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Lorin

Lorin: taper by peter breggin recomedation-an important question

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Posted (edited)

Question for the amazing managers here I would like to taper according to Dr. Peter Berggin's plan only!!!
 
I suffer from severe side effects with Lexapro and can not make a very slow taper
 
The recommendation you brought in Peter's forums here is to taper 10% every week in case I took a med for 1 year 
 
What does he say by chance that I took a 10-year medication?

is there answer for that in his book?
 
Thank you
Edited by scallywag
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Hi Lorin and welcome to Surviving Antidepressants.

 

SA (Surviving Antidepressants) recommends a taper of no more than 10% of the previous dose followed by a hold of about 4 weeks to allow the brain to adapt to not getting as much of the drug.

 

You say that you are experiencing side effects from Lexapro.

 

What dose are you taking?

 

What side effects are you getting?

 

Some members find that as their dose gets lower their side effects lessen.  You may be able to reduce a bit quicker than 10% to start with and then slow down and reduce by 10%.

 

 

Please create a drug signature Create Your Signature.  Please include details for the last 12-18 months of  all drugs, dates, doses and discontinuations & reinstatements.  If you can't remember dates, please write it as "early March" or "mid-August".  Please provide a summary of any drugs prior to that which can just be listed with start and stop years. Please include all prescription, non-prescription drugs and supplements you are currently taking. Phone Instructions:  Withdrawal History Signature. Please also remember to update it with date and dose whenever make a change so that it remains current. Thank you.

 

Here are some links to information on this website:

 

Before you begin tapering what you need to know
 

Why taper by 10% of my dosage?

 

Tips for tapering off Lexapro (escitalopram)

 

These helped me to understand SA's recommendations:

 

Brain Remodelling


Video:  Healing From Antidepressants - Patterns of Recovery

 

This is your own Introduction topic where you can ask questions and journal your progress.  If you click "Follow" top right you will be notified when someone responds.

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Hey
I asked a specific question
I will ask for a specific answer to my question

Thanks

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Hello Lorin,

 

I don't really know the details of Peter Breggin's approach.

 

As Chessie tried to explain we here recommend tapering based on the best experience of peers accummulated over many years.

 

In order to be able to answer any of your questions we will need the minimum of information that Chessie indicated.

 

We are all volunteers here going through our own withdrawals and trying to support each other the best way we can.

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i now takink 5 mg of lexapro and suffer from hard stomach problems because of the lexapro
i cant diagest food at all
and i want to  keep taper by the method of dr peter
i need to know what he recomend by his book in case i taked for years ad
its very important for me this way
thanx

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Hi Lorin,

 

We have a topic here which discusses Peter Breggin's taper method and there is a link to Chapter 8 from his book Your Drug May Be Your Problem:  How to Stop Taking Psychiatric Drugs

 

Please note that SA's recommendation is to reduce by 10% of the previous dose (not the original dose) and to hold for about 4 weeks (not 7 to 10 days) after a reduction.

 

dr-peter-breggins-10-taper-method

 

I hope this answers your question.

 

Please ask questions here in your own Introduction topic.

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When did the symptoms you describe start?

 

What was your starting dose and how fast did you come from that dose to 5 mg?

 

If you reduced from the higher dose which you were taking for 10 years, what you call side effects might be symptoms of reducing too fast.

 

In order to be able to say what it was we would need to know a bit more about your drug history.

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all start from the begining
i start from 20 mg 
you can see my taper in my signature

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Thank you for crating the signature with your drug history.

 

Does it mean that you have been on 5 mg of Lexapro since 3/2016 without any changes and any other drugs?

 

Could you describe what you call side effects? What kind of symptoms are those?

 

In response to your message about your posts that you say have been deleted they have actually been moved. We are trying to keep this forum organised so that people can find their way around. It takes a bit of time to learn where things are when you first join.

 

It's like tidying a house: we just put things were they long if we find them out of place.

 

 

Yesterday you created 2 topics.  One was in the Success area with just:  "please Responded thank you". We have hidden another with the same title in the same area with just: "thank you".  The Success story section is as its name suggests a section where people post their success stories after they have successfully withdrawn from medication. We move any other messages or questions that don't belong to that category.

 

The second of the 2 original topics was probably in the Tapering forum so it was moved to the Intro forum where all the members have one thread in which they talk about their particular situation and ask all sorts of questions related to their situation. This is the right place to post your questions.

 

I hope that this makes sense and that you will soon learn to navigate around and get used to the way we organised this 'house'.

