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DaveB: Trying to stop a roller coaster year

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DaveB
3 hours ago, Gridley said:

Chalk it up to a bad day.  There will be some of those as your system stabilizes.  

 

Ok, it was just REALLY bad, worst day I have had in months. Not sure why that would be the case. I really thought about checking into a hospital as the anxiety was simply overwhelming!

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Rosetta

That's a good one, but maybe I'll find the other one.  

 

Maybe it was Gia K.  She was quoting an unnamed person from Paxil Progress, I believe.  I can't repeat it, but I'll try to give you a version of what I remember.  She talked about benzo addiction and the neurotransmitter called gaba, and it's job in your system.  She said the same sort of mechanism could be going on for ADWD.  She explained how destabilization caused by the sudden withdrawal of the drug for GABA activates the alerting system (fight or flight/adrenaline system).  GABA's job is to help that system calm down.  The WD of a drug acting directly on serotonin instead of GABA also results in an imbalance of the entire CNS due to the serotonin being out of balance.  That imbalance causes the gaba and dopamine to go out of balance even though the drug wasn't specifically made to act on GABA. The WD symptoms for benzo and AD WD overlap especially when it come to high anxiety (due to GABA being out of balance).  This lack of homestasis probably causes many other symptoms other than anxiety -- sleep issues, nausea, etc.   Then the killer is when the imbalance become self perpetuating (this has something to do with the adrenaline and cortisol being released and there being insufficient GABA or GABA receptors to calm everything down.)  The system is out of balance for periods of time (waves) and occasionally finds a balance but then loses that balance again when a new receptor for any one of the neurotransmitters is reactivated.  (That's probably not exactly the explanation, but it's the best I could do.)

 

The need for calming exercises is stressed a lot on this site.  I used to think I could not use these techniques because I was too anxious to focus, but, at some point, I became able to use them.  Then I found that I could short circuit the alerting system (fight or flight/adrenaline system).  I guess the idea is to try even if you can't make the relaxation techniques works because 

 

You are going to think something really wrong is going on every time you go under a wave until you finally just don't think that.  At some point you will be able to wrap your brain around the concept of neuro plasticity, kindling, how ADs and benzos work, etc.  You will start to think "Oh, it's another wave. Again??!"  It takes some getting used to.  It's so hard to believe the doctors can't fix this problem they created, isn't it?  

 

You had Paxil, I see.  I remember getting Paxil in 1998 I think it was.  It's not in my drug signature because I didn't stay on it, and I didn't take another AD until 2001, but maybe there's a reason to put it there.  I took it less than 10 days because I found myself slamming my head against a wooden fence over and over and over again.  I was trying to slam it harder and harder each time.  I was a 28 year old girl in an upscale neighborhood, and people could see me do this.  I didn't care.  I guess that was my first taste of Akathisia.  You see, in a world with a caring, ethical, humane medical system, I would have never been given another AD again, right?  Well, you know the answer.

 

I'm sorry you are in this mess.  I am somewhat ok now because I took the advice to stay off these drugs, but I didn't have a chance to taper.  It was too late when I found SA.

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Rosetta

Well, Dave & Gridley, I found the info I thought Rhiannon had posted, but I was quite confused on who posted it.   Not surprising these days, lol.  

 

Actually, what I tried to repeat on your thread, Dave, was written by none other than Altostrata herself and posted here: https://beyondmeds.com/2010/07/14/gabaglutamate/ (and there is an answer to it that clarifies some possible/ potential confusion about the fight or flight system.). Its a really great explanation of what might be happening to us nonetheless, of course, but it's still not the explanation I was thinking about when I mentioned it.  The one I was thinking of was written by a person who did not want to be identified.  

 

Sigh . . . I want my memory back.  Oh, well.  The Beyond Meds Altostrata article is very informative on the subject.  Maybe it's just a theory, but it made sense to me.  Having a possible explanation was nice.  I wonder if she still considers that theory a good possibility.  As for the other theory, I'm relatively sure GiaK posted it somewhere.

 

I hope tomorrow is much better, Dave.  Do you have black out curtains or a sleeping mask and a very gentle, quiet alarm to wake you?

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DaveB
14 hours ago, Rosetta said:

Well, Dave & Gridley, I found the info I thought Rhiannon had posted, but I was quite confused on who posted it.   Not surprising these days, lol.  

 

Actually, what I tried to repeat on your thread, Dave, was written by none other than Altostrata herself and posted here: https://beyondmeds.com/2010/07/14/gabaglutamate/ (and there is an answer to it that clarifies some possible/ potential confusion about the fight or flight system.). Its a really great explanation of what might be happening to us nonetheless, of course, but it's still not the explanation I was thinking about when I mentioned it.  The one I was thinking of was written by a person who did not want to be identified.  

