DMV64: reinstate Saphris?

[DMV64]

Hi all,

Well, I had my appointment with the new doc today. Generally it went well, he/they seem to be willing to support my tapering off although he had a different methodology and a faster timeline. He did not seem opposed to me going slower however. He did ask where I would like to start and I said with the Geoden. He mentioned the liquid, although it looks like it is not covered by insurance and not stocked at my pharmacy-just hospitals. So then we got into other methods and he suggested mixing the contents of a capsule into one of those snack pack size applesauces and reducing by 10% that way. He suggested either a week or two week reduction schedule. I know this is not what is recommended here. I am wondering people's thoughts...? He did not seem so concerned about the inexact day to day applesauce method. He said sometimes with water titrate the medication sticks to the container. My plan was to water titrate, shake and drink on the 10% method. Although I admit I am not that great at math with the 10% of the dose as it is reduced. I guess the good news is he was very supportive of me coming off these meds and willing to work with me for however long.

I really am hoping some of you will share your thoughts...

-D

 

[DMV64]

10/24with current supplements added

7:00AM: Wake with a no panic

7:15AM: 5mg Vyvanse.   2 teaspoons ground flax seeds, 1 scoop Progreens, Probiotic, 20mg gentle iron, 2 soft gel fish oil Want to add back in Ultrainflammex as IBS symptoms worse. I don't think it seemed to be affecting much.

8am: 1mg Klonopin

9:15: yoga

11:00AM: 100mg gabapentin

12:lunch

12PM:  10 Mg Geoden

3:00PM 1000mg magnesium 2 cap of 500 is citrate.

5:00PM: 100mg gabapentin.

6:00: teach til 9  

9PM Dinner

9PM:   500 magnesium 600mg calcium.

9:30PM: 2 teaspoons ground flax seeds

10:30PM  Will take 2.5mg Saphris with .5 Cogentin at 10 before bed along . And 20 mg omeprazole. 100mg gabapentin. 

[JanCarol]

Hey D -

 

Congratulations on finding a half helpful doctor!  I like the applesauce idea, though I find that gelcaps are more portable.

 

7 hours ago, DMV64 said:

He suggested either a week or two week reduction schedule. I know this is not what is recommended here. I am wondering people's thoughts...?

 

I think he has never been on psych drugs, and doesn't understand the power of them.  He does not understand that neurotransmitters take at least 3 weeks to shift, and if you pile up 1-2 week tapers that by the 6th week you might be in serious strife.

We're about Harm Reduction here - we want you to get through this with the minimum possible symptoms, and we want you to be able to continue working and thriving.  We want you to be able to control your descent - like rappelling down a steep cliff, and we want you to be able to rest when you get symptoms or get tired.  We want to see you succeed!

 

It seems slow and tedious - but as you get the hang of it, you can do this.  4 weeks between drops.  And the last part of the descent is the hardest, so I don't recommend any accelerations as your dose gets lower.  

 

7 hours ago, DMV64 said:

He said sometimes with water titrate the medication sticks to the container. My plan was to water titrate, shake and drink on the 10% method.

 

Yes, that's why you refill the container, swirl it around and drink that too, to get all the "dregs."  SImple!  Really!

 

I think your plan is fine.  Obviously he hasn't experienced tapering, and is making some guesses here - but at least he is friendly to the concept of tapering and willing to let you go as slowly as you want.

 

I've never heard anyone complain that they went too slowly.  I've heard hundreds of complaints that a taper went "too fast."  Keep that in mind as you go.

 

Are you ready for your first taper?

 

 

1 hour ago, DMV64 said:

Want to add back in Ultrainflammex as IBS symptoms worse. I don't think it seemed to be affecting much.

 

I encourage you to find something which does not contain L-tryptophan.  I encourage you to try things - like psyllium or inulin - which are single ingredient remedies.  This thing is a compound - a shotgun approach to your problem.   Additionally - you reacted to serotonin drugs.  Therefore you should avoid L-tryptophan at all costs.

 

When in withdrawal, it is important to only change one ingredient at a time.  Therefore the Ultrainflammex is out until you are done with your taper.    What works for you may be a combination of things, but you will need to build it up one ingredient at a time, to make sure that you don't have reactions. 

 

Here is what others have said about Digestive Problems in Withdrawal and IBS.  You may also want to look into Gluten Sensitivitiy as Wheat (and Dairy) can be inflammatory.  In Australia, we recommend eliminating all FODMAPS (certain types of foods) and then adding them back one at a time.  40% of all IBS cases are helped with a FODMAPS elimination diet.  FODMAPS are discussed in the first link about digestive problems.

