JohnnyBoy: Rock bottom meltdown! Mirtazapine and Diazepam withdrawal

[JohnnyBoy]

Hello everyone, hope you are all hanging in there! Welcome to my story.

 

I have included the basics within my signature and will expand where needed. I have only recently found this site, it seems it's going to be somewhere I'll be spending a lot of my time in the near future.

 

Benzodiazepines

 

I've dealt with the nightmares of Benzo withdrawal many times, panic attacks, heart palpitations and the endless list of ailments that come with it. My history of Benzo's began two years ago and I've tried many times to withdraw and remain withdrawn. I recently went my longest time ever (70 days) and was feeling better and better every week. I knew protracted withdrawal symptoms were bound to come in waves, but I kept telling myself I was over the worst. Then began the breakdown....

 

Mirtazapine

 

My only other medication was good ole Mirtazapine (Remeron). I have also been on that for the same length of time but dosages, where somewhat, consistent when compared to my benzo usage. I had been on various dosages of Mirtazapine, over the two years I think I was always wanting to come of it but knew it was definitely having a positive effect on my sleep. I just had the mindset of not wanting to be dependent on any meds, due to my experience with benzo's.

 

The Breakdown - INSOMNIAC

 

I was 70 days clear from benzos, I felt immensely proud and positive about the future. Sometime during these 70 days, I began to lower my dose of Mirtazapine (30mg) to 22.5mg and then two/three weeks later I went down to 15mg. The week I was on 15mg I was just not feeling right, felt like flu-like symptoms, but mostly a heavy chest and overall lethargic feeling. I remember that I woke up a couple hours before my alarm one morning, something I've never done in the past. So I said to myself, "I'm going to go back up to 30mg and I bet this felling goes away". I took 30mg and the next day the symptoms had cleared up a lot, but then came that nightime...I couldn't fall asleep. I'd took 30mg for the second nigh but was not falling asleep. This had never happened before. As the hours went by, I became more panicked and more tired, which is disastrous when in benzo recovery. My heart was flopping every 15 seconds, so I took 6mg Diazepam and calmed. I still couldn't sleep though.

 

Went to the doctors, void of sleep, and they gave me 7.5mg of Zopiclone. It put me to sleep for about 3 hours only. I visited the doctors non-stop over 5 days due to the insomnia and was prescribed Amiltriptiline (10mg), Hydroxyzine (25mg), Zopiclone (7.5mg), Propranolol (10mg) and Diazepam (10mg) - all in the space of a week. At one point I went three days without sleep and was exhausted and delirious. The doctors said to me, "if you can't sleep then take all the meds you've been prescribed". NONE OF THOSE MEDS MADE A DIFFERENCE. Zopiclone worked early on for a few hours sleep but during my three days awake, I was taking them all at different intervals and would remain wide awake.

 

I am currently on 30mg Mirtazapine a night and 10mg Diazepam but I literally feel like I am not asleep. Ten hours will go by and I feel like I've been conscious the whole time, My girlfriend said I was snoring at one point though. 

 

I mentioned my reduction of Mirtazapine leading up to episode and he has put me up to 45mg, a dosage I was rarely on during my use of Mirtazapine. I've done a lot of internet searching and have diagnosed my self with a thousand different things. During this time I found out about all the horror stories on withdrawing from Mirtazapine. I realise now that I should not have been withdrawing from Mirtazapine until benzo's were long in the past, but I still feel like I don't know the cause. I've been asking questions like:

 

-Could this be anything not related to Diazepam withdrawal or Mirtazapine withdrawal?

-Could Mirtzapine have stopped working?

-Was the insomnia a protracted withdrawal from Benzo's? - i thought less of this one after realizing that reinstating Benzo's never helped with the sleep at all. They've simply kept my anxiety symptoms at bay.

 

It has been two weeks since I got back on 30mg of Mirtazapine and sleep is still the same. I worry the most because without sleep, I will be in a constant panic mode and stopping Benzo's this time would seem impossible. Sleep was the one thing that got me through the withdrawal of Benzo's.

 

Thanks for anyone who read the above, seems like a lot of really genuine and helpful people on this board. I REALLY appreciate any thoughts and input.

 

 

Edited December 23, 2017 by Altostrata
added screen name to title

[Altostrata]

Welcome, JohnnyBoy.