 

Sigh . . . I want my memory back.  Oh, well.  The Beyond Meds Altostrata article is very informative on the subject.  Maybe it's just a theory, but it made sense to me.  Having a possible explanation was nice.  I wonder if she still considers that theory a good possibility.  As for the other theory, I'm relatively sure GiaK posted it somewhere.

 

I hope tomorrow is much better, Dave.  Do you have black out curtains or a sleeping mask and a very gentle, quiet alarm to wake you?

 

This is very good info, but doesn't give me much hope. It says: "Once disinhibition of the glutamatergic system takes hold, it becomes self-perpetuating. The whole question of neurotransmitter imbalance — a chimera of psychiatry anyway — becomes moot. No manipulation of serotonin, norepinephrine, or dopamine is going to help. In fact, it usually makes the condition worse."

 

So in other words, what I have attempted to do with a Paxil "reinstatement" to help with my Zoloft CT last year isn't going to help and "in fact, it usually makes the condition worse." So where does this leave me? Resigned to a recovery that will probably take years if it is successful at all? That isn't very encouraging. 

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DaveB
14 hours ago, Rosetta said:

I hope tomorrow is much better, Dave.  Do you have black out curtains or a sleeping mask and a very gentle, quiet alarm to wake you?

 

I actually started feeling a little better last night so that was helpful, and today has been much better than yesterday, though still a struggle for sure! Is it normal in withdrawal to feel more calm at night, seems my days are really grind it out right now, but nights are much more calm and closer to normal. This has been a pattern for me for pretty much the whole year, though depending on how strong the waves is, the level of nighttime relief is varied. 

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Gridley

It is pretty common to feel worse in the morning and better as the day progresses.  That is my pattern.  One explanation of this is that cortisol spikes in the morning and then lessens.

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DaveB
3 hours ago, DaveB said:

 

This is very good info, but doesn't give me much hope. It says: "Once disinhibition of the glutamatergic system takes hold, it becomes self-perpetuating. The whole question of neurotransmitter imbalance — a chimera of psychiatry anyway — becomes moot. No manipulation of serotonin, norepinephrine, or dopamine is going to help. In fact, it usually makes the condition worse."

 

So in other words, what I have attempted to do with a Paxil "reinstatement" to help with my Zoloft CT last year isn't going to help and "in fact, it usually makes the condition worse." So where does this leave me? Resigned to a recovery that will probably take years if it is successful at all? That isn't very encouraging. 

 

Anyone with any answers or insights into this? 

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Rosetta
4 hours ago, DaveB said:

 

This is very good info, but doesn't give me much hope. It says: "Once disinhibition of the glutamatergic system takes hold, it becomes self-perpetuating. The whole question of neurotransmitter imbalance — a chimera of psychiatry anyway — becomes moot. No manipulation of serotonin, norepinephrine, or dopamine is going to help. In fact, it usually makes the condition worse."

 

So in other words, what I have attempted to do with a Paxil "reinstatement" to help with my Zoloft CT last year isn't going to help and "in fact, it usually makes the condition worse." So where does this leave me? Resigned to a recovery that will probably take years if it is successful at all? That isn't very encouraging. 

 

Dave, That's what I thought at first, too, when I read that part about "disinhibition being self-perpetuating."  I thought: I'm doomed.  I wasn't.  You are not. 

 

Your mind is looking for the negative, of course.  Mine used to do that but now finds the positive more quickly.  That's another problem with everything being out of whack: Negativity to the extreme.  

 

Imo, the caveat to the statement about "disinhibition being self perpetuating" should be -- until the brain has a chance to repair enough of the structures to let the CNS start to function properly again.  Dysregulation of the CNS is not the same as disinhibition of the glutamate system.  Once the repairs are made such that dysregulation of the CNS is not constant, it is only a matter of time before the disinhibition can be corrected more quickly each time it occurs.

 

I'm no expert; I'm not a moderator; I know very little, but I can tell you what I understand of the theories.  I believe I understand the theories.  A moderator will correct me if I get it wrong, I hope.  I would never give you advice on what to do with Paxil or any drug, but when it comes to trying to understand what has happened to you, I'm happy to tell you my understanding of what these drugs do to the brain and what WD does to the brain.  I have experienced both.  I have not tried to reinstate.

 

Why did the Mods suggest reinstating Paxil instead of Zoloft?  I'm not comfortable answering that.  I think I know why, but please ask a Mod.  I could be wrong.

 

This is fantastic news: by afternoon or evening you feel better!!  This means that your CNS has taken back control.  That's wonderful news!  Mine did not do that quickly.  I was a wreck all day until I passed out from exhaustion at night.  Take that explanation I copied for you and combine it with the knowledge that cortisol spikes in the morning set off a period of anxiety. (Gridley mentioned this.). Then you can see that the explanation tells us why we feel terrible, but it also explains why we feel better in the evening or --after the brain has healed more -- better in the afternoon.  Your system is coping quite well if you are feeling calm in the latter part of the day.  The "self perpetuating disinhibition of the glutamate system" is not lasting all day.  It is being interrupted by your still properly functioning CNS when the sun goes down.  That is a great sign!!

