success ☼ elbee: 25 years of meds

[elbee]

Today has been a bit rough with some flu like symptoms - feel feverish with no fever, body aches but no chills, kinda groggy and out of it. I'm assuming this has to do with yesterday's Z drop I did. But I was also up late last night, who knows. We'll see how it goes over the next few days. I'd really like to be able to hold at this spot for a while, or even begin a regular schedule of the 10% drop every 4-6 weeks. But I also know better now not to try and rush.

[elbee]

I still haven't been feeling all that great since my last drop, but I do feel like things are mellowing out at times. I'm leaving Colorado for California tomorrow (continuing my road trip) for a one week silent meditation retreat. I've done a week long meditation retreat before, and for me it's LONG. The last one felt like it cracked me open a bit. So, I'm a bit nervous about doing this one. Of course I want to participate the entire time, but if sitting gets too rough at times, then I know I may need to bow out and take a break. We shall see. But I really do feel like meditation is an important part of my healing process. I just know I have a tendency to push too hard with things sometimes.

 

I've got an 18 hour drive ahead of me, but I'm giving myself 2.5 days to do it. When I get to the retreat I'll be camping in a tent. I know that all this stuff I've been doing this summer might seem kind of crazy (delving into issues, doing a fasting vision quest, hiking a 14,000 foot mountain peek, doing a four day backpacking trip off trail, and now this long drive and a week long retreat focusing on sitting with myself and no doubt, experiencing periods of discomfort. I don't know. Physically I feel OK most of the time aside from fatigue. Mostly my recovery seems to be dealing with the "non physical stuff," anxiety, depression, worry, resentment, very intense fear which yes, can be really debilitating at times. I know keeping busy is generally recommended, but I also believe that I need to "be with" all these thoughts and feelings that scare me, try to "make friends" with them and keep on moving in my life, sometimes pushing. I lean more and more towards believing that at least part of what I'm going through is an awakening process. I want to believe that, so I move in that direction. And while I hope that some spiritual shifting is happening, I know I also have to continue to deal with the "nuts and bolts" of daily life. Sometimes that is really difficult for me. The "simple" job of taking good care of myself, nurturing myself, loving myself and generally doing the mundane tasks that simply need to be done (exercise, get outside, eat well, etc.). Today was a good day for that. And I'm finding when I have times that I'm feeling better it's important for me to get some things done to feel productive. And then when I don't feel well and all I feel like I can do is go for a walk, maybe take a shower, perhaps read a bit, then I seem to feel more ok with it.

 

Anyway, sort of a rambling post, but that's my update.

[scallywag]

Great update elbee. You're on many inspiring adventures this summer: emotional, spiritual, physical and territorial. Wishing you continuing safe journeys.

[elbee]

Thanks scallywag.

[elbee]

It's a month later, and I'm back in Denver from my month long road trip of the west / northwest U.S., and I dropped my Sertraline (Zoloft) today by 10%. I probably should have held because I "cracked open" pretty good on that road trip. The first crack was in California when I did the week long silent meditation retreat. Tons of emotions came up through that process (which I expected). I stayed a few days in San Francisco, then headed north. I went to the Redwood National Park and a few of the state parks in that area. Then I went to Crater Lake National Park in Oregon. Next I headed west and drove along hw 101 on the Oregon coast. I next went to Bridge of the Gods on the Oregon / Washington border (because the movie "Wild" inspired me on this trip and that's where Cheryl Strayed ended her hike). Heading north I visited Mt St Helens, then the Mt Reiner National Park. And then I went about as far NW as one can go in the continental U.S. To the Olympic National Park in Washington. Most of this time I was camping except while in SF and a few nights in hotels.

 

I found a VERY remote place to camp in the Hoh Forest in the Olympic NP. No one knew where I was (I know, a "no no" for being in the wilderness on one's own). And I definitely felt the solitude and isolation and started to crack that first night, though my shakiness eventually lead to this feeling of steadfastness, strength, fortitude - something along those lines. I went for an 11 mile hike the next day along the Hoh River and felt really pretty good. The second night at my camp I felt OK, just really tired and fell asleep early. When I woke up, it was very overcast and misty and I had an ominous feeling. I felt lucky it hadn't rained during the night and still wasn't raining. So I packed up quickly and got on the road. After about 45 minutes of driving I was overcome with the worst emotional feeling I have ever felt. I had to pull over. I was crying and screaming and I remember realizing that I didn't know how much feelings could physically hurt. Since then, I've been pretty raw, and again cried and screamed and cursed and all kinds of stuff while I was driving at various times. But one thing I noticed with this was that it felt like RAW emotion. The times in the past two or so years when I've experienced this it was always accompanied by extreme anxiety. Most of the time lately, I've experienced the emotion more deeply and generally the anxiety wasn't prominent. So I dunno.

 

I'm going backpacking this weekend, then I head east to do a weeklong personal growth workshop (focusing on trauma and family of origin stuff), and then south back to my apartment in Florida.

 

It's been a wild ride! I've now been on the road for 3 months, and when I get back to Florida I'll will have been my pilgrimage for over 100 days. My summer of solitude, being with myself in nature mostly. So intense. I think that's all I've got for now.