 

Going on and off psychiatric drugs makes our nervous systems sensitive to other drug changes, herbs, and even supplements. It sounds like what happened to you was that, when sensitized by benzo withdrawal, although it was going well, you reduced mirtazapine and triggered mirtazapine withdrawal syndrome, which further sensitized your nervous system.

 

When one's nervous system is hypersensitive in this fashion, pouring more drugs on it can cause a paradoxical reaction. The more you "press down" on the nervous system with benzos, zopiclone, etc., the more it will resist. Hence, insomnia from the combination of diazepam, zopiclone, and mirtazapine.

 

You probably are also still recovering from mirtazapine withdrawal, even though you're back on a full dose of 30mg mirtazapine. It can take time for your nervous system to settle down from the shock of withdrawal.

 

In short, you have withdrawal syndrome and you're taking too many drugs. How long have you been taking diazepam? What time of day do you take it?

 

Do you go to bed at a regular hour?

 

On 12/21/2017 at 11:28 AM, JohnnyBoy said:

My girlfriend said I was snoring at one point though.

 

Seems you might get some periods of light sleep.

[JohnnyBoy]

Hi Alto,

 

Thanks for the welcome. I had learned a lot about withdrawal during my research into Benzo withdrawal but I seemed to have overlooked anything regarding destabilizing the central nervous system. I focused too much on 'withdrawal symptoms' and 'protracted withdrawal symptoms' and became obsessed on being drug free once I realized I was noticing a difference in myself without benzo's.

 

15 hours ago, Altostrata said:

In short, you have withdrawal syndrome and you're taking too many drugs. How long have you been taking diazepam? What time of day do you take it?

 

After 70 days free, back on at 10mg every night before bed. Highest dose I've been on since starting them two years ago because during my meltdown and three day sleep hiatus, 10mg was the dose that eventually but me to sleep, so doctor prescribed that dosage then. So currently, I have been back on 10mg nightly, consistently for around 11-13 days. Wasn't keeping a daily schedule when meltdown began because sleep deprivation left me delirious and was taking too many different prescription drugs in an attempt to cure the insomnia.

 

15 hours ago, Altostrata said:

Do you go to bed at a regular hour?

 

I do not go to bed at an exact time every night but it has consistently been in between 10pm to midnight. Most often it has been in-between 10pm to 11pm. I knew that a regular circadian rhythm would have to be one thing bput back in place. I had been going to bed between the same times for the past year and a half, sleeping until my alarm went off, never awaking during the night except on a few occasions during benzo withdrawal when I would suddenly awaken gasping for air. Apparently a common anxiety symptom.

 

I do think that I've become afraid of going to sleep at night, less so when the night before seemed better, but this is also seems common among people suffering anxiety/sleep problems. Vivid dreams have been unreal, every single night I hve multiple vivid dreams that i can remember so well the next day. Like a high definition dream. A notice that insomnia and abnormal dreams are actually listed as common paradoxical/side effects of Mirtazapine. I've never had them in the two years of taking Mirt, so at the minute I can only assume it's due to the recent reduction in depth. I have been back on 30mg for around two and a half weeks but with the sleep issues, maybe my CNS (and so forth) is taking longer to stabilize?

 

I was taking potassium (200mg daily), omega 3 (500mg epa/dha), and a garlic supplement for the two months leading up to the insomnia. I was attempting to introduce supplements in slowly because I know that throwing throwing the kitchen sink can leave you wondering what supplement is the cause. I don't believe it was them but I've seen you mention supplements a lot in other posts. No caffeine intake but do smoke (electronic - never smoked tobacco) 3mg nicotine for past year. 

 

So, religiously taking:

30mg Mirtazapine nightly

10mg Diazepam nightly

 

Thanks,

JohnnyBoy

[Altostrata]

The first thing you need to do is stop worrying about getting enough sleep. Your worry is adding to your difficulty sleeping.

 

Learning how to meditate is a good way to do this. When you start to worry, you practice your meditation. See these topics

 

Easing your way into meditation for a stressed-out nervous system
 
Mindfulness and Acceptance
 
Good links for anxiety/worry

Inhabiting our bodies in meditation http://wp.me/p5nnb-aSX

Meditation can heal the brain which can heal the mind and body

Mindfulness, Meditation, and Prayer After Brain Injury

Pranayama Breathing for Anxiety and Depression

 

What times of day do you take mirtazapine and diazepam?