 

My CNS system didn't take back control at first.  I was in horrible agony all day long.  The only relief I had was exhaustion and unconsciousness from that exhaustion.  If there was any difference between morning, afternoon and night, I couldn't feel it.  I suspect that my CNS was in dysregulation and my glutamate was out of control even while I slept.  I did not get restorative sleep.  I woke up feeling that I had not slept a wink.  I must have had some restorative sleep, but my symptoms indicated that it was not enough.

 

Eventually, there was some repair in my brain that gave my CNS the chance to regain control by the evening.  Then, I started to have the bad mornings and days, but better nights, and eventually I had better afternoons, too.  Now, I don't have cortisol spikes in the morning.  So, my CNS remains in control most of the time. It's a tenuous control; it's bumpy and there are lurches here and there.  There is still low level anxiety either in action all morning or threatening to come rushing out from the background.  If something scares me during the day, the whole CNS overreacts.  It's awful, but it resolves within a few hours.  My CNS regains control more quickly all the time.  Something in my brain has changed and the glutamate disinhibition is operating a shorter time than before.  

 

Also, that quote is not specific to people who have the chance to reinstate, either.  It's probably referring to people who do not reinstate the right drug, can't reinstate or have some other problem such that reinstatement did not work.  Guess what?  Even those people heal!  Like me.  So, of course, you will.

 

They say that WD is "bearable" with a successful reinstatement.  From my experience, I suspect that the reason they say this is because the CNS dysregulation and the glutamate disinhibition is not constant after the reinstatement works. Maybe the reinstatement helps the CNS regain control enough to give the person restorative sleep?  I wonder if that's what a Mod would say.

 

(Deleted information about your reinstatement that I mistakenly believed was pertinent to you, Dave, but wasn't.  I mixed you up with Justin.  Hmmm, I wonder why?  Sorry. I want my brain back!! DELETE this too: Maybe they can tell you what they believe about Paxil being the right one, and why they believe that.  As I said, I think I know, but I'm pretty new to all of this.)

 

There are no guarantees.  I know how badly you need a guarantee you have done the right thing with the right drug.  I can tell you that my WD, for a period of time, was not "bearable."  The return of restorative sleep was probably a turning point.  That gave me greater opportunity for more repairs to be made to my brain.  I waited until the disinhibition of the glutamate system stopped long enough for me to feel that had happened.  I started to believe in the theories on this site.  I started to believe that I would heal.  So I kept living and healing.  I'm very fragile.  My glutamate system does go off the rails sometimes, but I have faith that it will be quelled by my CNS operating properly at some point.  The wait for calmness to return is not as long as before.

 

It is so fantastic that your evenings are good and that you are not complaining about insomnia, but trust me, if you are sleeping, if you can relax in the evenings to any degree I believe you are going to be okay.  I know it's going to be bumpy; it's going to be frustrating; healing is not linear, but you are all ready healing.  You will be disappointed when you feel worse during a wave, but so many people are going through/ have gone through the same thing and they are healing.  Some of them are completely well.

 

Understand and believe this: when people say they are still healing years later they do not mean that they felt the same level of misery you feel now for all that time.  I think that gets lost in the shuffle when people say they are still healing at 12 months or 18 months or 2 years.  I wish I could have understood that early on.  It would have saved me a lot of worry.  If you worry, your stress hormone, cortisol, goes up starts up the whole miserable glutamate reaction.  But know this: You are not going to feel what you understand right now to be WD for years, I don't believe -- not unrelentingly.  You will get breaks from symptoms, and you will have the intensity of symptoms decrease to the level of mere annoyance.  Each time they come back, they will be different and of a different intensity.  The trajectory will be toward greater comfort and less discomfort overall.

 

Peace,

 

Rosetta

 

 

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DaveB
5 minutes ago, Rosetta said:

 

 

Why did the Mods suggest reinstating Paxil instead of Zoloft?  I'm not comfortable answering that.  I think I know why, but please ask a Mod.  I could be wrong.

 

 

 

 

 

Wow Rosetta, great post! You should be a moderator, bless you for your experience and your kind words. To clarify, they DID NOT advise me to reinstate Paxil, I found this site WAY too late into my journey after I had already tried to reinstate Zoloft (at too high a dose and not consistant) and Lexapro (probably the same issues as the Zoloft), and was already well into my Paxil journey. They are doing their best to sort through and clean up the crazy mess I had already made. Had I just reinstated 25mgs or less of Zoloft after being off for 3 months and held until I felt better, no question I would be in a much better place by now, but I unfortunately didn't know any different. 

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DaveB
24 minutes ago, Rosetta said:

Gridley feels that your reinstatement is off to a good start. Altostrata suspects the dose is too high.  However, at this point, they seem to feel there is evidence you reinstated the right drug.  Maybe they can tell you what they believe about Paxil being the right one, and why they believe that.  As I said, I think I know, but I'm pretty new to all of this.