 

Bubble

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i am in 5 mg since 3/17

i cant digest food at all because lexapro
all the day in the bathroom
because of that i have to taper more then 10%

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 Lorin . You may want to go back and read some of the links provided. There is a reason that we recommend the 10 % taper method - 10 % of the previous dose ( not the original dose ) and hold for about 4 weeks.

 

While Dr Breggin has done some outstanding work there are some basic differences regarding tapering between him and SA. While I'm sure you have your own mindset right now, we also have a wealth of experience to draw on and have found that this method works in the long run for the majority.  

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thanx

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Welcome Lorin

Wow a member in Israel. Its wonderful to have you join sorry it has to be under these circumstances.

How 'slow' would you like 'slow' to be then?

Sadly we have all had to come to a new realization of what slow means. And your current taper is faster than what is recommended here. Why not consider taking a long hold now and spend time getting informed with the links here at sa.

You might like to read this link about slow

and this one

Tips for tapering off Lexapro (escitalopram)

 

Did you realize that wdl symptoms can be delayed sometimes for months. Many people have not been informed of this and so several months later when wdl hits people run back to the doctor to seek answers and are often hurried out of the doctors office with a new prescription for a new drug pushed into their hands. The process is then repeated a year or two later.

 

So glad you have found sa

it would be worth your while to check out member and moderator Brassmonkeys  taper plan. It will be very insightful. He is also a success story.

 

Shalom

nz11

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I suffer from severe gastrointestinal problems following medication and therefore want to withdraw "fast"

Do you mean that withdrawal symptoms can start after six months or a year? If so please explain

How do I find the story of  Brassmonkeys

And why do you recommend his story?

Thanks

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Hi Lorin, welcome to SA. Yes that is Brassmonkey's story. He is tapering very gradually with smaller cuts. Often when there are side effects they lessen as the dose lowers but going too fast adds withdrawal to the side effects.  How are you feeling now? 

 

Why taper 10% http://survivingantidepressants.org/index.php?/topic/1024-why-taper-by-10-of-my-dosage/

 

Here is the section with success stories. They are people who have recovered from C/T or from too fast tapers, also those who have tapered slowly and reached the end of their taper.  There are some who have tapered faster than we recommend but they are mostly people who have not taken the drugs for very long. There are no guarantees because everyone is different. Most of the people here found us after they suffer withdrawal, or want to start tapering. 

 

http://survivingantidepressants.org/index.php?/forum/28-success-stories-recovery-from-withdrawal/

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Hi Lorin,

 

I've merged the new Intro topic you made with the first one you made.  Each member has only 1 Intro topic where they can ask questions and journal their progress.  This keeps your questions, the answers and your history in one place.

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Oops sorry cc i fell for the (school boy error) trap of not checking if the poster had another intro.

 

Lorin you seem to like Breggin...i do to. He is number one on my heroes list.

I think Breggin's 2013 book you noted in your post #1 is imo a great book.  I learned a lot from reading it. However one must work very hard to find anything in the book about tapering. It is almost silent in this area which makes one think the book is wrongly titled. the word tapering doesnt even appear in the books index.

 

imo Breggin appears to be revising his tapering views.

In his 2007 book he talks about 10 steps of 10%. That is very different from what is rec at sa.

 

No disrespect to Breggin but i think in time his views have/are moving towards those espoused by sa and prior online places....in that its 10% of the previous dose per (4 weeks )month next reduction if and only if stable.

 

In his 2013 book 'Psychiatric drug withdrawal' he does mention tapering on pg 195-196 he says [underlining mine] this:

 

..."[start] with a small dose reduction that hopefully will be endured without much discomfort. This can be viewed as a 'test reduction' aimed at finding the patient's comfort level. The size of the first dose reduction, and subsequent ones, will vary from drug to drug, from person to person, and from time to time with the same person. However it is often possible to talk with patients about their past experiences with lower doses, and to arrive at what seems like a safe and comfortable dose reduction. In my experience, it is often in the range of 10% – 15% of the most recent dose. If nothing untoward occurs after the first reduction, it is often a good idea to wait a few weeks and then reduce the dose again, depending on how the patient is feeling. Once the process has begun, in the absence of a grave necessity for stopping the drug as quickly as possible, the patient's response to each drug reduction ends up determining the length of the withdraw."  

 

imo it appears that (the pharma myth destroying battleship) Breggin has shifted in his view, not (the lighthouse) sa.

His views are now very similar to sa's,

 

ok Breggin  says 10-15 % of the 'most recent dose' [ooh that appears to be a change but it is not clear for ongoing reductions is it], sa is going for 10% (of the previous dose ) which has shown to be better for some.