[JohnnyBoy]

Not had much relief since this happened over 6 weeks ago. I'm in that stage where most will be familiar with, you're on multiple meds and don't know whether either (or both) are to blame, or whether it's simply psychological or even possibly and underlying illness. I always find that the most obvious reasons tend to always be the culprits.

 

Right now I am thinking that the most logical explanation would be that, with a destabilised CNS, I was withdrawing from Mirtazapine at the time and experienced a common withdrawal symptom (sleep issues) and this triggered panic, which resulted in an increase of cortisol/adrenaline, which had my heart palpitating every ten seconds. This was a huge stressful event and has since caused me to have issues with sleep, worrying about not sleeping enough...quite simply because of the hellish symptoms (mainly heart related) I go through when I haven't slept enough. I know this is due to past/current benzo usage.

 

So, I am currently on Mirtazapine 37.5mg nightly and Diazepam 5mg nightly. I was put up to 45mg by doctors, mainly in an attempt to see if that sorted out the sleep problem. It did not. So I reduced to 37.5mg and I am going to drop back down to 30mg soon and stabalize at that dose (I was on that dose for duration of my 2 years on the drug). Then I will look to stick close to the 10% rule from then onwards.

 

My biggest worry at the minute is wanting to be free from both meds but not really knowing which one to do first. My job is on the line right now, due to my inability to function at the minute, lack of sleep is just drastically heightening all symptoms.

 

My current plan: Withdraw from Mirtazapine, sticking to the 10% rule as closely as possible. Staying on Diazepam until free from Mirtazapine.

 

Does anyone have any other advice or see any issues with plan?

[Staz]

I'm staying on Mirtazapine while tapering off of Diazepam. The simple logic is at 15mg Mirtazapine will help with my sleep and withdrawal from any Benzo causes sleep problems unless it's done extremely slowly or you are lucky. just my point of view.

[JohnnyBoy]

I've done a lot of researching (also known as google searching non-stop) over the past month and have managed to learn a lot more. Still learning all the time about the current situation a lot of us are in. Sometimes I get angry at myself for every taking the meds in the first place and not reading up about the risk but I'm sure we can all relate to that feeling.

 

I done exactly what you're doing Staz. Bloody kick myself now, with the situation I'm in, but I have to remind myself that I now have a much better understanding now i.e. destabilising the CNS, 10% rule etc

 

I successfully withdrew from Diazepam, with the help of Mirtazapine for sleep. I just made the mistake of immediately beginning a withdrawal of Mirtazapine not long after and that backfired big time. Right now I am letting things settle before I begin to reduce my Mirtazapine much slower. Aiming to get from 30mg to 15mg, as slow as needed, and reevaluate things from there.

 

I think the biggest challenge I'm facing is sleep. It makes every symptom magnified when you do not get enough. The GP's immediate response was to "up the dose" of Mirtazapine when all this happened. To "get high levels back in the blood", which never worked, felt as if it went paradoxical at that point.

 

Good luck with your taper! 

[JohnnyBoy]

I went to the doctors today and explained my desire to come of the anti-depressant (Mirtazapine) and told him how slow I wanted to come off them. His first reactions was predictable, 'Why?' - I explained my reason, not wanting to be physically dependant on them, especially for an extended period. The longer people seem to be on them, the more severe the withdrawals can become.

 

His next reaction may be familiar to many, "ok we will knock you down from 30mg to 15mg for 4 weeks and then stop them". No tapering plan, just abrupt jumps, all after being on it for just over two years. I refused and stood firm on taking at my own pace. No point in explaining the 10% idea to many doctors, you just go back home, split the pills and become your own chemist. 

 

Anyway, I've been doing a lot of research over the past month or so, so much that it can be hard to separate pragmatic research and anxious worrying. I'm basically trying to get an overall better understanding of how Mirtazapine works in the body and the most recent thing I'm looking at how mirtazapine may lower cortisol. Does anyone know more on cortisol being lowered during anti-depressant treatment? 

 

My biggest withdrawal symptom when previously trying to withdraw from Mirt was Insomnia, which initially displayed itself as 'adrenaline surges' when trying to get to sleep. I still get them now, 6 weeks later but they are very weak and do not keep my from sleeping now. I also used to wake up many may times through the night, something also linked to high cortisol. Initially I linked the insomnia to Mirtz effects on the H1 histamine receptor. Maybe someone has a better understanding but my thinking was that I became more susceptible to stress as I went from 30mg to 22.5mg and 15mg over the 4/6 week duration. 

