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Ryder

Ryder: Taking carnitine with SSRI's

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Ryder

Hi guys,

 

This question has to do with SSRI's and supplements.

 

I was diagnosed with Chronic OCD in January 2015. I have been on and off medication between 2009-2015.

Since 2015 I was prescribed 200mg (Sertraline/Zoloft) Daytime and 2mg Clonazepam for night time sleep. At the back-end-of 2016 I felt that I was

well enough to come of all medications as I just felt able enough to cope on 100mg after a while. I did Cold Turkey for most of it before admittingly and slowly going on the lower dose of 100mg Sertraline.

 

I was afterward sent to a Dr who specialised in withdrawing people from medications.

 

She prescribed:

 

- L-Carneitine (300 mg)

- CoQ10 (200 mg)

- N-Acetylcysteine

- Vitamin C

- Selenium

- Magnesium.

- A Gluten Free Diet.

 

With Gluten diet, I did not stick to this religiously as some of the books advocated here on this forum. Mainly Elaine Gotschall's Breaking the Viscious Cycle. (Specific Carbohydrate Diet) and the GAPS Diet advocated by Dr Natasha Campbell-Mcbride. I am very skeptical when i read over these diets but since my Dad was on the diet, whatever was in the Pantry, I ate. I wasn't religious about it though if I ordered takeout.

 

Back on topic, I reduced the supplements to L-Carneteine and CoQ10 in combination with SSRI Zoloft/Sertraline (100mg). I found that during the time taken them, I had trouble with Cognition and motor skills, driving, runnng and excercise. I also noticed that I couldn't stop feeling dizzy although they are supposed to aide mitochondria in the brain which the Zoloft dulls down. I also noticed real bad insomnia during the time taken these aided supplements.

 

Has anyone else had success with L-Carneteine and CoQ10 prescribed with Zoloft? It seems that people are having great success with these two supplements to rave review, I am just wondering if Carneteine or CoQ10 has worked for anyone to either reduce withdrawal symptoms off SSRIs & Zoloft or taper off completely.

 

 

**Note. I have looked through the other posts here, but most vary in opinion, so I just want this question answered.

 

 

Many thanks.

Ryder.

 

 

 

 

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Asjf

Have you checked out examine.com?

You can search just about any supplement there and get a lot of info. I don't see any evidence of CoQ10 having any cognitive benefits. L-Carnitine had a bad effect of me. Caused severe anxiety--which is understandable considering it can be stimulating.

 

https://examine.com

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Altostrata

Welcome, Ryder.
 
I've moved your topic to the Introductions forum, as your Introductions topic. Please bookmark it or follow it; you can post your questions and updates in this topic.
 
That practitioner recommended an unusual bunch of supplements. I can't say I've ever seen that before, or why it might assist withdrawal from sertraline or any other SSRI.
 
If any supplement makes you feel odd in a bad way, I would stop taking it.
 
Are you interested in going off sertraline? Please read

Why taper by 10% of my dosage?

Tips for tapering off Zoloft (sertraline)
 
Our basic supplement kit:
 
King of supplements: Omega-3 fatty acids (fish oil)

Magnesium, nature's calcium channel blocker
 
If you have questions about other supplements, please go to the Symptoms and self-care forum and use search.

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Ryder

Thanks Alta & Asjf for responding and apologies for not getting back to you sooner.

 

You know during the 4-days when I was checking back in on this post I did some own research which included seeing other doctors and even the chemists who sell this crap. The majority was of the opinion that it wouldn't help. Exactly what my original GP had suggested but my father was super keen on this person as Mr Fixit.

 

What the chemists and other doctors said when I asked them about the interaction of an anti-depressant Zoloft with these supplements:

  • - Acel-L-Carneteine should not be taken in conjunction with an anti-depressant as it will stimulate your mind.
  • - Depends what brand you take and absorbtion for the body. 10 different fricken brands for the 1 supplement and in capsules.
  • - A different doctor said they will have NO effect and suggested I just pursue meditation, yoga and excercise and really come off the medication really slowly.
  • We had a documentary come out in Australia on the ABC recently called 'Swallowing it' on the programme Four Corners. It mentioned the un-benefitial affects of CoQ10 studied by a group of students at Monash Uni in Melb.