You may wish to consider Probiotics, I have a regimen that seems to keep me stable.  (note:  be very careful with soil based probiotics - if they get overabundant, we don't know how to get rid of them!  The lactobacillus and acidophilus strains, the common, healthiest strains will cleanse naturally if you get out of balance)

 

Here's my regimen:  daily I take 2 PB-8 probiotics. I often drink tea, as the tannin helps tone the gut.  I add kefir or yogurt to my smoothies twice a week.    I  have regular bone broth, since that coats and heals the gut.    I also take  I take bentonite late at night (away from all food, drugs or supplements, as it absorbs nutrients)  and that helps with diarrhea.   When I have a flare up, I pour some yogurt starter (a trillion bacteria) into a drink and drink it all at once (or sip it over a couple of hours).  When it gets really bad, I make up a batch of strong tea, dissolve a tsp of himalayan salt in it, and 1-2 tsp of coconut oil.  As it cools I might add 1/2 packet of yogurt starter, or if I've had diarrhea I might add bentonite clay - I put this in a rectal bulb and do an enema with it.  I hold the enema for at least 20 minutes (especially if there's probiotic in it)  It settles things down right away!

This sounds like a lot of work - it is.  Good health isn't found in a quick fix supplement - what that supplement does to you over time, especially with the L-tryptophan, is unknown.  It's not healing your gut, it's calming it.  Like a drug.  It's better to look at healing the gut through diet.  

 

There is a TV show on "changing your biome" running right now in Australia - but it's not available to the rest of the world yet (not archived yet).  Stay tuned.  In the first episode, eliminating  FODMAPS settled the woman's gut beautifully, and she was able to add back over time many of the foods.  She found that the ones which irritated her the most were the onions, and she was able to add back many of the other foods.  FODMAPS is hard, I did it for 6 weeks, and added back nearly everything except for wheat and dairy. 

 

If you are more concerned about your gut than your taper, you might want to take a month to get an IBS regimen in place before starting your taper.

 

Remember - only one change at a time!

 

I hope this helps, and I hope you see the sun today!

Edited October 25, 2017 by JanCarol

[DMV64]

8 hours ago, JanCarol said:

Hey D -

 

Congratulations on finding a half helpful doctor!  I like the applesauce idea, though I find that gelcaps are more portable. Yes, he is a researcher.

 

 

I think he has never been on psych drugs, and doesn't understand the power of them.  He does not understand that neurotransmitters take at least 3 weeks to shift, and if you pile up 1-2 week tapers that by the 6th week you might be in serious strife.

We're about Harm Reduction here - we want you to get through this with the minimum possible symptoms, and we want you to be able to continue working and thriving.  We want you to be able to control your descent - like rappelling down a steep cliff, and we want you to be able to rest when you get symptoms or get tired.  We want to see you succeed! Me too!!

 

It seems slow and tedious - but as you get the hang of it, you can do this.  4 weeks between drops.  And the last part of the descent is the hardest, so I don't recommend any accelerations as your dose gets lower.  Ok

 

 

Yes, that's why you refill the container, swirl it around and drink that too, to get all the "dregs."  SImple!  Really!

 

I think your plan is fine.  Obviously he hasn't experienced tapering, and is making some guesses here - but at least he is friendly to the concept of tapering and willing to let you go as slowly as you want.

 

I've never heard anyone complain that they went too slowly.  I've heard hundreds of complaints that a taper went "too fast."  Keep that in mind as you go.

 

Are you ready for your first taper? I am ready to start today!

 

 

 

I encourage you to find something which does not contain L-tryptophan.  I encourage you to try things - like psyllium or inulin - which are single ingredient remedies.  This thing is a compound - a shotgun approach to your problem.   Additionally - you reacted to serotonin drugs.  Therefore you should avoid L-tryptophan at all costs. Maybe inulin. psyllium does not work well for me with IBS-C

 

When in withdrawal, it is important to only change one ingredient at a time.  Therefore the Ultrainflammex is out until you are done with your taper.    What works for you may be a combination of things, but you will need to build it up one ingredient at a time, to make sure that you don't have reactions. 

 

Here is what others have said about Digestive Problems in Withdrawal and IBS.  You may also want to look into Gluten Sensitivitiy as Wheat (and Dairy) can be inflammatory.  In Australia, we recommend eliminating all FODMAPS (certain types of foods) and then adding them back one at a time.  40% of all IBS cases are helped with a FODMAPS elimination diet.  FODMAPS are discussed in the first link about digestive problems.

You may wish to consider Probiotics, I have a regimen that seems to keep me stable.  (note:  be very careful with soil based probiotics - if they get overabundant, we don't know how to get rid of them!  The lactobacillus and acidophilus strains, the common, healthiest strains will cleanse naturally if you get out of balance) I do take these.

 

Here's my regimen:  daily I take 2 PB-8 probiotics. I often drink tea, as the tannin helps tone the gut.  I add kefir or yogurt to my smoothies twice a week.    I  have regular bone broth, since that coats and heals the gut.    I also take  I take bentonite late at night (away from all food, drugs or supplements, as it absorbs nutrients)  and that helps with diarrhea.   When I have a flare up, I pour some yogurt starter (a trillion bacteria) into a drink and drink it all at once (or sip it over a couple of hours).  When it gets really bad, I make up a batch of strong tea, dissolve a tsp of himalayan salt in it, and 1-2 tsp of coconut oil.  As it cools I might add 1/2 packet of yogurt starter, or if I've had diarrhea I might add bentonite clay - I put this in a rectal bulb and do an enema with it.  I hold the enema for at least 20 minutes (especially if there's probiotic in it)  It settles things down right away! Wow. This is good info. Wonder if it works for IBS-C?

