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DaveB: Trying to stop a roller coaster year

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DaveB
On 1/6/2018 at 9:05 PM, nz11 said:

 

Dave,

I don't recall seeing lyrica in the drug sig before maybe it was there and I missed it. 

I have a feeling its just been added in because I couldn't understand  why you doubled the dose of paxil to 40 last year and now I can see it was because the doctor  CT the lyrica at the same time. Also I have just re-read your whole thread and I have not seen one mention of lyrica even when cc repeated back to you what she thought you were on.

Its hard for people to give support when they only know a partial story. With so many drugs and changes its easy to forget something don't worry we know what it is like.

 600mg of lyrica for 2.5 months seems  a large dose to me but rereading it does appear doctors can  give people that kind of dose. but that is a lot to ct. 

No wonder you were  a mess last year. You talk often of 'anxiety' but I think you are really talking about wdl symptoms.

 

Yeah, I am a little embarrassed by the Lyrica. I left it out as when I was doing so poorly this spring, I kind of prescribed it to myself as something that was going to "cure" what was going on with me. I got one of my Dad's doctor friends to prescribe it based on my "research" and the whole thing was a huge mistake. The insurance wouldn't cover it and it was just too expensive, I was hoping since I was only on it for a short time I would be okay, but I got SLAMMED by withdrawals. At that point I was really struggling and I found my current Dr (who is great, I text him yesterday on a SUNDAY and he responded I should go back to 40mgs). He upped my Paxil to 40mgs and added the Zyprexa, though I am still in a daily struggle, I have been MUCH better since seeing him. So yeah, I left out the Lyrica as I was embarrassed and since it was a while ago, I didn't think it critical info, but after giving it thought I realized and agreed with your statement that I have bolded. 

 

Anyway, I just want to say thank you for your support and advice (and for paying attention enough to "catch" my Lyrica omission) and your persistence in talking me through a momentary period of semi-insanity where I thought I drop to 20mgs was a good idea. Hoping to stabilize to my pre-Christmas form (which was somewhere between 50-80% of normal) soon, but I know I have probably set myself back at least a month (maybe more). 

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Terry4949
On 06/01/2018 at 8:58 PM, brassmonkey said:

The actual dose amount is only a small part of the WD equation. Over the years of taking the medication your body had physically adapted to it.  Most of your serotonin receptors have been turned off (at 40mgai Paxil about 87% of the receptors have been turned off) and your body is accustomed to this, but requires a large amount of paxil in order to understand how to continue to function.  With out the paxil your body can't work right and causes WD symptoms. 

 

By changing the dose around the body gets confused because it has adapted to a certain amount of the drug and if it doesn't get it things go haywire.  Frequent changes in the amount of drug also sensitizes the body to the drug so the results of a change become more and more unpredictable with each change.  This change may have been easy, but the next could send you down the rabbit hole, and you don't want to go there. The body requires stability in dosing in order to slowly undo the physical changes and return the body to it's normal drug free condition.

 

In all most every case of CT, rapid taper or frequent large changes there is a "honeymoon period" during which the person feels better than they have for years.  That honeymoon period usually lasts three months and disappears over night. One day you're fine and the next you're feeling the worst that you ever have in your life.  Once that happens it can take a minimum of three months but more than likely over a year of careful dosing and mental gymnastics to stabilize to the point you can resume your taper.  Those three months to over a year are not pleasant, we have many, many journals here describing that period.  To a person those members wish they had listened, taken their time and done it using the method we have proved to work.

 

Given the high doses and multiple changes in your recent history and the ease of taking one pill and not having to worry about making up doses 40mgai is your best bet for the near future.  You're going to have to take it every day at the same time for at least six months, probably longer, for your body to stabilize.  Once fully stable, you can consider a very long very slow taper to try and minimize the symptoms as you reduce.  Going to a much lower dose will effectively be a CT in the way your body sees it and will throw it into chaos that will take years to undo.

 

As always the choice is up to you, but we have a huge amount of experience with doing this and fully understand the consequences of doing it wrong.

Brassmonkey sorry to jump in on this thread I have been following , but you say you tapered at 10% and you have got down with relatively a smooth withdrawel but you know people who went of c/t the same time and 6 years of they are still struggling , I was c/t by a doctor of all my meds 10 months ago and now I’m worse than ever so in 6 years I will still be struggling is that what your saying , then maybe I will need a medication to help through this so I can get some stability hold for a long while then taper really slow , you have worried me now , I had no choice in how I was stopped 

 

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Gridley

Don't kick yourself over the mistakes.  We have all messed up.