 

Beggin says wait a few weeks before dropping again, sa says wait for four and see how you are going.

Breggin says the patients response to each reduction is priority and this is what sa says. snap!

 

Many here have to taper at less than 10%. Breggin also talks about "making very small dose reductions" and "using fluid preparations" or " removing pellets from a capsule".

I think from memory BM has tapered at about an average (from memory) of 6% per month.

BM has thought up a great ingenious tapering method and its proving it to be a winner.

 

The world authority Healy is referring people to sa for withdrawal help. So that tells you something.

 

"Absent an emergency that requires rapid withdrawal, there are no formulae for how long it takes to withdrawal safely, comfortably, and effectively from a psychiatric drug. In the Person- centred approach, the patient's experience will determine the time it takes to complete the withdrawal. It all depends on how the patient responds from dose reduction to dose reduction. Therefore it cannot be determined in advance how long a drug withdrawal will take. Breggin 2013.

 

"Hurried withdrawals are often associated with the prescription of other psychiatric drugs to replace those from which the patient is being withdrawn" Breggin 2013

 

"It is now recognised that withdrawal reactions from the new and often more stimulating antidepressants present serious hazards."

Breggin 2013

 

I suffer from severe gastrointestinal problems following medication and therefore want to withdraw "fast"
gastrointestinal problems are a withdrawal symptom and perhaps a sign that you are tapering too fast
Do you have any other symptoms...like crying spells say
Please read this link from Glenmullens wdl checklist
 
10 year exposure is significant  and unless you taper safely allowing the moderators here to walk you through a safe taper you will may face what Breggin terms "many roadblocks and hardships." But it doesnt have to be this way.
 
nz11

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hi nz11 my gastri simptoms are from hell ans start from taking the drug not from withdrwall
can you answer please my question i ask you?

thanx

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What does he say by chance that I took a 10-year medication?

can you answer please my question i ask you?

Is this the question you refer to?

I assume you are asking 'what does Breggin say about how to taper for someone who has been on the drug for 10 year'?

I thought i had answered this ...refer quotes above..

 

He doesnt give a (10 year) term specific tapering formula...

 

"Although exact lengths of time cannot be predicted if the patient has been on the drug for a lengthy period, perhaps a year or more, then a successful withdrawal will probably take considerably longer than most prescribers believe." pg 195

 

There is no tapering formula specific to a term of 'x' years exposure.

People who have only been on the drug for two months say will no doubt have an easy and shorter taper time than someone who has been on for 10 years, with switches and failed taper attempts.

 

The best one that is giving people the best chance to get off is the method at  sa of 10% of previous dose per 4 week interval. So for someone who was on 20mg then to get to 0.5 mg you will need to be tapering for 2.8 years.

 

hi nz11 my gastri simptoms are from hell ans start from taking the drug not from withdrwall

Start from taking what drug ? zoloft or lexapro.

If they started from taking lexapro how do you know that they arent a result of a too fast taper off zoloft?

look who am i to question you on your need to get of this drug for medical reasons at a much faster pace than is considered safe by many here.

If your doctor has decided that it is an emergency and that you have to taper faster then sobeit. However you should be discussing this with your doctor and following his expertise and plan and support that he will provide in whatever form that takes. He will be providing support right? Or maybe you should be doing this in a hospital environment.

 

Why are you asking these questions here? Did you ask your doctor for Breggins taper plan ?what did he say?

Does your doctor know your current tapering plan ?...did he decide for medical reasons that you have to taper fast? or this just something you have decided without a doctor consultation? did he give you a taper plan or is it all your idea?

 

nz11

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hi nz 11

in israel dr dont know about 10% taper plan son i cant get help and support from them
1.i asked you if you know sucsses story of medium taper here i will be happy to see

2.I suffer from severe gastrointestinal problems following medication and therefore want to withdraw "fast"

Do you mean that withdrawal symptoms can start after six months or a year? If so please explain
 
thanx ;)

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Thanks Lorin for clarifying your question.

You mean  i spent 3 hours yesterday reading Breggin for you and for no reason? ugh!!

No worries i like reading Breggin anyways.

Okay ....

1. I was in McDonalds once and the person in front of me asked the cashier 'How big is the small?'

    So i ask you how big is the 'medium'? Answer that for me then.

2. So you are saying you have not been diagnosed as a person who needs to taper fast for medical reasons then? Okaaay...

Well let me gently say that if you think your current (undiagnosed) gastri symptoms are from hell then when it comes to the outcomes of a fast taper after 10 years use you may be forced to do some serious recomputing (said in a very gentle non-urgent calm female voice) on the definition of hell because as they say in show biz ...you aint seen nothin yet.