What has happened until now:

 

I had stopped taking them as Alta suggested and on my GP's advice. I then kept going on a week and back a week which I felt really bad about because I kept getting chronic nervous and muscle pains. I thought this may be from withdrawing to fast.

 

After a while I stopped for a month, saw a nutritionist who just gave me a loaf of bread to start off in the morning and while it didn't fix things. I felt a whole lot better. It's along the lines of the SCD diet that was advocated on Elaine Gotschalls book. I believe most of these things can be found through diet.

 

Yesterday: I was again suffering a usual copybook bout of withdrawal pain and I did use some CoQ10 and L-Carneteine felt like shite. I swear before I heard of such a thing called supplements, now I am walking backwards. The only positive being that I remember a worse time in my life so I know that I'll get through this, albeit in time.

 

To answer your q's:

 

I am interested in getting off sertraline and I have read your guides to getting off it at length. When I stopped first time overseas, I felt brilliant. Albeit for a month or two so I know that whilst I do need them, I know that I can do without them. That was the good part of going CT. So for the meantime, I am thinking of going back to my original dose of 200mg to stablize and like everyone else who has gotten through it, get off this boat last.

 

Ryder.


 

 

 

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scallywag

Ryder -- please do not return to 200 mg in a single updose. The drug changes, dose changes and cold turkey may have sensitized your CNS (central nervous system) for the near future.

 

If you still feel the need to increase dose, would you be willing to try "sneaking up" on a dose that works by increasing by 10 - 25 mg?  You could hold that dose for 3-4 weeks to see what improvement if any you notice. Making your increase gradual will likely allow you to stabilize at a lower dose, thereby shortening any eventual taper in the future.

Edited by scallywag

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Ryder
On 6/26/2017 at 1:09 AM, scallywag said:

Ryder -- please do not return to 200 mg in a single updose. The drug changes, dose changes and cold turkey may have sensitized your CNS (central nervous system) for the near future.

 

If you still feel the need to increase dose, would you be willing to try "sneaking up" on a dose that works by increasing by 10 - 25 mg?  You could hold that dose for 3-4 weeks to see what improvement if any you notice. Making your increase gradual will likely allow you to stabilize at a lower dose, thereby shortening any eventual taper in the future.

 

Hi Scallywag,

 

Thanks for your response to my original post. I am still on 100mg of Zoloft daytime. Still thinking of going back to 200mg. Is there a reason you suggested to increase slowly back up to 10-25mg. Did you have a similar experience?

 

Would really appreciate your immediate response and apologies for not replying to you sooner,

Dave.

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scallywag

Ryder, when you started taking sertraline your CNS (central nervous system) made changes to adapt to the presence of the drug. When you went cold turkey (200 mg to 0 mg overnight), your CNS had to make a HUGE number of adjustments.  Many of those adjustments show up as what we call withdrawal symptoms.  You've been taking 100 mg for several months now (since May or June, your signature isn't clear about when you reinstated), your CNS has likely made more changes. As I wrote, it's better to "sneak" up or down on doses rather than make dramatic changes. The greater the change, the greater the risk of symptoms.

 

I have not personally made such a dramatic dose change but have seen others do so to varying effect. There's a reasonable risk that jumping back up to 200 mg all at once may trigger more and/or worse symptoms.

 

Here are a few links that describe this process in helpful ways:

How your brain responds to psychiatric drugs - aka "Brain remodeling"

Youtube video, 4 minutes: Healing from antidepressants

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Ryder
1 hour ago, scallywag said:

Ryder, when you started taking sertraline your CNS (central nervous system) made changes to adapt to the presence of the drug. When you went cold turkey (200 mg to 0 mg overnight), your CNS had to make a HUGE number of adjustments.  Many of those adjustments show up as what we call withdrawal symptoms.  You've been taking 100 mg for several months now (since May or June, your signature isn't clear about when you reinstated), your CNS has likely made more changes. As I wrote, it's better to "sneak" up or down on doses rather than make dramatic changes. The greater the change, the greater the risk of symptoms.

 

I have not personally made such a dramatic dose change but have seen others do so to varying effect. There's a reasonable risk that jumping back up to 200 mg all at once may trigger more and/or worse symptoms.

