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uncomfortablynumb

uncomfortablynumb: Withdrawal Symptoms or Anxiety/Depression

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KarenB

As uncomfortable as it is, six weeks is a relatively short time.  Your CNS has been through a lot, and therefore needs a lot of time to repair and stabilise.  Just keep everything as stable as possible because this helps it to recover better, and especially don't give it another SSRI.  It's a waiting game (and I know that's not easy).  I've read on s/a many times how people regretted trying to treat w/d symptoms with further meds. 

 

This week I've been having some success learning to go off to sleep by meditating.  In fact I'd say it's the most useful sleep tool I've found so far (though my sleep issues have only been minor).  I do it by imagining myself in any other part of my body than my head, then I imagine floating off along the ocean then out into space, just drifting, with each part of me relaxed and floaty.  I keep myself in my body rather than my head because that seems to stop bothersome thoughts happening.

 

Hang in there...

KarenB

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Mort81

Hey Numb my weakness/fatigue I think was caused by a few things. I wasnt able to eat food for 3 months and lost tons of weight. I also wasn't sleeping well and I tried to save my job so I was regularly attending work during the first 5 or 6 months. It was also a physically demanding job. Also the stress and suffering of not knowing what was going on completely broke me down. Seeing all the doctors and tests and just watching my life fall apart basically. I think I hit a hard wall. I still stress out about not being able to attend work and perhaps losing my Job. I also sometimes stress out about what people think and all types of life situations. I think if I let go of all those attachments I will heal faster.

 

 

I dont know what to say about the sleep thing because for me leaving work allowed me to sleep. I no longer had to wake up at 7 am so even if i didn't sleep for 24 hours I would be okay to sleep for the whole day. I only started to sleep than maybe 7 months into WD because I slept at all hours of the day. Picking up sleep whenever I could. I am assuming when I start to gain strength and feel better I can than begin to push myself to do things off no sleep. Do you still have a schedule with clients or other things? Or can you sleep during the day if you need too? Or you can't sleep at all?

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uncomfortablynumb

Hi Mort,

Sorry for the delay - had a super-rough week. I am not working now and don't have a schedule. Sleep was impossible. I just couldn't fall asleep no matter how hard I tried. I was getting sicker and sicker from lack of sleep and was dry-heaving regularly. I had to give in and try the Remeron. It worked and totally makes you feel drunk. Now I have to figure a way to get off this slowly.

I am scared my sleep has been totally screwed. And now I wonder how I am going to recover and be drug-free. :(

 

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Mort81

No problem Numb I had a horrible week myself even has me thinking of reinstating again. Are you gonna stay on the Remeron to stabilize? If it worked I guess thats great. Sleep is so important.

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uncomfortablynumb

Hey Mort,

Sorry to hear you had a terrible week as well. What are you experiencing? You are thinking of reinstating after this far out?

I really don't know what the long term plan is with the Remeron. It is helping with sleep now. But I need to get back to healthy functioning. There must be some people in the same boat. I would like to know what the best plan of action would be now.

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Mort81

 Thanks Numb, I had bad Askathesia and it ramped up all my other symptoms. So my gut was wrecked and I had no strength to walk . Loud ringing in my ears , dizzyness you name it. I was housebound all week pretty much. I was thinking of reinstating 1mg but I am too terrified of a negative reaction .I can handle what is being thrown at me now , sure Im not functional yet but I dont think I can handle anything worse. Sure enough today I woke up feeling better than I have in awhile. Took a long walk to the park and sat in the sun for half an hour. So hopefully a nice bright big window is opening up.

 

There are lots of people in both our situations right now and its never an easy decision what to do because we are so fragile., I think if the remeron is working for you than maybe stay on it for a while too see if you can stabilize on it . Maybe just the small dose will work .If your sleep has improved already thats a good sign. What dose are you on ? Did it help relieve any other symptom or just the sleep ? I dont know much about it . Im assuming most AD are somewhat similiar .

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KarenB

Hello Uncomfortablynumb,

 

Not getting enough sleep can really mess with you huh? 

 

Remeron is an anti-depressant, and as such it needs careful tapering just like all the others - so it might complicate things for you long-term.  How you stop it will depend on how much Remeron you've taken.   Updating your signature with these details will help us figure the next steps. 