This sounds like a lot of work - it is.  Good health isn't found in a quick fix supplement - what that supplement does to you over time, especially with the L-tryptophan, is unknown.  It's not healing your gut, it's calming it.  Like a drug.  It's better to look at healing the gut through diet.  

 

There is a TV show on "changing your biome" running right now in Australia - but it's not available to the rest of the world yet (not archived yet).  Stay tuned.  In the first episode, eliminating  FODMAPS settled the woman's gut beautifully, and she was able to add back over time many of the foods.  She found that the ones which irritated her the most were the onions, and she was able to add back many of the other foods.  FODMAPS is hard, I did it for 6 weeks, and added back nearly everything except for wheat and dairy. 

 

If you are more concerned about your gut than your taper, you might want to take a month to get an IBS regimen in place before starting your taper. I am ready to start my taper

 

Remember - only one change at a time!

 

I hope this helps, and I hope you see the sun today!

 

[JanCarol]

Hey D - 

 

IBS -C.  Now I have a bit more information.

 

If you are sensitive to psyllium (I don't like it much) you can take glucomannan, oat fibre and acacia fibre.  Also I was just reading about how prunes - as awesome as they are for constipation, they are also good for preventing osteoporosis in women.  Inulin is a resistant fibre, called a "pre-biotic," found in garlic, onions, asparagus,  and sprouted grains (like Ezekiel bread).  Beans & lentils are a resistant starch, which help keep things running smoothly - some people respond better to some beans than others.  

 

It's likely that your "IBS" is simply constipation from all of the brake-drugs you are on - slows the whole system down.

 

There is a danger in using enemas for IBS-C, in that you rely on the enema to move your bowel instead of your natural processes.  In emergencies (say 1-2 times a month) you could do it.  CHange my recipe:  No tea (that's for "drying things up"), use warm purified water, himalayan salt, and extra coconut oil, up to 2 Tablespoons.  The coconut oil coats the bowel and makes it smoother.  The problem with the coconut oil in enema, is it is a little drippy for awhile (so - not before yoga class!).  Some people choose to rinse after that with just plain salt water.

And remember the yogurt starter for an extra "boost."  My colo-rectal surgeon said that I could take an osmosis based laxative as much as I wanted.  This is a white powder that you dissolve in a drink, and it adds water to your bowel so that things move better.  However I disagree with "using it as much as I want" because it, too, can be addicting, and then you need it in order to poo.  Chronic use of this and a stool softener is part of what gave me IBS to begin with.  Mine is called Osmolax, which is a mysterious powder (probably ugh! a petroleum derivative) called Macrogol 3350.  I'm not sure what the American equivalents would be, but I seem to remember seeing something like that at an American pharmacy last time I was there.

 

Regardless, Movicol/Osmolax is probably safer in withdrawal than the thing you've been taking.  Just do not take it around food or medicine, as it will change the absorption of medicine in your intestines.

 

I hope you see the sun today!

[DMV64]

7 minutes ago, JanCarol said:

Hey D - 

 

IBS -C.  Now I have a bit more information.

 

If you are sensitive to psyllium (I don't like it much) you can take glucomannan, oat fibre and acacia fibre.  Also I was just reading about how prunes - as awesome as they are for constipation, they are also good for preventing osteoporosis in women.  Inulin is a resistant fibre, called a "pre-biotic," found in garlic, onions, asparagus,  and sprouted grains (like Ezekiel bread).  Beans & lentils are a resistant starch, which help keep things running smoothly - some people respond better to some beans than others.  

 

It's likely that your "IBS" is simply constipation from all of the brake-drugs you are on - slows the whole system down.

 

There is a danger in using enemas for IBS-C, in that you rely on the enema to move your bowel instead of your natural processes.  In emergencies (say 1-2 times a month) you could do it.  CHange my recipe:  No tea (that's for "drying things up"), use warm purified water, himalayan salt, and extra coconut oil, up to 2 Tablespoons.  The coconut oil coats the bowel and makes it smoother.  The problem with the coconut oil in enema, is it is a little drippy for awhile (so - not before yoga class!).  Some people choose to rinse after that with just plain salt water.

And remember the yogurt starter for an extra "boost."  My colo-rectal surgeon said that I could take an osmosis based laxative as much as I wanted.  This is a white powder that you dissolve in a drink, and it adds water to your bowel so that things move better.  However I disagree with "using it as much as I want" because it, too, can be addicting, and then you need it in order to poo.  Chronic use of this and a stool softener is part of what gave me IBS to begin with.  Mine is called Osmolax, which is a mysterious powder (probably ugh! a petroleum derivative) called Macrogol 3350.  I'm not sure what the American equivalents would be, but I seem to remember seeing something like that at an American pharmacy last time I was there.

 

Regardless, Movicol/Osmolax is probably safer in withdrawal than the thing you've been taking.  Just do not take it around food or medicine, as it will change the absorption of medicine in your intestines.

 

I hope you see the sun today!

Thank you for this! I don't think my IBS is from the meds, I have had it since I was 18 or 19 although I am sure it is not helping!