[elbee]

Checking in. I'm back in Florida now . . .    My summer "pilgrimage" turned out to be for 111 days in total. At the end, I went to Onsite Workshops just outside of Nashville and did their Living Centered program. It's not cheap, but was very good. It's small group experiential therapy and it was INTENSE! My small group therapist / group leader was extremely competent . . . like probably one of the best I've ever worked with. For those that have had involvement with Adult Children of Alcoholics and Dysfunctional Families (ACA . ACoA), they hit those core issues hard (addiction issues, family of origin, codependency, trauma, etc.). I think my summer road trip had me primed and ready for the experience, because I definitely broke through to some deep stuff. I felt better, so much lighter for a night, and then the next layer of the onion was peeled back the following day and new stuff opened up. And yes it's uncomfortable, but as I've said before, I think with this stuff, the only way (for me at least) to really move forward is to move through. 

Of note, overall my anxiety has been decreasing as of late and I'm guessing it's at least in part because my emotions, particularly grief and anger, have started to really unbottle and flow.  AND, I'm wondering if the emotions starting to really come up and out has to do with the decrease in meds, whether it be WD symptoms, neuro emotions, or simply stuff that's been stuck in me for a very long time (and numbed by meds) finally releasing. So while experiencing the intensity and frequency of these emotions is uncomfortable, for me it's preferable to intense generalized anxiety and panic . . . and I hope their release contributes to a better life down the road. And I'll continue to do my "inner work" (therapy, ACA, meditation, etc).  

So, I reduced my sertraline again this month (4 weeks) by slightly more than 10%, but the reduction I did puts me at 100 mg which is an easy dose to work with (and I seem to be doing OK). =]

[Bruin]

Heard very good things about Onsite Workshops.....Glad that you had a a good experience and it is going in the right direction.

 

All the Best 

 

Bruin.

[scallywag]

Nice that you ended your trip with a successful experience.  I'm glad to hear that the anxiety has decreased and hope that today's level is the new maximum, until a new lower maximum appears.

[bubble]

Hello Elbee and thank you for sharing your journey. I find it very interesting and inspiring.

 

It's great that you can work on your trauma and do other self-discovery things. And that you are tapering at the same time. Yes, we never know what is what in this mess of WD, neuroemotions, reduced drug hold over us...

 

I just looked at your signature and find it very interesting that you gradually reduce all three drugs. I'm learning on my example that when there is a combo that seems to be the best strategy. Somehow the interaction among the drugs changes as we reduce one and reducing others after that seems to bring them into balance again.

 

I look forward to reading about your journey and wishing you a smooth ride.

[elbee]

Thanks for your supportive comments! <3

 

Bubble, I don't think there is any type of consensus on which drugs to taper first. I know this website recommends getting off the antidepressants first, but my gut says to do what I'm doing, reduce one at a time but rotate the one I'm reducing. I'll hold for a month now that I just tapered the Sertraline, but next month my plan is to start tapering the clonozapam again.

[brassmonkey]

I'm so happy for you that the trip has gone so well, a true journey of introspection.

 

BB

 

Brass

[elbee]

Been a while, checking in . . . yes, I'm still alive. I've made a lot of progress on my med reduction. I'm off the Remeron completely, YAY! I've been alternating the reduction of the Zoloft and the Klonopin. I've been tapering somewhat more quickly at times than is advised on here, but I really trying to listen to my body / spirit. I haven't had any panic attacks thus far in my taper which is my goal - though at times I've pushed too hard with the taper and felt rising sensations of panic. When that's happened, I hold. I'm pushing, but backing off when I need to.

 

I'm still doing tons of "inner work." Personally, I'm convinced that the root of my anxiety, depression, addictions to substances and behavioral addictions (both for numbing and distracting) are due to childhood trauma. So in my case, I feel like I have one foot pushing down on the accelerator (taking on dealing with past trauma, healing) and the other letting up on the brake (med taper). I'm also convinced that some of my withdrawal ("discontinuation syndrome") is in fact stored trauma rising and releasing. It's been called "neuro-emotions" by some, and I think emotional chaos IS a part of the withdrawal process. AND, I know that as I become less "numbed" by the meds and do the "inner work" I'm doing ("awakening"), stored trauma is being released - and with that, I'm learning new ways to live. 

 

I have found the 12 step program, community and literature of Adult Children of Alcoholics and Dysfunctional Families (ACA) to be an INCREDIBLE resource in this process! It's my opinion that to be human is to experience trauma (loosely using the term) . . . simply it ain't easy being a present, aware and humane human being in this world. And if one experience family dysfunction in childhood that goes unhealed, it's going to cause some serious problems. There are many healing frameworks, but for me, the ACA / inner child framework really resonates. That, meditation, and some EMDR with a really good therapist have been key. I would say the work I'm doing now is shadow work . . . bringing the unconscious into the conscious . . . "looking under the bed" and not running away from the feelings I've been running from my whole life. I have seen amazing changes in myself, and those in my recovery circle help me keep seeing the changes when I can't see them myself. I still feel consumed at times with the weight of unhealed shame and abandonment . . . but not as much. I know I'm going in the right direction, and that getting off the meds is an essential component.

[KarenB]

That's one great update elbee - congratulations on getting off remeron.  You win! 

[bubble]

I love your update too. Especially since I also agree that for some of us getting off the drugs is only part of the picture. Unless we don't address what led us to taking them in the first place we haven't really done much. I don't have access anything like ACA here but I've also been working on  my childhood traumas for the last 20 years (half of my life  and I found the inner child framework very, very helpful. And self-parenting and things like that.