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nz11

Yeah I agree with Gridley

In fact the person who should be embarrassed is the doctor who prescribed the 600mg! 

I feel its actually unethical to allow people to self prescribe like this.

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Downbutnotout
2 hours ago, Terry4949 said:

Brassmonkey sorry to jump in on this thread I have been following , but you say you tapered at 10% and you have got down with relatively a smooth withdrawel but you know people who went of c/t the same time and 6 years of they are still struggling , I was c/t by a doctor of all my meds 10 months ago and now I’m worse than ever so in 6 years I will still be struggling is that what your saying , then maybe I will need a medication to help through this so I can get some stability hold for a long while then taper really slow , you have worried me now , I had no choice in how I was stopped 

 

Please help me understand this. I got taken off effexor 7 weeks ago very quickly. It is recommended I take 5,beads off effexor to updose. Does that mean it’s going to take me years to feel normal? Should I have tried to go up much higher then come down? 

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brassmonkey

Hi Terry and DBNO--  Going CT is the roughest possible way to get off of these drugs.  Some people can do it with no problems while others end up struggling for years.  There is no way of predicting how any one individual will react.  From what I have seen while being on this and other forums is that the people who CT, for what ever reason,  have the roughest time and take the longest to recover, and they eventually do recover.  From practical experience the only way to reduce the symptoms of a CT is to do a very small (1 or 2 mgai) reinstatement.  It doesn't always work but over the course of several months the body usually finds stability and starts to relax.  The further out from the CT the less likely it is to work, but we do have members who RIed after a year and still had some success.  Doing an RI can be a trick business but we cover all of the details in this thread:

 

About reinstating and stabilizing to reduce withdrawal symptoms 

 

I'm sorry to have caused people anxiety with my comments, but ADWD is a very harsh business that takes a very long time even when done right. 

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Terry4949
7 minutes ago, brassmonkey said:

Hi Terry and DBNO--  Going CT is the roughest possible way to get off of these drugs.  Some people can do it with no problems while others end up struggling for years.  There is no way of predicting how any one individual will react.  From what I have seen while being on this and other forums is that the people who CT, for what ever reason,  have the roughest time and take the longest to recover, and they eventually do recover.  From practical experience the only way to reduce the symptoms of a CT is to do a very small (1 or 2 mgai) reinstatement.  It doesn't always work but over the course of several months the body usually finds stability and starts to relax.  The further out from the CT the less likely it is to work, but we do have members who RIed after a year and still had some success.  Doing an RI can be a trick business but we cover all of the details in this thread:

 

About reinstating and stabilizing to reduce withdrawal symptoms 

 

I'm sorry to have caused people anxiety with my comments, but ADWD is a very harsh business that takes a very long time even when done right. 

Thankyou  brassmonkey I agree c/t is definitely the wrong way and the suffering is going to be harder I had no choice.  and if I could reinstate a small dose I would but I have been tried on 6 different meds over 12 months which would you reinstate and have been of Effexor for nearly 3 years so that’s a definite no , unfortunately I have found no stability and my body is in full blown withdrawel I wish it was otherwise , 

 

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brassmonkey

That's where it gets tricky Terry.  I'll have to go over to your thread and have a look around to see what I can come up with. Doctor inflicted CTs make me so upset, I need to go to the cursing thread too.

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Downbutnotout
2 hours ago, Terry4949 said:

Thankyou  brassmonkey I agree c/t is definitely the wrong way and the suffering is going to be harder I had no choice.  and if I could reinstate a small dose I would but I have been tried on 6 different meds over 12 months which would you reinstate and have been of Effexor for nearly 3 years so that’s a definite no , unfortunately I have found no stability and my body is in full blown withdrawel I wish it was otherwise , 

 

 

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Downbutnotout

I do feel slightly better since reinstating the 5 beads. I was told to give it more time. That’s all I can do.I'm thinking maybe I should add one or two more.  I’m not back to myself that’s for sure. 

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DaveB
On 1/7/2018 at 1:41 AM, brassmonkey said:

Take notes on paper to keep track of any symptoms/ changes that might crop up, if your memory is like mine was when I was in acute you'll need them. 

 

What is your story Brassmonkey? You mention your taper was somewhat uneventful, when were you in acute? Sorry if it has been told before, but it does me good to hear someone who has been acute like me and seen the other side. Again, thank you for your support and insistence on me not continuing down my poorly constructed path to stabilization. I am back on 40 now and it is in no small part to the advice and support from all you good people that helped me take my health into my own hands, instead of blindly following doctors orders "down the rabbit hole." Also, now that I am at 40 and trying to find stabilization again (seriously was so close in December...when I think of how close, it makes me very frustrated), how long should I be planning on holding? How long does it usually take someone to stabilize after a mess-up like mine? I am holding onto the fact that since I was semi-stable in December I can obviously get back to that point again. 