[DMV64]

10/25with current supplements added

7:00AM: Wake with a no panic

7:15AM: 5mg Vyvanse.   2 teaspoons ground flax seeds, 1 scoop Progreens, Probiotic, 20mg gentle iron, 2 soft gel fish oil 

7:30 Run

8am: 1mg Klonopin

10:00 teach

11:00AM: 100mg gabapentin

12:teach

1PM:  90% of 10 Mg Geoden begin taper

3:00PM 1000mg magnesium 2 cap of 500 is citrate.

5:00PM: 100mg gabapentin.

7PM: Dinner

8PM will take 2 teaspoons ground flax seeds

9PM:   will take 500 magnesium 600mg calcium.

10:30PM  Will take 2.5mg Saphris with .5 Cogentin at 10 before bed along . And 20 mg omeprazole. 100mg gabapentin. 

[DMV64]

22 hours ago, DMV64 said:

Started taper yesterday. Is it possible to feel something right away? Or maybe it is my imagination? Trying not to be hyper vigilant but feel edgy this morning. I know I have to float. Not analyze. 

 

[bubble]

What did you cut and by how much?

 

I apologise if you put it in your signature but I can't see it typing from my phone.

 

It is possible to feel the cut the next day. It happens to me when my CNS is not really ready for cutting and/or the cut is too big.

 

When I feel the cut so quickly it usually means that the widrawal symptoms will be very pronounced and sometimes I just have to go back up and hold more.

 

In any case, monitor it closely.

 

What is the nature of the symptoms?

 

What I notice from the "symptom pattern" that you post is that it's actually a copy paste of the times when you take your drugs with no symptoms (or infrequently a brief mention). On the other hand when you reply to other people, you find your symptoms described.

 

That happens to me also because we both probably learnt to ignore our symptoms, distract and go about our days as best as we can.

 

However, more self-awareness and being in touch with ourselves could be very beneficial.

[DMV64]

2 hours ago, bubble said:

What did you cut and by how much? Hi Bubble! I cut by 10%

 

I apologise if you put it in your signature but I can't see it typing from my phone.

 

It is possible to feel the cut the next day. It happens to me when my CNS is not really ready for cutting and/or the cut is too big. I am monitoring closely.

 

When I feel the cut so quickly it usually means that the widrawal symptoms will be very pronounced and sometimes I just have to go back up and hold more. Oh I hope not!

 

In any case, monitor it closely.

 

What is the nature of the symptoms? Just a bit of a spike in morning panic. General fear. Feel a little teetering, but holding on you know?

 

What I notice from the "symptom pattern" that you post is that it's actually a copy paste of the times when you take your drugs with no symptoms (or infrequently a brief mention). On the other hand when you reply to other people, you find your symptoms described. Right...ok.

 

That happens to me also because we both probably learnt to ignore our symptoms, distract and go about our days as best as we can. 

 

However, more self-awareness and being in touch with ourselves could be very beneficial. Yes, thanks, this is the beginning of the test taper so it is my first cut.

 

[DMV64]

Bubble: Just a bit of a spike in morning panic. General fear. Feel a little teetering, but holding on you know? Watching closely.

[DMV64]

So...not sure what I am feeling but I am watching. I have been mostly cut and pasting my daily report because it is pretty formulaic with slight variations in symptoms emerging. But I will be more mindful of filling it out each day. Also sometimes by the time I can sit down to do it, it is hard to remember some specifics!

[DMV64]

2 hours ago, bubble said:

What did you cut and by how much?

 

I apologise if you put it in your signature but I can't see it typing from my phone.

 

It is possible to feel the cut the next day. It happens to me when my CNS is not really ready for cutting and/or the cut is too big.

 

When I feel the cut so quickly it usually means that the widrawal symptoms will be very pronounced and sometimes I just have to go back up and hold more.

 

In any case, monitor it closely.

 

What is the nature of the symptoms?

 

What I notice from the "symptom pattern" that you post is that it's actually a copy paste of the times when you take your drugs with no symptoms (or infrequently a brief mention). On the other hand when you reply to other people, you find your symptoms described.

 

That happens to me also because we both probably learnt to ignore our symptoms, distract and go about our days as best as we can.

 

However, more self-awareness and being in touch with ourselves could be very beneficial.

Sorry for the multiple posts. I guess the question always is do I wait it out and let the symptoms subside as I’m watching or do I reduce the cut?

[ChessieCat]

5 hours ago, DMV64 said:

Also sometimes by the time I can sit down to do it, it is hard to remember some specifics!

 

It would be a good idea to keep a notebook and pen handy throughout the day so you can jot them down as they happen.  I sometimes find it hard to remember what I did during the previous hour!

[DMV64]

10/26

6:00AM: Wake with a moderate panic

6:15AM: 5mg Vyvanse.   2 teaspoons ground flax seeds, 1 scoop Progreens, Probiotic, 20mg gentle iron, 2 soft gel fish oil 

7:00 computer, some anxiety. Feel afraid that I am having symptoms.

8am: 1mg Klonopin

9:30 teach

11:00AM: 100mg gabapentin. A little bit of DP

12:30 lunch. 

12:30 PM:  90% of 10 Mg Geoden 2nd day of taper

1:00 Teach. Feeling less anxiety

3:00PM 1000mg magnesium 2 cap of 500 is citrate.