 

You are careful with your taper but just be careful with the possibility of delayed WD onset. Maybe taking a longer hold even when doing well would be good...

 

Keep us posted and good luck! 

[elbee]

Hey KarenB & Bubble, thanks for your supportive comments! KarenB, I see at this time you have a Gabor Mate quote . . . I love his book, "In the Realm of Hungry Ghosts" . . . how he first of all looks at all additions (substance and behavioral) and "medicators" . . . and how he sees the root of all addiction being trauma.

 

Bubble, ACA has remote meetings available . . . online or by phone: http://www.meetings.adultchildren.org/find-a-meeting1

[elbee]

Also, I want to mention the conundrum I faced with my taper being on both a benzo (Klonopin) and an AD (Zoloft) . . . as well as being on Remeron when I started this process. Which to taper first? This site says taper the AD first, the benzo sites say taper the benzo first. In general, I think the information at this website overall is probably the MOST RELIABLE for solid information on tapering psych meds. However, I'm not sure I agree with the suggestion to taper the AD first (based on my own research and experience). This website has at least one thread dedicated to this question which can be found here:

 

http://survivingantidepressants.org/index.php?/topic/2207-taking-multiple-psych-drugs-which-drug-to-taper-first/

 

I decided to alternate the taper between the three drugs I was on, and so far, so good (off Remeron, benzo down almost 75%, AD down almost 50%). My plan is to continue the alternating AD / benzo taper until I get to 75 mg of Zoloft (half of the original dose), and then taper the Klonopin down to zero / jump. Because of my understanding of how the Benzo works (generally, reach tolerance very quickly, 4-8 weeks), I believe I'm simply going through a dosing/withdrawal affect with each benzo dose I take - twice daily. I take some in the morning and some at night, so in other words, I take my morning pill in the morning, get back up to tolerance level, then spend the rest of the day simply going through benzo withdrawal. Then the same cycle with the nighttime dose. Whereas the SSRI has a much slower effect on changing brain structure (based on the scant research out there I have found). My goal with the alternating taper has been to heal both neurotransmitter systems (GABA and Serotonin) at the same time, but reducing only one med at a time with the taper. I do think this has worked relatively well, and continuing this method through my taper of both remaining drugs would probably (hopefully) bring me to a successful zero on both (if I go slowly enough).

 

However, I'm at 25% of the benzo now (.5 mg) compared to when I started this taper (2 mg), and I think it now makes sense to take the benzo all the way down and end the quickly repeating withdrawal symptoms I experience twice daily from that drug. THEN I will focus on reducing the SSRI as slowly as I need to until zero/jump. My experience is that while the benzo withdrawal seems to be more acutely intense, the SSRI withdrawal is much slower, yet also much more dramatic with regards to my anxiety panic symptoms. With regards to “activation,” the benzo seems to be much more activating in the short term, the AD much more activating in the long term. At this point, I'm now much more concerned about experiencing a panic attack through the SSRI withdrawal than the benzo, and I don't believe the benzo will help with the SSRI withdrawal symptoms, but in fact may exacerbate them. Again, this is based on my own research and my own experience. I could very well be totally wrong!  

 

In short, I think the SSRI MAY stabilize the benzo withdrawal, but I don't believe the benzo will at all help to stabilize the SSRI withdrawal. Will doing the benzo withdrawal first exacerbate the SSRI withdrawal after? Perhaps … we shall see how it goes. But it FEELS to me that the continuous daily effects of simply being on the benzo at a constant dose (dosing /withdrawal twice a day) is worse overall than any benefit that would be derived from being on benzos during the AD withdrawal.

 

Also, I'm already off the Remeron and I'm not going back on that. My sleep is pretty messed up, but as I'm not working right now and have few obligations, I can work with that. If I were to do this over again, I might have waited and tapered the Remeron last. I did it first because I had been on it for only about a year and at a fairly low dose compared to the 25 year period for the other two drugs.

[KarenB]

I loved that Hungry Ghosts book too. 

 

Hey you might find the detailed discussion in taper-more-than-one-drug-at-a-time? useful, if you haven't seen it already. 

[bubble]

I find your analysis and experience of tapering both benzo and ADs very useful.

 

I'm at a bit higher percentages but also trying to decide how to proceed. I started tapering the benzo first because I was on a high dose 2 mg of xanax (which is higher than Klonopin I think...). So I brought that one down to 0.62 which is easy to hold and then started the AD taper.

 

My taper from 0.8 to 0.6 was a bit rushed which resulted in a terrible case of benzo brain. I held for 9 months. 5 of those 9 months I woke up every 2 hours. I was told that might be a sign of AD becoming too activating once the benzo was reduces so significantly. I don't know if that was a councidence but when I reduced the AD by 2% I stopped waking up literally the next day!

 

I've been tapering only AD for 6 months now and it's very hard. I can only reduce by 2% per month and even that leaves me with 2-3 days of such debilitating symptoms that I can't get out of bed. The rest of the post reduction time is also harsh but not to that level.

 

One could say that the partial benzo WD made my CNS extra sensitive...

 

I will follow your experience very closely to help myself in deciding what to do next.

 

I have a distinctly different set of symptoms now during AD WD as opposed to the benzo one. My brain starts speeding, feels in overdrive, lots of energy that can be hard to control at times. Have to do lots of grounding and calming and avoid stimulation by which I mean any activity especially the one involving people.