 

P.S. i am tapering much slower now, eliminating many stressors but I am just wanting to prepare for withdrawal symptoms as best as I can (even if I don't need them)

[JohnnyBoy]

UPDATE: I'm down to 22.5mg Mirtazapine at the minute. Been on that dose for a few days, today has been a tough day though. Had first panic attack in well over a month. I've had so many since being on benzos, you do tend to be able to control them after so many but you are not right for the rest of the day. I am going to stabilise on 22.5mg for at least four weeks, so the whole of February would be the best way to look at it.

 

As for my other med Diazepam (the benzo), I am going down to 2.5mg (at night) this week, which I will also hold at throughout February also. I am going to hold and re-evaluate where I am in four weeks. Takes my mind of things when giving a month to stabilise and chill out.

 

I've stocked up on various anti-histamine sleep aids, they all effect the H1 receptor, and they are there as a backup. Obviously the theory is that if you make slow cuts and tolerate them, you should have minimal symptoms. I've seen a lot of anecdotal info on people withdrawing from Mirtazapine and have used ant-histamines to reduce symptoms like insomnia, itchiness etc

 

So, I don't see any harm in stocking up and preparing for possible symptoms.

 

 

[Gridley]

JohnnyBoy,

 

You are tapering the Mirtzapine too fast and could wind up with some unpleasant withdrawal symptoms as a result.  At Surviving Antidepressants, it is recommended that a person taper by no more than 10% of their current dose with at least a four week hold in-between decreases.  The 10% taper recommendation is a harm reduction approach to going off psychiatric drugs.  Some people may have to taper at a more conservative rate as they are sensitive to even the smallest drops.  
 

Before you begin tapering what you need to know

What is Withdrawal Syndrome?
Why taper by 10% of my dosage?  
Tips for tapering off Remeron (mirtazapine)

 

Also, at SA we recommend tapering only one drug at a time.  Otherwise, if there's a problem, you won't know which drug taper is causing it. We recommend tapering the activating drug first (in your case, the Mirt) while leaving the sedating drug (Diazepam) in place to help buffer WD.   I see from your Jan. 22 post that your plan was to taper the Mirt and hold on the Diazepam until you were off the Mirt.  My suggestion would be to stick to that plan.
 

Taking multiple psych drugs? Which drug to taper first?

 

Regarding the antihistamines, antihistamines have an effect on your CNS (central nervous system). People who are tapering or are in withdrawal have sensitized nervous systems and often react badly to many medicines.  It would be wise to be cautious about these substances.  For example, start with ½ dose of an antihistamine to see if you get the desired response and fewer side effects.

[JohnnyBoy]

Excellent advice, especially on trying a low dose of a medicine during withdrawal. It is something I have learned, as it can be bad news if it backfires on a full/high dose.

 

I have taken bigger cuts over the past 4-6 weeks, mainly with the Diazepam. This is for two main reasons; 1. Unfortunately I only have a limited supply of Diazepam, if I get to 2.5mg I would be able to hold and reduce at much slower rate and 2. I have only been on a higher dose of Diazepam for around 5-6 weeks, last year my doses had never exceeded 2mg a day at any time. The 10mg and 5mg over the past 4-6 weeks was because I'd hit rock bottom basically, the insomnia I have mentioned etc.

 

In regards to the Diazepam, it just seems that if I stuck to the 10% reduction, I would end up being on such a higher amount than I had ever been before and for such a long time. It just seemed logical for me to adapt that one and get more towards a baseline I had been on before my 70+ day abstinence of them. I hope that one makes sense.

 

I think you are right on the Mirtazapine, a little bit of impatience on my side due to life circumstances but I'm ready to hold on the doses for next four weeks and will keep you updated.

 

Thanks for all your advice, I will slow things down now and update soon

[JohnnyBoy]

It seems you were right Gridley, I've gone two nights without sleep. Insomnia seems to be my only symptom but it's mentally and physically draining, as you probably know. It seems that once I go a couple night without sleep, I get a strong feeling in my chest like my heart speeds up as I'm going into a sleep start. I know it is worsened by sleep deprivation.

 

Right now, I feel like I should just updose back to 30mg and hold there for a while, let the body get used to the dose I'd been on for longest part of treatmen and do a conservative 5% drop to get me started.