 

 

Have they talked to you about me? I don't remember Gridley telling me my reinstatement is off to a good start, and Altostrata has never posted on this thread. 

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Rosetta
14 minutes ago, DaveB said:

 

 

 

16 minutes ago, DaveB said:

 

Wow Rosetta, great post! You should be a moderator, 

 

 

Ha ha!  Not quite!! Gee thanks, but I'm pretty clueless, I think.  The marbles are rolling around up there, and too many have fallen out of my ears.  However, I have been thinking all the same things you have been thinking (I'm doomed; I'm doomed). and I had answers to those "negative thoughts" courtesy of my new brain!  (My new brain which seems to think you and Justin are too much alike, but at least it's a new brain that is responding to CBT!  Yeah! )

 

Good God what a mess those "trusted medical doctors" have created!!  It must be really embarrassing to the ones who have opened their eyes.

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Rosetta
12 minutes ago, DaveB said:

 

Have they talked to you about me? I don't remember Gridley telling me my reinstatement is off to a good start, and Altostrata has never posted on this thread. 

 

Oh, my, you just "look" so much like Justin, Dave.  Are you brothers?  Ha ha.  Yeah, the bats my the belfry have done it again.  I'm sorry!!! He's the one who reinstated Paxil.  I edit my post to take that part out and put a short sentence in its place about my confusion.

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RachelSusan
4 hours ago, DaveB said:

So in other words, what I have attempted to do with a Paxil "reinstatement" to help with my Zoloft CT last year isn't going to help and "in fact, it usually makes the condition worse." So where does this leave me? Resigned to a recovery that will probably take years if it is successful at all? That isn't very encouraging. 

Hi Dave,

You mentioned that you think your Paxil reinstatement might have made your condition worse.  I believe it is possible. I do believe however you can stabilize, now, soon, near future. Once you stabilize I think you should start to feel closer to normal again. Then once you resume your taper it just might be possible that you do it slow enough that it sort of runs in the background of your life, meaning the symptoms aren't so awful that they are always front and center. So while you might be tapering for a long time you might not feel bad during that time. Hang in, stay at your same dose, you will get relief.  Again, we've got great moderators on this site, they will give you advice from their own experience and from what they have witnessed here. They often speak to each other sometimes giving slightly different opinions, other times one grand consensus.  They will try and help the best that they can. Dave, you will see improvement.

RS

 

 

 

 

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DaveB
20 hours ago, RachelSusan said:

Hi Dave,

You mentioned that you think your Paxil reinstatement might have made your condition worse.  I believe it is possible. I do believe however you can stabilize, now, soon, near future. Once you stabilize I think you should start to feel closer to normal again. Then once you resume your taper it just might be possible that you do it slow enough that it sort of runs in the background of your life, meaning the symptoms aren't so awful that they are always front and center. So while you might be tapering for a long time you might not feel bad during that time. Hang in, stay at your same dose, you will get relief.  Again, we've got great moderators on this site, they will give you advice from their own experience and from what they have witnessed here. They often speak to each other sometimes giving slightly different opinions, other times one grand consensus.  They will try and help the best that they can. Dave, you will see improvement.

RS

 

 

 

 

 

This was an encouraging and very much appreciated post, thank you. Had an okay day yesterday, but I am kind of grinding through today.

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Rosetta

Hi Dave,

 

Thanks for dropping by my thread.  I do hope that post was of use to you.  

 

I'm so new to all of this, but I think you and I were kindled.  You by your direct switch from zoloft to lexpro, me by my direct switch from Celexa to Zoloft.  I think a lot of people on this forum were kindled.  

 

Switching drugs is bad news, I think.  Heck, if missing a dose can kindle the brain then . . . Who does not miss a dose?  Who has never had some mistake, either theirs, their doctor's or the pharmacy's, result in a few days of no meds?  My time on Celexa had its missed doses as did my time on Zoloft.  Once you have that lack of the med then every time you miss a dose it's another strike against you.  Coming off too fast is the granddaddy!

 

You switched from Zoloft Lexapro to Lyrica and then to Paxil.  You became ill right after your switch to Lex?  That makes a year.  

 

For all the WD symptoms or side effects I had while on Celexa, it's clear in my misty memory that I never felt right after my switch to Zoloft in 2011.  I guess I could say I've been struggling since 2011.  I don't think of it that way because the two experiences, on and off Zoloft, have been so different.  My husband says I've been struggling (and he has too) since 2006 or 2007.  There was a lot of stress due to employment and family issues in my life starting in 2004.  That stress did not let up until about the time I decided to start tapering Zoloft -- late 2016.  The post-Zoloft time has been the most intense health-wise.  Maybe I simply don't remember most of the time I was on Zoloft or because I was manic it felt better than this post-Zoloft WD.  Somehow my Zoloft compensated for the lack of Celexa but not enough and not in 2015-16.  So, the CT from Zoloft was the final straw for my system after the prior kindling in 2011.  That's what I suspect happened to me.  