 

What are the activating symptoms for you?

[miT]

On 2017-6-13 at 9:43 PM, bubble said:

I love your update too. Especially since I also agree that for some of us getting off the drugs is only part of the picture. Unless we don't address what led us to taking them in the first place we haven't really done much. I don't have access anything like ACA here but I've also been working on  my childhood traumas for the last 20 years (half of my life  and I found the inner child framework very, very helpful. And self-parenting and things like that. 

 

I completely agree with you. Tapering the drugs these last months revealed what got me on the drugs in the first place. Those same feelings of despair came back again. The difference between before and after is in the cognitive progress. I learned to see the inner child framework instead of acting it out.

 

That being said, it's still a struggle. In wihdrawal the emotions are very strong and the child framework goes so deep.

[elbee]

Karen, thanks for providing a link to Rhi's thread on tapering multiple drugs at once. This is an awesome and inspirational resource for me!

 

Bubble, thanks for your reply. I'll be curious as I follow your progress, too! Honestly, it's hard for me to differentiate all of this. Do a wake up in a wave one day because of protracted withdrawal from the sertraline, or because I did a micro drop on the benzo two days ago, or because I had intense therapy the day before, or because I had a conversation that triggered me . . . ? There is no way I can now for sure . . . I'll write more about that in a moment. Mostly, I'm trying to be loving, gentle, kind and patient with myself . . . to remember that little boy screaming in terror inside of me and let him be the source of for my self compassion. Some days it works better than others . . .

 

miT, thanks for sharing your experience. As I just mentioned, that inner child framework allows for me to find the self compassion I need to get through this. I think this framework will be with me for life though, a new way of looking at myself and the world around me. More than anything, I think it has to do with trusting myself, which I want to say a few words about . . .

 

What I have found is that there are tons of people "out there" that say they have THE answer, and then try to sell it (a book, a program, a retreat, a drug, spirituality, psychology, various meditation practices, etc.). The most important lesson I think I’ve had to learn on this healing path is to TRUST MYSELF FIRST. As long as I'm looking for THE source with THE solution, I'm chasing my tail and undermining my own recovery (IMHO). There are many good sources of information, and NONE OF THEM has all the answers for ME. Consciousness (which when we're talking about mental health is what I find to be the foundation to examine) is so NOT understood by human beings. In short, we humans have almost no clue. Some of us have found some good stuff and try to share it with others, but generally words get in the way. And of course, there are so many “healers” out there just trying to sell snake oil – so sad / infuriating! TRUSTING MYSELF has, I believe, been the cornerstone of my recovery . . . and I still have a long way to go.

 

I'm SO appreciative of the folks on this site for sharing their thoughts, information they have gathered, their own experiences, etc. I have been able to draw from all of this and try out what seems to work for me. In my case with the meds, I have no way of actually knowing what order of tapering, or the exact speed, will work best. I look for those with no apparent conflict of interest – generally those who aren't trying to make money off of what they are saying to be "true," and also, those who are providing information based on their own experience.

 

Technically due to it's half life, I SHOULD not be experiencing twice daily withdrawal symptoms with the benzo. However, my body is telling me I am. I can't say why, nor show any evidence, but something in me says that's true, AND it's based on what seems to be my own experience. Many would say Zoloft has no sedative effects. I’ve always taken Zoloft in the morning because I was told it had stimulating effects. However, someone recently told me that Zoloft helped her sleep while she was tapering her benzo. No one can argue with her experience, right? AWESOME it seems to have worked for her in that way! 

 

Do I have Zoloft induced anxiety (another person suggested this to me)? There are definitely “experts” that would say this is the case. The mainstream would say I have anxiety because I'm getting off the Zoloft right now and my underlying anxiety is coming through. That could be true also, probably is in part. Others would say that I'm experiencing anxiety from "withdrawal" / "discontinuation syndrome." I think this is probably true as part of the complex mix of why I have anxiety, too. BUT, there is really no way for me to tell any of this for sure. I can't run a double blind experiment on myself unfortunately.

 

It's virtually impossible to run really good experiments on this stuff, generally. There are SO many variables in the mix, and so little financial incentive for anyone to do this type of work. As a result, the drug companies are "winning" . . . providing the “cure” for our living in the extremely dysfunctional culture we are forced to adapt to.

 

So, I'm getting off the meds . . . period. For many years, I adjusted my physiology to match the life I thought I was SUPPOSED to be living. Now I'm adjusting my life to match my physiology (the best I can). I am a unique snowflake in all of this, and I am the keeper . . . the steward of the fully-human beauty that is me. I am in charge . . . I have to make the tough calls. AND I'm so grateful for all you "fellow travelers" out there who are sharing your experience on your own paths of healing and recovery!

 

 

[KarenB]

That's it right there Elbee - you've got it!

[apace41]

11 hours ago, elbee said:

Bubble, thanks for your reply. I'll be curious as I follow your progress, too! Honestly, it's hard for me to differentiate all of this. Do a wake up in a wave one day because of protracted withdrawal from the sertraline, or because I did a micro drop on the benzo two days ago, or because I had intense therapy the day before, or because I had a conversation that triggered me . . . ? There is no way I can now for sure . . . I'll write more about that in a moment. Mostly, I'm trying to be loving, gentle, kind and patient with myself . . . to remember that little boy screaming in terror inside of me and let him be the source of for my self compassion. Some days it works better than others . . .