5:00PM: 100mg gabapentin.

6PM: teach. Feeling better teaching and at night

8:30PM Dinner 500 magnesium 600mg calcium.

9:30PM 2 teaspoons ground flax seeds

10:30PM  Will take 2.5mg Saphris with .5 Cogentin before bed. And 20 mg omeprazole. 100mg gabapentin. 

 

[DMV64]

13 hours ago, ChessieCat said:

 

It would be a good idea to keep a notebook and pen handy throughout the day so you can jot them down as they happen.  I sometimes find it hard to remember what I did during the previous hour!

Thank you! This sounds like a plan. This morning i have hot and cold flashes

[JanCarol]

Hey D - 

 

I've been thinking about you.  Another good plant for IBS-C is ginger.  It warms the gut and increases tone.  I remember going to a Chinese grocery because there's a ginger candy I like called Ting Ting Jahe from Indonesia.  I bought a bucketload of them.  The Asian girl at the counter said, "Don't eat too many at once!"  I asked why, she said (hiding her mouth with her hand), "because it makes you go!"  I love my ginger, put it in smoothies, cook with it, make ginger tea, I even make ginger tea and chill it to make a sports drink for gym and karate. 

 

With IBS-C you want to increase heat, so ginger is better for that than peppermint, which is to cool an inflamed system.

 

I see you're worried about your 10% taper.

 

I never got symptoms from a 10% drop, so Bubble may be the wiser one on this problem.

 

My inclination is for you to hold.  The changes aren't really in effect for 4 days after drop, then another 3 weeks to "adjust" to the drop.

My instinct is to give the drop 10 days, and if your symptoms escalate during this time  - then you can updose by 5%.  It may feel like 2 steps forward, 1 step back (and it is!) - but it's still progress!

This tells me that you will be sensitive, and I'm extremely happy that you didn't drop 25% or something larger than 10%.

Give it time, hold there, hold on - float (well done!) - and see how well you recover from the 10% drop.  Then we'll look at how to proceed. It may be that you will benefit from microtapers.   http://survivingantidepressants.org/index.php?/topic/2878-micro-taper-instead-of-10-or-5-decreases/  

 

There are adjustments we can make - but let's see how you go with the 10% first!  You are only a few days in, and this will take time to suss out what is happening.  It is especially complex for you because of the polydrug thing - it makes everything more complicated, so I'm glad you are being extra careful!

 

That notebook that Chessie mentioned is very important right now!

 

Breathe, and I hope you see the sun today!

 

[DMV64]

1 hour ago, JanCarol said:

Hey D - 

 

I've been thinking about you.  Another good plant for IBS-C is ginger.  It warms the gut and increases tone.  I remember going to a Chinese grocery because there's a ginger candy I like called Ting Ting Jahe from Indonesia.  I bought a bucketload of them.  The Asian girl at the counter said, "Don't eat too many at once!"  I asked why, she said (hiding her mouth with her hand), "because it makes you go!"  I love my ginger, put it in smoothies, cook with it, make ginger tea, I even make ginger tea and chill it to make a sports drink for gym and karate. I LOVE ginger! I eat it even though I have the unfortunate bladder burning. Things that help my IBS -C sometimes irritate the bladder : /  so it is always a balance.

 

With IBS-C you want to increase heat, so ginger is better for that than peppermint, which is to cool an inflamed system.

 

I see you're worried about your 10% taper. A little bit, but I do tend to feel things right away and then (mostly) they smooth out. I am hoping this is the case. I feel symptomatic this morning but it passed pretty quickly and I went dancing and now I feel pretty good!

 

I never got symptoms from a 10% drop, so Bubble may be the wiser one on this problem. I know I am very sensitive, I cannot honestly remember in the haze of everything if I ever mentioned on my thread that before all the polydrugging started I did a water titrate, 1ml at a time off Klonopin. In connection with the benzo boards. I don't remember it being 10% proper. I would just drop 1ML a day and hold if I felt symptoms...is this what is meant by a micro taper? I will read it as well.

 

My inclination is for you to hold.  The changes aren't really in effect for 4 days after drop, then another 3 weeks to "adjust" to the drop. Ok

My instinct is to give the drop 10 days, and if your symptoms escalate during this time  - then you can updose by 5%.  It may feel like 2 steps forward, 1 step back (and it is!) - but it's still progress! Yes ok.

This tells me that you will be sensitive, and I'm extremely happy that you didn't drop 25% or something larger than 10%.

Give it time, hold there, hold on - float (well done!) - and see how well you recover from the 10% drop.  Then we'll look at how to proceed. It may be that you will benefit from microtapers.   http://survivingantidepressants.org/index.php?/topic/2878-micro-taper-instead-of-10-or-5-decreases/  Will read this.

 

There are adjustments we can make - but let's see how you go with the 10% first!  You are only a few days in, and this will take time to suss out what is happening.  It is especially complex for you because of the polydrug thing - it makes everything more complicated, so I'm glad you are being extra careful! : )

 

That notebook that Chessie mentioned is very important right now! Yes...a good idea

 

Breathe, and I hope you see the sun today! I danced!