 

I hope your stabilization is easier and quicker than mine because you still have some Paxil helping you keep the brain somewhat steady wherever it can, and I hope your taper is smooth, Dave.  You may have it much easier than I did because you did not CT Paxil.  I hope so!

 

Rosetta

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DaveB
On 1/15/2018 at 5:30 PM, Rosetta said:

 

 

 

Ha ha!  Not quite!! Gee thanks, but I'm pretty clueless, I think.  The marbles are rolling around up there, and too many have fallen out of my ears.  However, I have been thinking all the same things you have been thinking (I'm doomed; I'm doomed). and I had answers to those "negative thoughts" courtesy of my new brain!  (My new brain which seems to think you and Justin are too much alike, but at least it's a new brain that is responding to CBT!  Yeah! )

 

Good God what a mess those "trusted medical doctors" have created!!  It must be really embarrassing to the ones who have opened their eyes.

 

23 hours ago, RachelSusan said:

Hi Dave,

You mentioned that you think your Paxil reinstatement might have made your condition worse.  I believe it is possible. I do believe however you can stabilize, now, soon, near future. Once you stabilize I think you should start to feel closer to normal again. Then once you resume your taper it just might be possible that you do it slow enough that it sort of runs in the background of your life, meaning the symptoms aren't so awful that they are always front and center. So while you might be tapering for a long time you might not feel bad during that time. Hang in, stay at your same dose, you will get relief.  Again, we've got great moderators on this site, they will give you advice from their own experience and from what they have witnessed here. They often speak to each other sometimes giving slightly different opinions, other times one grand consensus.  They will try and help the best that they can. Dave, you will see improvement.

RS

 

 

 

 

 

I figured I am going to give bi-monthly updates on the 1st and the 16th to keep track of where my symptoms are and where there has been improvement.

 

Symptoms I am struggling with:

 

Morning Anxiety - Not near as bad as it has been at times this year. I don't wake early, and am not all sweaty and panicky like I used to be. Just a really "keyed up" feeling that to varying degrees will last until about 5-8PM when I start to feel closer to normal (still not all the way there). In December before my stupid mistake and setback I would have days, not hours, when the anxiety was much less and those are sorely missed. 

 

Inability to concentrate or enjoy things - Not sure if this is separate or just an effect of the constant anxiety, nevertheless it is terrible and makes it hard to function. 

 

IBS - Has also been worse, but was pretty much resolved in December before my latest setback so that is frustrating. 

 

Oily Skin - Maybe was always an issue, but I don't think so. Could be a medication side effect?

 

Face Flushing and feeling "hot" (in the ears especially and in legs after workouts or at night). 

 

Pins and Needles -  A "light" feeling of pins and needles, usually in my legs.

 

Negative Thoughts - Pretty much based around this never getting better and looking at future events (ie Disney World with the family in September) and still dealing with acute withdrawal and not able to function or enjoy things.  

 

Symptoms that has gone away or are greatly reduced:

 

Sensitivity to Sound - This one started end of the summer, and started to get much better in December, it has not come back much with the recent setback. 

 

Sensitivity to Smell - This one is no longer an issue, stopped sometime in the fall.

 

Shaking (especially in the hands) - This was bad and is much better. I still notice it from time to time but usually my shaking is internal or "akathisia of the mind." 

 

Burning Eyes - Rarely if ever an issue anymore, in the spring and early summer, this was almost debilitating.

 

OCD - Was really bad at points this year, but is much better. The only OCD/Intrusive type thoughts I have now surround this never getting better and "what if" it becomes too much to bear. 

 

Wow, when I write it all out, it seems I have improved, even in my recent state of a HUGE setback. Hoping that means good things for the future and stabilization. Again, thanks to everyone for your encouragement in helping me through a REALLY rough patch right now.

 

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DaveB
5 minutes ago, Rosetta said:

Hi Dave,

 

Thanks for dropping by my thread.  I do hope that post was of use to you.  

 

I'm so new to all of this, but I think you and I were kindled.  You by your direct switch from zoloft to lexpro, me by my direct switch from Celexa to Zoloft.  I think a lot of people on this forum were kindled.  

 

Switching drugs is bad news, I think.  Heck, if missing a dose can kindle the brain then . . . Who does not miss a dose?  Who has never had some mistake, either theirs, their doctor's or the pharmacy's, result in a few days of no meds?  My time on Celexa had its missed doses as did my time on Zoloft.  Once you have that lack of the med then every time you miss a dose it's another strike against you.  Coming off too fast is the granddaddy!

 

You switched from Zoloft Lexapro to Lyrica and then to Paxil.  You became ill right after your switch to Lex?  That makes a year.  

