Jump to content
Jaco2016

Jaco2016: How do I do a 10% taper?

Recommended Posts

Jaco2016

Hi new to the forum here. 10 year history on various drugs for anxiety/mild depression with the longest use being 8 years of celexa. So i felt like I was stable in life and the side effects were making me crazy so I talked to my PCP about tapering. I tried to reduce the drug 5mg every 2 weeks (starting at 30 mg) and of course after I was off it was hell (physically - brain zaps, vertigo, motion sickness, etc) for the next 6 weeks until I decided to put myself back on the drug.

 

So I recently went back to my PCP and he recommended genesight testing to find which antidepressant would cause fewer side effects . Results came back that Wellbutrin was he best. I quite celexa cold turkey the day I started taking Wellbutrin. I'm having w/d symptoms again but not as strong - yet. It's been 3 weeks. Mood is fine but body feels bad. I'm reconsidering tapering off drugs completely again.

 

What should I do? Should I d/c Wellbutrin and go back to celexa and taper using 10% method? How does that work??? Should i keep up wii Wellbutrin hoping it kicks in soon and the celexa w/d goes away?

 

One thing that concerns me is that I've learned celexa isnamd SSRI and Wellbutrin SNRI. I've read Wellbutrin acts more on dopamine and norepinephrine than it does serotonin. This probably explains the celexa withdrawal symptoms.

 

I honestly don't want to go back on celexa but if that's he best chance of getting of meds altogether it might be worth!

 

Thanks for your support !!!

Edited by scallywag
tags

Share this post


Link to post
scallywag

Jaco -- Welcome to Surviving Antidepressants (SA)

You're asking good questions. I hope that we can point you to information so that you can feel confident about your decision. I'm glad you found us before too much time has passed.

As you discovered from a difficult withdrawal experience, it's best to taper very slowly to minimize the risk of symptoms. Here are a few links that provide lists of symptoms
What is withdrawal syndrome
Important topics about symptoms including sleep problems
Glenmullen’s withdrawal symptom list

A request: Would you summarize your history in a signature -- drugs, doses, dates, and discontinuations & reinstatements, in the last 12-18 months particularly?

  • Please use actual dates or approximate dates (mid-June, Late October) rather than relative time frames (last week, 3 months ago)
  • Please spell out the months; 9/1 can be interpreted as Jan. 9 or Sept. 1.
  • Any drugs prior to 18 months ago can just be listed with start and stop years.
  • You don't need to include symptoms or diagnoses other than the initial condition that led to prescribing the first drug.
  • We ask for this information in your signature so that we can see it at a glance. A list is easier to understand than one or multiple paragraphs.
  • You can find instructions in this topic: Please put your withdrawal history in signature
  • If you are using a phone or mobile device, you need to switch to the "full" or desktop version of the site. Instructions are in Post 8 and Post 9

Once we hear back from you with the timeline of your medication dose changes, we'll be able to offer ideas of possible next steps for you to consider.

For the record, here are our discussion topics on both Celexa and Wellbutrin:
Tips for tapering off Celexa (citalopram)
Tips for tapering off Wellbutrin XR, SR, XL (bupropion)

I hope you'll find the information in the SA forums helpful for your situation. I'm sorry that you are in the position that you need the information, but am glad that you found us.

Share this post


Link to post
Junglechicken

Hi Jaco,

 

"So I recently went back to my PCP and he recommended genesight testing to find which antidepressant would cause fewer side effects".

 

This is pretty amazing, I didn't know that genesight testing was available already.  Wonder if the UK medical profession are onto it yet?  Guess its too costly for the NHS.

 

Welcome to SA!

 

JC

Share this post


Link to post
Jaco2016

Hi Jaco,

 

"So I recently went back to my PCP and he recommended genesight testing to find which antidepressant would cause fewer side effects".

 

This is pretty amazing, I didn't know that genesight testing was available already.  Wonder if the UK medical profession are onto it yet?  Guess its too costly for the NHS.

 

Welcome to SA!

 

JC

Hi! Yes my PCP is a younger guy who seems to say up on the literature although he tells me "Genesight testing has been around for several years."  I guess only recently though insurance companies will pay for it.  Out of pocket it costs $250-$300. Glad to have found this forum!

Share this post


Link to post
Junglechicken

 

Hi Jaco,

 

"So I recently went back to my PCP and he recommended genesight testing to find which antidepressant would cause fewer side effects".