 

Elbee,

 

Love this post in general and I can SO resonate with this portion of it.  The multi-factorial nature of all of this is so difficult for me to deal with.  For anyone who is largely a "problem solver" -- i..e., someone who sees an issue, attacks it, solves it and moves on, the withdrawal process, with its non-linearity and its constant twists and turns, is infuriating and counterintuitive.  I struggle with this ALL the time.  What caused what?  What can I change?  Should I do this?  Why did I do that?  

 

You have come to the right answer when you say that all you can really do is hold onto yourself and acknowledge that it's okay to not have answers so long as you can gently and kindly provide self care and self compassion.  It is easier said than done for me most of the time.  Learning to simply accept and nurture oneself in the middle of the maelstrom is probably the biggest gift one can take away from this process.  If I can get there I will find some redemptive value in this otherwise painful and ridiculously long process.  I know I have a LONG way to go.

 

Your words are inspiring.

 

Best,

 

Andy

[elbee]

apace41, thanks for sharing your thoughts / ideas . . . some powerful stuff there. I am a good problem solver / strategist, too. And I think that's honestly been part of my problem -- I've lived most of my life in my head. I'm realizing that it's impossible to try and "figure **** out* when there are missing pieces . . . in my case, missing memories and most importantly, missing feelings. So I'm learning how to freely feel again, and to bring the feelings "into the equation." And still, it seems that life / consciousness is not all that logical, haha. And while I'd like to think I have control in my life in so many ways, when I look more realistically, the "control" is usually an illusion (or at least very temporary). And of course, I'm my own worst abuser -- the critic in me has historically looked for any opening to prove to me that I'm wrong, broken, a loser, etc. Finding and coming to know the places of my most intense vulnerability and treating those places with love, patience and compassion instead of disdain and contempt is my practice.

[elbee]

Bubble reminded me in her thread of Dr. Elaine Aron's work and the highly sensitive person (HSP). While I tend to think of "sensitivity" on a continuum as opposed to thinking of it in terms of whether I'm a categorical "HSP" or not, I'm learning to try an accept that I'm apparently pretty sensitive. For those of us who may be wired (for whatever reasons) as more sensitive than "average," (genetics, childhood experiences, metaphysics, etc.) then this no doubt is part of the equation with all of these meds, right? While in this med context the additional sensitivity could be seen as a liability perhaps contributing to the difficulty in getting off of them, there are times when I can also see that sensitivity has the potential to be one of my greatest gifts. Quite honestly, this is a huge motivator for me in getting off the meds . . . to gain full access to my "gifts" and then learn to work with them. 

 

My whole life, I've wanted to push my sensitivity away . . . seeing it as a liability. Sensitivity didn't seem to benefit me when as a child I could feel my parents' pain as they were oblivious to mine. It didn't seem to benefit me when in grade school I got bullied and couldn't understand why other kids would want to hurt each other. It didn't seem to benefit me when I was entering my teens, terrified of my same sex attraction, and the LAST thing I wanted was to be seen as "sensitive." And my sensitivity hasn't seemed to clearly benefit me in my adulthood, living in a culture where competition and aggression are the most respected characteristics of what it means to be a MAN.

 

So as a young child, I began to shut down my feelings I didn't know what to do with. In early school I learned that if I acted tough and confident I wouldn't get picked on. Later I learned that I was most "respected" when I dated girls, not boys -- when I put on the "armor" of an all-conference high school football athlete and drew "confidence" from alcohol and other drugs. When those tactics weren't enough and I started having panic attacks in college, I found my way to an SSRI and a Benzo. And in adulthood, I STILL tried my hardest to be "the best little boy in the world" . . . to keep finding ways to push through . . . to create a successful company and to be an "A-Gay" (money, popularity, power, a hot boyfriend, etc.).

 

And then it all finally and completely fell apart.

 

And here I am today . . . finding myself going back to that sensitive young boy I had to abandon long ago, and struggling now to reclaim and honor him. Getting off these damn meds is part of this work.

[bubble]

16 hours ago, elbee said:

. to gain full access to my "gifts" and then learn to work with them. 

 

My whole life, I've wanted to push my sensitivity away . . . seeing it as a liability.

 

And here I am today . . . finding myself going back to that sensitive young boy I had to abandon long ago, and struggling now to reclaim and honor him. Getting off these damn meds is part of this work.

 

This definitely resonates so much. I can't even remember when I stopped deeply resenting what I am like and when I stopped wanting to be like other sturdier, more matter of fact people. It wasn't such a long time ago... It's also a part of our Western culture: it's perfectly ok to tell someone - oh you are so sensitive! But nobody ever thinks of telling anyone- oh you are such a bully!

 

Our generation was not taught self-love and acceptance. Instead we were taught it's selfish to take care of oneself. And it's such a hard work to take care of ourselves and find a good use for all the gifts that we've been given. Especially those that don't conform with the norm or are not in fashion at a given time. (Sensitivity was much more in fashion during romanticism when it was considered a sign of nobility whereas today it's seen as a sign of weakness).

 

It was quite some time ago that I redefined what success means for me: not pleasing somebody but honouring myself, not having stuff but being (a fuller person present in the moment capable of absorbing wealth hidden in every given moment). It's not that I do it especially not completely but I live in the shadow of that thought...

 

Reading what you wrote reminded me of the poem I used to love: Song of Myself by W. Whitman: I celebrate myself, and I sing myself...