 

3. Yes wdl symptoms can start after several months and yes i do believe it could be a year also. It could even be 7 mnths say.

Its explained better than i ever could in the 'brain remodelling link from cc above. Are you reading these links that are being given to you? They are very informative you know.

You tapered zoloft over what appears to be a 16 week period but if you follow sa advice you may have taken taken 3.5 years to get to 1mg that is by the way what i would call 'medium' . It looks to me like you put up with wdl for 7 months and then went back to the doctor only to leave with a new addictive chemical to cover the wdl off the first one. 

 

Its hard to believe that doctors are totally clueless about these drugs but it does appear to be that way. So where will you go for advice ?

Well if you wanted to learn skydiving you might ask people who have done it and landed safely right?

Their voice would trump all other know-it all voices of nonskydivers right. So you have come to the right place then.

 

You could consider finding a new doctor ...maybe ask Joseph Ben-Sheetrit he is currently doing a study at a university in Jerusalem i believe maybe he can point you in the directin of a doctor who is competent.

Then again you could always listen to sa. As i said to the person in front of me at McDonalds that day...'take a risk'!

 

nz11

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Hi dear

Do not be angry with me please

You're funny with your comments

Even so, it's hard for me to speak English because I do not speak English. Please try to understand me

Because of this communication problems

1.i didnt understand what you say here

"Well let me gently say that if you think your current (undiagnosed) gastri symptoms are from hell then when it comes to the outcomes of a fast taper after 10 years use you may be forced to do some serious recomputing (said in a very gentle non-urgent calm female voice) on the definition of hell because as they say in show biz ...you aint seen nothin yet."

2.how you know Joseph Ben-Sheetrit?? its interesting, do you have his phone?

3.you say that 3.5 years taper of zoloft will be medium taper???

thanx

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Apologies i didnt know if you were an English speaker or not but assumed you were.

It must be very difficult if this is your second language. You are doing very well. Sorry i wasnt more direct. i should have been more clearer.

 

1. I'm simply saying that if you start to suffer full blown withdrawal from this drug then the suffering may be very difficult and go on for many months and may be unlike anything you have experienced before. In other words ssri is not easy to cope with.

2. I will give you Ben's details

3. Asking 'how big is a medium' is the wrong question to ask...its not about small, medium or large its all about a 'harm reduction' approach. 

 

Its difficult to imagine the harm that can occur by (a too fast) withdrawal until you have experienced it.

 

I hope this is clearer.

 

I do hope you stay with sa and keep updating your journey here.

 

nz11

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Hi Lorin.  Found your introduction page(card).  Sorry for any confusion caused.

 

Best,

 

mmt

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Posted (edited)

Hi Lorin! I have been using Dr. Breggin's taper method since last summer. Things have been going well. I am now down to 25mg of celexa from 60mg. I tried to deviate from his method and go a little faster, but with disasterous results. I have been sticking with the 10% method and I even go more than a month for each stepdown depending on how I feel. I think it is a good method for me and SLOW and steady wins the race! Good luck!

 hiiiii can we talk in privete?

Edited by scallywag
moved from Breggin's 10% taper topic

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Posted (edited)

yes. let me know when. If you can it may help more people if we don't talk in private but if you really  need to it is no problem. I have sent you some messages.Thanks Lorin and take care!

Edited by scallywag
moved from Breggin's 10% taper topic

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Lorin,

 

My best friend lives in Israel!  I just noticed you are there. I have asked them to translate Hebrew into English so your messages can get to us so we can read them.  VERY IMPORTANT: Can you read my messages by putting it into a Hebrew to English Translator? I have written you a message and will sent it if you can do that.It will make it much easier on my friend that way.

 

My friends son would translate, but I need to hear a reply from them, he is in school and very busy, and you would send short messages in Hebrew on the thread, and I will send it to him, but not yet. I need his permission first.

 

Do you have diarrhea, gas, constipation, vomiting?

 

Thank you,

Skeeter

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Hey
Sorry I do not understand you properly
I can translate from Hebrew to English and from English to Hebrew with Google

 

Lorin,

 

My best friend lives in Israel!  I just noticed you are there. I have asked them to translate Hebrew into English so your messages can get to us so we can read them.  VERY IMPORTANT: Can you read my messages by putting it into a Hebrew to English Translator? I have written you a message and will sent it if you can do that.It will make it much easier on my friend that way.

 

My friends son would translate, but I need to hear a reply from them, he is in school and very busy, and you would send short messages in Hebrew on the thread, and I will send it to him, but not yet. I need his permission first.