 

This is pretty amazing, I didn't know that genesight testing was available already.  Wonder if the UK medical profession are onto it yet?  Guess its too costly for the NHS.

 

Welcome to SA!

 

JC

Hi! Yes my PCP is a younger guy who seems to say up on the literature although he tells me "Genesight testing has been around for several years."  I guess only recently though insurance companies will pay for it.  Out of pocket it costs $250-$300. Glad to have found this forum!

 

 

Its great to see that this is actually happening as I had heard about it.

 

However, given the number of people from the US on this site, their PCPs perhaps did not know about it?

 

Maybe its the younger PCPs these days that are more up on the area of mental health?  Before we moved back to the UK from Canada, I saw a Junior PCP who knew about WD, and the dangers of ADs.

Share this post


Link to post
Jaco2016

Hi just posting an update. So after three weeks of switching cold turkey citalopram to Wellbutrin I'm putting myself back on 5mg citalopram today combined with Wellbutrin. I slept poorly last night - kept having dreams with motion sickness and would wake up feeling ill. I know it's only 3 weeks and I feel somewhat like a failure because I "should" be feeling ok being that I'm on another drug! I don't want to start becoming irritable and ANGRY like I did last time and the withdrawal symptoms wouldn't away! I have a wife and 4 young kids and If I want to keep my family intact I can't do any cold turkey quitting or switching.

Maybe if I taper slowly over several years.... but then again so many are posting success until that last 1mg taper then all hell breaks loose! Damn (are we allowed to swear on this board?). Damn,should I taper citalopram now from 5mg until Welllbutrin kicks in and then taper off Wellbutrin or taper off both? Wellbutrin is supposed to be more tolerable so I hope it kicks in finally with another week or two. Until then I can't stop citalopram .. damn!

Edited by scallywag
merged from new topic started

Share this post


Link to post
Jaco2016

Can anyone help me find info on successful transition from celexa / citalopram to bupropion/ Wellbutrin? I searched the site without any luck . Thanks!

Edited by scallywag
merged from new topic started

Share this post


Link to post
nz11

Hi Jaco i think you might be hard pressed to find info on that because this site does not do drug switching recommendations.

I think one reason for that is that the literature is hopelessly poisoned and so noone really knows what these chemicals with hundreds of side effects known and unknown are actually doing. If there was a magic pill to take away wdl then im sure sa would tell us. Sadly there isnt.

Once you trigger full blown wdl all bets are off on how to get out of it. Its a crap shoot doing xyz may or may not work. 

Thats why if you read the ri link it talks about medicine only knows about a ri of the current drug to try to relieve wdl symptoms. And sa takes a harm reduction approach by recommending a low dose ri.

 

"Switching antidepressants is not a good strategy" Glenmullen.

 

Could you explain this genesight testing thing to me what does that entail and did or how did  the medical profession draw a switching is best for you conclusion out of that?? What exactly was the reasoning behind that.

 

So what you are saying is on the basis of some gene they have decided that wellbutrin is the drug for you and not celexa so we just CT the celexa and give you wellbutrin and hey presto we live happily ever after?

I didnt think my faith in doctors could be pushed to new lows  but i think it just has.

 

Sorry you are in this difficult position and at no fault of your own.

Share this post


Link to post
scallywag

Jaco,  I've moved your posts and questions to your introduction topic so that all your information, questions and answers are in one place. Posting here in your introduction topic is the most likely place for your questions to be both seen and answered.
 
Please let go of the thoughts about failing. The failure is your doctor's not yours. Citalopram (Celexa) acts on serotonin processes. Because bupropion (Wellbutrin) acts on dopamine and norepinephrine, it is extremely unlikely that a switch to Wellbutrin will assist with symptoms of discontinuing Celexa. Reinstating Celexa was a good idea.

Citalopram to Wellbutrin switches are not well documented probably for that reason. (different neurotransmitters)

Regardless of how long you plan to stay on Wellbutrin, please run an interactions report for all the medications you take: Celexa, Wellbutrin, + others(?). Follow the link below to get your report. Just select the text, copy it and paste it in a post here.
Drugs-dot-com Drugs Interactions Checker.