 

Here are a few links that describe this process in helpful ways:

How your brain responds to psychiatric drugs - aka "Brain remodeling"

Youtube video, 4 minutes: Healing from antidepressants

 

You are correct. I re-instated 100mg permanantly. I came back from overseas from in June 2016. And re-instated from about December 2016.

 

During the time between coming back and re-instating to 100mg (from June 2016 - Dec 2016) i was gradually tuning up from 0.25 mg to .5mg as I felt the effects of Sert to strong in public spaces.

 

I have been told by my Pyschiastrist to re-instate 200mg. When i go to 150mg I find it not tolerable where there is emotional, mental, pain. Most of this I believe may have been caused by taking supplements (CoQ10, L-Carniteine, NAC) instead of my medicine, as a Naturopath explained that Sertraline was designed only for a short use of time in the 70's and explained that I didn't have an option.

 

I know that jumping between doses or taking them inconsistently is wrong. That is key from what I''ve learnt from the forums on SA. I previously just thought it to be heresay and am stricter about missing a dose of 100mg.

 

Thank you for the links you have provided, particularly the second one. I am seeing my GP today as I still am just not at all coping on Sertraline. So SA recommends slow slow slow which is how the brain operates. In your experience s ok to go back on Sertraline if my Doc suggests this? I was hoping she'd get me onto a new family of SSRI's and forge a new path as I feel I have built a certain tolerance to the drug.

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Ryder

Hi all,

 

I have read the topic >

 

However still I am confused.

Currently taking an SSRI in Zoloft 100mg and Clonazepam (Benzo) 4mg day-time.

In this instance do I taper off the accelerator (Zoloft) or break (Clonazepam) first ? I have CT'd once before and it might seem light a stupid question. But I don't want to get this wrong as the naturopath that I visited suggested that I taper my Clonazepam down from 4-2mg first. :excl:

 

Sincerely,

Ryder.

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ChessieCat

There is a short explanation here http://survivingantidepressants.org/topic/300-important-topics-in-the-tapering-forum-and-faq/ which might help:

 

Taking multiple psych drugs? Which drug to taper first?
If you're not having an adverse reaction from the other medications, taper the most activating drug first. This is usually an antidepressant or stimulant (ADHD drug).

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Ryder

Thanks ChessieCat.

 

I think you are bang on right about this. I am going back to my Doc this so someone can watch over what I'm doing regardless if I I'm right or wrong and want to get off this drug!

But my general feeling is, it is the SSRII giving me Pelters.

 

Your answer is actually just basic common sense. But my goodness do I need it as I just can't think clearly atm.

I'm hanging in there. With one step forward at a time.

 

Thanks for your no-nonsense reply :).

 

Dave.

 

 

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Ryder

Hi everyone Chessie and everyone here on SA,

 

I tried to start the tapering process of 100mg of sert by alternating between 100mg-50mg from day to day over the past month. Then 50mg for a week.  Before alternating between 50mg/25mg etc.

 

I feel like I don’t have the stamina to take 100mg Or 50mg and will often stop intermittently. I was originally diagnosed for a 200mg dose but haven’t taken it for a since September 2016 over a year now and feel better.

 

 My symptoms include sore eyes, muscle tension like cramps, racing thoughts, spasms, insomnia, lethargy and an overall sense of confusion doing daily tasks; memory and cognitive problems walking, driving, cycling. My anxiety is definitely caused intrusive thoughts and I try to tackle head on and this seems to diffuse tension. Otherwise, I feel so frustrated that my body is acting one way and my mind another that I am a shadow of my old self and hardly leave the house anymore except to walk the dog and for excercise. ☹️

 

I want to taper but know I need which dose that is least distressing for me to stabilise.  I have been reading here that stability at first is key. 

 

My my doctor has recommended that I switch to Effexor but I’m not depressed. I’ve read so many stories of people trying to get off it, he said that Zoloft is the “lowest gun in the barrel” pre-scribed to patients. I was thinking the hell with Effexor as I have taken almost every drug there is to take, Zyprexa, Seroquil, Rispirodone, Valium, Cymbalta and others I can’t even remember. Nothing given to me has worked. Only nothing works. 