 

Sometimes we have to just 'ride-out' sleep issues or use whatever non-drug methods give us a little relief.  Your sleep will not be permanantly 'screwed', it will heal as the rest of you does.   

 

My feeling is that your body has been through so much up-and-down-dosing that your final drop to 0 was too much for it, and so you've had horrible w/ds.  For that reason you might consider reinstating Effexor.  At about 7 weeks out, reinstatement could go either way - good results or bad.  You could re-read the reinstatement thread and see what you think about reinstating a very small amount which might help to relieve your symptoms.  No guarantees.

 

If that doesn't seem like a good idea, the best you can do is to build up all the non-drug methods you can and ride this out. 

 

Have a mull over it all, and let us know what you think,

KarenB

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uncomfortablynumb

Hi Mort,

You seriously go through definite windows and waves. A tease, but hope. Glad you had a window and got out after a rough week. Remeron only helped for sleep and nothing else. And it isn't great sleep bc you wake up so groggy and more dizzy through most of the day.

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uncomfortablynumb

Hi Karen,

It was brutal and severe insomnia. It became a desperate situation. I took 15mg for two nights and went down to 7.5m for a night. The plan is to get off it.

 

I tried reinstating 37.5mg of Effexor a couple of weeks ago with no immediate relief. I only did it for a day. I gave up. Maybe I should have gone with a lower dose. What do you think? Not sure what to do.

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Fresh

Hiya uncomfortablynumb ,    

If you continue the remeron you'll still have w/d symptoms from effexor , and you'll have another med to taper.

 

Have you read the thread on reinstating?   The recommended starter dose is 1-2mg , to see how you tolerate it.

A big dose like 37.5 could well give you a whole new bunch of symptoms from being too much.  

You need to give the reinstatement at least 4-7 days on that dose , then think about increasing if need be. That's the safe way to do it.  

 

See 

About reinstating and stabilizing to reduce withdrawal symptoms

 and

 

How to make a liquid from tablets or capsules

 

Best wishes ,  Fresh

 

(Btw , at 7 weeks out the chance of it being successful is excellent , and you could be saving yourself

months , perhaps years , of recovery time.)

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KarenB

Hi Karen, It was brutal and severe insomnia. It became a desperate situation. I took 15mg for two nights and went down to 7.5m for a night. The plan is to get off it. I tried reinstating 37.5mg of Effexor a couple of weeks ago with no immediate relief. I only did it for a day. I gave up. Maybe I should have gone with a lower dose. What do you think? Not sure what to do.

Hey Numb,

 

That's a particularly tough situation you've been in.  Regarding the Effexor, I think it would be worth reinstating a small amount- as Fresh said maybe 1-2mg, and give it 4 days minimum to take effect.  If it does work then your sleep will hopefully settle a little along with the rest of your symptoms. 

 

I'm going to ask another mod to advise on the Remeron.

 

Hang in there, we'll find a way through it.

KarenB

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Altostrata

....

I am not going to follow the 10% drop rule. Hopefully that decision doesn't bite me in the ass. Does this just lessen withdrawal suffering or does it slow the remodelling process?

 

 

Welcome, UncomfortablyNumb.

 

Sleep disruption is a very, very common consequence of going off psychiatric drugs too fast. As Petunia suggested, you might go back on a very small amount of Effexor, even 10 beads, to reduce this symptom.

 

Sleep problems alone may have a lot to do with your current symptomology.

 

As for the depression and sluggishness, my intuition is that you have a metabolic problem, possibly related to some extreme supplementing or other practice. If I were you, I'd review all the supplements, vitamins, etc. that you take and gradually minimize them to eliminate confounding factors.

 

If you have been prone to taking stimulating substances, they could not only be putting your system into overdrive but contributing to your sleep problems.

 

This can also be a consequence of taking antidepressants for a long time and going on and off drugs many times. The nervous system is not made of rubber, it gets fatigued.

 

Given you are very experienced with self-discipline, I believe that if you focus on gently nurturing your nervous system, you will gradually recover. Being gentle is essential -- no extreme supplementing. Get your nutrition from food. Don't try to push your body in a particular direction.

 

....

I decided to reinstate the 37.5mg. Maybe I should have gone with less because I am feeling crappy and like a zombie anyway.

 

....