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Gridley

Yes, you can get back to that point.  It may take a few months.  By the way, this definition of stabilized from Brassmonkey is good to keep in mind:  

 

"Stability is not the absence of WD symptoms, but rather a steady state of feeling crappy without any major swings either direction."

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DaveB
24 minutes ago, Gridley said:

Yes, you can get back to that point.  It may take a few months.  By the way, this definition of stabilized from Brassmonkey is good to keep in mind:  

 

"Stability is not the absence of WD symptoms, but rather a steady state of feeling crappy without any major swings either direction."

 

Thanks Gridley, I will keep that in mind, unfortunately I am swinging very much from one direction to another. So if "stability" is months away and is still is feeling crappy, when does feeling good come?

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Gridley

"Crappy" doesn't mean terrible, just not as good as you felt before all this started and will feel later on.  Once you stabilize there will be windows when you feel good--no or almost no symptoms-- and waves when you feel not so good.  Yes, it's a lengthy process, one that none of us want to be in.  But we are.

 

You may well stabilize in a shorter time than months.  I just wanted to prepare you for that possibility.

Edited by Gridley

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brassmonkey

Hi Dave-- I so glad to hear that you've taken control. Now a nice long hold (several months at least) and let things stabilize, then we can slide you off of that nasty stuff.

 

Recounting six years of taper would take a long time but most of it's there in my intro thread

 

There was a lot more, 87 pages worth that recounted the early years at PriorPlace, but that has been lost to the cyber gods.  The short version is I worked up to 40mgai over 19 years.  Was in severe poopout for several years before finding PP and learning about tapering.  I started a 10% every 6 week slide.  Took about two and a half years to notice any real improvements then got progressively better until I jumped to "0" after tapering for  five and a half years. I will be drug free nine months next week and an going fine.  The picture on the link above I took in Kenya last year.  We're thinking about going back again in a couple of months. There are a lot more details in my thread.

 

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DaveB
1 hour ago, brassmonkey said:

Hi Dave-- I so glad to hear that you've taken control. Now a nice long hold (several months at least) and let things stabilize, then we can slide you off of that nasty stuff.

 

Recounting six years of taper would take a long time but most of it's there in my intro thread

 

There was a lot more, 87 pages worth that recounted the early years at PriorPlace, but that has been lost to the cyber gods.  The short version is I worked up to 40mgai over 19 years.  Was in severe poopout for several years before finding PP and learning about tapering.  I started a 10% every 6 week slide.  Took about two and a half years to notice any real improvements then got progressively better until I jumped to "0" after tapering for  five and a half years. I will be drug free nine months next week and an going fine.  The picture on the link above I took in Kenya last year.  We're thinking about going back again in a couple of months. There are a lot more details in my thread.

 

 

So were you having acute withdrawal symptoms when you were in poopout, or did you taper too quickly at 1st, before you started to "slide"?

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DaveB
On 12/12/2017 at 11:51 AM, Madeleine said:

It can make it feel worse, depending on how you approach it and what your thoughts are about it.   Maybe try to accept that there are rainy and sunny days, and when you have a rainy day, don't let it get you down, just do what you can when it rains -- e.g. stay inside, read a book quietly, etc. and have faith that the rain will end and the sun will shine again...

 

It looks like you went through something similar about a year ago and have since stabilized and resumed a successful taper. How long did it take for you to get stable again, when did you know you were ready to start a Zyprexa taper?

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brassmonkey

The acute phase started about two years before I started to taper when the 40mgai was pooping out on me.  It continued well into the third year of my taper.  The taper speed was fine the problem was the lack of stability caused by the poopout.  By it's very nature there is no way that a hold will stabilize the symptoms of poopout, the only way out is down.  As I was able to reduce my drug load my body was able to sort things out and get the upper hand and eventually stabilize. 

 

Although acute WD and poopout are related they are not the same thing.  Acute WD is a severe case of WD symptoms while poopout is the body tolerating the affects of the drug, trying to work around them and causing WD symptoms by doing so.  Then harder the body rejects the medication the more severe the symptoms.  This was the third time I had gone into poopout, it being the reason I updosed from 20mgai to 30mgai and again to 40mgai.  The 40mgai never really stabilized and caused the most trouble.