 

I just want want to know what dosage I should stabilise on of Zoloft, is it worth going up to 200mg of Zoloft again, stick with 100mg/50mg Zoloft or belatedly cross-taper to Effexor 75mg.

 

Just some simple guidance as I am really lost with all this information here. 

 

 

Thanks,

Dave.

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AliG

Hi Dave.  DO NOT TAKE YOUR MEDICATION EVERY OTHER DAY TO TAPER.


If your medication is not designed to take every other day (very few are), don't try to taper by alternating doses. The half-lives of almost all psychiatric drugs are too short for this to make sense. It causes the amount of the medication in your bloodstream to go up and down, battering your nervous system, and makes withdrawal worse.

Your brain likes stability, to be treated gently. The object is to gradually accommodate it to lower and lower dosages. Don't throw it off a cliff every day. Move it slowly down a ramp by gradually decreasing dosage by an amount it may hardly notice .

 

How long have you been alternating doses? You say over a month - do you have a more accurate date?

 

We will have to work out what dose to take daily as a way of stabilizing. Once we have more information from you we can establish that daily dose.

 

Your nervous system has taken a battering and now it just needs consistency. There is no magic dose : it's consistency that your brain craves.

 

Please let us know the exact time frame.

 

Ali

 

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ChessieCat

Please follow these instructions about how we prefer your signature to be.  Please include your tapering method and also update it whenever you make a change so it remains current.  Many members, including the moderators, experience brain fog and it helps to have the information is a way that we can easily see your history without having to read through it.  Thank you.

 

A request: Would you summarize your history in a signature - ALL drugs, doses, dates, and discontinuations & reinstatements, in the last 12-24 months particularly?

  • Please leave out symptoms and diagnoses.
  • A list is easier to understand than one or multiple paragraphs. 
  • Any drugs prior to 24 months ago can just be listed with start and stop years.
  • Please use actual dates or approximate dates (mid-June, Late October) rather than relative time frames (last week, 3 months ago)
  • Spell out months, e.g. "October" or "Oct."; 9/1/2016 can be interpreted as Jan. 9, 2016 or Sept. 1, 2016.
  • Link to Account Settings – Create or Edit a signature.

 

I'm really pleased that Ali realised that you have been alternating doses.  It is very important to take the same dose at about the same time on a daily basis.  This may help you understand this:  Skipping Days vs Every Day Dosing Graph

 

This topic which Alto previously provided explains how to get the dose you need:

 

Tips for tapering off Zoloft (sertraline)

 

Changing to a different drug is not a good idea.  There are several reasons for this.  You can end up with withdrawal symptoms from the first drug as well as start up/side effects and sometimes a bad reaction from the second drug.  If you experience issues you will not know what is causing the problems.

 

As Ali mentioned, once you provide the dates of your different doses we can assess what daily dose you could try taking.  We try and suggest the lowest dose possible and request you to keep notes of symptoms which improve/worsen so that we can assess whether to stay on that dose or to increase it by a very small amount.

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Ryder

Just adding in the details now.

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Ryder

I feel a bit sad and even shocked!! having to write down all the Meds I had been taking all of this time. When I was younger, I didn't realize it could have such brutal withdrawal effects on the body. I seemed to somehow think I was invincible. I never used re-creational drugs apart from the occassional smoke and Alcohol. That is it! Otherwise I feel completely ashamed writing all of this down, I didn't even think I went through that many drugs more than my local nightspot in my city would be given. Although it is in the past and I can say that I still perform above average, I won't slate myself going on the Zoloft. That was the drug i needed to stabilize everything. It saved me in an odd kinda way for stability even though you certainly don't need any of these drugs to begin with.

 

So this is my detailed history, some of which has only now sprung up just writing it down.

 

When I'm on 100mg of Zoloft I feel functional but get really intense cramps and sore eyes in the back of my eyes. It's a fear I have had of facing people in face-to-face social situations which I guess has become exacerbated. When I'm on the 50mg, the cramps go away. But I get repetitive thoughts like a broken record, chronic insomnia even on the Clonazepam. As with the supplements, they just minimize the effect of the pain that I feel. CoQ10 and L-Carnitine.

