Krasiyan: Introduction

[Krasiyan]

       Hello my name is Krasiyan, and I am a 27 year old male from a small town in the country of Bulgaria. My story begins when I was 16 or 17 with my very first chest pains. I do not know what caused them to appear, but before chest pain became a part of my life I was like evry other kid of that age.

 

I was first sent to do different types of tests: heart checks; thyroid; which showed no signs of a problem, and so that put me on my first visit to a real psychiatrist.

By the time I met the psychiatrist my chest pains were being accompanied by anxiety and nervousness. I received a diagnosis of Panic Disorder and was put on a pill called Stimuloton. I had no problems stopping it after some time, becuase it didn't really help with the panic attacks, which were starting to appear for the first time. In the begining it was only chest pain, but then it worked it's way to full blown panic attacks, and even agoraphobia. So the Stimulaton wasn't working and I was put on a drug called Paroxetine (Paxil). Slowly I began from half a pill working my way up to 2 pills. Two pills are 40 mg. The Paxil started doing it's job and time passed, my panic attacks stopped, and the agoraphobia vanished. When I say time passed I mean alot of time. I took the 2 pills of Paxil (40mg) for 7 or 8 years up unil last September.

 

Well with no panic attacks for years, and no agoraphobia I went and asked to be put off the medication. I was told to take my 2 pills and reduce them from 2 pills to 1 pill (one), and take that one pill for ten days. After these ten days I should take the one pill, and cut it in half, then take that small half pill for another 10 days. In summary 10 days 1 pill and 10 days half a pill. At the begining i started to experience: diarrhea, dizziness, and a few other strange sensations like brain zaps. When around two weeks had passed the diarrhea went away. My emotions had returned. I had no way to understand that while I was on my medication I was being suppressed. I started to laugh more and generally perceive life more emotionally. Because I am male my ejaculation improved also. Does are the good parts of not taking my daily does of Paxil.

 

Now to the bad parts. Sure I got my emotions back, but so did my anxiety return. It is the first time in many years where I feel anxious, and having Panic attacks seems like something that will happen.

My symtopms are: high levels of anxiety and unrest; panic attacks; different types of head and chest tightnes and pain. A general feeling of suffering. The calmness I had while on the pill is gone basically, and I am always tense and nervous now. I was very well conditioned on it. Nothing of my daily tasks could get to me, I even had a working job and everything going. Now my daily life feels anxious and challenging.

 

In summary: was fine before taking the drug out of the body;

 

Now that I am clean of any Paxil in my system and experiencing all these negative sensations and my behaviour is that of an anxious person once again I am unsure what decision is best for me.  Daily anxiety has made me indecisive and weak willed. The points I am going to stress on are: 

 

two pills (40mg) of Paxil for 7 or 8 years;

Panic attacks and agoraphiba is cured. Initiating plans to stop the drug.

time of discontinuing the drug : 20 days give or take - As said in the above text : 10 days of 1 pill; 10 days of half a pill; and then stop.

result : returning anxiety with panic attacks and generally feeling unwell;

When I returned to the psychiatrist and explained how I was not feeling so great now that I am free of Paxil I got hit with a free sample of a item called Levosulpiride which is a benzamide antipsychotic. This did not agree with me so I haven't taken any of it. I suspect that the time I took to stop Paxil was too short and too fast which made me feel this horrible way. The dilema I am faced right now is should I ask to restart Paxil to a dose which might make me feel more comfortable. It might not be the original 40 mg, it might be less, and then I can try to wean myself off it in a more gradual pace. It's a dilema because on one side : I'm risking side effects from the begining of Paxil; but on the other hand my quality of life has deteriorated and who knows if it will only get worse.

I think Im leaning towards the take Paxil again, because Im too scared to think what might happen in a month or more. Are there people who have been weaned off too fast from their antidepressant and recovered, or do they just get new conditions and get even worse? Does returning even work or make things work?

 

Thanks for reading this is my first post here 

 

 

[Gridley]

Hi, Kraslyan, and welcome to SA.  