 

Do you have diarrhea, gas, constipation, vomiting?

 

Thank you,

Skeeter

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Lorin,

 

My friend will help translate, short answers and short questions, please.

 

What stomach problems do you have?

Do you have diarrhea?

Do you have Gas?

Do you have constipation?

Do you vomit after taking pill?

Do you have nausea?

What else is wrong when you take the pill?

 

Do you take Lexapro, or does the bottle say only "escitalopram"?  Escitalopram is the generic.

 

You have government healthcare, why do you not see doctor for your stomach problems?

 

I might know what the problem is, if you are on the generic, it can give severe stomach problems. I had the same problem, I was very sick and lost weight.

 

If you understand, reply in Hebrew.

 

Thank you,

Skeeter

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i dont n

 

Lorin,
 
My friend will help translate, short answers and short questions, please.
 
What stomach problems do you have?
Do you have diarrhea?
Do you have Gas?
Do you have constipation?
Do you vomit after taking pill?
Do you have nausea?
What else is wrong when you take the pill?
 
Do you take Lexapro, or does the bottle say only "escitalopram"?  Escitalopram is the generic.
 
You have government healthcare, why do you not see doctor for your stomach problems?
 
I might know what the problem is, if you are on the generic, it can give severe stomach problems. I had the same problem, I was very sick and lost weight.
 
If you understand, reply in Hebrew.
 
Thank you,
Skeeter

i dont need help with translate
1.i take lexapro

2.it make me hard to poop hard to free gas so i always loating and go to the bw 15 times a day
and somtimes i get diarrhea and somtimes constipatiom 

the main problem is i cant do free and hoe poop and gas so its stuck in my bowel and the cause diarrhea

3. i have ibs but the lexapro cause the ibs 10x worse

4. did you took lexapro?what it does to your stomach???

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Lorin,

If you do not understand anything in this message, tell me know and my friend will translate, because this is very important.  Please do not stop taking the medicine until we are done talking!

 

Do you take brand name Lexapro made by Teva or do you take a generic made by a different company?  On your pill bottle label it will say "Lexapro" if it is brand name, if not, it may say "escitalopram" for the generic, or will have another name, as different countries have different names. I do know Israel has a couple of different names. I need the exact name on the bottle , as well as the manufacturer  it is very important that I know this about the name.  If it has a different name on the bottle, let me know.  If it is escitalopram, does the bottle also say "Aurobindo Pharmacies" on the bottle as well? The company Teva (in Israel) does not have lactose in the coating, and that might be very important.

 

If you come off of this medicine as fast as you have been, you have a huge chance of being sick, laying in your bed for 2 or more years, possibly. This is why we are so worried about you.  There is no pill or medicine to fix this to make you better if you continue to come off Lexapro too fast!  Lexapro is 2-4 times stronger than other antidepressants.  You must not come off more than 10% of the previous month's dose to help make sure you will not become very sick for years, possibly.  No doctor can help you feel better if you come off too fast.  You have to slow down to avoid this, in my opinion, from personal experience and experience of those on this site!  If you think Lexapro makes you feel 10 times worse, coming off too quickly can make you feel 20 times worse, possibly for years, maybe!  We have seen it happen.  One person here is 7 years off of Lexapro and is still very sick. Please do not stop taking until we are done talking.

 

Yes, the problems you have are the exact issues I had.  it also felt like my abdomen had snakes inside, I felt so sick, and felt like I was going to vomit.  My stomach was huge with gas, and it hurt!  I came of antidepressants and switched a benzo too fast, and it took me 18 months to start feeling better.

 

Thank you!

Skeeter

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hi

thank for your care
but i dont like your message

You are too aggressive and bossy
I can not continue to suffer with my digestive system
So far I've lowered 30% a month and got along well in the last six months
If it was dangerous then I would feel what you were saying
So do not put me into paranoia please
I do not like this method of intimidation
Good Day

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Lorin,

I apologize, I was not trying to be bossy,  My real, kind, soft words will be coming via personal translator to explain everything, and explain a way to help you.  I am doing research now to help you while she is translating, I have had problems with the translators not taking extra words that soften my meaning, so that is why I use her, so my real words will come to you.

 

Skeeter

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i dont want your care and you words

i dont want to feel more anxety and obsess about taper and wd
i feel not good with your care
its make me unsecure
so keep your obsess in your place, i dont need this paranoia of yours

this end of session

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Are there any questions you have for our other moderators or members? 

if they see a question, they will reply, not me.

End of Session.

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