 

I started the slide method from my very first reduction and used it the entire time I was tapering.  I had to modify things a bit when I go to the micro-doses at the end of my taper, but that had little bearing on things.

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Madeleine
15 hours ago, DaveB said:

 

It looks like you went through something similar about a year ago and have since stabilized and resumed a successful taper. How long did it take for you to get stable again, when did you know you were ready to start a Zyprexa taper?


I was on Zyprexa for not a long time (see my signature line). I was prescribed it in the hospital. I started tapering soon after I got out of the hospital.  I tapered it slowly in small increments but steadily.  

One thing that helped me a lot was therapy (cognitive behavioural therapy).  It helped me to understand how I often brought on my own anxiety with my negative thoughts.  It's not going to totally alleviate withdrawal issues, but it helps me from getting anxious in the way I did before.  I went to a therapist, and it was quite expensive.  However, for a start, you could take a look at the book Feeling Good by David Burns.  It's an introduction to cognitive behavioural therapy.

My faith has also helped a great deal -- it helps a lot to "live and let God..."  and to pray.   

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DaveB
1 hour ago, Madeleine said:


I was on Zyprexa for not a long time (see my signature line). I was prescribed it in the hospital. I started tapering soon after I got out of the hospital.  I tapered it slowly in small increments but steadily.  

One thing that helped me a lot was therapy (cognitive behavioural therapy).  It helped me to understand how I often brought on my own anxiety with my negative thoughts.  It's not going to totally alleviate withdrawal issues, but it helps me from getting anxious in the way I did before.  I went to a therapist, and it was quite expensive.  However, for a start, you could take a look at the book Feeling Good by David Burns.  It's an introduction to cognitive behavioural therapy.

My faith has also helped a great deal -- it helps a lot to "live and let God..."  and to pray.   

 

Good advice on all counts. When you tapered Zyprexa did you cut that little tiny pill into halves (4ths?) or get some kind of liquid. I think when I resume a taper (not for some months, I promise Brassmonkey!) I would like to do Zyprexa 1st and want to know how you did it. 

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Madeleine
2 hours ago, DaveB said:

 

Good advice on all counts. When you tapered Zyprexa did you cut that little tiny pill into halves (4ths?) or get some kind of liquid. I think when I resume a taper (not for some months, I promise Brassmonkey!) I would like to do Zyprexa 1st and want to know how you did it. 


I cut the 2.5 pills by quarters when I was on higher doses. Then when I got to about 1.25 mg and lower I tried taking even smaller little pieces.    Check the thread on this forum on "tapering zyprexa" and also do a search on "zyprexa" in this forum and you will how others tapered. 

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DaveB

Seriously, I have gone in swings from feeling pretty good for a bit today, to honestly not sure how I can make it through the day. Are these swings to be expected with where I am at or is it a sign I am doing something wrong? 

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Gridley

These swings are to be expected.  Your CNS has gone through a lot of dose changes and is destabilized.  If you are holding at 40mg, you are doing right.  

 

Madeleine gave you some good advice.

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DaveB
On 1/9/2018 at 7:05 PM, brassmonkey said:

By it's very nature there is no way that a hold will stabilize the symptoms of poopout, the only way out is down. 

 

Although acute WD and poopout are related they are not the same thing.  Acute WD is a severe case of WD symptoms while poopout is the body tolerating the affects of the drug, trying to work around them and causing WD symptoms by doing so.  Then harder the body rejects the medication the more severe the symptoms.  This was the third time I had gone into poopout, it being the reason I updosed from 20mgai to 30mgai and again to 40mgai.  The 40mgai never really stabilized and caused the most trouble.

 

This may be a dumb question, but is it possible I am experiencing a form of poopout and my body is rejecting the medication and therefore a hold won’t stabilize me? I guess today has just turned out to be a doubting day as I have been so up and down.

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brassmonkey

You're not showing and signs of poopout from everything we've talked about, just being really unstable from all the dose changes.  There will be good and bad days on the way to stabilizing, but you'll get there.

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DaveB

Anyone have any info or experience on BCAAs in withdrawal. I am trying to get healthy and I have a protein shake that I combine with a banana and spinach, that contains BCAAs. They are supposed to be great for when you exercise giving you energy and I am hoping to use these to help me get off caffeine. Any info is appreciated. 

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DaveB

Could taking Klonopin for a few days instead of Paxil, and my quick trial of 20mgs really be causing me all this trouble? I am almost a week into my reinstatement of 40mgs and really not doing well. Having near constant anxiety, making it hard to enjoy anything or concentrate on stuff at work. So frustrating as I felt I was SO close in December. Windows and waves for sure, but there was undeniable progress. Now I feel squarely back at the beginning of trying to recover and stabilize. Could this really be from my mixup and 20mg trial or am I doing something wrong?