 

For all the WD symptoms or side effects I had while on Celexa, it's clear in my misty memory that I never felt right after my switch to Zoloft in 2011.  I guess I could say I've been struggling since 2011.  I don't think of it that way because the two experiences, on and off Zoloft, have been so different.  My husband says I've been struggling (and he has too) since 2006 or 2007.  There was a lot of stress due to employment and family issues in my life starting in 2004.  That stress did not let up until about the time I decided to start tapering Zoloft -- late 2016.  The post-Zoloft time has been the most intense health-wise.  Maybe I simply don't remember most of the time I was on Zoloft or because I was manic it felt better than this post-Zoloft WD.  Somehow my Zoloft compensated for the lack of Celexa but not enough and not in 2015-16.  So, the CT from Zoloft was the final straw for my system after the prior kindling in 2011.  That's what I suspect happened to me.  

 

I hope your stabilization is easier and quicker than mine because you still have some Paxil helping you keep the brain somewhat steady wherever it can, and I hope your taper is smooth, Dave.  You may have it much easier than I did because you did not CT Paxil.  I hope so!

 

Rosetta

 

I actually Cted Zoloft at the end of October 2016, felt just fine until the end of January 2017 when I felt some anxiety creeping in. I tried to be "proactive" and started Zoloft again at my last dose of 50mgs and all hell broke loose. I have been all over the place on and off different meds for a year now trying to "treat" my anxiety. Paxil just happened to be the last one I tried before I found SA and realized I have been doing it all wrong by "trying" different meds. 

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Rosetta

I have to get outside before the sun sets.  Sunlight helps me.  I am certain of that, but quickly, have you seen the info about using "gentle exercise" instead of working out?  When I jogged, I was having the worst symptoms.  Exercise increases cortisol.  Maybe you would clam down earlier if you stop working out.  I had to stop and start walking instead.  Hatha yoga and moving meditation yoga may not be your thing, but it's also something I can tolerate.  Lifting weights doesn't bother me, but we are talking 5-40 pounds depending on the muscle.

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DaveB
On 1/15/2018 at 1:42 PM, Gridley said:

It is pretty common to feel worse in the morning and better as the day progresses.  That is my pattern.  One explanation of this is that cortisol spikes in the morning and then lessens.

 

On 1/16/2018 at 5:28 PM, Rosetta said:

I have to get outside before the sun sets.  Sunlight helps me.  I am certain of that, but quickly, have you seen the info about using "gentle exercise" instead of working out?  When I jogged, I was having the worst symptoms.  Exercise increases cortisol.  Maybe you would clam down earlier if you stop working out.  I had to stop and start walking instead.  Hatha yoga and moving meditation yoga may not be your thing, but it's also something I can tolerate.  Lifting weights doesn't bother me, but we are talking 5-40 pounds depending on the muscle.

 

On 1/15/2018 at 6:15 PM, RachelSusan said:

Hi Dave,

You mentioned that you think your Paxil reinstatement might have made your condition worse.  I believe it is possible. I do believe however you can stabilize, now, soon, near future. Once you stabilize I think you should start to feel closer to normal again. Then once you resume your taper it just might be possible that you do it slow enough that it sort of runs in the background of your life, meaning the symptoms aren't so awful that they are always front and center. So while you might be tapering for a long time you might not feel bad during that time. Hang in, stay at your same dose, you will get relief.  Again, we've got great moderators on this site, they will give you advice from their own experience and from what they have witnessed here. They often speak to each other sometimes giving slightly different opinions, other times one grand consensus.  They will try and help the best that they can. Dave, you will see improvement.

RS

 

 

 

 

 

MAYBE I am starting to do a little better. Mornings are still really hard and I have a few pretty good anxiety flare ups every day. Other than that, anxiety is constant but I can usually get about my day, despite feeling yuck. It is really just the mornings and the few flare ups where is become semi-unmanageable. I also seem to be falling a little into and every other day pattern, where I have a decent day (not good but ok) followed by a more grind it out day. I have seen the poster "Boomer" mention they have this same type of pattern and it seems they think Zyprexa could be causing it. Is that a likely effect of Zyprexa? Or would the likely culprit for me be more of the up and down of rapid cycling "windows and waves?" Overall I would say I am a little better than last week, so I guess baby steps in the right direction is still progress, correct?

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RachelSusan

Hi Dave,

 

Baby step are right.  I am glad to hear you have improvement, no matter how small.  I think the key to this whole mess is to roll with the punches. There will be bad days and there will be good days.  I think the trick is to look at the over all situation.  That's why I have a spread sheet of symptoms that I keep. When I look at the sheet I can see a visual and say to myself that over all I am better than I was 2 or 3 months ago. 

 

I know the symptoms are awful, the worst thing ever, but you are going to be alright.  It will take time and a lot of patience but you will come out of this and you will be healthy and whole again.

 

Rachel

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DaveB

Well...so much for the every other day theroy, today was a grind! Coming up on two weeks back on 40mgs and FAR from stable, hoping to see some improvements soon!

