Needing to eat frequently to avoid intensification of symptoms?

[JamesF]

This has been one of my most annoying symptoms during withdrawal, and shows no sign of slowing down in reinstatement, although it is early days. 

The deeper I got into withdrawal, the more frequently I found I had to eat. I used to go 16+ hours a day without eating and feeling absolutely fine. 

If I don't eat for a while now, I get increased shaking, trembling, dizziness, intense agitation, total inability to sleep and intensification of other withdrawal symptoms. And all seem to increase steadily until the point at which I eat something. Then it will go back to a somewhat lower baseline again. 

To begin with, I thought it was blood sugar crashes. But the interesting thing is that it's turned out to have nothing to do with blood sugar. I bought a blood sugar monitor and checked frequently. Diabetes was ruled out too. It seems like stress hormones just increase like a crazy cascade up until the point something goes into my mouth, then it somehow resets the body back toward "rest and digest mode". 

It could also be that having an empty stomach and fasting is just inherently more stressful for the body, cortisol and other stress hormones are released. A sign of a dysregulated nervous system?

 

But this explanation lacks some clarity too, so I'm still confused. The worst manifestation of this is waking up in the middle of the night extremely trembling and agitated, then having to rush shakily downstairs to stuff half a sandwich into my mouth after only having eaten a few hours before. If I continue to lay in bed, it's absolutely impossible to sleep and agitation just seems to rise and rise and rise. The only way to get sleep to come is to eat something. Yet it's definitely not blood sugar, I keep checking and it's perfectly normal and stable. Strange eh?

I really don't want to eat frequently, but I'm having to eat about every 4 hours throughout the day just to control my symptoms. Eating is actually the best way I've found to diminish the symptoms that surfaced during withdrawal, and I've tried just about everything. 

Do you (or did you during withdrawal) have a need to eat frequently and in the middle of the night?

Anyone also find alleviation of symptoms when you eat?

Warm regards, Jay

[bheb]

Yes I find that eating helps my agitation sometimes. However, in my case, I think it has to do with the stress of being hungry. What I mean is that I mentally get more frustrated with being hungry and it kind of spills over into my physical agitation. And secondly, I think getting up to eat in the middle of the night helps me because I get out of bed and move around. 

 

So, a little different from your situation. But I do have the urge to get up and go eat something in a bad spell of akathisia. And it sometimes gives me some temporary relief.

[Rob66]

I can agree with this.  I always feel best when I'm adequately fed.  Eating low carb with plenty of healthy fats and protein keeps me happy.  Too much high glycemic food worsens my mood and increases my appetite.  

[PoetJester]

Hi James

 

i have the same thing with the eating.  i am constantly having to cram food in my mouth in wd.   it's almost not hunger, but like a gnawing in my stomach and to even have a chance at sleep i have to really gorge on high fat/protein foods, i mean stuff myself.   i used to be able to sleep with not a lot of food in me, but in wd, i have to really fill my belly as full as possible to sleep and even then i hardly sleep much or well.  i had read online somewhere that sleep deprivation can lead to hyperglicemia and i am guessing that's what my problem is as on no sleep days the problem is even worse,  i am eating full 3 course meals every two hours or so on those days.   i basically spend whole days just constantly eating and defecating and not being able to sleep no matter how exhausted i am.  it's hell.

 

poetjester

[LilyBlueRose]

Oh yes! This big time for my husband and I. 

[JamesF]

Glad to see we're not alone with this one @Kalinia @Rob66 @PoetJester

 

On the one hand I think it's  wise to listen to our bodies and just eat whenever and as much of whatever as needed. On the other, I could see how (at least my) doing this for an extended periods might establish strange patterns where your body expects/habituates to eat before bed, in the middle of the night, etc, which might stop it returning to a normal pattern. I'm going to try and stop eating in the middle of the night for a while.

 

During early withdrawals I think one of the big things that destabilised me even more was adopting intermittent fasting (eating for only 6-8 hours windows out of 24). This was advised because it's supposed to speed up healing and recovery for many illnesses. But in hindsight, during withdrawal it seems really ill advised, because stress hormones like cortisol keep you running when your body is in fasting mode. Maybe fasting intensifies withdrawal symptoms and actually slows recovery. 