 

I did reinstate but for only one day. It made me feel even more horrid so I backed out. Ughh. Do you think some symptoms might ease anytime soon?

 

uncomfortablynumb, you are experiencing the results of going off Effexor too fast.

 

We've given you this topic to read several times About reinstating and stabilizing to reduce withdrawal symptoms

 

Also read What is withdrawal syndrome?

 

The Windows and Waves Pattern of Stabilization

 

My guess is your best bet now is to reinstate 10 beads of Effexor XR, as soon as possible. The 37.5mg you took before was too strong for you.

 

I would stop experimenting with other drugs such as Remeron. This is making the uproar in your nervous system worse.

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uncomfortablynumb

Fresh, Karen and Alto - thanks for your time and care. If you can help me through this I will be eternally grateful. Feeling very lost and scared. My depression and anxiety are severe. I can hardly function. Thoughts and feelings seem non-existent. I can't socialize - I have been silenced. It is so uncomfortable! I can't even cry for release.

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uncomfortablynumb

I am desperate to get better. Doc wants to try diff meds or a cocktail or TMS. I don't want to go that route. The unknown side effects and poop-out are big problems. Not to mention withdrawal. So, I am going to reinstate the Effexor at 10 beads. I was only on Remeron for 4 days, last 2 days at 7.5mg. Should I drop to 3.75mg or stop?

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Petunia

You could drop to 3.75mg for one day and then stop, or just stop now. I don't think its going to make a great deal of difference. Your nervous system has been shaken up by all these changes and its going to take a while to settle down again. It may also take a while to stabilize on the 10 beads, you will need to be patient.

 

Please read through the links Alto posted for you, so you know what to expect.

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uncomfortablynumb

How long should it take to know if adding the 10 beads will help to settle down my symptoms? What do I do if that fails?

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dalsaan

I would give it a couple of weeks and start with the assumption that it will work. Exploring the prospects of failure isn't productive. You add stress to your nervous system and undermine your chances of stability. This provides you with a good opportunity to practice managing your thoughts rather than letting them run free to whatever dark place they care to take you.

 

 

Dalsaan

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Fresh

Like Dalsaan says , you'll need to give it a few weeks.  

Bear in mind you've just had a Remeron assault , and that takes a while to recover from too.

It takes 4 days for the Effexor to get to a steady-state in your blood stream.

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btdt

I would give it a couple of weeks and start with the assumption that it will work. Exploring the prospects of failure isn't productive. You add stress to your nervous system and undermine your chances of stability. This provides you with a good opportunity to practice managing your thoughts rather than letting them run free to whatever dark place they care to take you.

 

 

Dalsaan

I agree., do this meditation as many times as you need to or find others that work for you if this one doesn't deep states of relaxation ... this was the first step to my recovery the first iota of a hint of healing... 

 

 

If it does not work you will decide from that point what to do give wks at least it takes a long to get stable. 

If all else fails you can survive cold turkey it is hell yes it is but it did not kill me so chances are it won't kill you that is the worst for those who need to know it so they can move on. 

now watch that video 

 

I wish you peace

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JanCarol

Hey UN

 

I was a fitness trainer for a year, too! Back in the 90's.  I was corporate - worked for a corporation with a gym, setting up programs for employees to reach their goals - whether it was bodybuilding, weight loss, or stress reduction.  A little more flexible than the traditional personal trainer.  I don't think I could do the relentless personal trainer gig - it's like being a "slave with a smile!" - but I have a dear friend in the US who is an excellent mature-aged trainer who caters to different abilities and physiques quite nicely. 

 

A few things came to me while reading your thread.  The first that may be of help to you is this link:  Is It Withdrawal or Relapse? Or Something Else?

 

So, you had a day on 37.5 mg.  Please do us mods a favor and tidy up your signature.  Please give us the date you tried the 37.5 mg.  Please give us the dates that you tried the 7.5 mg Remeron.  And please tell us if you have indeed, reinstated 10 beads or 1-2 mg of Effexor.

 

If you have, how is that working for you?  Please let us know?  Not only does it help us to help you - but it helps us to help others when we see, case after case, what works, what doesn't, and to maybe parse out the whys and wherefores of it.

 

* * *

 

Mort wrote on your thread:

So I thought that if your near me you could see this Pychologist because he is very aware of all the issues we face on here and  he could provide a diagnosis for your Doctors so that everyone is on the same page and treating your symptoms as WD.