 

I'm really pleased that you have found this site.  What you are experiencing are withdrawal symptoms from having got off the drug too quickly.  SA recommends tapering by no more than 10% of the previous dose with a hold of about 4 weeks to allow the brain to adapt to not getting as much of the drug.  

 

The first thing we would like you to do is to complete your drug signature which will appear below every post you make.  Please follow these instruction:

 

A request: Would you summarize your history in a signature - ALL drugs, doses, dates, and discontinuations & reinstatements, in the last 12-24 months particularly? 

• Please leave out symptoms and diagnoses.
• A list is easier to understand than one or multiple paragraphs. 

• Any drugs prior to 24 months ago can just be listed with start and stop years.
• Please use actual dates or approximate dates (mid-June, Late October) rather than relative time frames (last week, 3 months ago)
• Spell out months, e.g. "October" or "Oct."; 9/1/2016 can be interpreted as Jan. 9, 2016 or Sept. 1, 2016.
• Link to Account Settings – Create or Edit a signature.

Unfortunately withdrawal symptoms can last for months and sometimes years.  The only known way to reduce the withdrawal symptoms is to reinstate the drug which you have stopped.  I'll give you a link to read and if you decide you want to reinstate we can suggest the smallest dose for you to try.  Please do not go back on the last dose you were taking because your brain will have already made some adaptations and the previous dose will probably be too much.  It is better to start with a small amount and then take a tiny bit more if needed than to take a larger dose which might be too much for your brain.  Once you have completed your signatures, we can make a suggestion about how much to reinstate of the Paxil.  Then you can taper down slowly and limit withdrawal symptoms.  Yes, there are many people who have weaned off too fast and then recovered. 

 

Here are some links for you to check out:

 

Why taper by 10% of my dosage?

 

About reinstating and stabilizing to reduce withdrawal symptoms

What should I expect from my doctor about withdrawal symptoms?

 

These really helped me to understand SA's recommendations:

 

Brain Remodelling

Video:  Healing From Antidepressants - Patterns of Recovery

 

This is your own Introduction topic where you can ask questions and journal your progress.

 

 

•  

[Krasiyan]

Nice to meet you.

 

Yes that's what I was thinking; the brain would have probably made some changes by now. I can't imagen taking anything close to my previous dose. That would probably kill me. My guess would be that I would be put on half a pill. I think that's what the psychiatrist I'm seeing uses to introduce antidepressants to normal people. Truthfully I'm not even sure if my brain can handle 1 pill now that it has started waking up my emotions.

 

I hope I made my signature correctly.

[Gridley]

Thanks for posting your signature.  It's fine and a big help.  You seem to understand the principles of reinstatement very well and my guess is that you should reinstate at somewhere between 50% of your previous dose and 25%.  I want to check this with the other moderators to see what they think.  So please wait before reinstating until I write you again.  Since you have been off the Paxil only a little more than a month, your chances are increased for the reinstatement to work. 

[Krasiyan]

Edit: Added exact name of the brand of Paxil.

Also edit : Changed the date from 20.09.2017 to 19.09.2017 since that it is the first day I started tapering.

20.09.2017 is when my montly prescription ends. Which means I have to go ask for a new one. It's done each month.

[ChessieCat]

29 minutes ago, Gridley said:

my guess is that you should reinstate at somewhere between 50% of your previous dose and 25%.  I want to check this with the other moderators to see what they think.

 

Q:  Did you take you last dose of 10mg on 19th September 2017?

 

      OR

 

Q:  Did you take your last dose of 10mg on about 9th October 2017?

 

 

Please change your signature so it shows your dates and doses clearly.  This will help us know the exact information.  Please add dates and doses.  Thank you. 

 

     Tapered ten days dates on 1 pill 20mg; Another ten days dates on half a pill 10mg and then stopped; 

 

It will depend when you took 10mg last what dose you could try.  We try to suggest the lowest dose which might help reduce the withdrawal symptoms.  It is better to start with a low dose and increase it by a small amount if the symptoms don't improve.

[Gridley]

Kres,

 

Your answers  to ChessieCat apparently appeared elsewhere. (Krasiyan updated his signature CC)

 

Our recommendation is to reinstitute at 5mg of Paxil.  