 

And especially these lines:  “I have said that the soul is not more than the body,
And I have said that the body is not more than the soul,
And nothing, not God, is greater to one than one's self is,
And whoever walks a furlong without sympathy walks to his own
funeral drest in his shroud,
And I or you pocketless of a dime may purchase the pick of the
earth, (...)

I hear and behold God in every object, yet understand God not in the
least,
Nor do I understand who there can be more wonderful than myself.

Why should I wish to see God better than this day?
I see something of God each hour of the twenty-four, and each moment
then, (...)

There are different interpretations of what walking without sympathy means but to me it always meant walking without sympathy for oneself. For those who don't treat themselves well can't treat others and our universe well (as we are witnessing).

 

This stage of my withdrawal makes me very poetic and musing it seems  Who knows what will happen with further decreases...  I just hope you don't mind me being poetic in your thread Elbee

 

On a much less poetic note and donning my serious mod hat I would recommend treating yourself to a nice longish hold. Spend some nice time with that sensitive boy, treat him to something nice while you are letting your brain catch up with all the rewiring work it has to do... I know you probably won't listen to me but I had to make this plea on behalf of your brain.

 

[Shep]

Hi, Elbee.

 

I caught some of your conversation about the HSP over on Bubble's benzo thread and am now enjoying reading your posts here on your own thread.

 

I can really relate to what you're writing, including issues involving my own sexual orientation and trying to conform. I grew up in the south here in the US and in the 80's, being an androgynous female and trying to conform brought on even more depression and teenage angst. And landing in the mental health system at 17, meant I was being "treated" by doctors trained when the DSM still listed being gay as being mentally ill. The drugs they gave me I now know were a form of oppression. 

 

So 30 years later, I'm left to dissect and heal from all of this in order to move on.

 

Thank you for your writing. It's very powerful and helpful. I wish you well on your journey to get off these drugs and finally find some much deserved peace. 

 

 

 

 

[Shep]

16 hours ago, bubble said:

On a much less poetic note and donning my serious mod hat I would recommend treating yourself to a nice longish hold. Spend some nice time with that sensitive boy, treat him to something nice while you are letting your brain catch up with all the rewiring work it has to do... I know you probably won't listen to me but I had to make this plea on behalf of your brain.

 

In addition to my previous post, Elbee, I want to encourage you to listen to our wise Bubble. She gives great counsel when it comes to the power of a hold. She leads by example on this. 

 

While you are going through aspects of the un-patienting process, be kind to yourself and that sensitive boy. This is a process where everything matters, including holding. 

[miT]

Hey Elbee, same here. I have always been very sensitive. Then the drugs and life in general made me a tougher nut to crack. But now that the drug is being stripped down, I'm starting to see that small vulnerable boy again.

[bubble]

Elbee, Shep and miT - I'm really glad the three of you got together (here) and happy to have met you (although the circumstances could be more pleasant). But it's fellow travelers that ease the hardship of a journey...

[elbee]

Bubble, Shep and miT, thank you all for sharing your thoughts, and some of your own experiences!

 

Bubble, you are welcome to be poetic on my timeline any time! I love that the sensitive, poetic parts of you are waking up

 

Shep, I've been checking in on you from time to time since I started with this forum. You're incredibly courageous story is so inspiring! I actually have a question for you on dp/dr . . . I'll message you about it.

 

miT . . . as I get lower and lower on the meds, I feel all kinds of things in myself coming alive. Some of it is wondrous, and some terrifying. IMHO, all of it necessary to be living a fully human life!

 

Regarding a hold . . . I know I've been pushing hard with my taper. My issue is that my WD normal is not good. In 2014 when I got off all my meds (under doc supervision, WAY too fast of course), and then experienced panic attacks like I hadn't since I had first got on them in 1991, I was put on a crazy med chase and docs were throwing me on this drug and that drug and more of this other drug, etc. for 8 months. I KNOW my brain got scrambled in that process. I also know that things were failing even before that d/c attempt . . . everything was "pooping out," alcohol (which I used to supplement for many years) no longer had any positive effect, just made me sicker so I quit drinking. In short, around August 2015 I found a reinstatement on more drugs than I had ever been on that stopped the panic attacks (mostly), but still left me feeling incredibly anxious and barely functional. And quite frankly, it was time for all my "trauma issues" to finally surface and be dealt with, and for me to make some major overhauls in my life. My situation is that I'm not working, taking time off, sort of "holing up." I'm in a VERY lucky position to be able to do this . . . to face this nightmare and not have to work, support a family, be a good partner . . . I have almost no commitments / obligations. Financially, I have more time, but not forever. So I'm trying to be kind to myself, not to push TOO hard on the taper, but my "WD normal" doesn't really leave me too functional. I'm not in a "sustainable" position in my life . . . I have to keep moving this process along. It's either keep pushing for now, or perhaps end up in a position of needing to work and really struggling to do that. I have such admiration for all of you who are holding down jobs, taking care of kids, etc.

 

OK, so I just read all this, and I have no good way to justify pushing the taper, other than things have been bad on these drugs for a long time and holding doesn't seem to help enough to warrant holding. It doesn't make things "better enough." So my WD normal sucks, and I'm just trying to make it not suck any worse. Right now it's sucking "more worse" so I need to ease up.