 

 

[JanCarol]

Hey D - 

5 minutes ago, DMV64 said:

I would just drop 1ML a day and hold if I felt symptoms...is this what is meant by a micro taper?

 

There are other sites that recommend daily tapers.  We do not, because there is a long delay from the change and the result.

 

So we wait for the result.

 

And, the 10% - is about tapering 10% of previous dose creates an ever declining decrease.  So 20mg - 2 mg = 18 mg.  The next taper would be 18mg - 1.8 mg = 16.8 mg.  The amount dropped gets smaller and smaller. This keeps the taper more gentle than a straight line taper.  More like walking down a gentle hill instead of rappelling off of a cliff!

Why taper by 10% of my dosage?

 

Microtaper isn't my strong suit. Brassmonkey is the master of sneaking little doses out.  He might do tiny drops for 4 weeks, then take a break from tapering and hold.  Different people choose different percentages and timings - it's about listening to your body.

 

That's may be what Bubble was talking about.  Pay close attention.  Some people can get it nailed down to a science:  (fictional journal entry) "first 3 days after taper and shocking, but I stabilize - get a wave about 2-3 weeks out (this time it was crying jags, last month it was neck pain & electrical stuff), and if I wait another week it settles down."  or maybe "I don't feel a drop at all at first, but a week later I have sharp symptoms and have to take time out in a dark quiet room for a few days, but after that I feel clearer," or one other possibility - "feels fine, feels fine, feels fine - until all of a sudden it doesn't" (often the pattern of someone who "pushes through" symptoms) 

So withdrawal unfolds in a lot of ways, and by paying attention to them, you learn about the ways of your body and healing.

 

And, as you write about it, it puts you in the role of the Observer.  That's the Wise Mind that is neutral, detached.  The more time you spend in Observing, the less time you spend writhing in your pain.  I heard a quote last week:  Pain is mandatory, suffering is optional.  And for many, the key piece in shifting is about stepping back into the role of Observing.  Journals are great for that.

I hope you danced the sun today!

 

 

 

 

[DMV64]

3 minutes ago, JanCarol said:

Hey D - 

 

There are other sites that recommend daily tapers.  We do not, because there is a long delay from the change and the result. Ah ok

 

So we wait for the result.

 

And, the 10% - is about tapering 10% of previous dose creates an ever declining decrease.  So 20mg - 2 mg = 18 mg.  The next taper would be 18mg - 1.8 mg = 16.8 mg.  The amount dropped gets smaller and smaller. This keeps the taper more gentle than a straight line taper.  More like walking down a gentle hill instead of rappelling off of a cliff!

Why taper by 10% of my dosage? Right I do understand this although I must admit the math scares me! ha! I had a mathy friend help me think about it!

 

Microtaper isn't my strong suit. Brassmonkey is the master of sneaking little doses out.  He might do tiny drops for 4 weeks, then take a break from tapering and hold.  Different people choose different percentages and timings - it's about listening to your body. Well, if this goes like what some of my past experiences have been like, I will feel it right away and then slowly smooth. Here's hoping.

 

That's may be what Bubble was talking about.  Pay close attention.  Some people can get it nailed down to a science:  (fictional journal entry) "first 3 days after taper and shocking, but I stabilize - get a wave about 2-3 weeks out (this time it was crying jags, last month it was neck pain & electrical stuff), and if I wait another week it settles down."  or maybe "I don't feel a drop at all at first, but a week later I have sharp symptoms and have to take time out in a dark quiet room for a few days, but after that I feel clearer," or one other possibility - "feels fine, feels fine, feels fine - until all of a sudden it doesn't" (often the pattern of someone who "pushes through" symptoms) Yes will do

So withdrawal unfolds in a lot of ways, and by paying attention to them, you learn about the ways of your body and healing.

 

And, as you write about it, it puts you in the role of the Observer.  That's the Wise Mind that is neutral, detached.  The more time you spend in Observing, the less time you spend writhing in your pain.  I heard a quote last week:  Pain is mandatory, suffering is optional.  And for many, the key piece in shifting is about stepping back into the role of Observing.  Journals are great for that. Hey! We say that quote in program of recovery all the time!! : ) Thank you JanCarol!

I hope you danced the sun today!

 

 

 

 

 

[DMV64]

10/27

6:30AM: Wake with a moderate panic. And hot and cold flashes. Headache

6:45AM: 5mg Vyvanse.   2 teaspoons ground flax seeds, 1 scoop Progreens, Probiotic, 20mg gentle iron, 2 soft gel fish oil 

7:00 Run

8am: 1mg Klonopin

9:30 dance

11:00AM: 100mg gabapentin. 

12:30 lunch with daughter. 

12:30 PM:  90% of 10 Mg Geoden 3rd day of taper

1:00 Teach. Meeting. 

3:00PM 1000mg magnesium 2 cap of 500 is citrate. Some confused thinking.

5:00PM: 100mg gabapentin.

7PM: Dinner600mg calcium.

8:30PM 500 magnesium 

8:30PM 2 teaspoons ground flax seeds

10:30PM  Will take 2.5mg Saphris with .5 Cogentin before bed. And 20 mg omeprazole. 100mg gabapentin. 