Share this post


Link to post
Jaco2016

Interactions between your selected drugs

Major

bupropion citalopram

Applies to: Buproban (bupropion), Celexa (citalopram)

 

Talk to your doctor before using buPROPion together with citalopram. Combining these medications may increase the risk of seizures, which may occur rarely with either medication. In addition, buPROPion can increase the blood levels of citalopram, which may increase other side effects. You may be more likely to experience seizures with these medications if you are elderly, undergoing alcohol or drug withdrawal, have a history of seizures, or have a condition affecting the central nervous system such as a brain tumor or head trauma. Your doctor may be able to prescribe alternatives that do not interact, or you may need a dose adjustment or more frequent monitoring by your doctor to safely use both medications. You should avoid or limit the use of alcohol during treatment. It is important to tell your doctor about all other medications you use, including vitamins and herbs. Do not stop using any medications without first talking to your doctor.

Share this post


Link to post
Jaco2016

Hi Jaco i think you might be hard pressed to find info on that because this site does not do drug switching recommendations.

I think one reason for that is that the literature is hopelessly poisoned and so noone really knows what these chemicals with hundreds of side effects known and unknown are actually doing. If there was a magic pill to take away wdl then im sure sa would tell us. Sadly there isnt.

Once you trigger full blown wdl all bets are off on how to get out of it. Its a crap shoot doing xyz may or may not work. 

Thats why if you read the ri link it talks about medicine only knows about a ri of the current drug to try to relieve wdl symptoms. And sa takes a harm reduction approach by recommending a low dose ri.

 

"Switching antidepressants is not a good strategy" Glenmullen.

 

Could you explain this genesight testing thing to me what does that entail and did or how did  the medical profession draw a switching is best for you conclusion out of that?? What exactly was the reasoning behind that.

 

So what you are saying is on the basis of some gene they have decided that wellbutrin is the drug for you and not celexa so we just CT the celexa and give you wellbutrin and hey presto we live happily ever after?

I didnt think my faith in doctors could be pushed to new lows  but i think it just has.

 

Sorry you are in this difficult position and at no fault of your own.

 

So apparently the gene testing allows to find the "best match" of AD for your gene type. Wellbutrin, pristine and fetzima were all the best and Citaloscam was one of the worst matches for me. By best match I think less chances of the worst side effects like weight gain and loss of libido etc. the doc swabbed the inside of my mouth and sent the sample to a lab and within a week I had results.

 

When he told me to go CT off celexa I thought it's be ok because I thought I had read that Wellbutrin was it only an SNRI but also affected serotonin as well as dopamine and norepinephrine. I'm thinking that it doesn't block reuptake of serotonin like I thought I'd at all!

Share this post


Link to post
Jaco2016

Are we allowed to swear on this forum?! Anyone else have a hard time with anger because of just the persistence and apparent no end of w/d? How do you function in intellectually demanding work?? I pray for the courage I will need to face each coming day .. and to find ways to cope with what could be a long drawn out process !!

Share this post


Link to post
Jaco2016

On a positive note I had sex with my wife today and the sensation was absolutely incredible! I can't believe how numb my penis had become while on citaloscam!!

Share this post


Link to post
nz11

I wonder if the  lab testing centre is blind to what you were currently taking.

I wonder if they ever rec a drug to someone and then discovered  thats the drug they are already on!

I wonder if this genesight thing is another way to mislead patients into believing that the drug recommended doesnt carry any risks as is in fact associated with ALL the ads like say sucidality and mania and ...

I wonder if genesight is simply another take on the flawed tailoring hypothesis

I wonder if we scratch the surface we will find pharma (GSK?) money behind this genesight thing.

 

I wonder how doctors can be such academic giants and yet so disappointing at the same time!

I wonder how  'do not stop abruptly' can be so easily discarded  and become irrelevant

i wonder....if doctors are really being clear with themselves and their patients on drug identification not by gene type or treatment function but by pharmacological classification and properties including adverse drug effects.

i wonder if.....

 

wishing you strength for the journey ahead

sorry about my wonderings.

nz11

Share this post


Link to post
scallywag

Many instances of swearing will be censored automatically with asterisks, e.g. ****. Remaining instances will likely be removed by a forum moderator or site administrator.

 

If you want to let loose, feel free in Lalochezia - the cursing thread.

Share this post


Link to post
Jaco2016

Great I'm glad there is a place we can swear!! It's funny but swearing seems to somehow help me cope with the w/d symptoms- it's like a sensory stimulation or distraction thing or something... or I have Tourette's!!