[Shep]

On 7/25/2017 at 2:13 PM, elbee said:

OK, so I just read all this, and I have no good way to justify pushing the taper, other than things have been bad on these drugs for a long time and holding doesn't seem to help enough to warrant holding. It doesn't make things "better enough." So my WD normal sucks, and I'm just trying to make it not suck any worse. Right now it's sucking "more worse" so I need to ease up.

 

Holding sounds like a really good idea, Elbee. Also, you may wish to taper with smaller reductions. I pulled the past few months off your signature and looked at your reduction rates:

 

5/7/17: Z=90 mg, K=.71 mg  

6/11/17: Z=82 mg, K=.58 mg  9% reduction in Zoloft, 18.31% reduction in Klonopin

7/9/17: Z=82 mg, K=.5 mg       0% reduction in Zoloft, 13.8% reduction in Klonopin

7/23/17: Z=75 mg, K=.5 mg     8.54% reduction in Zoloft, 0% reduction in Klonopin

 

I responded to your PM, but now that I'm looking at your reduction rates for the Klonopin, I'm concerned that the earlier large reductions in Klonopin (highlighted in red) may be catching up to you and ramping up your dp/dr.  This was also being done while making more moderate (but still sizable) reductions in Zoloft. I really think you're tapering way too fast, especially since you are tapering more than one drug at a time. That calls for extra caution and precision. 

 

I hope you see some relief as you continue holding. Try to keep up with the usual non-drug coping techniques - mindfulness, Epsom salt baths (if you can tolerate magnesium), and other helpful non-drug coping tools. But above all, please hold and give yourself more time before another reduction. 

 

Please keep updating.  

[brassmonkey]

That's the big problem with WDnormal. It's not feeling good (wish that it was) but rather an average feeling of suckatude that takes for ever to slowly show any improvement. This is a frustratingly slow process, but it doe work.  I recall it wasn't until I was into the third year of my taper before I started to recognize that improvements were happening and the WDnormal baseline was creeping up.  It can't be rushed and any attempt to hurry it along will only end up slowing it down.  All told it sounds like you're in a wonderful situation to be handling this horror and understand what needs to be done to get through.  Hang in there and things will get better.

 

(((((((((((((((((HUGS))))))))))))))

 

Brass

[elbee]

Shep, I was pushing and I pushed too hard. It's been pretty bad, and I'm holding now. Thanks for your thoughtful response.

 

Brass, thanks for your encouragement and reminder with WDnormal. I pushed too hard, and now I'm experiencing greater than "normal" suckatude. And yes, the trap is exactly as you described. My WDnormal was getting better to the degree that I started thinking about working again and life goals and such, but not good enough to actually move on any of that stuff.

 

So I got scared and impatient, thinking I could push a bit, get off this crap more quickly, and "move on" with my life. I'm glad I'm not totally beating myself up for pushing. But it's clear I need to sit tight for now, and get back to the mindset that I AM "moving on" with life. It's just that how life looks moving forward is going to be different than how it has looked historically. I don't yet know what it looks like moving forward and that scares me, but I can also trust that not knowing doesn't necessarily mean that it's going to be "bad." 

[Shep]

Holding is a great plan, Elbee.

 

Please update from time to time on how you're doing with your hold. Just a thought, you may be better off coming off the Zoloft first and then coming off the Klonopin.   Klonopin is a very potent benzo that is notorious for causing dp/dr, so you may want to hold it steady for a long time. Dr. Ashton even mentioned Klonopin as possibly being a worse offender with dp/dr than other benzos here in her Ashton Manual. That's not to say other benzos - and even other psych drugs for that matter - can't cause dp/dr, but if it is coming from Klonopin withdrawal, you will likely benefit from holding a few weeks (or longer) and stabilizing. 

 

Before you make anymore changes, please post so we can go over your options. 

[elbee]

WARNING: SKIP READING THIS ENTRY IF READING ABOUT WAVES IS TRIGGERING FOR YOU (I know it is for me sometimes) . . .

 

Well, I'm in a "shi*storm" having the dp/dr/panic attacks now like I haven't had in a long time. I keep telling myself this is from pushing my taper too quickly, and of course, while in the "shi*storm" it's hard to believe / trust that (it must be some underlying "brokeness" with me, right?). I can tell my thinking is "off" right now though, because it feels like my entire life is a catastrophic mess, not just things associated with a particular life event or trigger. Of course when I'm thinking clearly, I mostly trust my recovery process . . . I may feel overwhelmed but I overall trust myself and my recovery process. When I'm in the place I am now, trust in all the things I've built up as part of my recovery come into question.

 

Brass, thanks for the GREAT explanation (in response to Andy, Best of SA thread) on the theory behind the AD WD theory this website is based on and that I've put my trust in:

 

Thanks for your reference to the Ashton Manual note on Klonopin, Shep. It continues to amaze me how many resources you have at your fingertips! I'm still inclined to taper the Klonopin first all the way to jump, and then taper the rest of the Zoloft. If for nothing else, I want the increased freedom of not being on a controlled substance. AND I know I'm not in a place to be making decisions at the moment, but that's been my thinking for some time now on how I'll proceed with my taper when the time is right.