 

Also a question about caffeine, I have noticed that when I drink a coffee instead soda or monster energy drink, I will feel better for about an hour or two, before the anxiety comes roaring back. I know caffeine is suggested to be cut on this site in acute withdrawal, so wouldn’t you expect the opposite to be true. Caffeine to cause an anxiety spike for a few hours until it settles back down? Anyone else experienced anything like this?

 

Thank you all for being my lifeline in tough times!

 

PS. I stopped the BCAA’s I don’t think it is worth testing my body with any other supplement right now.

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DaveB

Also, I was doing some math today and realized at no point during this year have I stayed on the same meds at the same dose for longer than about 7-8 weeks...maybe that has been my problem?

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RachelSusan

HI Dave,

You've had 2 changes in a short period of time. It's not just the change in the Paxil but the change in the Klonopin as well, even if it was just for a short period of time. I've also reread your drug signature, and looked at the changes you made in 2017 alone.  I'm impressed that you still standing.  You must be superman. But in spite of being Superman please be kind to yourself.  Nice and easy does it.  Go slow and give yourself time to stabilize. 7 to 8 weeks for the same dose is not very long. You will be OK in the long run.  It's just the now that sticks. You've got so many great people advising you here you can't go wrong.

Best wishes for stabilizing quickly.

Rachel

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DaveB

Thanks Rachel! Sometimes I feel like I am trying to be Superman, but not even pulling off Clark Kent. Had a pretty good night last night (again after Dr Pepper with dinner, I am telling you my anxiety/withdrawal response to caffeine is weird!) and today hasn’t been too bad. I have had a semi-window I would say, hoping it is a sign of things to come!

 

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DaveB

Well that “window” closed quickly! Anxiety has been so bad today, I have been seriously considering checking into a hospital. One year into this nightmare and can’t believe how bad it is today!

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Rosetta
On January 12, 2018 at 2:58 PM, DaveB said:

Also a question about caffeine, I have noticed that when I drink a coffee instead soda or monster energy drink, I will feel better for about an hour or two, before the anxiety comes roaring back. I know caffeine is suggested to be cut on this site in acute withdrawal, so wouldn’t you expect the opposite to be true. Caffeine to cause an anxiety spike for a few hours until it settles back down? Anyone else experienced anything like this?

 

PS. I stopped the BCAA’s I don’t think it is worth testing my body with any other supplement right now.

 

Good question about caffeine.  I can hazard a guess.  I suppose if you are addicted to coffee, the energy drink or soda may not be giving you the "dose" your body is craving.  Getting your proper amount of caffeine calms you --- temporarily.  Then, the caffeine activates your alerting system -- fight or flight system -- and that system doesn't calm down quickly the way it would if you were not in WD.  There's an explanation on this site about why WD causes anxiety, and sometimes, intense anxiety.  It's about gaba, gaba receptors and the way that a destabilized CNS can result in all the neurotransmitters being out of balance.  I think it was written by Rhiannon if I'm not mistaken.  It's a good read, and it brought all of the theory of ADWD into focus for me.  

 

 

 

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Gridley

This may be the post from Rhiannon that you're talking about, Rosetta.  It's a good one.

 

Brain Remodelling

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DaveB
4 hours ago, Rosetta said:

 

Good question about caffeine.  I can hazard a guess.  I suppose if you are addicted to coffee, the energy drink or soda may not be giving you the "dose" your body is craving.  Getting your proper amount of caffeine calms you --- temporarily.  Then, the caffeine activates your alerting system -- fight or flight system -- and that system doesn't calm down quickly the way it would if you were not in WD.  There's an explanation on this site about why WD causes anxiety, and sometimes, intense anxiety.  It's about gaba, gaba receptors and the way that a destabilized CNS can result in all the neurotransmitters being out of balance.  I think it was written by Rhiannon if I'm not mistaken.  It's a good read, and it brought all of the theory of ADWD into focus for me.  

 

 

 

 

I think your Theroy makes some sense, thanks for weighing in.

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DaveB
3 hours ago, Gridley said:

This may be the post from Rhiannon that you're talking about, Rosetta.  It's a good one.

 

Brain Remodelling

 

This is good info, thanks! Today has been SO bad, I don’t know what happened? Should I just chalk it up to a bad day, or that something really wrong is going on?

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Gridley

Chalk it up to a bad day.  There will be some of those as your system stabilizes.  

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