Share this post


Link to post
Jaco2016

Hi,

Was wondering if anyone had advice for tapering Wellbutrin after only

two months use? I'm assuming go in 10% increments... should I do 10% every

couple weeks, faster? I'm thinking reduce every two-four weeks and then go more slowly

as needed if I feel withdrawal s/e but wanted to see if anyone else has any advice

before proceeding.

Thanks

Share this post


Link to post
ChessieCat

Hi jaco,

 

I've merged your new moved your new topic to your original Intro/Update topic.  Each member has 1 Intro topic where they can post questions and journal their progress.  This keeps your history in one place.

 

I'm unable to answer your question, but hopefully one of the other mods will pop in soon.

Share this post


Link to post
Jaco2016

So just to provide an update I'm now off all drugs. I'm having my windows and waves . Nothing too terrible

physically thank Heaven but what is really bothering me is APATHY and anhedonia! I honestly don't have

interests that I once had- sports, movies, reading, etc. I feel content to just sit and do nothing lol.

A

Share this post


Link to post
nicolantana

Hey jan,

 

just searched anhedonia to find more people with this. I have terrible anhedonia most of the time but there are occasional windows....I average a half-normal day once every two weeks where i might enjoy a movie/music/reading/sports...but apart from that nothing!.....but it seems alot of people go through this...but it ain't easy!

Share this post


Link to post
nicolantana

how long do you have anhedonia???

Share this post


Link to post
Jaco2016

Too long. I never had anhedonia until getting off this drug a month ago. I feel miserable, I hate my job. I have very little interest in

anything. I don't know how much longer I can do this

Share this post


Link to post
scallywag

Jaco, I wish we could tell you WHEN the anhedonia will lift; we can only tell you that it will at some point.

Share this post


Link to post
Madeleine

I have been doing a bit of reading on this and it seems we can to some extent influence or mood by our thoughts, so the theory is that we must be active, doing things that used to make us happy, and replace negative thoughts with positive ones (even if it is difficult, it's important to try.)  These positive actions and thoughts lift our mood, and the more we do this, the more positive and happier we can be.

I appreciate having been there that when going through the depths of withdrawal, it might not be a "cure-all", but even when we are at our lowest, trying to think of and do things as much as we can that give (or in the past) gave us pleasure can actually help lift anhedonia and our emotions.

Share this post


Link to post
Jaco2016

I have been doing a bit of reading on this and it seems we can to some extent influence or mood by our thoughts, so the theory is that we must be active, doing things that used to make us happy, and replace negative thoughts with positive ones (even if it is difficult, it's important to try.)  These positive actions and thoughts lift our mood, and the more we do this, the more positive and happier we can be.

I appreciate having been there that when going through the depths of withdrawal, it might not be a "cure-all", but even when we are at our lowest, trying to think of and do things as much as we can that give (or in the past) gave us pleasure can actually help lift anhedonia and our emotions.

Thanks Madeleine I appreciate your comments. I like CBT and that sounds very much like CBT - feelings result from thoughts as well as actions so try and change both to feel better. I haven't exercised in a while and that's something I used to enjoy so I may have to try

that again and hopefully some good feelings will follow. Also may try reading some professional literature. I used to get a great deal of satisfaction from this but now i loathe what I do in part because I have difficulty concentrating . Maybe if I force myself I can rewire my brain to start liking it again.

Share this post


Link to post
Jaco2016

Ok I'm h

Jaco, I wish we could tell you WHEN the anhedonia will lift; we can only tell you that it will at some point.

Ok I'm holding you to this !

Share this post


Link to post
Jaco2016
On 2017-03-28 at 0:54 PM, Madeleine said:

I have been doing a bit of reading on this and it seems we can to some extent influence or mood by our thoughts, so the theory is that we must be active, doing things that used to make us happy, and replace negative thoughts with positive ones (even if it is difficult, it's important to try.)  These positive actions and thoughts lift our mood, and the more we do this, the more positive and happier we can be.

I appreciate having been there that when going through the depths of withdrawal, it might not be a "cure-all", but even when we are at our lowest, trying to think of and do things as much as we can that give (or in the past) gave us pleasure can actually help lift anhedonia and our emotions.

Today I did something at my job that I've done many times before flawlessly and I was startled

by how challenging it was to do in the current state I'm in. I had to walk myself through each step. It was like I had been paralyzed

and am learning how to walk again. It was the strangest thing!