 

So ya, I'm definitely holding now. I'm experiencing the DP/DR panic attacks (not ever sure what to call these "spells" now) but they are so terrifying and debilitating . . . a clear reminder of what got me started taking these damn meds 25 years ago! Evening, like right now, I tend to get a break from them (for whatever reason, it's always been that way). When the panic/dp/dr happens, I'm still trying to meditate my way through it . . . not run from it, but also not let it run away with me. It's such a delicate balance, and a true test of my "acceptance" practice. At times I've been able to be in touch with the younger parts of myself and say with belief . . . "Little guys, this is NOT YOUR FAULT" (i.e., this is not my fault, refrain from beating up on myself). Emotions have been coming up as I do this (fear, sadness, anger . . . frustration) and I know that's a good thing. Even if these are "neuroemotions" I think it's important to keep the emotional paths open . . . it does feel like stuff "clears" and allows me to at least "reset."

 

I am TRUSTING that this "setback" is from tapering too quickly. It's so hard to believe in the healing that has happened when in this state, but I've trusted this path for some time now and I'm down to taking just 25% of the meds I was taking when I began my taper. Obviously I've been able to push the speed of my taper to get the meds down as quickly as I have and get away with some of that, but I could feel I was pushing too hard these past few months and didn't listen to myself. It's clear to me that moving forward, I'm going to have to be much more conservative with my taper. I'll post my entire taper history below for folks to look at if interested . . . 

 

Right now, I keep telling myself I'm healing, trust this process, trust the hold, stay the course, be gentle and compassionate with myself. AND I keep telling myself that eventually I WILL get off these meds. One of the things that occurred to me is that I had actually "forgotten" how awful this "dp/dr/panic" feels, how terrifying it is . . . and I couldn't have forgotten that if I hadn't been feeling better for some time, right?

 

So ya, now is the time to trust in the HOLD and practice self compassion. Hopefully what I wrote is at least somewhat coherent. WHEW this tough!

 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

FULL TAPER HISTORY:

 

START: 150 mg sertraline (Z=Zoloft), 15 mg mirtazapine (R=Remeron), 2 mg clonazepam (K=Klonopin)

 

7/23/17: Z=75 mg, K=0.5 mg

7/9/17: Z=82 mg, K=0.5 mg

6/18/17: Z=82 mg, K=0.54 mg

6/11/17: Z=82 mg, K=0.58 mg

5/28/17: Z=90 mg, K=0.58 mg

5/21/17: Z=90 mg, K=0.62 mg

5/14/17: Z=90 mg, K=0.66 mg

5/7/17: Z=90 mg, K=0.71 mg

4/23/17: Z=100 mg, K=0.71 mg

4/16/17: Z=100 mg, K=0.75 mg

4/8/17: Z=100 mg, K=0.78 mg

3/26/17: Z=100 mg, K=0.82 mg

3/12/17: Z=100 mg, K=0.9 mg

1/22/17: Z=100 mg, K=1 mg

1/15/17: Z=100 mg, R=1.4 mg, K=1 mg

1/8/17: Z=100 mg, R=2.8 mg, K=1 mg

1/1/17: Z=100 mg, R=3.75 mg, K=1 mg

12/25/16: Z=100 mg, R=4.7 mg, K=1 mg

12/11/16: Z=100 mg, R=6 mg, K=1 mg

11/13/16: Z=100 mg, R=7.5 mg, K=1 mg

11/06/16: Z=100 mg, R=7.5 mg, K=1.175 mg

10/23/16: Z=100 mg, R=7.5 mg, K=1.25 mg

10/17/16: Z=100 mg, R=7.5 mg, K=1.375 mg

10/2/16: Z=100 mg, R=7.5 mg, K=1.5 mg

9/1/16: Z=112.5 mg, R=7.5 mg, K=1.5 mg

7/27/16: Z=125 mg, R=7.5 mg, K=1.5 mg

5/1/16: Z=135 mg, R=7.5 mg, K=1.5 mg

4/10/16: Z=150 mg, R=7.5 mg, K=1.5 mg

1/24/16: Z=150 mg, R=7.5 mg, K=2.0 mg

 

Supplements: 7/11/16 - 200 mg magnesium (stopped 7/5/17). 12/20/16 - 5,000 IU Vitamin D-3.

 

Psych Med History:

January, 1991 (age 20, in college): First major panic attacks (diagnosis, PD, GAD, Depression). Prescribed desipramine and lorazepam daily. 1/8/92 begin lorazepam taper. 3/1/92 off lorazepam, begin desipramine taper. 4/6/92 off all meds. 6/4/92 back on full dose daily lorazepam. 2/19/93 back on desipramine. 4/3/93 desipramine wasn’t working, prescribed Prozac. 5/10/93 Prozac wasn’t working, prescribed Zoloft (100 mg sertraline, 2.5 mg lorazepam daily). Tried to reduce meds several times in the following years but essentially took these meds since January 1991.

 

2014-2015: Quit drinking alcohol and 3.5 month taper off all meds under doc supervision. October 2014 - Return of severe panic attacks, with 8-month "SSRI/Benzo chase" to try and stabilize. June 2015 - Found a drug "reinstatement" (more drugs than I had ever been on) that stopped the panic attacks, but was left with severe anxiety, depression, and numerous side effects: 150 mg sertraline (Z=Zoloft), 15 mg mirtazapine (R=Remeron), 2 mg clonazepam (K=Klonopin)

[scallywag]

elbee -- you may be experiencing DP/DR/panic, but your post is clear and thoughtful. Celebrate how far you've come -- 25% of where you started 18 months ago is an inspiring accomplishment!