 

I need some advice on one thing from someone. I have a habit of taking my Mirtazapine in two doses at the moment, about 10-15 mins apart (when in bed) as it seems to relax me more and I get the sedation from the first bit and then little bit later I get the sedation from the last bit. Do you think this is OK or do you see and issues with this?

 

I can't believe I've been on it for two years and it's now it could possibly take two years to get of it. I'm just stuck between wondering whether it's 'pooped out' or was it my fault for withdrawing from it two quickly end of last year and messing things up. 

[Gridley]

You might consider updosing the Mirt  to 22.5 to start with since your system has made some adjustments since your drop to l5 in December.  If you reinstate at too high a dose you won't get relief.  Give the 22.5 about ten days to take effect.  If you're getting no relief, then you could go up to 30.

 

I see no problem with splitting the Mirt dose 15 minutes apart if that works for you.  The main thing is to be consistent in the time you take the doses and the interval separating them.

 

Yes, the time factor for tapering is hard to wrap your mind around at first. It was for me, then I just sort of settled into it.  What is, is, and there's no rushing it.  Best  just to do your slow taper and focus on the moment.

 

I've had luck with 1 mg Melatonin for sleep.  I would start low, with .5 mg or 1 mg.  Much higher can have a paradoxical effect.

Melatonin for sleep

[JohnnyBoy]

It's been two tough months full of so many extreme lows and a few days of positivity. I would be able to cope fine but as soon as I have a sleepless night it just rocks my confidence and sends me into a pit of depression and anxiety. However, I have come to the realisation that during my many months of research, the same things seem to pop on on various sources; stability.

 

Since I was hit with insomnia for first time in December, I have tried EVERYTHING, except stability. My first attempt at curing the insomnia was to go up to 45mg of Mirtazapine, I have been on 30mg for nearly two years and had probably been on 45mg for one month during that time at most, to go up to 45mg was the advice of the doctor. I stayed for a few days and went back down to 30mg, as their had been no improvement on sleep. After 30mg proved to provide no relieve, I panicked, especially since before I tried to withdraw from Mirt, 30mg had created no issues at all (maybe just the munchies after taking it). So I feared it had 'pooped out' and I began to go slower, I went from something like 30mg to 26.25mg for a week and then to 22.5mg and bam! Insomnia.

 

I think what I have learned is I have not shown any patience, it seems that going nowhere for at least four weeks (or more accurately, until symptom abates or lessons) is better than being eager to get a taper going. I haven't even stayed on 30mg for at least four weeks to see if things improve. So that is my current plan, stabilise on a daily dose for at least 30 days, then review and begin a slow taper (5-10% every four weeks). I have to tell myself that because of the up and down changes over the past 1-2 months, I should not be expecting things to settle until at least four weeks. That is tough to find out but just seems to be the only way things will 'settle'.

[Gridley]

I'll just repeat what you've already realized for yourself--you need stability.  Be aware that it might take longer than 4 weeks at 30mg for you to stabilize.  Let your body tell you when to taper, not a calendar.  Also, when you do begin to taper, remember to hold for four weeks after each month's taper to allow your body to get accustomed to the lower dose.  For example, if you taper 5% on, say, April 1, you would hold until June 1, then taper again.

[JohnnyBoy]

Thanks Gridley, it's easy to get confused when you first realise you are actually very dependant on an AD. Days and weeks don't matter when it comes to the brain, only months and years but I imagine a lot of people make most of their mistakes during this early stage. 

 

When you say you would taper on April 1 and drop again June 1, that would be 8 weeks. Is their something more I am missing, as I would have dropped 5% again on May 1. I always assumed a 5% taper would be a 5% reduction EVERY 4 weeks. Obviously I am going to take as long as is needed to stabalize on 30mg, then I would begin a 5-10% reduction every 4-6 weeks.

[Gridley]

It's 5% every month plus a 4-week hold to stabilize, then another 5%, etc. 

         

So, yes, it is 8 weeks between decreases.

 

Your attitude about taking as long as necessary is very good and will pay off for you.         

 

[Gridley]

Johnnyboy,

 

I checked with the other mods, so let me amend what I advised you.  It's every four weeks if your symptoms are stable at the end of that time.  By stable, I don't mean you have no symptoms but there no no wild swings in symptoms.  If you haven't stabilized, hold until you do.  If you have, it's okay to go ahead with your next taper.