@PoetJester have you ever tested your blood sugar when you're not eating, out of curiosity? I thought I was getting low blood sugar every time I felt like this, because the symptoms were exactly the same. But after buying a blood sugar monitor and testing about 50 times it turns out it's actually quite stable. It seems the mere presence of food or digestion somehow diminishes stress hormones or withdrawal symptoms. That gnawing feeling sounds familiar. Kind of like a gnawing, shaky weak feeling that intensifies the longer without food. Somewhere between fragility and agitation. It can't even be described as hunger, but I've learned it means that I must go and eat. Most intense if waking in the middle of the night, and returning to sleep is definitely an impossibility if I don't go munch on something substantial

 

 

 

 

[PoetJester]

Hi James 

 

(sorry if this post is a bit disjointed or even confused.  i resorted to seroquel last night for my sleep problems and feel like i almost sustained a head injury.  my eyes were rolling around in my head like a cartoon character's after getting out of bed after 6 hours of sleep.  it felt like i had been knocked cold and had a severe concussion.  i staggered down my apt hallway and it took a little while of staring at the stove to figure out how to make my morning coffee.  not good.  plus it's late over here.   hopefully, there are a few ideas here to think about.  its been hard to be my own doctor while i don't sleep much or have access to much medication wise)

 

no, i have never had my blood sugar tested.  this will sound strange, but i did do a parasite cleanse back in 2016, about 2 1/2 years into wd, and that alleviated many of my digestive problems for a couple of days, anyways.  i had bought something called Kroeger's Wormwood Complex online, because, after having a beer for the first time in years in June of 2016 ( i had started having 2-3 pints of beer nightly in the summer of 2016 as a way of falling asleep in wd), i had instantly developed horrific fecal breath overnight.  it was awful and beer or no beer it never went away.  i was sure it was some sort of intestinal issue.  i felt constipated all the time and had this awful fecal taste in my mouth. nothing else had changed in my life except that i had drank beer for the first time in years the previous evening .   i did a little online searching and found that fecal breath can be caused by parasite infestation.  it seemed to make sense, that in a weakened body (my sleep has been horrible since wd. terrible eye bags from all the sleep deprivation), parasites might take hold, so i bought some of the wormwood pills online.  

 

i had also unknowingly become anemic on zoloft and zyprexa the last 8 years on the pills, i was sleeping 15+ hours a day and was always tired no matter how much i slept.  i  almost never left my apt in those 8 years because i was too tired.   i later found out in wd during a visit to the doctors, that i had iron deficiency anemia and found out online that zoloft is known to cause it by causing malabsorbtion in the intestinal track.  oddly though, anemia can also be a sign of intestinal parasites (possibly anti depressants weaken our bodies natural immune systems)      Looking back, i also moved into an apt complex in 2006 with highly chlorinated drinking water (which may have reduced my stomach acidity allowing parasites to flourish).  My severe fatigue/hypersomnia dates back to this time.   i also, during those years, developed a full body yeast infection, my genitals smelt like moldy gym socks for years and my breath like rotten cauliflower ever since moving into the apt complex.  my blood felt acidic the whole time, like my ph was way off.  i drank alot of coffee and felt totally dried out all this time, but i was too tired to do much about it and my gp didn't seem to care much and shot me down when i mentioned i thought i had a yeast problem saying that kind of thing only happened in people with compromised immune systems..    

 

Anyways, to get back to the wormwood, i took the Wormwood capsules one evening in late 2016 and within a half hour i was bombarded with bowel movements. Probably every half hour or so, i was having a full movement.  i am sure this is tmi, but i was finding all sorts of stuff in the bowl.  after the first bowel movement, i had one full of a weeks worth of dehydrated apple chunks from the instant oatmeal i eat for breakfast (apparently they don't digest well) and then a movement with lots of 2 inch long clear strands that i am pretty sure were parasites or worms of some kind and later all kinds of rice shaped larva.  i lost about 5 lbs in two days, and many of the ibs symptoms i have had in wd had cleared up.  i had been sneezing profusely after meals and really snotting up.  i would sneeze for minutes and end and have to blow my nose after every meal.   i am assuming i had developed a gluten sensitivity in wd.  the after meal sneezing went away the first day taking the wormwood pills and also my fatigue issues,  where i would have trouble staying awake after meals, also cleared up..  i know the parasite thing sounds far fetched (i have even been called crazy on this website for mentioning it in a post) and maybe my observations of what i found in the toilet bowl were wrong, but for 2 days, i had no after meal congestion and all sorts more energy.   the problem though, is that wormwood can be hard on the kidneys.  some people can tolerate a 7-10 day cleanse taking a couple pills a day while others end up with massive fatigue and in the ER due to damage to the kidneys.   i was among the latter, even though i didn't end up at the ER.   On the third day on the pills, it felt like i had been rabbit punched in the kidneys.  my breath started smelling like ammonia and i figured it was time to call it quits with the wormwood experiment.  my congestion and fatigue came back the next day. 