 

This is actually quite wise advice, and has been key to my ability to convince my p-doc to reduce my drugs.

 

My psychologist can write wise, professional letters about my progress, and rave about how well I am doing on reduced drugs (and she does write these things on my behalf), and what can the p-doc do?  Here is a professional opinion which states I'm doing "so well" that the p-doc complies with what I request.

 

In your case, having a psychologist who believes in withdrawal (my psychologist read "Mad In America" and went to hear Whitaker speak personally!), can help him/her make a case to your prescriber about "drugs too stimulating" or "withdrawal."  Hearing it from a professional is quite different for the p-doc than to hear it from the patient who "read something on a website." It's hard for p-docs to get around the substantialness and in-depth nature of SA, so they often blow off this thing called "Peer support."  My own P-doc looked at a thing I brought her from Will Hall, and said, "who is this guy?  Just some guy?  What are his qualifications?" while I stammered something about peer support (Will has since gotten qualifying degrees) as she sneered.

 

Having any professional on your side, in your team - even if they are not a prescriber - is amazingly helpful.

 

Please see:  What Should I Expect From My Doctor About Withdrawal Symptoms? to see what other SA'rs have experienced with their doctors.  Prescribers are trained in schools which have been bought and paid for by the pharmaceutical industry, and they have been wined, dined, and gotten their CME credits from the same.  They really believe they are doing what is best for you, but also tend to discount you in the process.

 

You asked Mort:

How was your anxiety and depression before meds? Mine was due to stress from university. and Mort answered:

 

And Mort answered:

I think alot of young people get misdiagnosed  . Its not easy fitting in or trying to figure out your life when your 16-30 . 

 

...and I think there is greater pressure to figure it out and "succeed" than ever before.  It is harder to climb the ladder than it was in the 50's, 60's and 70's, and so many people  - even with university degrees - are stuck in underemployment.  But that's politics….

 

Many of us have some form of spiritual emergency at university.  It is the first time in our life that we are on our own as far as our identity and choices are concerned, and sometimes it can be overwhelming.  Additionally, it seems that Gen X, Y and Z are less well prepared for the independence that university requires https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/freedom-learn/201509/declining-student-resilience-serious-problem-colleges

 

But even before these Gens, the "spiritual emergency" of university independence threw many of us Baby Boomers into the psych system, too.  You are lucky it stopped at "anxiety and depression." (many get documented with "psychosis.") The dangerous side of these - is that most of these emergencies are about skills that need to be learned - and if you are numbed on the drugs, the lessons about living, identity and independence get stifled - and you will still need to learn them as you come off the drugs.

 

Again, please let us know if you have done a reinstatement, and how that is working for you.  You may be surprised at how a little of the "hair of the dog that bit you" will take the edge off of symptoms.

 

I hope you see the sun today.

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uncomfortablynumb

btdt - thanks for the meditation thing.  If it can help at all with sleep that would be great.  

 

JanCarol - I agree, it would be better to have a doctor experienced with withdrawal problems.  It would feel more reassuring.   

 

Questions - I cannot fall asleep.  For the last two months I have not had much sleep at all.  What can I do?  Is my "sleep center" destroyed?   I don't know how long I can go without sleep.  Not sure if I can die.  But my functioning is diminishing by the day.  Please help.  

 

My vision and hearing is altered.  It is kind of like being in a fishbowl.  I noticed this the most hearing running water.  Throws the balance off. Is this depersonalization?  Nerve damage?  Both?  Do I need to see a neurologist or get MRI or EEG

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uncomfortablynumb

Another question - Does the ability to feel joy, genuinely smile,laugh,cry and love come back? If you experienced this loss of emotion, how long until you felt signs of it returning?

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Mort81

 Hey Numb I dont think anything is destroyed , its just on vacation and your battling through it . The sleep has to come back. It will do so probably slowly. I hope sooner rather than later but I cant guarantee its soon. What I can guarantee is that it will come back at some point.  The hearing or visual disturbances seem common around here. I have  tinnutus come and go , it sounds like a T.V is left on and I hear the static fairly loudly. I got lots of vertigo that comes and goes as well . DP i have read around here is quite common aswell . All these things fade in time, If a test would make you feel better to rule things than go for it. 

