lose it.

Along with this, some nights when trying to sleep I've been experiencing super rapid, random, uncontrolled thoughts racing through my head making sleep impossible.

They seem to be coming more frequent. I have noticed they seem to be triggered mostly by caffeine, this has lead me into worrying that I may have developed a supersensitivity to dopamine, which can happen during extended antipsychotic treatment, the results being what they call "breakthrough psychosis" and can be permanent. Basically I'm worried that the antipsychotics have caused my brain to upregulate and supersensitize my dopamine receptors irreversibly, and I'm on the verge of having a psychotic break

 

 

Hi, simack.

 

I have a long history of what psychiatrists label "psychosis", but I prefer the term "extreme state". 

 

Here are some thoughts:

 

Once I read Robert Whitaker's "Anatomy of an Epidemic" and then found the online support forums, I gained insight into my hallucinations and other symptoms. This insight let me step back from them instead of engaging with them.

 

It's not really the visual or audio hallucination that is an element of psychosis, but rather, your reaction to it.

 

Instead of - "I see this person, animal, object, etc. in the corner of my eye, I must be going crazy!"  Replace that with, "There's something moving in the corner of my eye. That's interesting." And then simply let the audio or visual hallucination pass as if it were an intrusive thought. My favorite mindfulness teacher, Mooji, says, "My thoughts are just visitors and I am NOT a hotel. Let those thoughts pass by." By not engaging in these thoughts or hallucinations, you take away their power. Just let them pass with curiosity. 

 

Let these episodes be a training ground where you learn to replace the fear with curiosity. After all, this free acid trip is nothing more than the residual effects of psychiatric drugs. Nothing more. Just an odd sideshow that appears from time to time.  Why get upset about it? They won't hurt you. 

 

As far as it being permanent, that is something that came out of the biochemical model of psychiatry. But our brains are neuro-plastic and can be remodeled and healed after we come off these drugs. It's the drugs that are toxic to the brain, not psychosis. 

 

In retrospect, I noticed that it was my behavior surrounding my hallucinations that got me drugged, not the hallucinations themselves. Now I simply let them pass without giving them much notice. 

 

This came about with a lot of mindfulness study and training. I would encourage you to listen to some mindfulness videos and see if this helps you, too. Some great mindfulness teachers on YouTube are Dr. Jon Kabat-Zinn, Mooji, Tara Brach, Eckhart Tolle, and there are many others. 

 

There are also resources on mindfulness in the non-drug coping skills section:

 

Non-drug coping skills

 

 

 

I have noticed they seem to be triggered mostly by caffeine,

 

 

 

You may need to stop consuming caffeine. I gave it up several years ago and replaced it with a very strong peppermint oil tea.  Perhaps you can find an alternative, too. 

[simack]

Thank you Shep, I greatly appreciate your help and time. I will put into practice some of the methods​ you mentioned, and try and step back from them and accept them for what they are without engaging with the thoughts. I'm also switching to decaf

[simack]

Hey everyone, hope you are all holding up ok. Checking in again, I'm 11 weeks past having an adverse reaction to kratom now and still suffering from it. The symptoms aren't as intense as previously but are still very unsettling.
 I'm having waves of intense paranoia that feels as if I'm about to have a psychotic meltdown, horrible feelings of doom and terror when trying to sleep and insomnia...
 I'm unsure what to do from here, I am considering resuming tapering again this weekend, I'm still on 100mg pristiq, 3.85mg Olanzapine and 50mg of seroquel, I don't know if I will heal much more if I continue to hold and wait at this point.
 I'm also afraid the longer I hold the more damage I'm doing and the harder it will be to withdraw in the future.
 I really want the antipsychotics out of my body as I'm so tired of living like a lobotomised zombie, I'm liquid titrating the Olanzapine and thinking of maybe a -.05mg cut every two weeks..The problem is that every time in the past I have tried to cut it triggers horrific suicidal akathisia. I'm hoping this will be a gentle enough taper to avoid it .

[scallywag]

Simack, You wrote:

 

"I'm also afraid the longer I hold the more damage I'm doing and the harder it will be to withdraw in the future."

 

It's a difficult place you're in, having destabilized yourself by taking kratom you've had to hold on your olanzapine dose.  Now, you're facing a choice: continue to hold to allow yourself more time to recover OR restart the taper.  Another few months at your current dose of olanzapine is unlikely to make much difference in the long run but is likely to make things better over the short term.

 

What has been happening with your symptoms over the last 11 weeks?  What is your current symptom pattern, if any? 

[simack]

Hey scallywag, my current symptoms are quite unpredictable in that I'm having waves and windows, I never quite know what to expect each day as it's constantly changing.

My main symptoms seem to be dp/dr, brain zaps, the paranoia and feeling of Doom and terror when trying to sleep.

I did have intense anxiety at first which has thankfully resolved.

[scallywag]

We suggest holding at times when your symptoms change dramatically from day to day.  Sometimes it takes several months after a "bounce" like the one you took.  I hope you'll keep in mind that your symptoms are most likely withdrawal symptoms and can't really be helped by any substance -- manufactured pharmaceutical, natural or recreational -- and are likely to be worsened.

[KarenB]

Hi Simack, just popping in to say that I did a long hold (8 months) and it worked wonders for me.  Totally worth it, in terms of getting stabilised, and also in being able to engage in some more normal life and normal feelings again.  

[simack]

Ok thanks scallywag and karenB, im going to hold a while longer. Against my best judgment and out of desperation I tried a different brand of cbd oil last night. I didn't notice anything from it but today upon waking my symptoms have returned to full strength. Yeah I know it was stupid as there is no supp or med to shortcut our way out of this, but it was the last supplement on my list to try.

I know I'm sensitive to everything now and time ous the only thing that's going to heal me, I just didn't expect such an adverse reaction to something I could tolerate previously and hope i haven't pushed my cns over the edge.

I have managed to quit the ashwaghanda and the only supps im taking now is fish oil and magnesium

[simack]

Hey I just wanted to update again, I'm very very lost as to what to do. I'm so severely kindled, I can't handle even the slightest change in any doses. I think I might be suffering from dopamine supersensitivity from being on two antipsychotics... I'm having increasing feelings of paranoia and inner torment. I'm scarred the longer I stay on them the worse it will become. I can't taper off these meds and I definitely can't quit them because I get suicidal akathisia... I spoke to an addiction specialist and their only idea was rehab which entailed ct ing my meds and propping me up with benzos... So no help at all...I feel so stuck

[simack]

Hey every one hope your all ok, I need some advice after I made a blunder yesterday night taking my olanzapine. I ended up accidentally taking double my dose as I was distracted then couldn't remember if I had taken it or not... Anyway I  decided to go back to my normal dose last night hoping things would settle... Unfortunately I have been hit with complete insomnia, a symptom I thought had passed... What I'm asking is should I continue to hold at this dose tonight and pray for the best? Or try a little updose to regain my sleep? I've worked hard to get down to where I am over the past two and a half years... Would be devastated to lose that progress over one mistake

[bhasski]

Nothing will happen and you are as good on your progress. It was a short temporary body's reaction on the action of double dosage.... but  it will get back to your present state.

 

Wishing things get better as early.