 

Tips for tapering off Paxil (paroxetine)

 

So reinstitute at 5 mg and let's wait until you stabilize before thinking about a slow taper down.   What does "stabilize" mean?  Symptoms are better and you can function.

How long does it take?  There is no science here, it's all individual.  Three months?  Longer?  Let's take it as it comes and see how you do.    Please keep to me up-to-date on how you are doing.  Use this thread for communications.

 

Edited October 27, 2017 by ChessieCat
added note re updated signature

[Krasiyan]

Hey! Stabilizing will take time, and if I get a bad reaction to the start of 5 mg the worst decision would be to increase the dosage correct? 

[ChessieCat]

It takes about 4 days for the drug to get to steady dose in the blood and a few more days for it to register in the brain.

 

It is important to keep notes on paper of what worsens and what improves.  This will help you to see improvement which you may not feel.

 

If you get a bad reaction do not take any more.

 

If the symptoms improve, even just a little bit, that means that reinstatement is working.

 

If after about 1 week you find that the symptoms have not improved at all or you are not able to cope with the symptoms please post your notes here in your topic and we will assess whether increasing by a very small amount might help.

 

The idea of reinstating isn't to get rid of the withdrawal symptoms completely, but to bring them to a level that you can live with.

 

Yes stabilising will take time.  It is important not to panic during this time and think that you have to take more of the drug.

 

Windows and Waves Pattern of Stabilization

 

Withdrawal Normal Description

[Krasiyan]

This might sound funny, but when I weight myself it looks like I've lost 5 kilograms. I'm not even as close to being active as I was before tapering off Paxil.

[Krasiyan]

Went to see the psychiatrist to ask for reinstatement. There was a note saying he won't be working today. Have his number and some left over pills. Might call him and ask if I can just start taking 5 mg from tomorrow. Sleep has took a little bit of a hit. Feeling anxious; not panicking. Just the usual chest pain, and a little bit of dizziness.

[Krasiyan]

Being off Paxil sure showed me I can laugh alot LOL. Surprised that emotions returned in such a short time. When I laugh it feels so "funny". Have this scary feeling of being a little more stupid right now. Acting more on impulse and not planning out things. Feel like can't stick to a schedule. Some things seem harder to comprehend and notice. Think I'm using more basic level of thinking. Maybe devolving into a caveman.  

[Gridley]

You have a good sense of humor, Krasiyan.  That's a good sign.

[Krasiyan]

Literally was before like a statue. Now laughing like a clown at simple things.

 

Is there a  public chat room or discord where members hang out? Bumping my post with 1 sentence at a time feels weird.

[ChessieCat]

There is a FB group which one of the members of SA started.

 

 

[Krasiyan]

I noticed I have sharp pain when rasing my upper body. The pain is not something that comes in waves, just when I rase my upper back it hurts alot It's on both front and back sides ofmy body, at the level of my breast. It's from Paxil wtihdraw 100% because I never had joint or muscle pain before. Is this type of joint pain, muscle sorness a serius side effect? Starting 5 mg Paxil again if it's something I should worry about? I'm  wondering weather I should hold out on restarting the drug but this sharp back pain has made me reconsider? Andy advice would be helpful.

[ChessieCat]

It is possible that it is caused by withdrawal.  See #56 on this list Dr Joseph Glenmullen's WD Symptoms Checklist

[Krasiyan]

Thanks. Sorry I was a little freaked out in my previos post. Was just a bit afraid. It's probably caused by withdrawal yes.

[Krasiyan]

Just came back from a visit to my GP. She said I should do stretches for my back pain. Got told a load of bull**** that my withdrawal would only get worse and never improve, because that's how it works, and I should take it for life. Meanwhile remember my psychiatrist sying one time that drugs like Paxil could not be taken forever. Amazing how the GP can say such things and god forbid people believe in them. Like someone telling you: Hey you will never get better without this drug. No matter how much time passes. Now be a good boy and go take your medecine.

[ChessieCat]

So did you get your script?