 

Derek

 

ps.  i have brought up all these issues with my gp's and gastro doctors and also a doctor of infectious medicines and have yet to receive any real help.   i have been told to take miralax (adverse reaction, couldn't get up off the couch for the day.  probably kidney related), start a low fodmap diet and to stay away from beer and that's been about it.  one gastroenterologist i saw speculated that i may have slept with my mouth open the first night i drank beer causing the fecal breath.  that was all the further he would speculate. thanks.  i slept with my mouth open for 8 years with drool soaked pillows due to the effects of zoloft and zyprexa, and while my breath stank, it didn't have the distinct fecal quality to it.  i also this year developed an overnight allergic reaction to beer or any alcohol.  as much as one beer will have me over my kitchen sink an hour later puking my guts out as if i had had 20 drinks and then sitting in the kitchen shivering feeling close to death.  it's called sudden onset alcohol intolerance.  i had read one online forum where someone had mentioned that they had developed this alcohol intolerance and had been tested for SIBO (small intestinal bacterial overgrowth) and the test had come back positive and after a treatment with antibiotics their problem had gone away and they were able to drink again.  apparently something goes wrong in the intestines bacteria wise and the alcohol is no longer broken down before entering the liver.  i have pleaded with 3 doctors  ( 2 gp's, one my regular gp, and the other, a new lady gp, i had been seeing, because of problems i was having with my regular gp,  and a gastroenterologist) for a simple script for an anti biotic and have been shot down every  time.   The new lady gp who i had seen and  had promised to look into writing me a script if i could point her in the direction of a website from an accredited online institution that talked about SIBO treatment and sudden alcohol intolerance since she was unfamiliar with the condition, even turned down my request despite giving me her word "to see into writing me a script"  i had called the office a day after visiting her office  and mentioned John's Hopkins (one of our nation's leading medical institutions)  website for her to check into where they specifically discussed these problems and mentioned treatments.  i got a call back saying that she couldn't "willy nilly" write scripts for anti biotics.  "Willy-nilly" is also the phrase my regular gp of 11 years now, had earlier used when i had seen him and asked for a script for an anti biotic (i had read that Rifaximin can often be effective with SIBO) he had  turned me down.  "i can't just write scripts willy nilly for anti biotics".  (she had agreed on her own accord, but my regular gp is one of the senior doctors at my clinic and she just started there,  and i think she must have brought it up with him and he got her ear and put the kibbash on her plan to help me)  he told me i needed a diagnosis before he could write a script and when i asked him what kind of test the clinic had for alcohol intolerance, he said they had none. the old catch 22.  thanks.  he never did any follow up work or research or contacted me again, but just let me suffer.  ( he also told me when i went into his office earlier this year that a finger that had become crooked at the top joint, which i looked online and was pretty sure was something called a heberdon node, a form of arthritis, was not a heberdon node, but that i had jammed my finger incredibly hard without my knowing it. i think i must reside in hell or somewhere close) the only advice i have received on the alcohol intolerance from my clinic was from a nurse calling me back who only told me to stay away from beer even though i am suffering constant bloating/constipation and fatigue and occasional nausea, besides.  i basically am being told i will not be offered any treatment until i undergo a colonoscopy, which seems like a huge burden for someone in my health, especially considering the day long liquid fast and laxatives you have to take (which plenty of people can not tolerate- google biscodyl reviews sometime), the sedation and also since alcohol intolerance and the root cause of my fecal breath won't show up on a scope and the only explanations i have had for any of my problems are that i may have polyps and that i should again, stay away from beer.  Sorry, to go on at length and the slightly confused message (it's late over here and i am already beginning to do the "how will i sleep" thing), James, but basically what i am saying is that i am running into a lot of policy pushers and dunderheads in charge of our medical services over here..  i am sure that people do occasionally receive competent care at times, i just don't happen to be one of them

[Waterfall]

Hey JamesF, 

 