 

The ability to laugh , cry and feel emotions comes back . For me I have latley started to be able to experiece way more happy emotions. I had a horrible month but the last week has been my best to date. I wasnt even thinking about WD the last 4 days or so. Everything comes back ! Hang in there numb , everyday brings you closer to feeling better.

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btdt

What Mort says about is all true..... sleep is a good thing and something we don't appreciate like we should till we don't have it.

 

My experience.... 

 

@ 4 days with no sleep I would get a bit crazy but by the 4th day my system would usually give out and I would sleep. Now there are many other things between sleeping well and 4 days with no sleep. 

 

Advice if you can't sleep lay down and let your body rest it is almost as good as sleep ... don't stress about it there isn't a thing you can do about it anyway and I doubt anyone has ever died from lack of sleep unless it had something to do with the going mad around day 4 bit....

 

if you there the mad day 4 bit write back... 

 

if your not there yet 

your still good stressing about it helps nothing and just makes your life worse... try not to stress if that means watching relaxation videos constantly ... hey there are worse things... 

 

look up tapping here and try that too. 

there is one on utube called tapping for insomnia

I wish you peace

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uncomfortablynumb

Hi Mort and btdt,

I have gone 4 days with an hour of sleep or two. In a week, I will get a handful of hours of sleep. This has been going on since October. The Remeron did put me to sleep well at 15mg but I felt so groggy.

Mort, thanks for your reassurance. I wish I was where at your point in recovery. It is good your vertigo comes and goes. I am constantly dizzy. I am like a broken record and can only really talk about the suffering.

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uncomfortablynumb

Btdt,

Where are you in recovery now btw?

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SquirrellyGirl

Numb,

 

Things have gotten slightly better, though still far from where I was prior to medications.  I believe part of it is actual cognitive issues directly related to the medication and part of it is caused by the ensuing anxiety and depression.  I would even say that most of my anxiety and depression is being driven by my cognitive issues.  As a distraction from it, I started using a App called Elevate which has various games that are supposed to develop and maintain overall cognitive abilities. 

 

 

IHadPassion, I can totally relate to what you wrote.   I used to be a Sudoku addict several years ago, while on meds, and even then I felt my brain just didn't work right.  I recently took it up again, on a site where you could check yourself against everyone else.  I came up with 87% of players doing better than me, over and over!

 

I used to work in a lab, haven't for about four years, but my husband does and a couple of months ago he let me help him one weekend.  It was a matter of counting cells on a slide using a microscope.  I had so much trouble keeping track of what I had already counted, it took me about 10 times longer to get the job done than it took him!  It was really kind of frightening!  I told him perhaps I ought not do this!

 

I raise sheep and work them with my dogs.  One evening I threw hay out in several piles and the sheep came up to eat, milling around, changing which pile they were eating from.  I wanted to count them, but simply couldn't organize in my mind who I had already counted and had to give up.  They do not all look alike, BTW, different sizes and colors rather than all being uniform. This probably would have been hard for well people, too, but it caused me such confusion, I felt like I was getting mired in tar mentally!  The only way I can count my sheep is to run them single file through a sorting gate!

 

I certainly feel my vision has gotten way worse, more so than perhaps aging should cause, and my hearing is poor as well. I've read of people coming out of withdrawal declaring that they had such mental clarity, were able to see better, colors brighter, feeling better than they ever have in their life, and I am sure hoping that will be the case for me!  For all of us!

 

SG

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Mort81

Im sorry about the sleep thing numb, it sounds like your sleep  is as heavy as my Gut pain was . I wish there was a magic solution but time is the only thing that will heal you unless reinstatement  works. Did  the effexor help ?  You may recover much quicker than me its very possible.  I know how you feel its so hard to ride the wave when things suck!  I always said and I still do say this , I wish I could speed up time !  

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Mort81

It seems like we all get hammered with about 10-20 symptoms but 1 or 2 stick out and can be draining pretty much disabling us! This will change throughout WD . Can you imagine if our docs knew or told us this could happen after long term use? would anybody ever take this stuff ? holy crap .

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btdt

Btdt, Where are you in recovery now btw?

That is a really good question I don't know how to answer just now. If you were to read my thread you would see no antidepressant drug has passed my lips since Nov 17 2007 ;**** I missed an anniversary while I had not computer....8 years pill free now!  