[Krasiyan]

Have to pay to visit the psychiatrist. Will go on Tuesday, because that`s his first working day. The GP doesn't prescribe Paxil. Only a psychiatrist can do that. I was trying to resist starting back up to tell you the truth. It's been only 20 days since 10 of October and it's mind blowing how things can change in such a short time.

[Krasiyan]

Will try to ask for the minimum of 5 mg like I was adviced. Too scared to hit 10 mg and 40 mg was when I had agoraphobia so yeah.

 

Actually asking might be the wrong way to aproach the situation. I saw a thread on how you should speak to your doctor.

[Krasiyan]

Guys/Girls sorry to say this but I tapered myself the wrong way and realized it just now. My face is red with embarrassment. I fininished on 5 mg instead of 10. Please look at my updated drug signature.

This is probably the worst mistake I could have ever made and I'm supose to be a 27 year old adult. Only human i suppose. In light of this change in my situation any advice on future reinstantment would be very appreciated. Sorry you have to deal with a fool like me.

[ChessieCat]

Hi Krasiyan,

 

It's very easy to make a mistake.  What is good is that you realised it before you started back on 5mg.

 

Q:  Did you go from 20mg to 5mg or did you take 10mg at some stage in between?  Please update your signature if necessary.

 

It's up to you to make the final decision.  You could try 2mg, 2.5mg or 3mg.  The lower the dose you can reinstate the less time it will take you to get off the drug.  You could try 2mg and see how you go and if after about a week or two you feel no improvement then you could increase to 2.5mg.  It is better to start low and build up gradually by small amounts than to start too high.

[Krasiyan]

Hello Chessie Cat,

 

A: I was told to taper 40 mg in two stages. First stage 1/2 and second stage 1/4. Each stage lasting for ten days. So thinking that 1/2 of 40 mg is 20 mg I took 1 pill for 10 days.

 

The mistake started when I split half a pill into two pieces. That half pill should have been 10 mg if I'm correct, but by spliting it in two I reduces it to 5 mg. I'm pretty sure that's what I did, and I finished on 5 mg. I would like to report that focusing too much on this sitatuon takes a toll on the mind. I was very upset when I realised it yesterday, but now I see that's just wasted energy. Whats done is done, and if I worry for evry little detail, oh boy God help me.

[MollyN]

Hi Krasiyan! So glad you have been able to laugh again that's great to read!

 

Also glad you're not fretting about the dosage, you've realised what's happened and ChessieCat has you well in hand  

 

The muscle pains are very often present with paxil withdrawal, I found regular massage (as often as I could wrangle really - ie daily!) very helpful, maybe from a willing partner or from a paid service if necessary. There are ways you can help yourself with rolling on tennis balls under the muscles etc as well. I tried gentle yoga stretches helpful, I just googled a routine 'beginner yoga' on youtube.  I'm really hoping the reinstatement works for you xxxmollyn

[ChessieCat]

Whatever we do in withdrawal we need to make sure it is not activating.  I can recall, but can't find, that a member/s have had worsening of withdrawal symptoms from getting vigorous massage.

 

Non-drug techniques for dealing with physical pain

[Krasiyan]

Well I just had my first real panic attack this morning when I woke up. It felt like the original first panic attacks I had when I first started takng paxil years ago in the begining of my treatment. It starts with me having incredibly sharp chest pain and then losing self control and panaking over the pain and tightness thinking I will die or something. I'm ashamed I let it get the better of me because i'm supose to be wiser than before.

Edit: This shock like attack is the thing that got me on meds. Attacks like this one happend in the morning and in the night and scared me enough to develop agoraphobia. Later years pased and I stabilized on the drugs but yeah these were the things that started it all. It's the symtom that began it all, the original sin if I might word it that way.

[ChessieCat]

Sounds like you might need some help from Claire Weekes.

 

VIDEO: Dr. Claire Weekes

 

Claire Weekes' Method of Recovering from a Sensitized Nervous System

 

Audio:  How to Recover from Anxiety - Dr Claire Weekes

 

And if you go to YouTube and type in Claire Weekes that are lots of short videos there.

 

This is also a helpful audio:

 

Audio:  First Aid for Panic (4 minutes)
 

And understanding what is happening helps too:
 

Anxiety Stuff - all kinds of stuff about anxiety attacks and things that help ...