I think I have/had something similar.  I've had it before, and it did go away again as well, but it has also come and gone since.  Right now I seem to have a milder case.  I still get shaky, agitated, etc, when I don't eat often enough, just not as bad as I used to.  I have had it suggested to me many times before that it's probably low blood sugar.  Especially by one friend of mind who happens to have diabetes.  But every time that I've had blood tests, which has been a more than a few times, my blood sugars always come back as normal.  I was actually just contemplating buying a blood sugar monitor myself to see if my blood sugars are actually having an affect on my symptoms and how often I have panic attacks, if there was any connection at all.  I'm pretty sure, that like you, my blood sugars are actually pretty stable, but whenever I don't eat regularly, including during the middle of the night, I get symptoms.  I've always called them 'episodes', where I just feel worse and worse until I eat.  For a while I carried food with me everywhere to make sure I could eat something if one of these 'episodes' happened.  After the first time I had it several years ago, it did seem to go away again.  And come back.  And go away.  And come back.  And go away.  It had gone away for several months when it came back again this fall.  I had a few bad 'episodes' off and on, and while it's a bit better again right now, I still notice that I feel lousy if I don't eat, and better after I do. 

 

Not that I feel hungry, certainly not in the way I'd expect, but I start to get nervous and shaky and sometimes feel like the front of my abdomen is trying to push itself into my spine.  Sometimes I've had a sudden very intense feeling of hunger, but that's not what usually happens.  Usually I feel more like I'm sick, which makes me want to do anything but eat, which is why it took me a while in the beginning to learn that eating was in fact the only thing that would make me feel better.  So counter-intuitive to me.  I always got by on a don't feel well, don't eat policy.  This just felt and still feels to me, kinda... wrong.  And yet, it is the way it is. 

 

When I wake up at night, though, I usually do feel hungry, when I'm struggling with this pattern, anyway.  I'll wake up, and there is no way I'm going to get back to sleep unless I eat something.  I always had to eat a big snack before bed, and that on top of a nice big late supper.  I found that one of the best things to do in the middle of the night, for me, was to have a warm, thick drink.  It used to be milk, but I haven't been able to tolerate milk anymore for some years already, so I have cashew milk now.  I always thought I was giving my body just enough calories or whatever to deal with the blood sugar and enough substance to deal with the digestive juices.  Hearing your account makes me think that maybe it was just enough to give my body what it needed to get back into rest and digest instead of whatever other state it was in.  I find right now that even a decent sized glass of good warm, almost hot water, helps me to get to sleep at night.  Puts enough in my stomach to help me feel a little more settled.  Dilutes the acidic juices, helps me feel a bit 'full' even though I haven't eaten anything.  

 

Anyway, that's all to say that I think I'm a bit familiar with what you are going through.  I've had something similar, though perhaps not quite as intense.  It feels good to hear this from you, to know that my own situation is perhaps not all that unique, and what you've had to say may have helped me to understand my body a little bit better.  I really hope that for you, like for me, that it does get better again over time, and even if it comes back now and again, that it will reduce from the intensity that you are experiencing right now.  Sorry if I droned on a little and if it's a little disjointed.  

 

Wishing you all the best. 

[littleball]

Always hungry, yes, I can relate. My appetite's been always good, but I've never had this perpetual and strange hunger. 

For example, for dinner I had a large piece of salmon with baked potatoes, avocado salad and a piece of cake, but now I am like starving. 
What is it with this constant sense of hunger, which makes me feel strange, dizzy, confused and weak and affects my capability of falling asleep in the evening. My head usually aches so uncomfortably at this point, it's not like common headache. Everything is strange with my body and my mind. 

I was blaming my bad habit of skipping meals occasionally, mainly breakfast or lunch as I sometime get up very late. But it can't be just because of this. Like today for example, I don't know why I feel like this. 

So I've started to think that it is another withdrawal "gift" and bingo here we go.

[JamesF]

Things have shifted a little bit for me since reinstating sertraline.

 

I used to have to bolt out of bed in the morning to shove something in my mouth, since I'd wake up super shakey and weak. Eating seemed to diminish symptoms. I felt more and more ill if I didn't eat something.

 

This has reduced the last month or so. I often don't feel like I need to eat for about 30 minutes after waking up. Which is remarkable.

 

Also reduced in parallel is what's referred to here as the cortisol awakening responsive. The normal waking response going crazy so you wake up with a sense of intense fear, dread, agitation, strange intense symptoms, etc.

 

What's still here is not being able to sleep without eating something within about 30 mins before sleep. I still lie there unable to sleep if I haven't done so. Hopefully this will begin to resolve with more nervous system stability...