[DMV64]

10/28

4AM: wake with burning eye pain. Like there is something in my eye. Flush eye and go back to bed.

7:15AM: Wake with a mild panic. Feel like I am getting a cold. Headache. Hot and cold flashes.

7:15AM: 5mg Vyvanse.   2 teaspoons ground flax seeds, 1 scoop Progreens, Probiotic, 20mg gentle iron, 2 soft gel fish oil 

8am: 1mg Klonopin

9:15 teach

11:00AM: 100mg gabapentin. 

10:45 take class

12:30 PM: Lunch and  90% of 10 Mg Geoden 4th day of taper

2:00 Shopping. Feeling ok.

3:00PM 1000mg magnesium 2 cap of 500 is citrate. 

5:00PM: 100mg gabapentin. Headache.

6:30PM: Dinner 

7:15PM 500 magnesium 600mg calcium. Tired.

8:00PM will take 2 teaspoons ground flax seeds

10:00PM  Will take 2.5mg Saphris with .5 Cogentin before bed. And 20 mg omeprazole. 100mg gabapentin. 

[DMV64]

10/29

 

6:15AM: Wake with a moderate panic. Hot and cold flashes.

6:30AM: 5mg Vyvanse. Run   2 teaspoons ground flax seeds, 1 scoop Progreens, Probiotic, 20mg gentle iron, 2 soft gel fish oil 

8am: 1mg Klonopin

9:15 teach

11:00AM: 100mg gabapentin. 

12:00 PM: Lunch and  90% of 10 Mg Geoden 5th day of taper

1:00 Teach

3:00PM 1000mg magnesium 2 cap of 500 is citrate. 

5:00PM: 100mg gabapentin. Feeling depressed.

7:30PM: Dinner 

7:30PM 500 magnesium 600mg calcium. Feeling less depressed

8:00PM will take 2 teaspoons ground flax seeds

10:00PM  Will take 2.5mg Saphris with .5 Cogentin before bed. And 20 mg omeprazole. 100mg gabapentin. 

[DMV64]

10/30

 

6:15AM: Wake with a mild panic. Less hot and cold flashes.

6:30AM: 5mg Vyvanse.    2 teaspoons ground flax seeds, 1 scoop Progreens, Probiotic, 20mg gentle iron, 2 soft gel fish oil 

7:30am: 1mg Klonopin

9:30 yoga

11:00AM: 100mg gabapentin. Feeling depressed

12:00 PM: Lunch and  90% of 10 Mg Geoden 6th day of taper

1:00 meeting. Still depressed.

2PM: lunch with daughter

3:00PM 1000mg magnesium 2 cap of 500 is citrate. Take a shower to feel better

5:00PM: 100mg gabapentin. 

5:30PM Meeting

7PM teach. Have great class

8:30PM: Dinner 

8:30PM 500 magnesium 600mg calcium. Feeling less depressed

9:30PM will take 2 teaspoons ground flax seeds

10:30PM  Will take 2.5mg Saphris with .5 Cogentin before bed. And 20 mg omeprazole. 100mg gabapentin. 

[DMV64]

10/31

7AM: Wake with a very mild panic. 

7:15AM: 5mg Vyvanse.    2 teaspoons ground flax seeds, 1 scoop Progreens, Probiotic, 20mg gentle iron, 2 soft gel fish oil 

7:30am: run

9Am: 1mg Klonopin

11:00AM: 100mg gabapentin. 

12:00 PM: Yoga

215PM: Lunch and  90% of 10 Mg Geoden 7th day of taper

3:00PM 1000mg magnesium 2 cap of 500 is citrate. 

5:00PM: 100mg gabapentin. 

7PM teach.Dinner

8:30PM 500 magnesium 600mg calcium. 

9:00PM 2 teaspoons ground flax seeds

10:30PM  2.5mg Saphris with .5 Cogentin before bed. And 20 mg omeprazole. 100mg gabapentin. 

[JanCarol]

Hey D - 

 

I'm confused - 

 

Your journal entries say 90% of 10 mg Geodon - which is 9 mg Geodon.

But your signature says 10% of 20 mg Geodon.

 

What's happening here?

 

Please get your signature correct.

How are your symptoms?  You were worried after your first drop - has that settled?

 

 

[DMV64]

2 minutes ago, JanCarol said:

Hey D - 

 

I'm confused - 

 

Your journal entries say 90% of 10 mg Geodon - which is 9 mg Geodon.

But your signature says 10% of 20 mg Geodon.

 

What's happening here?

 

Please get your signature correct.

How are your symptoms?  You were worried after your first drop - has that settled?

 

 

Oh sorry I never was very good at math! I just updated my signature so what I’m doing is taking 90% of my Geoden dose which is a 10% reduction. I was having symptoms the first few days and they seem to be subsiding. Hopefully!

[JanCarol]

Please, it helps us best to know your current dose.

 

10% of 20 mg is 18 mg.  Is this what you are taking?

 

If not (and it's the 10 mg) - how did you get there?

[DMV64]

35 minutes ago, JanCarol said:

Please, it helps us best to know your current dose.