[Krasiyan]

Gonna look into it and will go get the paxil now because my withdrawal is so bad. I'l see if i can cut half a pill into 2.5 mg. If i can't i'l start with 5 mg untill it builds up in the next week. Will observe how my sitatuation changes on a daily basis.

[ChessieCat]

It is possible to my your own liquid to get a small dose and it will also be more accurate than cutting.

 

Tips for tapering off Paxil (paroxetine)

 

Make your own liquid
You can make your own liquid with water. See How to make a liquid from tablets or capsules

[Krasiyan]

Well it looks like withdrawal is really something on the cellular level.Not having Paxil in my system for 30 days is not a walk in the park. Anxiety and shock like reactions of the nervous system are occuring. Like a diabetic hungry for his insulin. (MOD NOTE: Please see this post about the chemical imbalance myth and SA's stand on its use) Because these things happen regardless of my mood or disposition continuing to subject myself to them would be a bad decision. Lets see what 5 mg of pure serotonin goodness can do. Starting from tomorrow. wink. Just to point out for anyone reading; this did happen because I tapered too fast so don't be discourged, if your going slow you'll probably get there.

 

Edited November 2, 2017 by ChessieCat
Added Mod Note

[Madeleine]

8 minutes ago, Krasiyan said: Just to point out for anyone reading; this did happen because I tapered too fast so don't be discourged, if your going slow you'll probably get there.

Hi krasiyan: you will get there too.  Good luck with the reinstatement. 

Sending you positive healing thoughts. 

M. 

[Krasiyan]

Nice to meet you Madeleine!

[Krasiyan]

edit: ops deleted by mistake. Was saying 2.5 mg might be even enough 5 mg seems to be more potent than I thought before.

[ChessieCat]

6 hours ago, Krasiyan said:

Like a diabetic hungry for his insulin.

 

This is a term which SA does not like being used.  This quote is by Altostrata, SurvivingAntidepressants' founder:

 

On 16/06/2011 at 4:45 AM, Altostrata said:

Insisting on nonsense about the causes of so-called psychiatric disorders and withdrawal syndrome. You'll need to do a lot of reading and credible citations to come up with original plausible theories.

Red flags for nonsense often found in pop psychiatry:

• Reliance on the "chemical imbalance" theory or that mental disorders are due to some kind of neurotransmitter deficiency.
• Claims that mood disorders are "brain disease,""diseased nerve pathways,""damaged signaling" etc.
• Reliance on neuroimaging or brain scans.
• Assigning specific functions to specific neurotransmitters ("dopamine is responsible for pleasure"). All neurotransmitters are multifunction; normal functioning depends on their all operating together.
• Making sweeping generalizations about "depression." One huge problem in psychiatry research is that there is no one definition of "depression" and studies use different measures for it.
• Publication in biological psychiatry journals.
• More to come, I'm sure.

The "chemical imbalance" or "serotonin deficiency" theories for mood disorders, which were in vogue for about 20 years, have been disavowed by medicine. There never was any basis for this. If a doctor tells you that is the reason for your distress, the doctor is wrong, misinformed, or not being straightforward with you.
 
This is also true of alternative or "natural" practitioners. The "chemical imbalance" theory is invalid wherever it pops up.
 
The "chemical imbalance" theory or its variants does not bear discussing any more than does a theory that says the sun revolves around the earth. It is a waste of time. This site will not add to the dissemination of this misinformation. Expect credulous discussion of such to be discouraged on this site.
 
See Again, chemical imbalance is a myth. Stop the lies, please. and Ronald Pies says doctors tell patients the "chemical imbalance" lie as a favor

 

 

My psychologist told me that I needed an antidepressant like a diabetic needs insulin.  I realise that you may have used this expression in the sense that at this time your brain needs the drug, however I am concerned that other members may be misled about the chemical imbalance.  The chemical imbalance is a myth which has been perpetuated by the drug companies.  Psychiatric Drugs: Do Psychiatric Medications Fix 'Chemical Imbalances' in the Brain, or Do They In Fact Create Them? Part 1 by Robert Whitaker