[JohnnyBoy]

Thanks Gridley. I did think that because a lot of people have had success doing it that way but what you advise seems still seems very sensible, it would just take longer. The key seems to be to go as slow as your body needs, better to not rock the boat. Taking more time does let you know exactly what 'stable' is, so when you do make the first few cuts (say 5%) you can get an idea of things overall. 

 

Slow and stable is my new mantra. A solid taper begins with a stable foundation. I will be sure to come back and update.

[Hibari]

HI Johnny Boy,

 

I understand your Remeron journey and the importance of stabilizing.  There were times during my Remeron taper where I felt I couldn't get it right and jumped around a bit on my tapering.  There were also certain doses that I found difficult to get under, 30mgs and then 15mgs.  I had to hold a bit longer on some doses and then shorter on others. 

 

Your instinct to hold is a good one-things need to settle down to the best of your ability and then you can start again.   As Gridley said, it's not that things are perfect when you stabilize but more that you don't feel so up and down. 

 

There are many links on this site about sleep and insomnia.  It's a horrible symptom to deal with but many members offer their perspective on how to relax as best they can during this time.

 

Take care. 

[Santino]

Hi JohnnyBoy

Eventhough it seems tough i believe you are doing quite well. You have been on those meds for quite some time and as i see... you have not been very stable with the doses with a lot of changes in between. It might be that some times the sleepless night are directly related to the WD effect and not anything natural with you. Taking 45Mg in case you want sleep is not good as as the most sedating dose for MIrtazapine is 7.5MG 15MG and above doses are normally activating and not good for the sleep.

Anyway do not forget the diazepam factor it is a pitty you have stopped it and you have started again after 70 days..!!! :-( When i started MIrtazapine i did a rapid taper of my benzo at that time and had a lot of non sleepy nights or early wake ups with a lot of anxiety and adrenaline rashes. I swear from the way you describe your symptoms that you can not take a nap in the afternoon currently. When i was at your stage i would just drift off and as soon as that would happen i would have a full shake up from the adrenaline that would run like a train through my body. A non stop feeling of terror. But if you keep stable at your dose and after you feel the stability start to taper slowly that would be good.

All the best my friend and just convince yourselfe this is doable. I am 2 months free of Mirt already and just taking some magnesium, vitd, and omega 3 suplements. Not yet at the success story level but i sense that moment is coming... ;-)
 

[samanthaelizabeth]

On 2/14/2018 at 9:44 AM, JohnnyBoy said:

Thanks Gridley. I did think that because a lot of people have had success doing it that way but what you advise seems still seems very sensible, it would just take longer. The key seems to be to go as slow as your body needs, better to not rock the boat. Taking more time does let you know exactly what 'stable' is, so when you do make the first few cuts (say 5%) you can get an idea of things overall. 

 

Slow and stable is my new mantra. A solid taper begins with a stable foundation. I will be sure to come back and update.

Hi JB - You can do this and you will be okay.  I have previously tapered off of Mirt (twice)  (should never have gotten back on it). You do need to do this very, very slowly.  Listen to your body and listen to the MODS on this site.  Believe me when I tell you that they know way more than the "fake doctors" do that prescribe them.  

 

Sam

[JohnnyBoy]

Thank you for your kind words samanthaelziabeth, santino and hibari.

 

I'm not doing great. Well, I'm rock bottom again. I told myself I was not to touch my Mirtazapine 30mg dose AT ALL for 30 days. I wasn't even planning on doing anything at 30 days except review things but I set a date of the 16th March, which would be 30 days of a stable dose. This past week, since Sunday, I have been averaging about 1 hour of sleep. I'm done with all the sleep advice people are giving me, at this point it's clearly something out of sync in my brain. No amount of relaxing makes the hours of sleep improve. The thing is, I really want to taper the Mirt at 5% every 4-6 weeks when ready but right now, I cannot even go another week with this kind of sleep. It's virtually sleepless, so I'm questioning the point of staying in Mirt, it's that bad!

 

It just doesn't seem right, I see people reinstate Mirt and begin to sleep not long after. My sleep is getting worse. Need some advice.

[Santino]

HI JohnnyBoy....