Edited by scallywag
no edit, goofed again with upgraded software

Share this post


Link to post
ChessieCat

I have times at work when I have to talk to myself as I'm doing something.  It's like my brain can't process it internally, possibly the short term memory, but talking through it, it seems easier to do.  Maybe it's because I'm using a different part of my brain, but not sure if it's to do with speaking, hearing or both.

Share this post


Link to post
Jaco2016

Hi all,

I'm in the midst of another week of constant anxiety. I'm taking St. John's wort, seeing a counselor and trying to use CBT on my own but I'm struggling with constant anxiety that greatly increased with an interpersonal conflict that my coworker has initiated with me.  

Can someone comment on magnesium for anxiety?  

I need something as I'm afraid of spiraling back into depression as I have in times past before I started taking medication. 

Thanks 

Edited by scallywag
merged from new topic started in Symptoms forum

Share this post


Link to post
ShakeyJerr

Hi J -

 

So sorry to hear that you are in anxiety wave. We have all been there - more times than we want to remember.

 

First off, know that it will end. Secondly, work your tools during anxiety waves, especially mindful breathing.

 

Here is the link to the main magnesium thread: 

 

In general, many of us have success with magnesium. It's a matter of finding the right dose, the right type, and the right schedule.

 

It is a long and useful thread. But if you have any specific questions, feel free to PM me and I will do my best to help you through the weeds or point you to a more knowledgeable source.

 

SJ

 

Share this post


Link to post
Jaco2016
20 hours ago, ShakeyJerr said:

Hi J -

 

So sorry to hear that you are in anxiety wave. We have all been there - more times than we want to remember.

 

First off, know that it will end. Secondly, work your tools during anxiety waves, especially mindful breathing.

 

Here is the link to the main magnesium thread: 

 

In general, many of us have success with magnesium. It's a matter of finding the right dose, the right type, and the right schedule.

 

It is a long and useful thread. But if you have any specific questions, feel free to PM me and I will do my best to help you through the weeds or point you to a more knowledgeable source.

 

SJ

 

Thanks SJ I appreciate it. I'm going to buy some magnesium today and try to find right dosage.  Is there a thread on St. John's wort dosage as well on here?

 

I know that this is not a wave- I've dealt with this anxiety all of my life and so I'm very familiar with it - now trying to find natural ways to deal with it.

Share this post


Link to post
Happy2Heal

you might want to try glycine

I know a lot of supplements don't work for us in WD and some work once or a few times and then not again

personally I"m getting a lot of relief from taking glycine, I take 1g at night, 1 in the middle of the night when I wake up and one later on when I am ready to start my day

Some days I only take 2, if I feel good enough when I get up

 

It comes in a powder form so you can take much smaller doses to see if it helps. That way you can reduce the risk of it causing some problem for you, although I don't think I've heard of anyone having a problem with it.

But that means nothing, basically, because I've never gone looking for any problems with glycine

 

It's an amino acid that is found in a lot of foods. For me it just helps with anxiety and seems to help me to sleep more deeply.

 

good luck

Share this post


Link to post
ShakeyJerr
2 hours ago, Jaco2016 said:

I'm going to buy some magnesium today and try to find right dosage

 

The general recommendation is start low. What our bodies used to tolerate, we don't right now.

 

I used to take 400 mg of Magnesium-Citrate for years with zero problems. But in recovery (I no longer am going to call it "withdrawal") that dose not only had a paradoxical effect, I found my guts would not longer tolerate the citrate form. I switched to Magnesium-Glycinate, which seems to be milder on the stomach - and has the added benefit of having glycine in it, which some people here have also found helpful. I bought 100mg veggie caps - I take one cap in the morning and one before bed, and the other one I open into my daytime water bottle and sip on it over the course of several hours.

 

Let us know how it goes for you.

 

SJ

Share this post


Link to post
Jaco2016

I can't switch to full version of the website and can't see signatures .. por que??

Share this post


Link to post
scallywag

Jaco, I've moved your post/question to your introduction topic for now.   We're a one-intro-topic-per-member kinda site. 

 

If you navigate to the Signature Settings page, you'll see a switch/button to view signatures. If it's showing grey, then just click it and you'll then be able to see all members' signatures. Here's the link:

 

Account Settings – Create or Edit a signature.

 

 

Share this post


Link to post

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
×

Important Information

By using this site, you agree to our Terms of Use.