 

What was that term wd sites debate... hmm I can't think if it just now it is only 5am been up since around 3 still my brain does not want to work yet. 

 

There is some terminology here to discuss but apparently I am unable to do that just now and will get back to you. 

 

One hour sleep in 4 days is one hours sleep... it all counts be sure to keep shooting for the deep relaxation... I can get more renewal from 30 min deep relaxation than I get from 4 hours of sleep. The first dawning of this came from not being able to tolerate light or sound... I have street noise to drown it out I put on a cd of the ocean thinking the monotony of it would be better the cars ect.... did a 45 degree thing on my painful back with pills the room was a dark as I could make it without tinfoiling the the windows... I had a mircrowavable heat pad on my spine cause it hurt .... ( I later learned in one of those now 404 articles I am famous for finding that heat on the spine increases norepinephrine in your body)  cool eh.   

 

That was the scene of my first break... real break almost inperceptable f.....wish I could spell I use to .. figure it out I have not patients yet still coming down off my prednisone deal ... should likely not even be on here ...good the bad the ugly I show up... thing I wanted to say... 

 

one more thing... 

if you really are too dizzy to walk... two things I found helpful 

baby's electorlite replacement they sell it at shoppers in 4 packs... yep I would have been the lady chugging outside the shoppers door like an addict... 

it is called pedialite 

thing two if your out and need to be not dizzy to get home...

childs gravol... 

I AM NOT A PILL ADVOCATE AND SUSPECT ANYTHING YOU PUT IN YOU WILL PAY FOR.... LOW LOW DOSE EVERYTING!

BUT since dizzy is your deal and this does help... there it is. take 1/4 of the child dose wait 30 min before taking any more... it took me years to get to a place where I could tolerate an entire child dose of gravol and now that is what I use when I am really puking type sick an adult dose is still unthinkable. 

 

It may help with sleeping some but don't push it ... do not push it your body is trying to heal this is just another type of antihistamine at a very low dose... 

antidepressants base drug it was developed from was an antihistamine... so this and benadryl any of them are playing with a bit of fire ... 

 

I have told a few people about this but I don't think they could be kids gravol where  they live it is cherry flavour and very tempting to gobble up. ....

 

I am not sure about the benadryl if you have tried it or not... but if you have ...maybe I should wait for you to say if you have or not... 

I will say when I was in the 4 day no sleep realm 1/3 bit of benadryl was what I did when I was getting too crazy losing reality.... cause of sleep deprivation and I always felt it set me back.. sure I got to rest but like rolling backwards down a hill ... I would just have to climb the hill again later... 

 

there I hope that is as clear as mud... think I need a nap 

peace

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uncomfortablynumb

The reinstatement has not helped after a week. The insomnia is killing me. How can the brain heal when I am not sleeping? I can't fall asleep. Using tips to no avail I am not getting the sensation of nodding off.

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Fresh

Hi UC . . .did you get any relief from the 10 beads of effexor started on 4 December?

 

As you didn't have an adverse reaction , you might think about increasing the dose.  

It's okay to go up slowly , giving each updose a good week or so , till you find a level

that makes a dent in your symptoms.  Remember , 10 beads is a tiny amount.  I'd be going

up to 20 beads.

 

Fresh

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uncomfortablynumb

How long do you updose? At what point do you deem an updose futile? I want to avoid prolonging the misery as much as possible.

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Fresh

You'll notice the difference when it begins to kick in . . . it's different for everyone.

Of course you want to be better asap , we all do.  But you saw what happened when you took a too-big

dose , so we need to avoid that.  

This is the time to do ANYthing to distract yourself , to help the time pass.  And try to eat regularly , even if

you don't feel like it.  Your body needs all the nutrition it can get.

 

Many people find magnesium helpful for it's relaxing properties , have you tried that yet?

 

:)

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btdt

Yes magnesium is good but in the stage your in grind it up and put it in water and sip it... too much mag can be as bad as none...or worse. 

 

This great idea came from Alto in the old days...;) 

 

Even when your not sleeping you can heal what needs to be healed... have you looked at the rubics cube idea of healing... I have searched for the video today and I cannot find it.. it is the best... maybe some other person can find it for you as it explains wd in the rubic sense that we all experience it as... 

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