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DaveB
On 1/18/2018 at 9:11 PM, RachelSusan said:

Hi Dave,

 

Baby step are right.  I am glad to hear you have improvement, no matter how small.  I think the key to this whole mess is to roll with the punches. There will be bad days and there will be good days.  I think the trick is to look at the over all situation.  That's why I have a spread sheet of symptoms that I keep. When I look at the sheet I can see a visual and say to myself that over all I am better than I was 2 or 3 months ago. 

 

I know the symptoms are awful, the worst thing ever, but you are going to be alright.  It will take time and a lot of patience but you will come out of this and you will be healthy and whole again.

 

Rachel

 

Thanks Rachel, you give me so much hope when I need it most! After a REALLY rough day yesterday, my anxiety just totally shut off last night after about 7PM, so weird, I was pretty much my “normal” self. This morning hasn’t been as good as last night, but pretty good compared to what mornings have been for me. You are so great to stop by and give me hope when you are dealing with your own withdrawal problems! THANK YOU!!

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Rosetta

Awesome news that your anxiety shut off and you are having a better morning!!!

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DaveB

I started having muscle twitches today and because I am taking Zyprexa, it freaked me out about TD. It makes me REALLY wish I wasn’t taking Zyprexa, but there is no way I am ready to taper anytime soon, but am afraid I will develop TD as I wait to stabilize. Any thoughts or suggestions?

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brassmonkey

Muscle twitching is very common with paxil use.  I had it on and off for my entire taper.  Got better the lower I went.

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DaveB
4 minutes ago, brassmonkey said:

Muscle twitching is very common with paxil use.  I had it on and off for my entire taper.  Got better the lower I went.

 

Is TD something I should be concerned about with Zyprexa while waiting to stabilize? If I am on 2.5 msg of Zyprexa, how long and how far down should I taper before I “jump off?” Sorry for the questions, I am just a little freaked out by this.

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Rosetta

You can't worry about that right now.  It may never happen.  It probably won't happen.  I'm having dystonia now, and it's going away.  I'm not worried it will stay with me.  I'm really not.  However, worrying about those sorts of things is normal.  You have to practice pushing that thought out of your mind.  Try to distract yourself when the thought comes up.

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brassmonkey

I wouldn't worry about developing TD right now, but rather concentrate on getting stable and learning some coping tools to make the symptoms easier to bear. On any taper you want to go as low as possible before jumping off. For the Zyprexa probably in the range of 0.25mgai would be a good target, then when you get in that range see how you're feeling before making the jump.  It's understandable to be freaked by what is happening, it's pretty nasty business.  Have you read the thread on Dealing With Emotional Spirals? It's some good information to understand.

 

Dealing With Emotional Spirals

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RachelSusan

DaveB,

 

Just to reconfirm what everybody else has said.  Muscle twitches are part of withdrawal or sometimes just with each taper. On Jan 7 you went from 2.5mg to 2.0mg of Zyprexa. Is it possible that your decrease on Jan 7 is causing these twitches now?  The timing is right.  As for the various types of twitches there are many of them you might want to know about just in case they show up. There is my least favorite, which internal trembling. There are also external shakes, and twitches and of course there is the Hypnic jerk that happens right as your are falling asleep and it jolts you out of that peaceful slumber you are about to take and thrusts you into complete anxiety.

 

Dave, you have been on so many different drugs and dosages of medications the last few months that symptoms are to be expected.  They come, they go, sometimes they last for months at a time, or days, or hours, or sometimes for just seconds.  I know right now you need to hear from as many of us that we have all experienced them as well.  The symptoms you are experiencing are dreadful.  We are here to support you the best way we can.

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DaveB
1 hour ago, brassmonkey said:

I wouldn't worry about developing TD right now, but rather concentrate on getting stable and learning some coping tools to make the symptoms easier to bear. On any taper you want to go as low as possible before jumping off. For the Zyprexa probably in the range of 0.25mgai would be a good target, then when you get in that range see how you're feeling before making the jump.  It's understandable to be freaked by what is happening, it's pretty nasty business.  Have you read the thread on Dealing With Emotional Spirals? It's some good information to understand.

 

Dealing With Emotional Spirals

Great info, I often get caught in an "anxiety spiral." For instance, watching a football game yesterday there was a big helmet to helmet hit on Gronk, I said "wow that was a big hit, he probably has a concussion...I hope he is ok...lots of ex-football players are developing CTE from multiple concussions...I remember Junior Seau shot himself in the heart to escape his damaged brian...my brian feels damaged, what if I end up thinking that is my only way out...what would that do to my kids and wife..." Something a trivial as watching a football game lead to hours of anxiety over something I clearly would never do as just thinking about it caused me a night's worth of anxiety. "Changing the channel," is good advice and something I need to work on, thanks for the link Brassmonkey!