 

Based on your advice, you feel that I should stay on the Zoloft and at 100mg? I am really struggling at present even to complete my online degree which I have about a year to finish.

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Ryder
On 20/10/2017 at 10:22 AM, AliG said:

Hi Dave.  DO NOT TAKE YOUR MEDICATION EVERY OTHER DAY TO TAPER.


If your medication is not designed to take every other day (very few are), don't try to taper by alternating doses. The half-lives of almost all psychiatric drugs are too short for this to make sense. It causes the amount of the medication in your bloodstream to go up and down, battering your nervous system, and makes withdrawal worse.

Your brain likes stability, to be treated gently. The object is to gradually accommodate it to lower and lower dosages. Don't throw it off a cliff every day. Move it slowly down a ramp by gradually decreasing dosage by an amount it may hardly notice .

 

How long have you been alternating doses? You say over a month - do you have a more accurate date?

 

We will have to work out what dose to take daily as a way of stabilizing. Once we have more information from you we can establish that daily dose.

 

Your nervous system has taken a battering and now it just needs consistency. There is no magic dose : it's consistency that your brain craves.

 

Please let us know the exact time frame.

 

Ali

 

 

Hi Ali, I have been alternating my dosage for over 10 months now from December 2016 onwards. I know this is not good but I always get to a point where I can feel my stomach churn, I'm not eating, somehow the body is storing fat at the same time if I have one meal a day, and getting some rashes like my dog is sleeping on my bed.

 

Edited by ChessieCat
removed blasphemy

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ChessieCat
3 minutes ago, Ryder said:

I have been alternating my dosage for over 10 months now

 

Your poor brain!  If the doses you have been alternating are 100mg and 50mg then you could try taking 75mg on a daily basis.  You might find that once you start taking the same dose daily that you will feel improvement.

 

You could then hold for several months (anything from 4-6 months) or wait until you finish your degree before you commence tapering.  Tapering by 10% of the previous dose with a hold of about 4 weeks allows the brain to adapt to not getting as much of the drug and hopefully means minimal withdrawal symptoms.

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Ryder

Thanks Chessie,

 

It's ok, i've felt better n' I've felt worse. I don't want anyone's sympathy though. Alot of this was my own doing and some of it was out of my hands at the same time. What's done is done.

 

I just want to move through this period and live to tell the tale. So you suggest 75mg and stabilise?. In the back of my mind I want to get of this drug completely, but i guess this is the same for everyone. And I have a track-record of doing just that.

 

Zoloft as I understand it is the safest drug to stabilise on as it is one of the oldest or doesn't make a bar of difference?

 

Thanks C,

 

Dave.

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baroquep
3 hours ago, Ryder said:

Thanks Chessie,

 

It's ok, i've felt better n' I've felt worse. I don't want anyone's sympathy though. Alot of this was my own doing and some of it was out of my hands at the same time. What's done is done.

 

I just want to move through this period and live to tell the tale. So you suggest 75mg and stabilise?. In the back of my mind I want to get of this drug completely, but i guess this is the same for everyone. And I have a track-record of doing just that.

 

Zoloft as I understand it is the safest drug to stabilise on as it is one of the oldest or doesn't make a bar of difference?

 

Thanks C,

 

Dave.

 

Hi there, ChessieCat has given you very good advice and I would start to take 75mg every day at the same time of the day until you stabilize.  I doubt that it makes much of a difference regarding which drug you are trying to stabilize on as I think the central nervous system responds in the same way regardless of the drug, but I could be wrong.  

I'm going to attach a few links so that you have an idea of what to expect over the coming months and how you will know that you are being to stabilize.  I would keep track of my daily symptom pattern by using one of the guides below or you could use this thread as a diary of sorts to track your progress.  Please do let us know how you are doing.  

Stabilising After a Reduction - What Does That Mean?
After Reinstating or Updating - How Long to Stabilize

Rate Symptoms Daily to Check Patterns and Progress  
Windows and Waves Pattern of Stabilization

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Ryder

Hi guys,

 

I just wanted to check-in and state that I returned to a higher dose of 100mg to stabilise and do feel better. 75mg For me Is not my corrrect dosage. Still taking NAC, CoQ10, L-Carnitine to supplement the Pharma drugs.