 

10% of 20 mg is 18 mg.  Is this what you are taking?

 

If not (and it's the 10 mg) - how did you get there?

I am doing like we talked about. I am dissolving the contents of a 10 mg capsule in 100 mL of water and I am shaking it up and then drinking 90 mL and tossing 10 mLI am doing like we talked about. I am dissolving the contents of a 10 mg capsule in 100 mL of water and I am shaking it up and then drinking 90 mL and tossing 10 mL

[DMV64]

34 minutes ago, DMV64 said:

I am doing like we talked about. I am dissolving the contents of a 10 mg capsule in 100 mL of water and I am shaking it up and then drinking 90 mL and tossing 10 mLI am doing like we talked about. I am dissolving the contents of a 10 mg capsule in 100 mL of water and I am shaking it up and then drinking 90 mL and tossing 10 mL

Geez. I MEANT a 20mg capsule. Sorry.

[JanCarol]

OK WOW.

 

I was freaking out that you somewhere dropped to 10 mg.

 

So you are taking 18 mg.  (90% of 20 mg).  (0.9 x 20)

 

How are your symptoms?

[DMV64]

Ok. I am just messing up numbers in my journal so I will fix it going ahead. I see I wrote 10mg, but it is a 20mg capsule of Geoden.

[DMV64]

2 minutes ago, JanCarol said:

OK WOW.

 

I was freaking out that you somewhere dropped to 10 mg.

 

So you are taking 18 mg.  (90% of 20 mg).  (0.9 x 20)

 

How are your symptoms? Really manageble! The first few days were a bit hard but now I seem to be evened out.

 

[JanCarol]

OK - hang on there!

 

Give it a month.  If you're brave enough to try a taper before the holidays, you might drop again after Nov 25.

 

If you got 3 good months in a row, you might be able to shorten your time period - but you won't know until you get some statistics.  You are an experiment of n=1.  The best experiments are slow and careful.

 

If you get 3 months where your withdrawal lightens up each time, and the symptoms get easier, you might be able to do shorter tapers - like 3 week ones.

 

But if you get any disruption at all - multiple tapers can "stack up" - you might do 6 tapers, no symptoms, no symptoms, no symptoms, then all of a sudden the next taper is harder.

 

We'd like it to be easy the whole way, with as few challenges as possible.  That's the best guarantee of success.  I think it went well for me, because I only got better as I tapered.  My tapers were careful, and I made some mistakes - but I was lucky and it never went into withdrawal or extreme symptoms.  It was mostly pleasurable - and so now I want to keep it that way!

I know you're looking at the calendar thinking this will take forever - but as your drug load decreases, that won't matter so much - feeling better will.  Throw the calendar away - your body doesn't know what month of the year it is.  It only knows how long it's been drugged, and what systems are affected, and will take it's own time unravelling and re-knitting its healing process.

 

I hope you see the sun today!

 

[DMV64]

3 minutes ago, JanCarol said:

OK - hang on there!

 

Give it a month.  If you're brave enough to try a taper before the holidays, you might drop again after Nov 25. Ok

 

If you got 3 good months in a row, you might be able to shorten your time period - but you won't know until you get some statistics.  You are an experiment of n=1.  The best experiments are slow and careful.

 

If you get 3 months where your withdrawal lightens up each time, and the symptoms get easier, you might be able to do shorter tapers - like 3 week ones. Ok I am hopeful. I feel better now even with this little drop.

 

But if you get any disruption at all - multiple tapers can "stack up" - you might do 6 tapers, no symptoms, no symptoms, no symptoms, then all of a sudden the next taper is harder.

 

We'd like it to be easy the whole way, with as few challenges as possible.  That's the best guarantee of success.  I think it went well for me, because I only got better as I tapered.  My tapers were careful, and I made some mistakes - but I was lucky and it never went into withdrawal or extreme symptoms.  It was mostly pleasurable - and so now I want to keep it that way!

I know you're looking at the calendar thinking this will take forever - but as your drug load decreases, that won't matter so much - feeling better will.  Throw the calendar away - your body doesn't know what month of the year it is.  It only knows how long it's been drugged, and what systems are affected, and will take it's own time unravelling and re-knitting its healing process. Ok, its just hard because it seems like forever.

 

I hope you see the sun today!

 

 

[DMV64]

 

11/1

6:30AM: Wake with a no panic. 

6:30AM: 5mg Vyvanse. 2 teaspoons ground flax seeds, 1 scoop Progreens, Probiotic, 20mg gentle iron, 2 soft gel fish oil 

8am: 1mg Klonopin

9:15 meditation

10:00AM:teach

11: 00 100mg gabapentin. 

12:00 PM: teach

1:30 Lunch and  90% of 10 Mg Geoden 8th day of taper

3:00PM 1000mg magnesium 2 cap of 500 is citrate. 

4:00PM Massage

5:00PM: 100mg gabapentin. 

7:30PM: Dinner 

7:30PM 500 magnesium 600mg calcium. Mild anxiety

8:00PM  2 teaspoons ground flax seeds

10:30PM  Will take 2.5mg Saphris with .5 Cogentin before bed. And 20 mg omeprazole. 100mg gabapentin.