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DaveB
11 minutes ago, RachelSusan said:

DaveB,

 

Just to reconfirm what everybody else has said.  Muscle twitches are part of withdrawal or sometimes just with each taper. On Jan 7 you went from 2.5mg to 2.0mg of Zyprexa. Is it possible that your decrease on Jan 7 is causing these twitches now?  The timing is right.  As for the various types of twitches there are many of them you might want to know about just in case they show up. There is my least favorite, which internal trembling. There are also external shakes, and twitches and of course there is the Hypnic jerk that happens right as your are falling asleep and it jolts you out of that peaceful slumber you are about to take and thrusts you into complete anxiety.

 

Dave, you have been on so many different drugs and dosages of medications the last few months that symptoms are to be expected.  They come, they go, sometimes they last for months at a time, or days, or hours, or sometimes for just seconds.  I know right now you need to hear from as many of us that we have all experienced them as well.  The symptoms you are experiencing are dreadful.  We are here to support you the best way we can.

 

Sorry, that is a typo on my drug signature, I have not messed with my Zyprexa dose (maybe the only thing I have done right in the last year, haha). I am still taking 2.5 mgs of Zyprexa. The twitches are already less today, and at my dose of Zyprexa TD is very much not a likely scenario. Not sure why I let it freak me out like I did. Still holding and to be honest, doing much better overall than I was a few weeks ago. Still have a long way to go, but I feel I am getting closer to my December baseline at least, which is improvement. 

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brassmonkey

Such an excellent description of a spiral Dave.  It truly is amazing what little things can set off such a huge reaction.  I'm so glad that the thread was helpful.  Picking up on the triggers and cluing in on the start of the progression takes some observation and practice as does changing the channel but it is so worth the effort in the long run.

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DaveB
On 1/22/2018 at 10:56 PM, brassmonkey said:

Such an excellent description of a spiral Dave.  It truly is amazing what little things can set off such a huge reaction.  I'm so glad that the thread was helpful.  Picking up on the triggers and cluing in on the start of the progression takes some observation and practice as does changing the channel but it is so worth the effort in the long run.

 

The muscle twitches have pretty much resolved themselves now, not sure why I let myself get so worked up about TD from simple muscle twitches. Today I woke with no shakiness, no early morning IBS (trying to look for positives), but my anxiety is REALLY high. Did you have this during your acute phase, can I expect the anxiety to lessen as I stabilize. Some days and moments of the day I feel like I am headed in the right direction, and starting to stabilize, then it is like the anxiety overwhelms me and I worry I am never going to get better. 

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Rosetta

Hi Dave,

 

You are feeling pretty anxious I see.  Try to take a moment to count your breaths.  That's good news that you have moments when you feel you are headed in the right direction!

 

Rosetta

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brassmonkey

My anxiety would come in waves that would last several hours to several weeks. In fact I just went through a two week wave of it in December.  Acceptance and deep breathing were the only things I found to help.  The anxiety we get in WD is frequently drug induced and not emotional.  That makes it a big difference in how to handle it.  Emotional anxiety can be talked through, reasoned with and decreased.  Drug induced anxiety can't, because it's chemically controlled not emotionally controlled.  Deep breathing exercises can take the edge off a bit and help you to stay calm.  Acceptance of the situation is the best way to get through it.  Until it clears up on it's own, this level of anxiety is your current baseline and it will fluctuate of it's own accord.  Ignoring it as best as possible is key. Not feeding into it is essential, that will only give it power, make it worse and trigger a downward spiral.  It is very uncomfortable, takes a lot of energy and will leave you drained but the anxiety will not harm you and in time it will resolve. Do a site search on AAF and you'll find a lot of good information.

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DaveB
19 minutes ago, brassmonkey said:

My anxiety would come in waves that would last several hours to several weeks. In fact I just went through a two week wave of it in December.  Acceptance and deep breathing were the only things I found to help.  The anxiety we get in WD is frequently drug induced and not emotional.  That makes it a big difference in how to handle it.  Emotional anxiety can be talked through, reasoned with and decreased.  Drug induced anxiety can't, because it's chemically controlled not emotionally controlled.  Deep breathing exercises can take the edge off a bit and help you to stay calm.  Acceptance of the situation is the best way to get through it.  Until it clears up on it's own, this level of anxiety is your current baseline and it will fluctuate of it's own accord.  Ignoring it as best as possible is key. Not feeding into it is essential, that will only give it power, make it worse and trigger a downward spiral.  It is very uncomfortable, takes a lot of energy and will leave you drained but the anxiety will not harm you and in time it will resolve. Do a site search on AAF and you'll find a lot of good information.

 

Thanks Brassmonkey, good information as always. I wish it would "clear up on its own" a lot sooner than it is! However, I do think my shakiness being pretty much non-existent, as well as sleeping pretty well and no longer getting nauseous in the morning (all of these were issues 3 weeks ago) point to starting to stabilize. I just suck at being patient, but boy am I getting a crash course in it and will be better for it when this is more settled. 

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