In case your problem is sleep id does not mean that higher doses of Mirt would do the job better. The best doses of Mirt for sleep are 0.5 and max 15 MG. At 30MG Mirt is too activating as it more an antidepressant than a antihistamine sleeping pill. Anyway you are also taking diazepam i guess from your signature. It might be that you are facing problems with the dose but i can not really say why. 
It might be that you might have also effects from that as well. Now in order to know whether the culprit is Mirt or Diazepam... you can just increase diazepam to 6mg and see. If your sleep improves most probably you are having effects from the diazepam and than you keep mirt stable and start tapering the benzo first. I did it that way. Tapered first the benzo and then continued with MIrt. Benzo fast tapering was terrible but i made it... It can be done...

In case you decide to be on MIRT if that is good for you than that is your choice and you have all the freedom to do that... For me that was not a good choice so i tapered down and since 6th of December am done with it. Different organisms have different copping mechanisms buddy.

During all my taper i would take magnesium and vit C as well as eating cherries or Banana before sleep for the natural melatonin. On the very bad nights i would take a pot of strong chamomile and linden tea which would do the trick buddy. That is how i surveived during my worss time of tapering.

[JohnnyBoy]

4 hours ago, Santino said:

HI JohnnyBoy....

In case your problem is sleep id does not mean that higher doses of Mirt would do the job better. The best doses of Mirt for sleep are 0.5 and max 15 MG. At 30MG Mirt is too activating as it more an antidepressant than a antihistamine sleeping pill. Anyway you are also taking diazepam i guess from your signature. It might be that you are facing problems with the dose but i can not really say why. 
It might be that you might have also effects from that as well. Now in order to know whether the culprit is Mirt or Diazepam... you can just increase diazepam to 6mg and see. If your sleep improves most probably you are having effects from the diazepam and than you keep mirt stable and start tapering the benzo first. I did it that way. Tapered first the benzo and then continued with MIrt. Benzo fast tapering was terrible but i made it... It can be done...

In case you decide to be on MIRT if that is good for you than that is your choice and you have all the freedom to do that... For me that was not a good choice so i tapered down and since 6th of December am done with it. Different organisms have different copping mechanisms buddy.

During all my taper i would take magnesium and vit C as well as eating cherries or Banana before sleep for the natural melatonin. On the very bad nights i would take a pot of strong chamomile and linden tea which would do the trick buddy. That is how i surveived during my worss time of tapering.

 

Hi Santino

 

The reason I went back on 30mg was because I was sleeping fine on it originally and it was the dose I withdrew from (to 15mg). So I went back onto 30mg. I did not know everything I know now. It was the logical move back then. My insomnia only shown when I withdrew from Mirt, never had any sleep issues (not that I was conscious of) until I reached 15mg. I was feeling great being free from benzos, I was getting better every week to be honest. I know I can never say it wasn't PAWS from benzos but that is not the most logical explanation. People keep telling me that 30mg is 'activating' and it's just another doubt to give myself. Do I continue to stabalise on 30mg? Do I begin withdrawing because it's too activating? Well, like I said, my insomnia shown at 15mg, so I wouldn't be too hopeful of a taper solving my sleep issues  I did take 15mg when going to sleep last night and fell alseep for one hour before waking up again, so I took 15mg when waking. I did that test just to see if the 'activation' of Mirt is related to each nightly dose. It made no difference but maybe the 'activation' is related to the build up of Mirt in the system. I dunno 

 

There is always so many questions and the wrong move leaves me lost. I'm still going to keep holding, if I can that is, because I will undo all the work so far and will never know if I go forth and begin withdrawing. 

 

And if I was to take 10mg Diazepam tonight, I might get a few more hours sleep but even then I don't think that answers the question to as what the problem is. Diazepam at that dosage is used for sleep and could just be fighting the Mirt withdrawals I'm still feeling. 

 

Lost and feeling hopeless. Just going to keep holding 30mg Mirt for now i think. No matter what I try for sleep this week it has made no difference. I think someone said it's like throwing a cup of water at the sun. That's how it always feels.

 

 

[JohnnyBoy]

I'm sleeping again folks! I just wanted to pop in and update people because I feel like if someone reads my thread then it will give them hope. It's been about three weeks now and I'm more or less sleeping normal again. I go to bed and get my full quota.

 

I've been reducing my Diazepam quite quickly as well and my sleep has only got better, so the hold of the Mirt has been the biggest breakthrough. It was on this site where I fully understood the idea of 'holding'.

 

Hope everyone is well. 

[PH1]

JB,

 

That is great news on your sleep returning!   How are you doing now?

This is my second time on Mirtazapine and am taking it more slowly this time and my sleep is not being too affected by the slower taper.

 

We are with you on this!