 

Baroqueep, thanks for the links. Those patterns suggested in the links are to be expected now, I just have to accept some of the pain and grow a thick skin.

 

I do have a question about liquid tapering. I saw in Alto's link.  100mg of Sertraline does not = 100 ML. If someone could give me the correct formula (Maths) of how to calculate a 10% taper through liquid, or a rough guide, I think I can then formulate a long-term plan.

 

So if someone mathematically inclined could look at the following 3-calculations:

 

10% 100mg = 90mg Sertraline.

10% 90mg (Correct if wrong) 90 x 0.1 or 10% =  81mg Sertraline.

10% 81mg. 81mg *0.1 or 10% = 72.9mg of Sertraline.

 

Corrections please if my maths is no good.

 

Secondly, a formula to convert correct dose from Mg to ML for a liquid taper in 10% liquid concentrate. I have read that Sertraline tablets when left easily dissolve in water which is good news. Failing which if this don't work, I want to document my Psychiatrist change on to Effexor which I just would rather not do.

 

Thanks all,

Dave.

 

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ChessieCat
35 minutes ago, Ryder said:

Hi Rob, I've been reading over your story as I also take 100mg of Zoloft but am now finding that my body is not finding it tolerable anymore. I'm glad to see that is is possible to work your way down, albiet with some patience and grit.


May I ask what weight scale you are using and/or where did you get it from? The scales I have been ordering online have not been fit for purpose so far as the tablets are so light.

 

I am in my mid-twenties now like you were when you first took the drug and have been on Zoloft for almost 3-years now. I don't want to waste another day. I have also been looking at liquid tapering but I don't want to get the measurements wrong.

 

Sincerely,

Dave.

 

Making a liquid from Zoloft tablets is very simple.  If you dissolve a 100mg Zoloft tablet in 100mg of water, each 1ml of liquid = 1mg of drug.  So to make your first reduction you would extract 10ml = 10mg which will leave you with a dose of 90mg.

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Ryder

Hi Chessie,

 

Thanks for answering my question about convering Mg to Ml.

 

As I understood the old textbook way 10mg ≠ 10 Ml. Unless you are taking into account the 100mg volume of the water as well. I sound like a friggin nerd but I literally am in quite a bit of pain at the moment, and it's hard for me to focus & calculate and is something I really don't want to make any more worse. :(

 

My understanding was:

 

10mg=0.01ml
100mg=0.1ml
1000mg=1ml

 

Apologies if I am wrong here Chessie.

 

Sincerely,

Dave.

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ChessieCat

I will admit that I don't understand what you have posted.  I will explain in further detail:

 

100ml water : 100mg Zoloft tablet

 

Divide both sides by 100 therefore 1ml liquid = 1mg dose

 

So extracting (dispose) 10ml of liquid (= 10mg) leaves (approx) 90ml of liquid (= 90mg)

 

As long as you do it the same way every time you will be getting a consistent dose.

 

The next reduction dose would be 81mg (90mg x 0.90 which is a 10% reduction of the previous dose)

 

Therefore you would extract and dispose of 19ml to get (approx) 81ml of liquid (=81mg)

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Ryder
On 11/13/2017 at 10:56 AM, ChessieCat said:

I will admit that I don't understand what you have posted.  I will explain in further detail:

 

100ml water : 100mg Zoloft tablet

 

Divide both sides by 100 therefore 1ml liquid = 1mg dose

 

So extracting (dispose) 10ml of liquid (= 10mg) leaves (approx) 90ml of liquid (= 90mg)

 

As long as you do it the same way every time you will be getting a consistent dose.

 

The next reduction dose would be 81mg (90mg x 0.90 which is a 10% reduction of the previous dose)

 

Therefore you would extract and dispose of 19ml to get (approx) 81ml of liquid (=81mg)

 

You are right. In essence I couldn't get my head picturing the size of water against the small size of a tablet. I've watched the video.

 

Sorry for the headache. Once I get the appropriate 100ml Cylinder with a 10ml Syringe, and a container, I can begin a taper which is one thing I am looking forward to!


Thanks :).

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